Fixing the L Train and Managing the Shutdown A Community Consensus Proposal

[Wallyhorse]

Don't really have a UES prospective. But you do make a point and raise questions from a transit planning POV.  There saying 200K for Phase 1.

 

What would that do to help the Lex? You're still a million plus a day. You're still running the same amount of Trains and at first, glance shifting the weight to another part of the Lex.

Where are people traveling to from the UES? Lower Manhattan seems likely on the matrix so are the SAS riders getting back on the Lex below 14th? Or is the pulling some weight there? As I'm looking at the math if the full SAS isn't completed or at least Phase 3 what is the project doing to expand bandwidth just seems more like shifting weight around and perception. They have to commit and see this, though.  Where's the value if they don't? 

Anyone looking for Lower Manhattan from the UES can take the and switch to:

 

The or at Union Square, 14th, 34th, Times Square or 57th

The at Union Square (or OOS via 63rd)

The at Times Square

The at Canal Street

 

Where it will relieve the is mainly for those looking for midtown, and the SAS would be even more so if you added in the "Orange " that is an supplement weekdays and main line late nights and weekends as that gives SAS riders a 6th Avenue option. 

[Around the Horn]

Anyone looking for Lower Manhattan from the UES can take the and switch to:

 

The or at Union Square, 14th, 34th, Times Square or 57th

The at Union Square (or OOS via 63rd)

The at Times Square

The at Canal Street

 

Where it will relieve the is mainly for those looking for midtown, and the SAS would be even more so if you added in the "Orange " that is an supplement weekdays and main line late nights and weekends as that gives SAS riders a 6th Avenue option. 

 

God damn it, just call them trains...

 

No ones proposing the trains to 96th Street have a different letter so why should a few potential trains be any different?

[T to Dyre Avenue]

This is an outlandish and possibly infeasible idea, but it strikes me that G/M/R to 179 could actually work if you made no stops between 71 and 179. Basically you'd call the service as terminating at 71st but instead of fumigating the thing there, you'd run it to 179 and reverse. Or fumigate it there and go back to the yard. Plenty of room to do so. Hell, turn at parsons.

 

ASSUMING there's enough space on D2 clear of the switch after 71 - and shy of the switch at 75 for a train to loiter and wait for the F to clear. The criss-cross operation could slow things down, but I think it has the potential to work. Who knows. Probably not.

 

They're probably just going to make the G 8 cars long, give a free transfer to the J/Z/M and tell everyone to deal with the crowded trains.

There is definitely not enough space to do that, especially if you have the , and all on the local. Certainly not with the running 15 tph.

 

They certainly should run 8-car trains. But they also really need to run as much extra service as is possible on the line because a very large percentage of the displaced riders will seek out that line as the alternative. I just don't think the on its current headways will be enough to deal with all those additional riders. That would be like stuffing eight pounds of sand in a five-pound sand bag.

 

The issue on here really seems to be where to turn the extra trains. Would turning them at 71st/Continental really foul up the northbound Queens Blvd Local tracks that much worse compared to what it's like now? If there's already too many trains waiting on the relay tracks to turn southbound at 71st, would it really too much trouble to continue those few extra trains to 179th? Do we really need to involve 2nd Ave in the train shutdown?

[Wallyhorse]

There is definitely not enough space to do that, especially if you have the G/M/R all on the local. Certainly not with the F running 15 tph.

 

They certainly should run 8-car trains. But they also really need to run as much extra service as is possible on the M line because a very large percentage of the displaced riders will seek out that line as the alternative. I just don't think the M on its current headways will be enough to deal with all those additional riders. That would be like stuffing eight pounds of sand in a five-pound sand bag.

 

The issue on here really seems to be where to turn the extra trains. Would turning them at 71st/Continental really foul up the northbound Queens Blvd Local tracks that much worse compared to what it's like now? If there's already too many trains waiting on the relay tracks to turn southbound at 71st, would it really too much trouble to continue those few extra M trains to 179th? Do we really need to involve 2nd Ave in the L train shutdown?

I think you would need the and as noted many times to all go to 179th (with the express to 179 and when there is traffic locals moved to the express track after Parsons Boulevard) to make it work, mainly so people on the do not have to make the switch to the or at Court Square and have options to and at Queensboro Plaza and at Queens Plaza.  The conga line is well known at 71st-Continental and only would likely be worse, which is why I would split the into and as previously noted.  

 

Court Square to me otherwise is going to be a disaster.  That's also why I would encourage riders to take the the other way to Fulton Street with a new OOS transfer at Atlantic-Barclays to the 2/3/4/5/B/D/N/Q/R and the normal transfer to the and at Hoyt-Schermerhorn as well as have the and all run to 179 to better distribute the people affected by the shutdown.  

[T to Dyre Avenue]

I think you would need the G, M and R as noted many times to all go to 179th (with the F express to 179 and when there is traffic locals moved to the express track after Parsons Boulevard) to make it work, mainly so people on the G do not have to make the switch to the 7, E or M at Court Square and have options to N and W at Queensboro Plaza and R at Queens Plaza. The conga line is well known at 71st-Continental and only would likely be worse, which is why I would split the into and as previously noted.

