3rd Rail Compatability LIRR/MNRR - would side mounting the 3rd rail solve the problem?

[Truckie]

It is not their choice to make - it is the property of the PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF NEW YORK.

 

I said it before and I'll say it again.  THE PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF NEW YORK, or the governor, legislature, senate or courts DO NOT HAVE A SAY IN IT!!!!!!  The equipment is owned by the state.  Operations are financed in part by the state.  But the actual operations as far as the movement of trains have to go through the FRA.  The state has absolutely no say in the day to day operations regarding rules.

 

If it was all up to the state then maybe we wouldn't be forced to install PTC on all the equipment.  But it's not up to the state.

[Truckie]

Perhaps an LIRR or MNRR employee can correct me if I've oversimplified the details. Carry on.

 

No you're correct.  Some people think a railroad is a railroad but have no clue what's involved to run it. 

 

Just the MTA trying to take over the human resources of the two railroads turned out to be a debacle that still isn't right 3 years later.  Since then, some of the functions have ended back in house as that's how well the merge didn't work.

 

Should be some snowballs chance in hell that MNRR and LIRR merged, it would be an operational cluster.  I for see numerous violations, numerous fines for the company and numerous employees being put out of service.

 

Heck, the state has yet to combine the NYS Dept of Transportation and the Thruway Authority and that would be easy in nature compared to operational details the state has no say in.

[Trainmaster5]

It is not their choice to make - it is the property of the PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF NEW YORK.

The is a New York State public benefit authority which operates transit service(s) in the downstate region . AFAIK MNRR also uses rolling stock purchased by the state of Connecticut and that rolling stock and tracks do not belong to the NYS taxpayers. NYS does not own the tracks it's trains run on within the state of New Jersey, either. The is basically an umbrella operator of transit systems. See LI Bus or check out the body of an R62 or was it R62A NYCT subway car which were purchased by the PA and leased to the NYCTA as noted on the car body itself. Now tell Nassau County or the Port Authority that the or the people of New York State owned those buses or train cars when the fleets were purchased. The is not some omnipotent organization even if it's emblem is plastered across the metro area. Case closed. Now back to third rail compatibility.

[realizm]

The 3rd rail for top running shoes is mounted to the bracket via the bottom of the 3rd rail.

 

The 3rd rail for bottom running shoes is mounted to the bracket via the top of the 3rd rail.

 

I am asking if instead of mounting the 3rd rail from the top, shown here:

 

or having bottom mounting, shown here:

 

Note the green box, it is the bottom mounting.

 

I propose mounting the 3rd rail from outside (side not facing the track) onto a bracket similiar to the method used to mount bottom running 3rd rail.

 

Quick opinion from a straphanger perspective - It works for SEPTA apparently with the similar system it has (I know it's mass transit, not railroad.) That is: If we had new trains with shoes to accomidate this or modified rail shoes on current rolling stock to utilize it...... And funds. It could work in theory but there's the never ending problem with financing such a change which I'm sure the LIRR is reluctant to even try. That's some things to consider as some are saying here.

[Kamen Rider]

It is not their choice to make - it is the property of the PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF NEW YORK.

No, infact, it isn't.

 

Metro North's East of Hudson lines within NYS are owned by Midtown Ventuers LTD, who bought them from American Premuim Underwriters, the corporate sucessor to Penn Central. The MTA has a lease on them until 2275, nothing more, they techincly don't even own Grand Central. CDOT owns and cofunds the NH line within it's borders, with the MTA as a contracted operator. the only section of Metro-North the actually titled to the MTA and the State is the New Haven from Woodhaven Junction to the New York State Border.

 

On the West side, the Pascack's tracks are owned by NJ Transit, and the Port Jervis is titled to Norfolk Southern, and leased to the MTA north of Suffern (Suffren station is NJ Transit owned).

