Via Garibaldi 8 Posted May 18, 2012 Share #601 Posted May 18, 2012 Well, it's necessary. The comination of the B2 & 100 will save buses on the road, and overall, the new B30 & 31 don't have as much service as before overall (about 1-2 buses less to save some money.), though there are some short turns at Kings Highway in both directions. Cutting back the B82 will improve the reliability and cost of the Kings Highway routes overall, and the money that will be saved can be put into new routes. Overall, the will lose in the end, but since connections & reliability will improve, most likely, ridership will increase. lol... Nice way to sum things up... Just what the "likes" to hear... Lose money=NO. They like "cost neutral"... How? Like other routes, there would be specific school trippers for students only, and regular buses for the common folk. This way, even though they'll be some students on the regular trips, they'll be generally segregated. Too much service... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
checkmatechamp13 Posted May 18, 2012 Share #602 Posted May 18, 2012 This seems like a lot of merging and extending of routes which the could argue could cost quite a bit to fund... I hope you kept that in mind because that's the first thing they would argue. BrooklynBus and I were discussing this very issue last night with the B4. You could redo the whole system and not have it cost extra if you're smart about it. Now of course, knowing the way the MTA does things, they'd probably spend millions of dollars on a study and then talk about how that costs money. In rebuttal to that B32 comment, it's not just for Mill Basin riders, it's for school kids along Kings Highway and a supplemental feeder for East Flatbush & Western Canarsie. About making the system more grid like: When more routes are added later, you'll noticed a grid like system forming. Rememer, the map is still in progress and subject to change. If you have suggestions, I am open. Only S Brooklyn routes though, for this map. The thing is that Kings Highway isn't a direct east-west or north-south street, so it's just an outlier in the grid. And aside from that, there's no need for a bus running along 56th Street in Flatlands. Besides the fact that it's a residential street, it's very close to the B46 and B47, both of which are much more frequent. If you want to help riders out in that area, just add some more service to the B47 (the B46 obviously already runs frequently). A route down East 56th Street would get very low ridership. Along Kings Highway, it's a wider street, but there's really no reason to go out of your way to serve it. I mean, it's still right in between the B46 and B47. In a grid system, the buses are usually spaced out every 1/2 mile, and that's exactly the way it is in that area. And aside from that, you're addressing a basically nonexistant gap between Utica & Ralph (since that's basically the way the routes should be) and yet you still have a huge gap in the Avenue J area that's been unaddressed. (BrooklynBus suggested a B11 extension in his map) How? Like other routes, there would be specific school trippers for students only, and regular buses for the common folk. This way, even though they'll be some students on the regular trips, they'll be generally segregated. I don't see what your point is. I don't think he was complaining about schoolkids and regular people being on the same bus. I think he was just mentioning the low ridership of the S54. I remember on a recent trip on the S54, there was only 1 person on the bus before it reached Susan Wagner HS, and then only 2 people got on along Manor Road, but there were like 10 students on the bus. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Threxx Posted May 18, 2012 Share #603 Posted May 18, 2012 (edited) The thing is that Kings Highway isn't a direct east-west or north-south street, so it's just an outlier in the grid. And aside from that, there's no need for a bus running along 56th Street in Flatlands. Besides the fact that it's a residential street, it's very close to the B46 and B47, both of which are much more frequent. If you want to help riders out in that area, just add some more service to the B47 (the B46 obviously already runs frequently). A route down East 56th Street would get very low ridership. Along Kings Highway, it's a wider street, but there's really no reason to go out of your way to serve it. I mean, it's still right in between the B46 and B47. In a grid system, the buses are usually spaced out every 1/2 mile, and that's exactly the way it is in that area. And aside from that, you're addressing a basically nonexistant gap