 

Court Square to me otherwise is going to be a disaster. That's also why I would encourage riders to take the the other way to Fulton Street with a new OOS transfer at Atlantic-Barclays to the 2/3/4/5/B/D/N/Q/R and the normal transfer to the and at Hoyt-Schermerhorn as well as have the and all run to 179 to better distribute the people affected by the shutdown.

No, I disagree. You absolutely do not need the to go past Court Square. It's completely unnecessary and it will get delayed by and trains switching onto the Queens Blvd local tracks before and after Queens Plaza. And moving the locals to the express tracks at Parsons? What's that all about? The switching delays at Queens Plaza aren't already enough? You are not "distributing" anyone better by sending all those trains to 179. All you're doing is sending trains - and riders - way out of their way and making them more unreliable.

 

As noted many times (a phrase you're quite fond of saying) no riders are going to ride an extra stop to Queens Plaza to change for the . And they certainly won't travel there, exit the system, then re-enter the system at Queensboro Plaza for the or . Same goes for Fulton St and Atlantic-Barclays. Out-of-system transfers are overrated. They tend to be very underused and it's unwise to expect very many people to rely on them, especially if they have to go well out of their way to get to them.

 

And as someone who rode the Queens Blvd local trains every weekday for three years, I don't need anyone to tell me about any "conga lines" at 71st Avenue. It's not by any means a smooth ride into Continental, but it's not so bad that you need to send all the locals to 179. Unless you run the , and all to 179, which is what you want to do.

 

You're damn right Court Square will be a disaster. That is why you provide extra service there. You don't send it a million miles out of the way to the Upper East Side, especially if it's only four or five trains per hour on weekdays that will not be used by the very riders on the UES for whom you want to give those trains to.

[RailRunRob]

Anyone looking for Lower Manhattan from the UES can take the and switch to:

 

The or at Union Square, 14th, 34th, Times Square or 57th

The at Union Square (or OOS via 63rd)

The at Times Square

The at Canal Street

 

Where it will relieve the is mainly for those looking for midtown, and the SAS would be even more so if you added in the "Orange " that is an supplement weekdays and main line late nights and weekends as that gives SAS riders a 6th Avenue option. 

So it's a reshuffle? You're describing shifting bandwidth to other lines. 200K off the Lexington what's the measurement there? Doesn't seem like a whole lot. Without a full SAS your still not adding any new bandwidth.

[bobtehpanda]

So it's a reshuffle? You're describing shifting bandwidth to other lines. 200K off the Lexington what's the measurement there? Doesn't seem like a whole lot. Without a full SAS your still not adding any new bandwidth.

 

Yes you are. Right now (and pre-2010) you had three Broadway services to Queens and one Broadway service terminating at 57 St, so the 57 St service was essentially underused in one direction. Now that 57 St service goes to 96 St and you just used the other direction up.

[CenSin]

God damn it, just call them trains...

 

No ones proposing the trains to 96th Street have a different letter so why should a few potential trains be any different?

I am—sort of: something to distinguish deviant routes from the canonical, by-the-map definition. This goes for the , , , and other odd routes that regularly fork up north and/or south at some point. Of course, this will only be useful once the new trains with huge colored screens on the front and side come into common use. There will be no excuse like difficulty changing the signs, because it’s all done at the push of a few buttons. I’ll admit I run into the wrong trains in a mad rush to get moving. If my eyeballs spy an as I’m rushing down the stairs, I’m going to get inside and assume it’s going to drop me off at Queensboro Plaza. And then I’ll discover that it doesn’t when I carefully examine the FIND display—hopefully not after I get on at 57 Street–7 Avenue. Of course, it’s not a solvable problem now as there is no provision for bullet variants on the displays on the NTTs.

 

Then again, the NYC subway isn’t the only system guilty of this. The Washington DC Metro does the same with its handful of Orange runs to Largo Town Center and Yellow runs to Franconia–Springfield. But their system is extremely simplified with only a handful of basic colors that can be easily named and visually distinguished, so they don’t really have a choice. The MTA has letters, colors, and two bullet shapes, the last of which is only made use of by 2 out of the 25 numbers/letters.

[RailRunRob]

Yes you are. Right now (and pre-2010) you had three Broadway services to Queens and one Broadway service terminating at 57 St, so the 57 St service was essentially underused in one direction. Now that 57 St service goes to 96 St and you just used the other direction up.

That makes sense to me so, in essence, I'm optimizing and making better use of bandwidth I already have. So with that said how much will this optimizing existing structure help the Lexington Ave Line? The main line in need! In terms of this phase of the SAS. Seems I'm now saying instead of getting the at 86th street, I'm getting the at 14th now the same body just further down the line. Instead of getting the at 96th and switching to the at GC im getting the again at 14th street. I'm sure the will help UES folks going to the Westside maybe with a one-seat ride for a few. The could take some of the pressure as well and getting people to adapt a new route in itself is a challenge. Keep in mind this is all from the perspective of most riders going to the UES to Lower Manhattan so if i'm wrong there let me know. I'm just trying to understand what the expectation of Phase 1 really is? Or is this a stop-gap?

