3rd Rail Compatability LIRR/MNRR - would side mounting the 3rd rail solve the problem?

[qjtransitmaster]

 Actually no....an MTA Police Officer working in Long Island or for Metro-North can't be assigned on either place. They have to know the area. Can't send a cop from Long Island to go patrol Stamford.

 

____________

 

In the future the only feasible solution is to make train have the ability to flip their contact shoes so that they can use over-running & under-running 3rd rail as seen with the M8s... But that technology is not really being used at the moment.

M8s work on LIRR AND MNRR?

[Kamen Rider]

I think the only jaunts the M8s will make onto Long Island will be under wire only on the way to penn station.

[Kamen Rider]

In theory, the two agencies (MNRR and LIRR) are somewhat already connected because MTA Police oversees police operations on MNRR and LIRR. As far as I know, the same MTAPD cop can be assigned to either MNRR or LIRR, though somebody correct me on that if I am wrong on that account. Not that this is anything like replacing 3rd rails, but maybe like MTA Bus and MTA NYCT, the two related organizations can join in some ways. 

 

Yes, we're now going to use who has what police officers as a benchmark for interoperation... MTA police districts are no diffrent than being assigned to a precient for street cops. You go where you're sent. The MTA tried to join the two railroads in the past, more than once. and more than once, the state said NO. They are two compeltly diffrent compaines. their only connection is up and over and 350 Madison.

[QM1to6Ave]

 Actually no....an MTA Police Officer working in Long Island or for Metro-North can't be assigned on either place. They have to know the area. Can't send a cop from Long Island to go patrol Stamford.

Right, but in theory the cop could do ride-alongs and all that and then work in the new area, right? Just like an NYPD cop can switch precincts if he wants to. My point is just that there have been at least some attempts to combine organizations from MNRR and LIRR over time. Obviously it isn't a huge combination or anything, but it is something .

[imagineverything]

Yes, we're now going to use who has what police officers as a benchmark for interoperation... MTA police districts are no diffrent than being assigned to a precient for street cops. You go where you're sent. The MTA tried to join the two railroads in the past, more than once. and more than once, the state said NO. They are two compeltly diffrent compaines. their only connection is up and over and 350 Madison.

 

I feel that to most of the general public, they are different branches of the MTA Railroad. Most people don't even remember the two existing as different companies and many were probably not even born then.

 

They are the same company to almost everyone, from children, to average commuters all the way to elected officials.

 

The internal operations, to most people are not apparent - and if they were, the calls to integrate would be very, very loud indeed.

[Kamen Rider]

I feel that to most of the general public, they are different branches of the MTA Railroad. Most people don't even remember the two existing as different companies and many were probably not even born then.

Metro-North is only 30, so that's a ton of people who use it every day who are older than it.

They are the same company to almost everyone, from children, to average commuters all the way to elected officials.

 

The internal operations, to most people are not apparent - and if they were, the calls to integrate would be very, very loud indeed

Do you use ether of these lines on any sort of basis? bealive it or not, a large portion of the ridership of both feels the MTA shows favoritism to the other railroad, and that they're paying to subsidize the other side. If there were call for mergers, the acutal ridership would be in "pitchforks and torches" mode in a heartbeat.

[Far Rock Depot]

I meant LONG-TERM.

 

Interesting that was my point.  That was what I was trying to say. However you are saying that M8 and M9s in theory can run on 600V 3rd rail and catenary 750V if configured?

The M8s Are currently only configured for one 3rd rail voltage but for overhead they are designed for 2. But given that being done, It IS possible to have a railcar designed for two different voltages off the 3rd rail. The challenge would be equipment placement within the railcar for this to be done. Look at the weight of the M8s. They came out to be one of the heaviest in the Northeast, maybe even the country. And its not just because of FRA crashworthiness standards. Electrical equipment needed to draw, convert and distribute the current, and still be isolated from the other electrical systems, need to be placed (and not just on the roof, especially in the New Haven's case). They were originally looking at another order of "Triplex" cars (3-car units) to evenly distribute the equipment but it also meant that each car would draw  each different voltage/method. They eventually went with what we have now, a very heavy married pair. Now for a car to draw two different 3rd rail voltages, the biggest challenge for engineers will be that equipment placement but mostly undercar. Do you have both cars draw both voltages? Does each car draw a different one? Would gaps in the 3rd rail affect electrical contact? can we move some of the equipment on the roof? Would that cost less? How/what would be placed on the roof if we do that? etc. etc.