 

 

In function, the LIRR is owned by the state, but it's still under it's orginal charter 1834 as a for-profit corporation, it's only a Commuter railroad, as we understand them, in a defacto sense. It's even still considered a Class 2 railroad by the government, the only commuter line in the "classes". The State could one day devist itself of the railroad by simply selling it's shares, which would go back to being a public corporation (Public corporations are ones that are traded on the common market. Disney is public, Facebook is plubic. The MTA, LIRR and such are techincly PRIVATE corporations, thier shares are not traded in such a way that anyone can buy them, or in this specific case, not traded at all.)

 

 

 

 

And it's not just the FRA and okying it, it's the federal governemt as a whole that has a say in ALL corporate mergers. You'd have to get the ok from two USDOT subdivisons, The FRA and the Surface Transportation board and also the justice department (required under the anti-trust act), not to mention the other stake holders in the mess (I'm just trying to drive this point home, this isn't a "wave a magic wand and it's done" routine, it could take YEARS even if everyone was ok with it). I'd suggest you reasearch the SPSF, the Souther Pacific Santa Fe. The two railroads were so sure they'd become one railroad, they started to repaint thier equipment. Then the Feds ruled "NO" and SPSF came to mean "Shouldn't Paint So Fast".

[imagineverything]

Let's not even get started on the archaic FRA and its freight-originating mandates for commuter operations.

 

End thread.

[qjtransitmaster]

Let's not even get started on the archaic FRA and its freight-originating mandates for commuter operations.

 

End thread.

what mandates?

[realizm]

No.

 

Continue thread.

[imagineverything]

what mandates?

Really? 

 

Buff strength requirments for the all-too-common CSX intermodal train that might rear-end a LIRR train at valley stream?

 

Conductors?

 

Engineers?

 

Non-computerized train operations?

 

Compliance with FRA regulations like PTC? How is PTC appropriate for LIRR application?

 

The LIRR is not much more than a glorified subway. 

[Truckie]

Non-computerized train operations?

 

Compliance with FRA regulations like PTC? How is PTC appropriate for LIRR application?

 

The LIRR is not much more than a glorified subway. 

 

If operations were completely computerized who is going to inspect flat spots on the wheels when issues arise.  An MNR concern more than LIRR would be if the pantographs don't lower during change over, who is going to lock them down?  How will the computer account for slip slide conditions and once the train blows past a platform who is going to protect the doors? 

 

Just because you thing conductors and engineers are unnecessary, the human factor plays an important role in the safe operation of a train.  More than the average rider realizes.

 

PTC is appropriate to the extent that if a train blows past a stop signal (whether it be due to mechanical reasons for human factor), the train will stop automatically. 

 

As far as the LIRR not being much more than a glorified subway is strictly your opinion.  Being the subway has some sort of PTC and the LIRR doesn't maybe it's not quite up to their standards. LOL

 

If you definition of archaic is mandating PTC to improve rail safety, then I guess has a lot of work ahead of it to get to the 21st century.

[Kamen Rider]

Really? 

 

Buff strength requirments for the all-too-common CSX intermodal train that might rear-end a LIRR train at valley stream?

 

OK, we'll just leave that off the next car orders, and when a New York and Atlantic Railway freight train crashes into the back of a stopped pasenger train and kills everyone because you though it wasn't important enough they be protected, you can be the one to go to jail.

 

 

The LIRR is not much more than a glorified subway.

Proof that you don't know what you're talking about.

[imagineverything]

If operations were completely computerized who is going to inspect flat spots on the wheels when issues arise.  An MNR concern more than LIRR would be if the pantographs don't lower during change over, who is going to lock them down?  How will the computer account for slip slide conditions and once the train blows past a platform who is going to protect the doors? 

 

Just because you thing conductors and engineers are unnecessary, the human factor plays an important role in the safe operation of a train.  More than the average rider realizes.

 

PTC is appropriate to the extent that if a train blows past a stop signal (whether it be due to mechanical reasons for human factor), the train will stop automatically. 