between Utica & Ralph (since that's basically the way the routes should be) and yet you still have a huge gap in the Avenue J area that's been unaddressed. (BrooklynBus suggested a B11 extension in his map) The B32 is a weekday only, maybe even rush hour only route with 15 minute headways. We won't be running empty buses. As for the Avenue J gap, I've looked into it, and this is what I found: I have a new, long B50 route replacing bus service on Ocean Avenue, so the B49 was left without a southern terminus. I extended the B49 along the Bergen Beach branch of the B41, but the question of where to send the extra B41 buses was in my mind. I have decided to leave the B11 where it is, and extend the B49 along Bedford Avenue & Avenue J to Bergen Beach @ Bergen Avenue & Avenue X. Edited May 18, 2012 by ThrexxBus 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B35 via Church Posted May 18, 2012 Share #604 Posted May 18, 2012 Guys, you aren't reading the map properly. Take another look: http://maps.google.c....075439,0.12291 I'm going to say this. The B31 & B2, aka B30 are running along Kings Highway to replace the B82. I'll add that to the description. In rebuttal to that B32 comment, it's not just for Mill Basin riders, it's for school kids along Kings Highway and a supplemental feeder for East Flatbush & Western Canarsie. About making the system more grid like: When more routes are added later, you'll noticed a grid like system forming. Rememer, the map is still in progress and subject to change. If you have suggestions, I am open. Only S Brooklyn routes though, for this map. The thing is that Kings Highway isn't a direct east-west or north-south street, so it's just an outlier in the grid. And aside from that, there's no need for a bus running along 56th Street in Flatlands. Besides the fact that it's a residential street, it's very close to the B46 and B47, both of which are much more frequent. If you want to help riders out in that area, just add some more service to the B47 (the B46 obviously already runs frequently). A route down East 56th Street would get very low ridership. Along Kings Highway, it's a wider street, but there's really no reason to go out of your way to serve it. I mean, it's still right in between the B46 and B47. In a grid system, the buses are usually spaced out every 1/2 mile, and that's exactly the way it is in that area. Pretty much sums up what I think of that B32 or whatever.... A route running along two dead areas (kings hwy + E 56th st) simply wont garner ridership.... If that's the case, you're better off keeping the B7 as is (meaning, towards Midwood), than to have a route run down kings hwy towards Mill Basin..... Yeah this B32 idea fills a void, but it's all for naught - what good is it if won't end up being useful to much of anyone (especially on the more southern portion of the route).... I mean, it completely avoids kings plaza (and the bus connections on the flatbush side on top of it).... At best, the route serves as a supplement to the B47; the noticable benefit it has over the 47 is that this B32 goes to mill basin & the 47 does not.... B47 riders aren't clamoring to go to mill basin, so that benefit is pretty much nullified..... Anywhere within Mill Basin & Flatlands, they're not gonna make their way to the 3 if they want the IRT when the junction is closer....... Veterans av B41's aren't near as empty as they used to be..... In any event, the point where I can see this B32 getting the most usage is b/w Rutland rd subway & kings hwy/Av D (at best) - which is a little less than half the route.... But that usage won't be enough to justify running a bus b/w sutter/rutland & mill basin, regardless if it's weekdays only.... And as Via stated, simply put, there is no need for two local routes in Mill Basin - They're content w/ the current B100 & the BM1..... Even if the current B7 does "borrow" riders from the B82 along the portion of kings hwy that it does, You'll find far more people trying to make their way to commercial kings hwy, as well as the brighton line in that specific area..... compared to sending it along E 56th in flatlands, to/from Mill Basin..... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrooklynBus Posted May 19, 2012 Share #605 Posted May 19, 2012 Regarding Threxx's ideas for Mill Basin, giving Mill Basin 2 routes is not for them to go to the IRT at Sutter Avenue Station. It is to give them a choice of an east west route and a north south route. That is the way you maximize connections to the rest of the borough with two buses. As I said before, if it doesn't add buses to Ralph Avenue, it could work well. I don't like replacing the B82 with the B31 because you lose connections with the B46 and B47. That's why I sent it up 65th Street and and combined the B82 with the B2 because it maintained those connections. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
