An Alternative to the Montague Street Tunnel Closure You May Not Know About

[BrooklynBus]

http://www.sheepsheadbites.com/2013/09/an-alternative-to-the-montague-street-tunnel-closure-you-may-not-know-about/

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I think those who want to know about alternative services will find out about them.  The express buses back when I started using them barely had any schedules at the stops.  It was almost as if they were a secret, and getting paper schedules weren't so easy either.  They have improved dramatically in that area, especially with the website, but I think part of the responsibility falls on the communities to advertise the public transportation services available to residents.  

 

To be honest, you have people that only care about the subway and the subway only and those people don't even consider the other options available, even if they are faster.  Then you have those who want other options aside from the subway.  That's who the should be marketing to with the express bus or MetroNorth or the LIRR and the city should be promoting the ferry use to deal with the overcrowding on some subway lines.  Ferry service in Williamsburg has proven very successful and has taken some of the strain off of the .  In fact some ferry riders now take the ferry precisely because they can't stand dealing with the packed trains.  I've been saying it for a while now but this city has to branch out into other transportation options besides the subway to move people around.  There is a market for the more higher income bracket of people who will use more expensive forms of transit and those people should be marketed to, similar to how the markets MetroNorth in Riverdale.  I am sure that their marketing efforts have helped to grow ridership at the two Riverdale stations, as I have seen more and more new riders and folks asking me about MetroNorth and so on.

[RTOPRO]

Ferries are a terrible alternative to subway service. There are other subway routes that get the job done better than walking several Avenues to reach a pier.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

And in this case, the ferry is a viable alternative only if you live in Sunset Park or Bay Ridge. If you live further up, you're much better off using the alternate subway lines.

[Guest Lance]

It's not the MTA's job to advertise services it has nothing to do with. The ferry is a DOT service and has no direct connections to either the subway or the bus system, nor does it offer direct transfers between the two. You want it advertised? Call the media or the DOT.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Ferries are a terrible alternative to subway service. There are other subway routes that get the job done better than walking several Avenues to reach a pier.

That doesn't apply to everyone, nor can you assume that no one lives or works near these ferries.  The subways cannot accommodate everyone, nor does the have the monies necessary to keep up with the growing demand, so there should be a focus to use and advocate other alternatives such as the express bus, ferries and so on.

[BrooklynBus]

It's not the MTA's job to advertise services it has nothing to do with. The ferry is a DOT service and has no direct connections to either the subway or the bus system, nor does it offer direct transfers between the two. You want it advertised? Call the media or the DOT.

It is the MTA's job. Part of the reason they were created was to coordinate mass transit in the region. This does not mean they should only promote what they operate. Part of the problem is that the modes are treated separately. When a new ferry is started, the MTA needs to look into changing its bus routes to get people to the ferry. We cannot have the City promoting certain modes and the MTA promoting others. Everyone needs to cooperate like the City and the MTA are working together on SBS. Similarly, they need to work together on buses and ferries also. I do blame DOT more than the MTA, however, for doing a horrible job at publicity and don't even believe the City wants these ferries to succeed because they do not want to have to subsidize them. It's so much easier to say we tried and they didn't work out.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

It is the MTA's job. Part of the reason they were created was to coordinate mass transit in the region. This does not mean they should only promote what they operate. Part of the problem is that the modes are treated separately. When a new ferry is started, the MTA needs to look into changing its bus routes to get people to the ferry. We cannot have the City promoting certain modes and the MTA promoting others. Everyone needs to cooperate like the City and the MTA are working together on SBS. Similarly, they need to work together on buses and ferries also. I do blame DOT more than the MTA, however, for doing a horrible job at publicity and don't even believe the City wants these ferries to succeed because they do not want to have to subsidize them. It's so much easier to say we tried and they didn't work out.

I would have to agree with you.  While it isn't the 's job per se they should adjust schedules to accommodate passengers making other connections where possible.  That seems more than reasonable.  If they want to encourage people to use their services more, they should make their services more accessible by offering better connections and also by making their services accessible.  When detours occur, passengers should not have to run around trying to figure out where they need to go.  Often times with planned detours, it's like you're not supposed to use your usual services because they give incorrect or conflicting information which makes the commute even more of hassle.  It's something that I've been complaining to them about for a few years now and they need to work on that big time.  

