Department of Subways - Proposals/Ideas

[LongLiveRock]

 the  does fine handling 2 Av on its own. 

 

 

No, it doesn't. The MTA already need to increase TPH with trips, and are looking to increase it even more. It gets insanely crowded here, and I don't know how you're denying this. It'll only get worse when Phase 2 is completed, which is why the needs to be able to serve 2nd Av.

[LongLiveRock]

But the MTA can only run so many trains at once, and Coney Island can only turn so many trains, and so that creates more problems.

[LGA Link N Train]

Push for an extension for the to the Bronx, it's going to be a lot cheaper and I'm suprised that the MTA is denying this. This Bronx expansion is going to serve a lot more riders and give people at Dyre Avenue a one seat ride to the Airport

[LongLiveRock]

Push for an extension for the to the Bronx, it's going to be a lot cheaper and I'm suprised that the MTA is denying this. This Bronx expansion is going to serve a lot more riders and give people at Dyre Avenue a one seat ride to the Airport

 

 

... Which airport?

 

And 125th needs the service, building a tunnel is expensive, and the Bronx is already well-served.

[LGA Link N Train]

... Which airport?

 

And 125th needs the service, building a tunnel is expensive, and the Bronx is already well-served.

Whoops, my bad I meant to say Times Square

 

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What I don't get is why barely anyone came up with a finalized expansion plan for the entire subway. (ESPECIALLY THE MTA, or at least not since 1968) but still, one of the only people who I found out was capable of doing this was Vanshnookenraggen. (And well of course, other people across the world)

[LongLiveRock]

What I don't get is why barely anyone came up with a finalized expansion plan for the entire subway. (ESPECIALLY THE MTA, or at least not since 1968) but still, one of the only people who I found out was capable of doing this was Vanshnookenraggen. (And well of course, other people across the world)

 

 

 

Because ridership patterns change a lot over time and each expansion takes considerable time and money to get done, and it's no use planning 100 years in advance because the city will look very different then?

[LGA Link N Train]

well, funding for construction has to be reorganized. It's sad that investment gets out of control so something needs to be done

[RR503]

That would only increase crowding on the  being the only Queens Blvd local... also what would replace the  on weekends? Also the  does fine handling 2 Av on its own. Passengers can use the      since it alleviated some crowd off of the IRT Lex.

 

Eh? I'm saying leave the alone -- its current route is optimal...

 

Also, aside from the fact that your claim that the is fine is false, your alternative is to increase loads on the lex, the VERY THING THAT SAS WAS BUILT TO REDUCE.

But the MTA can only run so many trains at once, and Coney Island can only turn so many trains, and so that creates more problems.

Also dekalb...

[LGA Link N Train]

What you are talking about is the 2 Av-Dyre Exp, right? I agree with this. While some people think it's useless due to not providing service via a new corridor, it's no different from a line under Park Av or a QB Bypass via 63 St.

True, and depending on how successful it becomes (I f it ever gets built) then the and could run a local/express service on Dyre Avenue

 

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Edited August 23, 2017 by LGA Link N train

[LGA Link N Train]

Also, the  does not need to get sent up 2 Av. They would already get more frequent service since there would be no merging or interaction with the local    . 

The  should be used for 3 Av to replace the original elevated. Dyre does not need two services.

yea I agree but First, that would be a seperate project on it's own and second, once you think about it aren't the current alternatives for the demolished 3 Av EL the Bx15 and the Metro North???

Also, the  does not need to get sent up 2 Av. They would already get more frequent service since there would be no merging or interaction with the local    . 

The  should be used for 3 Av to replace the original elevated. Dyre does not need two services.

I said if the becomes successful on the Dyre Avenue line up to the point where there's a demand for a local express service on Dyre Avenue

[RR503]

What you are talking about is the 2 Av-Dyre Exp, right? I agree with this. While some people think it's useless due to not providing service via a new corridor, it's no different from a line under Park Av or a QB Bypass via 63 St.