checkmatechamp13 Posted May 19, 2012 Share #606 Posted May 19, 2012 Regarding Threxx's ideas for Mill Basin, giving Mill Basin 2 routes is not for them to go to the IRT at Sutter Avenue Station. It is to give them a choice of an east west route and a north south route. That is the way you maximize connections to the rest of the borough with two buses. As I said before, if it doesn't add buses to Ralph Avenue, it could work well. True, but the thing is that it's at the expense of Ralph Avenue riders: I'm sure more of them are heading to Kings Plaza compared to those heading to Mill Basin. I guess if you want north-south service, one way might be to have it take the B100 route to Avenue U & Mill Avenue, then take Ralph Avenue to Avenue K, Avenue K to Nostrand Avenue, and then terminate by the Junction. Or maybe have it supplement the B44 local somehow by going up NY Avenue. Either that, or just leave it as is. If they want to get somewhere further north in Brooklyn, the B100 riders could always transfer to a north-south route and then walk a few extra blocks from the bus stop to their destination. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B35 via Church Posted May 19, 2012 Share #607 Posted May 19, 2012 Regarding Threxx's ideas for Mill Basin, giving Mill Basin 2 routes is not for them to go to the IRT at Sutter Avenue Station. It is to give them a choice of an east west route and a north south route. That is the way you maximize connections to the rest of the borough with two buses. As I said before, if it doesn't add buses to Ralph Avenue, it could work well. Maximize connections with the rest of the borough by sending unwarranted excessive services to arbitrary places .. yeah, I'm sure that would be the result of that..... Maybe buses should run from gerritsen beach, across avenue w, and up bedford - because after all, that would maximize connections for gerritsen beach with the rest of the borough.... Unbelievable..... I thought ppl. over there on SC were exaggerating.... seems as if you really do want routes running all over the place..... Better off adding more buses during the rush hour to the 47, than to have a whole new route like that 32 created.... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qjtransitmaster Posted May 19, 2012 Share #608 Posted May 19, 2012 B7 to canarsie B/2 merger seriously both very bad ideas cmon man its called B17 next I take a break to see this crap cmon man 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qjtransitmaster Posted May 19, 2012 Share #609 Posted May 19, 2012 And you ppl have the nerve to call my routes excessive seriously B35 has a point. I try to serve as many places with as little resources as possible even speed up service a bit to cut down costs and duplication. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Threxx Posted May 19, 2012 Share #610 Posted May 19, 2012 (edited) Maximize connections with the rest of the borough by sending unwarranted excessive services to arbitrary places .. yeah, I'm sure that would be the result of that..... Maybe buses should run from gerritsen beach, across avenue w, and up bedford - because after all, that would maximize connections for gerritsen beach with the rest of the borough.... Unbelievable..... I thought ppl. over there on SC were exaggerating.... seems as if you really do want routes running all over the place..... Better off adding more buses during the rush hour to the 47, than to have a whole new route like that 32 created.... Everyone who says that the B32 will fail are being quite narrow-minded. The B32 will have the following frequencies: AM & PM Rush: Every 20 minutes. Midays: Every 30-45 minutes. Evenings: Every 30 minutes It barely adds any buses to the north-south corridor b/w Utica & Ralph, and gives some choices for Mill Basin riders while not leaving Kings Higway riders without anything. http://maps.google.c....012836,0.01929 The route has been edited to run to Kings Plaza. Edited May 19, 2012 by ThrexxBus 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrooklynBus Posted May 19, 2012 Share #611 Posted May 19, 2012 I've been considering what Checkmate and B35 via Church have been saying and I think they are correct. To use half the B47 service to serve Mill Basin would do a disservice to Kings Plaza riders. And to add a little more service as you suggest, Threxx is not that great of an idea either with the service