 

When the train was out and I used to take the SI Ferry on weekends, it made no sense to me that we would have to wait so long before the shuttle left knowing that the majority of us were taking the SI Ferry and that the ferry ran every hour after a certain time.  

[trainfan22]

Ferries are a terrible alternative to subway service. There are other subway routes that get the job done better than walking several Avenues to reach a pier.

People could use crosstown buses to reach the ferry terminals..

 

If said ferries are like the NY Waterway or NY water taxi boats then they can't be that much worse than the subway, those boats seem to move at a pretty decent clip, only issue is that when it gets really cold and the river freezes up, it causes service disruptions IIRC.

[peacemak3r]

Some of my opinions and experiences:

 

1. The introduction; people being stranded on DeKalb. On numerous occasions, I've seen tourists figure out there are no ®'s going into Manhattan just by reading those signs stating the ®'s tunnel is closed.  There were some whom can't even read English and still figure it out by looking at the pictures.  So I don't know what you mean that there are no signs at DeKalb about no ®'s going into the tunnel.  They either took whatever train is going over the bridge or walked to the downtown side and took it to presuming Atlantic Ave.

 

2. Ferry alternative, so you're expecting me to pay my $2.50 fare then ANOTHER $2.00 fare and possibly another $2.50* to get back into the subway just to travel to some destinations? I rather not, if that were the case I rather take an express bus or even drive to work/school.

* = Considering you take the into Lower Manhattan and make another connection where you can't make in Brooklyn.

[Guest Lance]

It is the MTA's job. Part of the reason they were created was to coordinate mass transit in the region. This does not mean they should only promote what they operate. Part of the problem is that the modes are treated separately. When a new ferry is started, the MTA needs to look into changing its bus routes to get people to the ferry. We cannot have the City promoting certain modes and the MTA promoting others. Everyone needs to cooperate like the City and the MTA are working together on SBS. Similarly, they need to work together on buses and ferries also. I do blame DOT more than the MTA, however, for doing a horrible job at publicity and don't even believe the City wants these ferries to succeed because they do not want to have to subsidize them. It's so much easier to say we tried and they didn't work out.

You're missing my point. The MTA has literally nothing to do with this ferry service. So why should they reconfigure the nearby buses to accommodate a service they have no interest in? And please don't give me that "the MTA was created to do such and such". That was decades ago and really has no effect on today's agency. Plus, as mentioned several times already, the ferry is not that convenient for riders outside away from Sunset Park. The ferry also has abysmal ridership figures since its inception last month. The MTA is doing the right thing by pointing riders towards alternatives that are actually useful, rather than options that will invariably take riders out of their way to get to.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

You're missing my point. The MTA has literally nothing to do with this ferry service. So why should they reconfigure the nearby buses to accommodate a service they have no interest in? And please don't give me that "the MTA was created to do such and such". That was decades ago and really has no effect on today's agency. Plus, as mentioned several times already, the ferry is not that convenient for riders outside away from Sunset Park. The ferry also has abysmal ridership figures since its inception last month. The MTA is doing the right thing by pointing riders towards alternatives that are actually useful, rather than options that will invariably take riders out of their way to get to.

lol... It's been around one month or so with not many people mentioning it as an alternative and you sit here and slam the service as if that should be a surprise?  You were one of those who vehemently opposed the ferry service before it even started because you think that the subway works for everyone's commute, so of course you would be quick to discredit anything that isn't subway focused.  Not exactly surprising.  

 

Meanwhile, there are ferry services that have been successful in the city that have helped to alleviate overcrowding on some subway lines and you know why? Because they've been marketed properly, as this service should be as well.  Having transportation companies work together with the is the way that it should be because it makes transportation better for everyone overall in this city and I think that's what everyone should be striving for.  There is no one service that is THE service for everyone and the sooner some people get this the better off we'll be.