 

Now as far as the M8s and M9s exactly, we know its not done for the M8s(its only for the cantenary) and i think its safe to assume it aint happening with the M9s. Maybe in a future order IF they do decide to go that route when it may be feasible, coomponants become smaller and cost wont be much of an issue. 

[LIRR 154]

Merger will never happened. Because of two words " Union Politics". Once upon a time when the BLE and UTU was at Metro North that's when there was a chance. But things got ugly at MNR when both unions left with some MNR employees still showing aligning themselves the old union and some are sided with ACRE. Before any third rail or equipment changes are even thought about ,many other things will need to be sorted out. Like crew rule books ,work rules and overtime rules. And that goes for all departments whether its Transportation or MofE and MofW. You really have to understand that both RR are run differently even they may share the same crafts.

[Far Rock Depot]

Its not entirely impossible without a merger. Look at Meadowlands trains. NJT equipment operated by MNR crews along NH trackage as well as the WoH MNR trains. A contract is in effect between the two. A similar deal could be made between the two MTA railroads. 

[LIRR 154]

Its not entirely impossible without a merger. Look at Meadowlands trains. NJT equipment operated by MNR crews along NH trackage as well as the WoH MNR trains. A contract is in effect between the two. A similar deal could be made between the two MTA railroads. 

LIRR is not NJT . There is history between both MTA RR.

[imagineverything]

Merger will never happened. Because of two words " Union Politics". Once upon a time when the BLE and UTU was at Metro North that's when there was a chance. But things got ugly at MNR when both unions left with some MNR employees still showing aligning themselves the old union and some are sided with ACRE. Before any third rail or equipment changes are even thought about ,many other things will need to be sorted out. Like crew rule books ,work rules and overtime rules. And that goes for all departments whether its Transportation or MofE and MofW. You really have to understand that both RR are run differently even they may share the same crafts.

 

 

LIRR is not NJT . There is history between both MTA RR.

So sad, when the Port Authority takes over both railroads, the Corporate Culture of the NYC and LIRR will feel bad.

 

The way the two are portrayed are like two spoiled children that refuse to work together. 

 

Just say NO.

 

Conrail had no problem merging operations, and neither did CSX and NS when they split Conrail in two - a much larger operation with many complex issues.

 

I think we need to either make the MTA autonomous so the local state legislators from Rockville Centre and White Plains don't cry that local control of the RR is being taken away due to merger talks (as if there ever was local say to begin with...)

 

Either more autonomy, or submit to another agency that has that power already (PANYNJ.) 

 

Its time to govern like adults and frankly all the authorities should be disbanded and put under the NYSDOT.

 

I sickens me every time I pass another fiefdom's facility, knowing how provincial it is - I only hope for something like the MBTA, who runs everything.

 

Look at the need - we lost the ARC tunnel because it was seen as an NJ project and not in the proper context of a regional project, since neither the LIRR or MNRR was willing to sit down and contribute/share with another agency.

 

Please don't tell me that riders think that the other railroad isn't paying their fair share. That doesn't stop the subway A division and the B division from running as one system (even though they cannot share platforms, tunnels or rolling stock!) In addition, I hate using personal stories, but as a member of a LIRR commuting family living 250 feet from Merrick Station, I can attest that no one I have ever met thinks that the trains are any less crowded, expensive or over paid on Metro-North.

 

Finally, F*** that union cr@p. When the 3 local commuter railroads are forced to merge (perhaps by the next federal transportation bill), the resulting RR can negotiate with multiple unions and allow employees to have a choice of union enrollment.

[Truckie]

Finally, F*** that union cr@p. When the 3 local commuter railroads are forced to merge (perhaps by the next federal transportation bill), the resulting RR can negotiate with multiple unions and allow employees to have a choice of union enrollment.

 

Union crap aside, a merge up to this point can not be forced.  It has been ruled that we are two different railroads.  Even if it were to happen the funds needed to get everyone cross trained on equipment and territory would negate any savings on a merge.