[Wallyhorse]

No, I disagree. You absolutely do not need the to go past Court Square. It's completely unnecessary and it will get delayed by and trains switching onto the Queens Blvd local tracks before and after Queens Plaza. And moving the locals to the express tracks at Parsons? What's that all about? The switching delays at Queens Plaza aren't already enough? You are not "distributing" anyone better by sending all those trains to 179. All you're doing is sending trains - and riders - way out of their way and making them more unreliable.

 

As noted many times (a phrase you're quite fond of saying) no riders are going to ride an extra stop to Queens Plaza to change for the . And they certainly won't travel there, exit the system, then re-enter the system at Queensboro Plaza for the N/W. Same goes for Fulton St and Atlantic-Barclays. Out-of-system transfers are overrated. They tend to be very underused and it's unwise to expect very many people to rely on them, especially if they have to go well out of their way to get to them.

 

And as someone who rode the Queens Blvd local trains every weekday for three years, I don't need anyone to tell me about any "conga lines" at 71st Avenue. It's not by any means a smooth ride into Continental, but it's not so bad that you need to send all the locals to 179. Unless you run the G/M/R all to 179, which is what you want to do.

 

You're damn right Court Square will be a disaster. That is why you provide extra service there. You don't send it a million miles out of the way to the Upper East Side, especially if it's only four or five trains per hour on weekdays that will not be used by the very riders on the UES for whom you want to give those trains to.

I get that, but the problem is, the conga line at 71-Continental that is only likely to get worse.  That is why I would either: 

 

Send the all to 179 (with the express all the way) so the can stop at Queens Plaza where I think you will have some who would have sense to get the (and even the or where it's simply up and over or the at Queensboro Plaza via a new OOS transfer).  A lot of people I know (including me) used to back up a few stops if it was easier to get train and then go forward, and I think some might realize it would be worth backing up to Queens/Queensboro Plaza.  

 

OR

 

Split the into to 71-Continental as it is now and to 96th-2nd Avenue as previously noted.  

 

Either way, I would also have the OOS transfers in place to/from the both at Broadway to/from the J/M/Z and at Fulton to/from the 2/3/4/5/B/D/N/Q/R at Atlantic-Barclays and encourage those, especially those looking for lower Manhattan to go one of those ways OR to go to Hoyt-Schermerhorn and use the there.  

 

I'm trying to cut down on the bandwith that will be at Court Square as much as possible during the shutdown to something more reasonable and prevent that from being a disaster while at the same time prevent the already-bad conga lines at 71-Continental from becoming WORSE than they already are.

[Around the Horn]

Clearly you don't get it, since your proposing that three services run local on QBL, at the same time.

 

There's a reason why the never ran on QBL when the did. There's no room for it.

[bobtehpanda]

That makes sense to me so, in essence, I'm optimizing and making better use of bandwidth I already have. So with that said how much will this optimizing existing structure help the Lexington Ave Line? The main line in need! In terms of this phase of the SAS. Seems I'm now saying instead of getting the at 86th street, I'm getting the at 14th now the same body just further down the line. Instead of getting the at 96th and switching to the at GC im getting the again at 14th street. I'm sure the will help UES folks going to the Westside maybe with a one-seat ride for a few. The could take some of the pressure as well and getting people to adapt a new route in itself is a challenge. Keep in mind this is all from the perspective of most riders going to the UES to Lower Manhattan so if i'm wrong there let me know. I'm just trying to understand what the expectation of Phase 1 really is? Or is this a stop-gap?

 

The is the Broadway express with direct access to Midtown around 7th Av, Times Sq, Herald Square, and so on and so forth. This alternative will allow a direct ride for people who would otherwise transfer at Lex-59 for Broadway services, and so reduces congestion at the busy transfer stop.

 

The would also become another line running crosstown from East to West, so people east of Sixth would have another option to get to Midtown East.

 

Keep in mind that the is not the endgame for SAS; there are three other phases.

[Lance]

Well, this thread has certainly run its course. And then some.

 

Am I going to have to start locking threads every time the 14th Street tunnel closure pops up in conversation? Seriously, while amusing at times, it is very frustrating to have to sift through the same posts verbatim to find any real information regarding this upcoming closure. While many of us have different ideas on how to solve the inevitable traffic problems that will arise from this shutdown, posting the same ideas over and over ad nauseum does not endear anyone to your idea. In fact, seeing the same ideas presented so many times becomes quite a turn-off, especially when said ideas are constantly rebuffed with more sensible suggestions.

 

For those interested, I will consolidate the relevant information regarding the upcoming 14th Street closure into one sticky thread within the next few days. That way, we can find all of the latest news in one place without this persistent nonsense.

 

Thread closed.