[RTOPRO]

That doesn't apply to everyone, nor can you assume that no one lives or works near these ferries.  The subways cannot accommodate everyone, nor does the have the monies necessary to keep up with the growing demand, so there should be a focus to use and advocate other alternatives such as the express bus, ferries and so on.

A majority of people live and work closer to a subway line than a pier on both the home and working end. Ferries benefit very few people which is why they are used by very few people (with the exception of the Staten Island and some Hudson River ferries).

When the train was out and I used to take the SI Ferry on weekends, it made no sense to me that we would have to wait so long before the shuttle left knowing that the majority of us were taking the SI Ferry and that the ferry ran every hour after a certain time.  

The subway schedule is tailored to move a maximum number of people at cost effectiveness. It's not tailored to connect you with the boat before it leaves. This is a problematic mentality of most NYers. What the MTA won't say is that you should leave earlier. However they translate it into "allow for additional travel time."

[bobtehpanda]

Accommodating pilot ferry routes with changes in bus service seems like overkill, especially when it's not clear that these ferries will be given more than a couple of months.

[RTOPRO]

lol... It's been around one month or so with not many people mentioning it as an alternative and you sit here and slam the service as if that should be a surprise?  You were one of those who vehemently opposed the ferry service before it even started because you think that the subway works for everyone's commute, so of course you would be quick to discredit anything that isn't subway focused.  Not exactly surprising.  

 

Meanwhile, there are ferry services that have been successful in the city that have helped to alleviate overcrowding on some subway lines and you know why? Because they've been marketed properly, as this service should be as well.  Having transportation companies work together with the is the way that it should be because it makes transportation better for everyone overall in this city and I think that's what everyone should be striving for.  There is no one service that is THE service for everyone and the sooner some people get this the better off we'll be.

Yet you're missing the point. The point is in the figures of these ferries historically. Actually do some research into the amount of East River ferries started over the past 8 years and come back and tell us how many of them have survived to this day. Ferries are not popular because a majority of people work further in Manhattan away from the waterfront and closer to a subway line and MOST live away from the water fronts.

 

As for the other side of the argument about the MTA promoting the ferries. The MTA is a large agency that has to be careful as to the travel ideas they suggest to people as they must consider the elderly and disabled not just the well able bodied. These are big factors as to why they won't. The MTA is in the business of minimizing it's litigation risks.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

A majority of people live and work closer to a subway line than a pier on both the home and working end. Ferries benefit very few people which is why they are used by very few people (with the exception of the Staten Island and some Hudson River ferries).

 

The subway schedule is tailored to move a maximum number of people at cost effectiveness. It's not tailored to connect you with the boat before it leaves. This is a problematic mentality of most NYers. What the MTA won't say is that you should leave earlier. However they translate it into "allow for additional travel time."

I was talking about a subway shuttle, not a subway.  Two very different things...

 

Yet you're missing the point. The point is in the figures of these ferries historically. Actually do some research into the amount of East River ferries started over the past 8 years and come back and tell us how many of them have survived to this day. Ferries are not popular because a majority of people work further in Manhattan away from the waterfront and closer to a subway line and MOST live away from the water fronts.

 

As for the other side of the argument about the MTA promoting the ferries. The MTA is a large agency that has to be careful as to the travel ideas they suggest to people as they must consider the elderly and disabled not just the well able bodied. These are big factors as to why they won't. The MTA is in the business of minimizing it's litigation risks.

That's because historically New York's waterfront wasn't used for residences and was mainly industrial.  However, that trend is changing rapidly and now you have a lot of residential properties being developed along the waterfront.  In fact the whole waterfront is undergoing massive changes as the city realizes its potential so the idea that you're proposing WAS true in the past but won't be so true in the near future.  We're seeing how the waterfront along Williamsburg is being developed with luxury condos and lofts and we're seeing other areas around the city being developed along the waterfront, so my point is that the status quo that the subway is the be all end all is simply not going to continue.  Now of course the subway will continue to move a large chunk of the population, but it would be foolish to invest billions in redeveloping our waterfronts without other transportation alternatives aside from the subway, which may be out of the way in some areas that will become dense, especially when you know that there simply isn't enough money to expand some subway lines to serve those waterfront areas in some places.  You also have to think about the amount of people that will populate these new areas and the cost to keep up with the growing demand on the subway and the strain that the system is already under.