levels you would be ending up with. I don't think Mill Basin riders would be willing to wait 20 or 30 minutes for a bus when they probably could get where they want to go with two buses using the B100. They certainly would not want to go to the Sutter Avenue station. They only places your route would increase access by two buses (and it's a considerable area) would be to areas west of the Brighton line and east of Ralph Avenue. It may even be more than half of Brooklyn which is why I initially liked your idea. The question you have to ask yourself is if that access is worth reducing access to Kings Plaza as I suggested or woud it attract enough riders at the headways you are proposing by adding more buses. If Mill Basin did not ave a high car ownership (probably the highest in all of Brooklyn) I would say there would be demand. But realistically I don't think you would get more than two or three per bus until it left Mill Basin. It woud also be a very hard sell to the MTA. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Threxx Posted May 19, 2012 Share #612 Posted May 19, 2012 I've been considering what Checkmate and B35 via Church have been saying and I think they are correct. To use half the B47 service to serve Mill Basin would do a disservice to Kings Plaza riders. And to add a little more service as you suggest, Threxx is not that great of an idea either with the service levels you would be ending up with. I don't think Mill Basin riders would be willing to wait 20 or 30 minutes for a bus when they probably could get where they want to go with two buses using the B100. They certainly would not want to go to the Sutter Avenue station. They only places your route would increase access by two buses (and it's a considerable area) would be to areas west of the Brighton line and east of Ralph Avenue. It may even be more than half of Brooklyn which is why I initially liked your idea. The question you have to ask yourself is if that access is worth reducing access to Kings Plaza as I suggested or woud it attract enough riders at the headways you are proposing by adding more buses. If Mill Basin did not ave a high car ownership (probably the highest in all of Brooklyn) I would say there would be demand. But realistically I don't think you would get more than two or three per bus until it left Mill Basin. It woud also be a very hard sell to the MTA. Did you check my last post? I rerouted it to Kings Plaza for bus connections. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
checkmatechamp13 Posted May 19, 2012 Share #613 Posted May 19, 2012 B7 to canarsie B/2 merger seriously both very bad ideas cmon man its called B17 next I take a break to see this crap cmon man The B2/B7 merger we all agreed was a bad idea. And you obviously ignored everything B35 said regarding his logic for sending the B7 to Canarsie. It barely adds any buses to the north-south corridor b/w Utica & Ralph, and gives some choices for Mill Basin riders while not leaving Kings Higway riders without anything. http://maps.google.c....012836,0.01929 The route has been edited to run to Kings Plaza. First of all, why are you keeping it along East 56th Street? That means it's literally only going to be for Mill Basin riders because anybody in that whole Georgetown/Flatlands/East Flatbush area are going to continue doing what they're doing now, which is walking to the B46 or B47. Nobody's going to wait 30 minutes for a bus when the B46 is 6 blocks away (and despite the unreliability of the B47, I'm sure people would prefer that to a route along East 56th Street) Second of all, you're not even having it serve Mill Basin. If you're going to have it travel via Avenue U and serve Kings Plaza, then the closest access point is Avenue U & Mill Avenue, which is where riders can pick up the B47 anyway. No matter which way you slice it, the route's not needed. Whatever riders are headed to points not along the B100 (or along routes that the B100 doesn't connect to) are going to have to continue walking over to the B3 and B47. I mean, in isolated areas like that, there's often only demand for one route. Gerritsen Beach only has the B31, Howard Beach only has the Q11, etc. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B35 via Church Posted May 20, 2012 Share #614 Posted May 20, 2012 (edited) Everyone who says that the B32 will fail are being quite narrow-minded. Instead of sweeping everyone with the broad brush of narrow mindedness that doesn't agree with this particular idea, how about you convey/present your idea a little better & speak on your thought processes behind it... Why won't it fail? Tell us..... Instead of just posting these ideas & somehow expecting people to see things how you see it..... I mean, you say you agree with that B7 to canarsie bit..... You agree that the usage b/w flatbush & church (not inclusive) along kings hwy is poor.... But then you wanna put a route BACK on some of that part of kings hwy you agree with moving the B7 from, and have it pan down to an area that's even more car-centric/has a lesser chance of a bus route being utilized to warrant running such a service than the current B7.... Consistency dude, consistency..... After I sat up there & throughly explained that poor usage along that part of kings hwy is not a matter of wanting demand to another area - but the fact that there are simply better transportation options in the area that they consider..... Sure enough, you don't have to agree with that assessment - but realize doing so would make your siding of that B7 to canarsie idea, hypocritical.... Having buses serve East 56th st. part of it all, I'm not addressing anymore.... B7 to canarsie B/2 merger seriously both very bad ideas cmon man its called B17 next I take a break to see this crap cmon man Are you serious..... Of all the people to want to throw stones at glass houses..... I've more than done my part to the contrary to what I'm about to ask you..... Now..... Persuade me that the B7 to canarsie is a bad idea.... Persuade me that the B17 service as is, untinkered with, is sufficient. Better yet, to hell with me.... Try to sell that notion to Canarsie residents that use the 17 on the daily... Lmao..... Guess you haven't realized riders have been fed up with that route for quite some time now.... They take it to/from utica/eastern pkwy b/c they really have no direct choice to get to "residential" Canarsie from the IRT (by that I mean, south of flatlands)..... Commuting via the is not convenient for every Canarsie resident - besides, how many more people can you really try to cram on that line (and on top of that, they still gotta end up taking the B42)..... Same deal w/ the B103 to the IRT 2/5 (why do you think the 103 gets more usage w/i the Paedergats, over that particular current B17 branch - which actually serves the L)..... not just coincidences, fam..... I can almost guarantee Canarsie riders would appreciate quicker access to the at saratoga, than current kings hwy residents that live south of church along the B7 do...... No matter which way you slice it, the route's not needed. Whatever riders are headed to points not along the B100 (or along routes that the B100 doesn't connect to) are going to have to continue walking over to the B3 and B47. I mean, in isolated areas like that, there's often only demand for one route. Don't know how many times that basic point has to be made.... ...and to sit up there and launch an ad-hominem attack on us because we realize what he's outright refusing to consider.... Having buses moved to kings plz., still taking that core routing (via kings hwy, via east 56th), doesn't nullify how ill-advised the core routing is to begin with..... Edited May 20, 2012 by B35 via Church 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qjtransitmaster Posted May 20, 2012 Share #615 Posted May 20, 2012 improve B17 and modify it add LTD service so B7 wont need to go to canarsie if you want to stimulate B7 send it to broadway jct for J and A service 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Threxx Posted May 20, 2012 Share #616 Posted May 20, 2012 Are you serious..... Of all the people to want to throw stones at glass houses..... I've more than done my part to the contrary to what I'm about to ask you..... Now..... Persuade me that the B7 to canarsie is a bad idea.... Persuade me that the B17 service as is, untinkered with, is sufficient. Better yet, to hell with me.... Try to sell that notion to Canarsie residents that use the 17 on the daily... Lmao..... Guess you haven't realized riders have been fed up with that route for quite some time now.... They take it to/from utica/eastern pkwy b/c they really have no direct choice to get to "residential" Canarsie from the IRT (by that I mean, south of flatlands)..... Commuting via the is not convenient for every Canarsie resident - besides, how many more people can you really try to cram on that line (and on top of that, they still gotta end up taking the B42)..... Same deal w/ the B103 to the IRT 2/5 (why do you think the 103 gets more usage w/i the Paedergats, over that particular current B17 branch - which actually serves the L)..... not just coincidences, fam..... I can almost guarantee Canarsie riders would appreciate quicker access to the at saratoga, than current kings hwy residents that live south of church along the B7 do...... Man, just ignore the thing that posted that and the post. It's not worth stooping down... As for the B32, I'm removing it. The B47 will get LTD service, and some school trippers will service the schools on Kings Highway. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Threxx Posted May 20, 2012 Share #617 Posted May 20, 2012 (edited) Just for good measure, here are some changes: http://maps.google.c...037713,0.077162 + Added B35's B7 idea. + Added re-routed B49. + Added new B50. - Removed B32. Here is a second link, i've been having trouble with the B49 & 50, they may or may not show up. http://g.co/maps/nrgt9 Edited May 20, 2012 by ThrexxBus 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
checkmatechamp13 Posted May 20, 2012 Share #618 Posted May 20, 2012 I think the current B17 goes further south within the Paerdegats than the B7 would. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Threxx Posted May 20, 2012 Share #619 Posted May 20, 2012 I think the current B17 goes further south within the Paerdegats than the B7 would. Just one block. It was easier to map that way. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B35 via Church Posted May 20, 2012 Share #620 Posted May 20, 2012 ....and some school trippers will service the schools on Kings Highway. Now you're thinking, fam. You may be onto something with school trippers; IMO A Much better alternative than your *former* B32..... I never really thought much about it until you mentioned it, but I wonder if they could throw maybe one or two trippers on the B35 around meyer levin JHS / tilden HS..... Nevermind how they'd perform without the B7 on kings hwy - I think it's a very good idea, present-date (meaning, with the current B7 on kings hwy)...... Efficiency-wise, I think they'd (B35 trippers) be more useful to more riders than those EB B35's they got stopping dead @ kings hwy during the PM rush..... I think the current B17 goes further south within the Paerdegats than the B7 would. Sure does. Just one block. It was easier to map that way. That's not what he's getting at.... Checkmate is right.... the paerdegat B17's run down E. 80th st to Av. N.... From what I depict, more of the usage on that branch is down there is on E 80th st, moreso than on Av L.... IMO, Stopping buses at E 80th/Av L would only have more ppl. south of Av L making their way onto 103's..... because I can assure you aint goin get many ppl. walking from Av M (and especially N) to Av L.... There's no harm in sending buses down to Av N. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Threxx Posted May 20, 2012 Share #621 Posted May 20, 2012 (edited) That's not what he's getting at.... Checkmate is right.... the paerdegat B17's run down E. 80th st to Av. N.... From what I depict, more of the usage on that branch is down there is on E 80th st, moreso than on Av L.... IMO, Stopping buses at E 80th/Av L would only have more ppl. south of Av L making their way onto 103's..... because I can assure you aint goin get many ppl. walking from Av M (and especially N) to Av L... There's no harm in sending buses down to Av N. Oh, ok, I just looked at it, that's a glitch, it should go all the way down to Seaview Avenue. I fixed it so it looked a little bit better, but there is still a gap in the route. Edited May 20, 2012 by ThrexxBus 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B35 via Church Posted May 21, 2012 Share #622 Posted May 21, 2012 ^^ Alright, no problem. There's a few people now that's reporting these glitches in the google maps.... glad I abandoned using them. Making custom maps in google started out as a good thing, but ppl. across the world done abused the feature...... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Threxx Posted May 21, 2012 Share #623 Posted May 21, 2012 Anyway, because of some problems, I've decided to share a different map that shows the B49 & B50. No link yet, though... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NY1635 Posted May 21, 2012 Share #624 Posted May 21, 2012 Why send the B81 down Linden Blvd between Van Siclen Avenue and Bank Street? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Threxx Posted May 21, 2012 Share #625 Posted May 21, 2012 (edited) Why send the B81 down Linden Blvd between Van Siclen Avenue and Bank Street? Do you have a better route to get from Foster to Gateway? It was the only street I could use! (See, this is why some people have to say BS about trying to increase post counts...) Edited May 21, 2012 by ThrexxBus 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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