 

Why would you replace the on Dyre with a SAS line? You're cutting a ton of transfer options for them (no more 149th st, no more lex transfers). The reason ppl suggest the QB Bypass is because there is a ton of demand for it. Not so much for an expensive rebuild of a functioning service that has a good amount of capacity to spare... (also IDK who's suggesting a line under park ave. -- it wouldn't work -- MNR is under it). 

 

Also, the  does not need to get sent up 2 Av. They would already get more frequent service since there would be no merging or interaction with the local    . 

The  should be used for 3 Av to replace the original elevated. Dyre does not need two services.

 

Oh for the love of god. Your plan for s on Queens Boulevard via 63rd simply moves the / merge from 34th to 63rd. You are still restricting capacity.  

 

What should be done is this 

 

96th-CI, via Sea Beach (replaced by nights/weekends) 

 

96th-CI, via Brighton

 

runs as now, but with more tph and a few trains extended to 179 during the rush to help with the conga line at 71st. 

 

full time line Astoria-Whitehall, replacing the 's TPH in Astoria, with any train that can't be turned at Whitehall being sent to South Brooklyn via 4th ave local. Nights/weekends to Coney Island. 

 

^^^ Gets rid of the 34th St merge and doesn't add one in its place. It also increases service on 4th ave, which has been lacking since the brown ended. 

Edited August 23, 2017 by RR503

[S78 via Hylan]

No, it doesn't. The MTA already need to increase TPH with trips, and are looking to increase it even more. It gets insanely crowded here, and I don't know how you're denying this. It'll only get worse when Phase 2 is completed, which is why the needs to be able to serve 2nd Av.

Those (N)s were sent up there since Ditmars Blvd cannot handle every single or that comes in and out. Edited August 23, 2017 by S78 via Hylan

[Wallyhorse]

Why would you replace the on Dyre with a SAS line? You're cutting a ton of transfer options for them (no more 149th st, no more lex transfers). The reason ppl suggest the QB Bypass is because there is a ton of demand for it. Not so much for an expensive rebuild of a functioning service that has a good amount of capacity to spare... (also IDK who's suggesting a line under park ave. -- it wouldn't work -- MNR is under it). 

 

Which is exactly why I don't touch that one (Dyre Avenue) in any of my proposals

 

Oh for the love of god. Your plan for s on Queens Boulevard via 63rd simply moves the / merge from 34th to 63rd. You are still restricting capacity.  

 

What should be done is this 

 

96th-CI, via Sea Beach (replaced by nights/weekends) 

 

96th-CI, via Brighton

 

runs as now, but with more tph and a few trains extended to 179 during the rush to help with the conga line at 71st. 

 

full time line Astoria-Whitehall, replacing the 's TPH in Astoria, with any train that can't be turned at Whitehall being sent to South Brooklyn via 4th ave local. Nights/weekends to Coney Island. 

 

^^^ Gets rid of the 34th St merge and doesn't add one in its place. It also increases service on 4th ave, which has been lacking since the brown ended. 

And this is closer to my plan that I posted previously in the Second Avenue Subway Discussion thread:

 

 

 

I think he meant a 4th Avenue/Broadway express from Kings Highway for the   (that would run to 96th/2nd and later 125th/2nd) while the   would run Coney Island to Astoria as a 4th Avenue/Broadway Local.

 

My idea is similar but would operate like this:

 

 operates from Coney Island to Astoria via Sea Beach Local, 4th Avenue Local, Montague Tunnel, Broadway Local and 60th Street Tunnel at all times.

 

 is unchanged (Coney Island to 96/125 via Brighton Local, Manhattan Bridge, Broadway Express, 63rd Street and SAS).

 

 is unchanged (95th Street to 71st-Continental via 4th Avenue Local, Montague Tunnel, Broadway Local, 60th Street and Queens Bouelvard Local, late nights to Whitehall Street).