 

As far as the LIRR not being much more than a glorified subway is strictly your opinion.  Being the subway has some sort of PTC and the LIRR doesn't maybe it's not quite up to their standards. LOL

 

If you definition of archaic is mandating PTC to improve rail safety, then I guess has a lot of work ahead of it to get to the 21st century.

So...we are starting to legalize automated driverless cars on roads with millions of non-professional drivers, but we cannot find a way to use CBTC to operate trains running on a FIXED guideway with designated switches completely run by specialists.

 

Really?

 

To address things like slip-slide, what does bombardier do for the airtrain? or RATP's driveless metro on Paris's Line 1?

 

Or future operations on the L subway line?

 

I expect those issues are taken care of at the shops.

 

As a side note, my personal experiences working as a consultant for NJTPA & NJ TRANSIT have exposed me to a railroad that actually interfaces with freight considerably. The proposal for the Northern Branch & West Shore Commuter involved heavy negotiations with CSX and fell apart over who would fund the main line improvements necessary for passenger services there (sound barriers, bridge repairs and 4 tracking to Dumont.)

 

The LIRR has few of these issues other than Harold Interlocking. (by no means small.)

 

However, there is no denying that it function as a closed system for the most part.

 

If all the tracks were sold to NYCT after ESA and the LIRR was cut off from the national rail network, services would likely be unaffected and all services would proceed to Atlantic and GCT.

[Kamen Rider]

And you continue to ignore the New York and Atlantic Railway.

 

Cutting the LIRR off from Penn station will result in calls for your head on a silver platter.Atlantic and ESA will never be able to hdndle the entirr lode of the LIRR. You just ended dual mode service into manhattan, as the C3s don't go to Atlantic and don't fit into the 63rd street tunnel, which is also not sufficiently ventilated for them to run there outside of extreme emergencies.

 

Cutting it off from the rest of the North American rail network does NOT automatically turn it into the subway. First of all, NYCTA can only operate within the city by law. This means you would need to change the law, which therefor involves the three ring circus of a state government we have to put up with. Also, they would have to file to be allowed to abandon railroad service with the federal government before they can make those sorts of cuts. Which I'm dam sure, for the betterment of this city and for Long Island, they going to say no. All of my trash is now brought to a large building and loaded onto train cars for long distance transportation. And it travels over LIRR owned tracks. You're going to tell me that I have to put up with more trucks on the road around here because it gets in the way if your grand ideas? You going to tell me you'd end the wonderful gains in freight rail for Long Island business, sending them back to trucks clogging up the LIE?

 

 

Secondly, PATH and SIRTOA have fewer connections to the mainline rail tracks than the subway, but still have to follow some FRA rules (ie, they must have certified engineers, not motormen), because connection does not equal enforcement.

[imagineverything]

OK, we'll just leave that off the next car orders, and when a New York and Atlantic Railway freight train crashes into the back of a stopped pasenger train and kills everyone because you though it wasn't important enough they be protected, you can be the one to go to jail.

 

 

 

Proof that you don't know what you're talking about.

OK, we'll just leave that off the next car orders, and when a New York and Atlantic Railway freight train crashes into the back of a stopped pasenger train and kills everyone because you though it wasn't important enough they be protected, you can be the one to go to jail.

 

 

I think that the NY&A exists due to FRA buff strength requirements.

 

The question of end to end railcar service vs. Intermodal @ croxton and trucking over the GWB/Verazzano is a debate for another thread.

 

If the the LIRR were exempt and used a less expensive but much more common global spec, the NY&A would cease to exist.

Proof that you don't know what you're talking about.

[imagineverything]

 

 

I think that the NY&A exists due to FRA buff strength requirements.

 

If the the LIRR were exempt and used a less expensive but much more common global spec, the NY&A would cease to exist.

 

Also, laws can be and are changed. Needs change.