 

As a conductor I can't just hop into LIRR train an be on my way.  There are equipment qualifications and territory qualifications.  There are also different rule books.  Every conductor and engineer would have to spend months to cross qualify.  As that is happening the current jobs still need to be covered.

 

The NJT and MNRR "partnership" is completely different.  Being there is only a few Meadowlands trains over the course of the season there are very few MNRR crews qualified to operate NJT's equipment and qualified on the territory to NY Penn.  WOH service doesn't even use MNRR crews.  MNRR contracts with NJT to operate the service with NJT crews and mostly their equipment.  Again, even though it's MNRR ROW, I can not operate over there if I wanted to. 

 

The only reason any EOH train service employees are qualified on the WOH is for conductor flag duties.  They are qualified on the rules and physical characteristics for the purposes of making sure the contractors don't do anything stupid, not to operate equipment.  Currently there are less than 10 EOH conductors qualified on the WOH as there is not a great need to have us qualified there.

[LIRR 154]

@ Imagine . As you are a commuter ,you don't get to really see that there is a bigger picture behind just moving trains up and down the line.Too many things come into play with dealing with the RR's. NY state,local politics ,district boards and even government comes into play. Don't just think just because MTA is on the brand that it can flip and make moves like the TA system. MTA is just a cap or a umbrella on top. As far as unions goes , even if you dont like them, they have been in place since the RR was born and that will never change. Just as Truckie point out as I said earlier both are run different

[imagineverything]

@ Imagine . As you are a commuter ,you don't get to really see that there is a bigger picture behind just moving trains up and down the line.Too many things come into play with dealing with the RR's. NY state,local politics ,district boards and even government comes into play. Don't just think just because MTA is on the brand that it can flip and make moves like the TA system. MTA is just a cap or a umbrella on top. As far as unions goes , even if you dont like them, they have been in place since the RR was born and that will never change. Just as Truckie point out as I said earlier both are run different

 

I am from a commuter town, but for my day job I work for a Transportation Planning agency. We do a lot of collaboration with both NJTPA and  NYMTC. We do work for all three transportation companies (not RR's, there I said it) and they hate working together, stuck in the mindset that it's the PRR vs. NYC vs. LIRR.

 

It is a shame that the three companies have ingrained these identities so hard into their employees.

 

In reality, when our Governor takes actual control of the MTA they LIRR & MNRR will be merged - trust me, if Joe Lhota had stayed on for another year we would have seen the end of the two individual operating companies.

 

With shared concourse space at the new GCT, the calls will only get louder in 2020 (or whenever it opens)

 

Stop treating them like they are so different. What exactly, (since I am not that involved with day-to-day operation of the RR) is unique about a run from GCT to Southeast than a run from NYP to Babylon? Perhaps the signals, tracks, switches, stations, grade crossings? Nothing that cannot be learned easily.

Procedures can be changed, don't defend the dinosaur in the room.

[imagineverything]

Trust me, I understand Union issues - I am a member of DC 37, local 375 myself. Within my agency, and the MTA there are employees that belong to multiple different unions. Its fine.

[LIRR 154]

I have to disagree about being merged. And Joe doesn't come close to having the power to do that. Too many state officials and board members are in the way. You will have a war of who pays what if that happens with districts in the burbs. As a person in the inside i just dont see a merge coming. Already there is some disagreements about GCT not being 24 hrs when the LIRR runs non stop. MNR wants some tracks at Penn and the LIRR so far isn't trying to hear that. Now I will never say never but the old guard doesnt want the oldest RR to change and believe they have the powers to be. I don't think that the MTA wants to go through that ,because its not like the airline industry where merges can go at a slow process until complete. Commuter Rail is a different animal and they will lose huge amounts money because things needs to happen fast and that will not be the case. Crew rules and books ,certifications , superiority rights on main line tracks in timetables the confusion will be chaos and in this industry that is a very bad thing.

[Trainmaster5]

Taking your logic at face value I assume that I, an IRT motorman(ret), should be qualified to operate on IND-BMT trackage, LIRR, MNRR, Amtrak, CSX or NS trackage, correct ? After all tracks are tracks, signals are signals, and switches are switches, and trains are trains, right ? FYI an IRT M/M or train operator must be qualified just to operate a non-revenue train in the other division, never mind the different equipment . Throw in the different signals and rules the commuter railroads and freight operators have on their own trackage and your utopian proposal becomes an operational nightmare, IMO.  I don't foresee a Stamford-Babylon run in the cards.