 

I find that subway service is getting worse not better, due to delays and the issue of trying to squeeze more and more trains on lines that aren't equipped to handle them.  

 

 

Accommodating pilot ferry routes with changes in bus service seems like overkill, especially when it's not clear that these ferries will be given more than a couple of months.

Who said anything about that?

[RTOPRO]

 

I was talking about a subway shuttle, not a subway.  Two very different things...

 

That's because historically New York's waterfront wasn't used for residences and was mainly industrial.  However, that trend is changing rapidly and now you have a lot of residential properties being developed along the waterfront.  In fact the whole waterfront is undergoing massive changes as the city realizes its potential so the idea that you're proposing WAS true in the past but won't be so true in the near future.  We're seeing how the waterfront along Williamsburg is being developed with luxury condos and lofts and we're seeing other areas around the city being developed along the waterfront, so my point is that the status quo that the subway is the be all end all is simply not going to continue.  Now of course the subway will continue to move a large chunk of the population, but it would be foolish to invest billions in redeveloping our waterfronts without other transportation alternatives aside from the subway, which may be out of the way in some areas that will become dense, especially when you know that there simply isn't enough money to expand some subway lines to serve those waterfront areas in some places.  You also have to think about the amount of people that will populate these new areas and the cost to keep up with the growing demand on the subway and the strain that the system is already under.

 

I find that subway service is getting worse not better, due to delays and the issue of trying to squeeze more and more trains on lines that aren't equipped to handle them.  

 

 

Who said anything about that?

 

Same thing...subway shuttle or subway and yes I know you mean the bus. It runs on a schedule. Just like the trains run on a schedule. It's not tailored to meet the schedule of the ferry. It's tailored for maximum passenger load transport for cost effectiveness. The shuttles are run at an extra cost with the customers not paying an extra fare so it has to be as cost effective as possible since it's operation happens at a loss.

 

Also you mentioned the trend changing and in the future....the future is not now. The city shouldn't run ferries at a loss with low passenger numbers just because they will be popular 2-4 years from now. Everything being discussed revolves around what is going on now and the ridership numbers are abysmal to say the least. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Same thing...subway shuttle or subway and yes I know you mean the bus. It runs on a schedule. Just like the trains run on a schedule. It's not tailored to meet the schedule of the ferry. It's tailored for maximum passenger load transport for cost effectiveness. The shuttles are run at an extra cost with the customers not paying an extra fare so it has to be as cost effective as possible since it's operation happens at a loss.

 

Also you mentioned the trend changing and in the future....the future is not now. The city shouldn't run ferries at a loss with low passenger numbers just because they will be popular 2-4 years from now. Everything being discussed revolves around what is going on now and the ridership numbers are abysmal to say the least. 

Actually it is now... Williamsburg is a perfect example of this and ferry service there certainly is not "abysmal".  It has actually exceeded expectations.  DUMBO and Red Hook would be other examples where the waterfronts are or already have been redeveloped and these areas don't have easy access to subways.

 

Source: http://www.redhookwaterfront.com/index.php/news

 

I have never heard of a subway shuttle running on a "schedule" and if one exists they should put it somewhere so that people aren't waiting like idiots on a bus that won't be moving until "X" time when they've got a ferry to catch or other connections to make such as when the was knocked out in certain portions.  You can say "leave earlier" but that's easier said than done since you cannot plan the shuttle portion of the commute which can often times take the longest between waiting for a bus and then waiting to leave the designated pick up stop.  I was always under the impression that once a shuttle bus has picked up all of the passengers that it's foolish to have it sit there and wait when no one else is getting on when it isn't going to maximize any sort of "capacity" since you aren't getting any paying passengers, especially when you know that these people are having their trips elongated because the subway is knocked out.   If we're talking about an actual shuttle that turns a profit, THEN that would make sense.