 

The question of end to end railcar service vs. Intermodal @ croxton and trucking over the GWB/Verazzano is a debate for another thread. I have rarely seen NY&A trains but it doesn't mean they aren't there.

 

The hellgate line should remain freight, for nyc garbage disposal.

 

Look, payroll is nearly 60% of operating expenses. Something had to change.

 

Finally, from my experience working on the TZB - the governor can push forward any plan he wants. .. No matter how flawed, and will get away with it if he wants it to succeed.

[Kamen Rider]

If you remove the FRA crash worthyness on the LIRR equipment, they would not be able to operate with freight trains no matter who is running them, becuase the first freght to plow into them would peel them like a bananna. For the economey on Long Island to flosuish without going backwards, we need them. We need them badly. And making changes will result in loosing them.

 

Laws can't just be changed. the law makers have to want to change them, and Albany is far and away the most disfunctional group of people to ever call themsevesl a government. They can't agree on a budget to save thier lives, We're operating in many places on laws written before the civil war which they can't be bothered to update. If they can't do the important stuff right, why do you think they would so much as care about something like this?

[imagineverything]

While I agree with you about Albany, I disagree about Long becoming an exporter. It is simply a spatial mismatch. Other than interference in the market (read: subsidies), there is no logical reason to locate on Long Island vs. NJ until the PANYNJ completes its mandate to build a freight railroad feom NJ ti Long Island.

[Kamen Rider]

This isn't to attract new business. A lot of these trains are serving businesses that were already on the island, and wanted the much more economical and Eco-friendly trains to do the job of serving them. Long Island has a great industrial history that no one seems to want to remember. Long islanders built the lunar lander and other Grumman products. The railroad just re did the old Bethpage plant's tracks to prove the current tenants of the property with on site rail service.

 

First your pitching to force the railroads to unite, now you want the LIRR to be totally isolated. Make up your mind.

[imagineverything]

I am illustrating that no status quo should be set in stone.

[Kamen Rider]

Then it wouldn't be a status quo.

[imagineverything]

Ha. Fair enough.

[theaveragejoe]

I think that the NY&A exists due to FRA buff strength requirements.

 

.

 

NY&A exists as the LIRR/MTA wanted to get out of the freight business. in 1997 they awarded  Anacostia and Pacific Company (parent company of NY&A) a 20 year franchise for freight operations on LIRR tracks. Most of the current and former roster is of leased LIRR fleet of EMD SW1001's MP15AC's and GP38-2's.

[qjtransitmaster]

If operations were completely computerized who is going to inspect flat spots on the wheels when issues arise.  An MNR concern more than LIRR would be if the pantographs don't lower during change over, who is going to lock them down?  How will the computer account for slip slide conditions and once the train blows past a platform who is going to protect the doors? 

 

Just because you thing conductors and engineers are unnecessary, the human factor plays an important role in the safe operation of a train.  More than the average rider realizes.

 

PTC is appropriate to the extent that if a train blows past a stop signal (whether it be due to mechanical reasons for human factor), the train will stop automatically. 

 

As far as the LIRR not being much more than a glorified subway is strictly your opinion.  Being the subway has some sort of PTC and the LIRR doesn't maybe it's not quite up to their standards. LOL

 

If you definition of archaic is mandating PTC to improve rail safety, then I guess has a lot of work ahead of it to get to the 21st century.

ice resistant trains maybe IDK to be honest.

[imagineverything]

NY&A exists as the LIRR/MTA wanted to get out of the freight business. in 1997 they awarded  Anacostia and Pacific Company (parent company of NY&A) a 20 year franchise for freight operations on LIRR tracks. Most of the current and former roster is of leased LIRR fleet of EMD SW1001's MP15AC's and GP38-2's.

They would be happier with no freight in the system at all, and may choose that path in 2017.

[Kamen Rider]

They're not getting a choice in the matter.