 

Stop treating them like they are so different. What exactly, (since I am not that involved with day-to-day operation of the RR) is unique about a run from GCT to Southeast than a run from NYP to Babylon? Perhaps the signals, tracks, switches, stations, grade crossings? Nothing that cannot be learned easily.

Procedures can be changed, don't defend the dinosaur in the room.

[imagineverything]

The final result is entrenched corporate culture is holding this back.

 

The Class I Railroads seem to have no issues running a train on a 700 mile run, operating on trackage used by perhaps as many as 10 commuter railroads and using trackage rights at times from Conrail shared assets and regional Class II's.

 

It is done, all the time - I repeat, there is nothing special here other than people entrenched in positions of power.

[Truckie]

I am from a commuter town, but for my day job I work for a Transportation Planning agency. We do a lot of collaboration with both NJTPA and  NYMTC. We do work for all three transportation companies (not RR's, there I said it) and they hate working together, stuck in the mindset that it's the PRR vs. NYC vs. LIRR.

 

It is a shame that the three companies have ingrained these identities so hard into their employees.

 

In reality, when our Governor takes actual control of the MTA they LIRR & MNRR will be merged - trust me, if Joe Lhota had stayed on for another year we would have seen the end of the two individual operating companies.

 

With shared concourse space at the new GCT, the calls will only get louder in 2020 (or whenever it opens)

 

Stop treating them like they are so different. What exactly, (since I am not that involved with day-to-day operation of the RR) is unique about a run from GCT to Southeast than a run from NYP to Babylon? Perhaps the signals, tracks, switches, stations, grade crossings? Nothing that cannot be learned easily.

Procedures can be changed, don't defend the dinosaur in the room.

 

Let's for a moment put employees and unions aside and try to have more of an objective outlook on the issue. 

 

First and foremost, the MTA chairman, NY Governor or any other politician does not have the power to merge the MTA railroads.  They can recommend it but the decision has to come from the FRA (federal railroad administration).

 

Once the ESA is complete and LIRR operates out of GCT there will be no "shared concourse" as you imply.  Metro North will still operate where they are and LIRR will be in a completely different area below.  You won't be able to go to the Metro North information center to ask about LIRR and vice versa. 

 

If this were the case, why can't LIRR, Amtrak and NJT be merged as they all operate at Penn Station?  They are only railroads, right?  LIRR and MNR are no different other than the fact the state helps finance the operations.

 

I am treating they like they are so different because they are!  The two railroads use a completely different signal system and as I stated a completely different rule book.  

 

Speaking from a personal point of view, I am only qualified on Metro North's Hudson and Harlem Lines.  I am not qualified on the New Haven Line.  For me to qualify over there would take approx two to three weeks of training and that's with the same operating rules.   

 

This "nothing that cannot be learned easily" takes time.  For me to become a Metro North conductor I had to go through 10 months of intense training.  You need to know by memory the location of every track, switch, station, length of platforms, highway grade crossing, signal and know every piece of equipment.  What to do if brakes get hung up or the signal system goes askew.

 

Engineers go through 1 to 1 1/2 years of training, they need to know all of the above and more.  Being the railroad has no speed limit sign like you see when you drive your car, they have to know the speed of every section of rail by memory.  If you speed  a few miles per hour over the posted speed limit in your car and a cop sees you, you might get a warning or at worse a ticket.  If an engineer gets caught speeding a few miles an hour over the MAS (maximum authorized speed), if he's lucky he'll only get a 30 day unpaid vacation.  At worse he'll be looking for a new career mighty quick.   And yes, we do have "cops" watching us with radar.  Both company supervisors and FRA inspectors can be out there near the ROW with their radar gun at any given moment.  A common place to see them is at the end of the platforms at GCT making sure your not running above 10 MPH.  It's also common to see them in the middle of no where.

 

Just a small note of the seriousness of operations, if the FRA is monitoring the radio and someone doesn't say "over" at the end of a transmission, the company can be fined.