 

 operates (with new switches past both ends of the station on the express track) from Ocean Parkway on the Brighton Line through Coney Island to 96th/125th Street via Sea Beach Local, 4th Avenue Express, Manhattan Bridge (skipping DeKalb Avenue), Broadway Express, 63rd Street and SAS.  Does NOT operate late nights.  Can operate weekends to/from Brighton Beach.  

 

This is how I would do it.

 

[LGA Link N Train]

Why would you replace the on Dyre with a SAS line? You're cutting a ton of transfer options for them (no more 149th st, no more lex transfers). The reason ppl suggest the QB Bypass is because there is a ton of demand for it. Not so much for an expensive rebuild of a functioning service that has a good amount of capacity to spare... (also IDK who's suggesting a line under park ave. -- it wouldn't work -- MNR is under it).

HOLD UP!!!! Who said that I was eliminating transfers??? There's still going to be a transfer at East 180 St because there's already an abandoned station in place. The only difference is that weekend service will be diverted to Neird Av or Wakefield. The only major difference is that there will be no Late Night trains.

In other words the might see reduced service.

Edited August 23, 2017 by LGA Link N train

[LGA Link N Train]

Also, the does not need to get sent up 2 Av. They would already get more frequent service since there would be no merging or interaction with the local .

 

The should be used for 3 Av to replace the original elevated. Dyre does not need two services.

Also you completely missed what I said about a Dyre local/express service. I said if it becomes successful and if ridership soars because of it's success, then there would be a likely chance to make a local/express service

 

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[LGA Link N Train]

Exactly! Also, since the would be rerouted to Wakefield, it could now run peak exp between 241 St and E 180 St. But on a side note, shouldn't the be extended to Bedford Park Blvd? This would involve eliminating the sharp S-curve at 149 St-Grand Concourse.

 

The Dyre Av bypass that I mentioned is technically your express service. After E 180 St, there would only be stops at Hunts Point Av , St. Anns Av-Bruckner Blvd, 116 St, and then normal stops south of there.

 

It would run along the Amtrak ROW to Whitlock where a new el structure would connect the line to the abandoned platform at E 180 St.

Well, the 149/Grand Concourse junction does need to be reorganized (even though [1 phase of] the project would take a year or 2 .. or more than that)

 

 

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[LGA Link N Train]

 

 

Well, the 149/Grand Concourse junction does need to be reorganized (even though [1 phase of] the project would take a year or 2 .. or more than that) to build

 

 

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[P3F]

If you were given the opportunity to convert some of the Sea Beach line stations to an express station layout (as seen at Newkirk Plaza / Church Avenue / Prospect Park), which stations would be the most optimal ones to convert so that an express service could be run on the Sea Beach line?

Edited August 24, 2017 by P3F

[LGA Link N Train]

If you were given the opportunity to convert some of the Sea Beach line stations to an express station layout (as seen at Newkirk Plaza / Church Avenue / Prospect Park), which stations would be the most optimal ones to convert so that an express service could be run on the Sea Beach line?

The likely Canidates for Express stations on Sea Beach are 8 Av, New Urchet Avenue, and Bay Parkway

 

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[RR503]

HOLD UP!!!! Who said that I was eliminating transfers??? There's still going to be a transfer at East 180 St because there's already an abandoned station in place. The only difference is that weekend service will be diverted to Neird Av or Wakefield. The only major difference is that there will be no Late Night trains.

In other words the might see reduced service.

 

Okay, back to basics. A division lines (numbered line) are physically incapable of sharing track with B division (lettered) lines. The car widths are different. So unless you plan to replace trains entirely on Dyre (something I object to because a. Second Avenue track capacity is better used elsewhere, and b. service is demonstrably better than anything that 2av can offer (more transfers further south on the line, direct access to GCT, etc)), your second avenue trains will be confined to the express tracks...where there are no stations, and none can be built because the ROW isn't wide enough. 