 

So if they run on schedules, what happens if the shuttle bus is already "at capacity"?  Do they still hold to the schedule or are they allowed to leave?  

[bobtehpanda]

Who said anything about that?

 

 

When a new ferry is started, the MTA needs to look into changing its bus routes to get people to the ferry.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

That makes sense to me...

[Guest Lance]

What, that the bus system should be tailored to connect to a ferry nobody's using?

[bobtehpanda]

^ All the ferry routes have been "pilot" projects. If we changed bus routes for every pilot ferry route in the city we'd be seriously confusing passengers due to the sheer number of changes and reversions we'd have to go through.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

What, that the bus system should be tailored to connect to a ferry nobody's using?

 

 

^ All the ferry routes have been "pilot" projects. If we changed bus routes for every pilot ferry route in the city we'd be seriously confusing passengers due to the sheer number of changes and reversions we'd have to go through.

What exactly is the harm in looking at the feasibility of having bus routes connect with ferries?  I see nothing wrong with studying ways to better connect people via public transit.  If it isn't feasible then it isn't done, but telling everyone that the subway is THE answer for their commute is condescending and arrogant to say the least.

[Guest Lance]

No one's saying the subway's the only option. There's also the nearby express bus routes in the area. It's just the ferry offers limited connectivity to everything else without shelling out an additional fare or having commuters go out of their way to use said ferry. Besides, they can do all the feasibility studies they want. If the ridership isn't there, what's the point?

 

I do have a question for you Via. Why do you have such a hard-on for this ferry service anyway?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

No one's saying the subway's the only option. There's also the nearby express bus routes in the area. It's just the ferry offers limited connectivity to everything else without shelling out an additional fare or having commuters go out of their way to use said ferry. Besides, they can do all the feasibility studies they want. If the ridership isn't there, what's the point?

 

I do have a question for you Via. Why do you have such a hard-on for this ferry service anyway?

Again, you're speaking from your point of view, which doesn't necessarily represent everyone else's commute.  It's not about me having a hard on for this ferry service.  It's just comes down to the fact that this city is changing in terms of how people are commuting and where they're living and we need to have an open mindset rather than just saying that everyone MUST use the subway, even if they don't want to or don't live near one, otherwise they must use the bus.  We both know that the majority of people in NYC use the subway to get around as their primary way of commuting.  

 

However, I know of quite a few people who either don't like using the subway or become very paranoid when using it and those people do use public transit but prefer other options.  I have a colleague who was just mentioning this to me the other day which I was taken back by but then I thought about it, as someone who doesn't use the subway for their primary way of commuting, it made sense.

 

Then you have the emerging communities along the waterfronts, along with people further out with limited transportation options that like the idea of having ferry service (i.e. the Rockaways for example) and I think if we can get more people to use public transit that otherwise would use their cars, then we should get those people out of their cars.  The city acknowledged that its waterways are underused and also acknowledged that they would be looking at ferry service as a new way to move people and I applaud them for doing so.  Yes, the ferry service will cost a bit more, but at the same time, building subway extensions will cost much more and we simply don't have the monies for it.  Even if we did, they take years to complete and cause other economic problems, including killing small businesses, something this city doesn't need during this fiscal crisis that we're still in.  

 

In short, I support other transportation alternatives in addition to the subway.  Hell not that long ago, there was talk here in Riverdale about a ferry service and if talks went further, even though we have three express buses and MetroNorth, I would certainly give my full support behind the ferry service and would use it, just like I use all three express buses and MetroNorth currently.  There is never such a thing as having too much transportation and communities being considered for ferry service would be foolish to not give it a shot.  The only thing that needs to happen in Bay Ridge is that they need to give the service some time to allow people to try it out (just like they're doing in the Rockaways) and then try to market it better to ensure that people know about it as an option and then make a decision to keep it or cut it but to not try it out just because of the status quo would be foolish.  As it is right now, even if one takes the , they still have to make multiple transfers, so it's not as if the train provided such an easier commute and this is coming from someone who has used the for years down in Bay Ridge.  It's probably one of the worse subways to depend on in the city.