 

In closing, your right, procedures can be changed.  It's a matter of if the FRA will allow it and at what cost.  It's hard for the lay person to understand what's involved.

[Truckie]

The final result is entrenched corporate culture is holding this back.

 

The Class I Railroads seem to have no issues running a train on a 700 mile run, operating on trackage used by perhaps as many as 10 commuter railroads and using trackage rights at times from Conrail shared assets and regional Class II's.

 

It is done, all the time - I repeat, there is nothing special here other than people entrenched in positions of power.

 

Now your comparing apples to oranges.  Freight and commuter are nothing a like.  Even still not every Amtrak and CSX crew can operate on MNR's tracks regardless if they operate on it as a company.  Not unless the conductor and engineer are qualified to do so.  Also being we use different operating rules, they have to carry multiple rule books, ours and their own.

[Trainmaster5]

The final result is entrenched corporate culture is holding this back.

 

The Class I Railroads seem to have no issues running a train on a 700 mile run, operating on trackage used by perhaps as many as 10 commuter railroads and using trackage rights at times from Conrail shared assets and regional Class II's.

 

It is done, all the time - I repeat, there is nothing special here other than people entrenched in positions of power.

If the rules and regulations are the same for all Class 1 railroads are the same nationwide then I don't see a problem at all. If the Class 2 and commuter railroads adhere to the same Class 1 standards when operating on Class 1 trackage I don't see a problem. Trackage sharing is commonplace across the US. The problem is when a commuter line like the LIRR or MNRR operates on it's own tracks 99.9% of the time and then enters Amtrak NEC, CSX, or NS's territory. That's when you must adhere to the national rules and that entails knowing another set of rules and SOP. I believe it amounts to dual qualification if that's what you were getting at. If you run a train from CT to LI using Penn Station you'd still need at least 2 qualifications if MNRR and LIRR were to have the same rules because you would still need Amtrak qualification to traverse Penn Station trackage to LIRR Harold interlocking if I'm correct. Even the recent move of the Circus train from NJ to LI needed the use of at least 2 sets of rules and train crews IIRC. Even if the separate rules for MNRR and LIRR were streamlined into one rulebook one would still need Amtrak or national qualification to operate service through Penn Station to LI or the Meadowlands if I'm not mistaken and unions or rules can't overcome that. Perhaps an LIRR or MNRR employee can correct me if I've oversimplified the details. Carry on.

[imagineverything]

If the rules and regulations are the same for all Class 1 railroads are the same nationwide then I don't see a problem at all. If the Class 2 and commuter railroads adhere to the same Class 1 standards when operating on Class 1 trackage I don't see a problem. Trackage sharing is commonplace across the US. The problem is when a commuter line like the LIRR or MNRR operates on it's own tracks 99.9% of the time and then enters Amtrak NEC, CSX, or NS's territory. That's when you must adhere to the national rules and that entails knowing another set of rules and SOP. I believe it amounts to dual qualification if that's what you were getting at. If you run a train from CT to LI using Penn Station you'd still need at least 2 qualifications if MNRR and LIRR were to have the same rules because you would still need Amtrak qualification to traverse Penn Station trackage to LIRR Harold interlocking if I'm correct. Even the recent move of the Circus train from NJ to LI needed the use of at least 2 sets of rules and train crews IIRC. Even if the separate rules for MNRR and LIRR were streamlined into one rulebook one would still need Amtrak or national qualification to operate service through Penn Station to LI or the Meadowlands if I'm not mistaken and unions or rules can't overcome that. Perhaps an LIRR or MNRR employee can correct me if I've oversimplified the details. Carry on.

The devil is in the details  .

 

Back to the original point, the two run different legacy systems & rules. Changing to a side mounted 3rd rail would be one of many steps that will integrate the New Jersey & New York Railroads. (later signals, rules, unions, ect )

[Kamen Rider]

but there is no practicale purpose to forcing them togther if THEY DON'T WANT TO.

[imagineverything]

but there is no practicale purpose to forcing them togther if THEY DON'T WANT TO.

It is not their choice to make - it is the property of the PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF NEW YORK.

[LIRR 154]

It is not their choice to make - it is the property of the PEOPLE OF THE STATE OF NEW YORK.

i haven't  seen or heard no big demand for a combine RR..