 

Also you completely missed what I said about a Dyre local/express service. I said if it becomes successful and if ridership soars because of it's success, then there would be a likely chance to make a local/express service

 

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The line doesn't have high enough ridership to justify express service, and anyway, it's physically impossible to do so. 

 

Send 2nd avenue across 125 and up 3rd ave in the bx as y'all suggested. MUCH better plan. 

[LongLiveRock]

How are you going to run three services up 2nd Av?

[RR503]

The platforms would be shaved back to accommodate B-div trains. Also, the  and  could swap routings, with the  going to Dyre and  going to Gun Hill via 3 Av if riders warranted East Side Access. And I would build 125 St Crosstown as well with a SAS "(U)".  

EDIT: I agree with your point that there is no need for express service on Dyre. 

 

Okay, but you still haven't convinced me that SAS dyre is better than what they have now. trains during rush hours make Dyre Ave stops, then go to E180, and express from there all the way to Brooklyn Bridge (save for a short stretch in the lower BX). Additionally, riders get more centrally located stations in manhattan, access to brooklyn, and (relatively, compared to the long passages that will be required for SAS xfers) transfers to the (180, 149), , (125th) , , , (59th) , , (42nd) , , (14th), , (BBCH), , , , (Fulton). SAS will most certainly provide some of these connections, but for the most part, they will not be acheived with the same facility that they are off of the . And SAS will not give riders express service or Brooklyn access. 

 

Finally, sending the up White Plains Road would be difficult. The termini at Wakefield and Nereid Ave. are close to capacity, and the addition of more trains there would only serve to delay.  

[LGA Link N Train]

Okay, but you still haven't convinced me that SAS dyre is better than what they have now. trains during rush hours make Dyre Ave stops, then go to E180, and express from there all the way to Brooklyn Bridge (save for a short stretch in the lower BX). Additionally, riders get more centrally located stations in manhattan, access to brooklyn, and (relatively, compared to the long passages that will be required for SAS xfers) transfers to the (180, 149), , (125th) , , , (59th) , , (42nd) , , (14th), , (BBCH), , , , (Fulton). SAS will most certainly provide some of these connections, but for the most part, they will not be acheived with the same facility that they are off of the . And SAS will not give riders express service or Brooklyn access.

 

Finally, sending the up White Plains Road would be difficult. The termini at Wakefield and Nereid Ave. are close to capacity, and the addition of more trains there would only serve to delay.

Make the run peak service to Wakefield during rush and midday. At the weekend the and can do a skip stop pattern from Wakefield to 3 Av-149 St . Lastly, during late night hours the doesn't need to run at all. The could use the Dyre Avenue route overnight. Besides if the ran to Dyre Avenue, then it would have a lot more transfers than any SAS train that will run south of 63 St can accomplish. Times Square, Canal St, and Atlantic - Barclay's are just to name a few

 

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Edited August 24, 2017 by LGA Link N train

[RR503]

The largest piece of the puzzle is missing: market. Dyre doesn't need service. Instead of expensively redoing service that already functions, why don't we use SAS's 30tph to serve the 3rd ave corridor, and 125th st. MUCH better resource allocation IMO. 

[2Line1291]

Anything that has to do with disconnecting the off White Plains Rd is a super plus. In a scenario the stays on Dyre Ave, it needs to be connected to the Pelham at Hunts Point like originally intended. In the meantime the running up 3rd Ave and joining the Concourse extension to Bay Plaza. This way Bay Plaza and Gun Hill Rd riders have the that goes to the West Bronx, Yankee Stadium, and Harlem with the that goes to the Hub, Spanish Harlem, 2nd Av and Broadway along with a transfer to the and the . Also this allowing the to run more efficiently including a <2> Bronx peak express running express south of Gun Hill Rd and the to run efficently still run AM rush hour express in between Hunts Point and 3rd Ave (LOL if Pelham Bay riders would allow that) eliminates the tight curve bottleneck at Grand Concourse-149th St along its right of way