Brooklyn Bus Redesign Discussion Thread

[BrooklynBus]

6 hours ago, Ex696 said:

The ... Service on Wortman and on Linden east of Fountain is being rerouted on Stanley Avenue. Service north of Broadway Junction is being replaced by the , not exactly sure how many people used the section north of there, can't comment on it. The biggest change is probably the limited service on Pennsylvania Avenue, which is nice, because I don't think Pennsylvania is a corridor that needs two local services.

The ... increased frequency with the loss of the B20 local and overnight service. The biggest change is the rerouting for it to become a Pennsylvania through-route which is something that should have been done a long time ago...however, Van Siclen is losing service with no replacement, which is a problem...

Pennsylvania Avenue once was a through route back in 1975. CB 5 complained to the MTA that a new north south route was needed midway between Pennsylvania and Fountain Ave. The MTA declined stating they had no money and the one way streets were too narrow for buses. They suggested altering the B83 to what we have today. The community claimed that didn’t solve the problem, but agreed nevertheless because at least there was service on Van Siclen south of Flatlands. So if you don’t like the current B83, you have no one to blame but the MTA. Incidentally, I attended all those negotiations with the community, so I have first hand knowledge of this. I also was the one who suggested extending the B83 to Gateway via its current routing which took them no less than three years to determine it was a good idea. I made my Southwest Brooklyn changes in four years because the MTA delayed us for two years. 

[Ex696]

1 hour ago, BrooklynBus said:

So if you don’t like the current B83, you have no one to blame but the MTA.

I wouldn't say I dislike the B83's current routing, my problem is more about the gap of north-south service on Pennsylvania Avenue between Wortman and Vandalia, and also that Van Siclen is losing their service with no replacement.

[Interested Rider]

On 7/31/2023 at 8:10 AM, Ex696 said:

You mean, it would serve Kings Bay Co-op Houses then go to Avenue U, right? I think the connection to Avenue U should be kept.

The only change is that instead of using Nostrand Avenue from Avenue Y to Avenue Z, it would go via Avenue Y to Batchelder Street the south on Batchelder Street to Avenue Z then via Avenue Z and regular routing. It will retain its regular routing to the Avenue U terminal. The goal is  to connect the cooperative with the Nostrand Avenue Shopping Center, the library, the Y and the Senior Centers

[Interested Rider]

On 7/31/2023 at 12:38 PM, Interested Rider said:

Yes! The route is Nostrand Avenue, Avenue Y, Batchelder Street, Avenue Z and regular. Reverse is just the opposite as it is Avenue Z, Batchelder Street, Batchelder Street, Avenue Y, Nostrand Avenue and regular to Avenue U terminal. The number of stops to be added toward Coney Island are three East side of Avenue Y at Nostrand Avenue, Southwest corner of Batchelder Street and Avenue Y and Haring Street at Avenue Z before the cut for the parking lot. Eastbound the stops would be at Nostrand Avenue, Northeast corner of Batchelder Street at Avenue Z. The existing BM3 stop according to the BM3 stop list is to be moved from the south side of Avenue Z to the northside of Avenue Z and be a shared stop. The next stop would be in the existing stop located at Avenue Y and Nostrand Avenue.

 

[B35 via Church]

14 hours ago, Ex696 said:

So you think the Metropolitan Avenue branch needs to stay??

To maintain 3 min. peak headways to/from Catalpa, more or less, yeah.....

Now I'm not all that fond of that branch per se, but an alternative to canning that branch & having all service run to Catalpa, is to increase headways.... Which raises the question - does the B38 warrant service that frequently...

5 hours ago, Ex696 said:

I wouldn't say I dislike the B83's current routing, my problem is more about the gap of north-south service on Pennsylvania Avenue between Wortman and Vandalia, and also that Van Siclen is losing their service with no replacement.

I would merely propose a branch of the B83 on Van Siclen to solve this.... In other words, the current B83 would be a branch of the proposed B83.

[Interested Rider]

On 7/31/2023 at 11:44 AM, BrooklynBus said:

If it’s once an hour, that doesn’t mean much. Those buses mostly either run empty or have one or two passengers the entire trip 

Sometime at the end of June, I looked out of my window at 4:15 AM on a Saturday morning, I observed ten (yes ten) individuals who were looking at the post board as to when the next B/44 bus would arrive. Before this happened, I always observed 2-3 riders boarding at this stop and this is with a schedule of 60 minutes. This means that there are more people riding for the entire route. While I cannot pinpoint where they are coming from, it seems that there has been a large increase in the number of B/44 riders at all times coming from during the Knapp Street portion of the route. In fact, it was next to the impossible to board a Knapp Street select bus during the midday period at Avenue U one day. The B/44 locals are just as crowded going to Knapp Street during the midday period.

Bus service is a variable thing as one day the bus would have 2 people boarding at the same time as the next day when you have 10 people. This is why I try not to make generalizations as to the number of passengers at different times of the day if I do not ride the bus at that time.

 

[BrooklynBus]

9 hours ago, Ex696 said:

I wouldn't say I dislike the B83's current routing, my problem is more about the gap of north-south service on Pennsylvania Avenue between Wortman and Vandalia, and also that Van Siclen is losing their service with no replacement.

So what they really are doing is going back to the original routing still without fixing the north south service gap the community was complaining about 48 years ago, and they are calling this a redesign to “fix” problems and service gaps when they are just cutting service. 

[BrooklynBus]

3 hours ago, Interested Rider said:

Sometime at the end of June, I looked out of my window at 4:15 AM on a Saturday morning, I observed ten (yes ten) individuals who were looking at the post board as to when the next B/44 bus would arrive. Before this happened, I always observed 2-3 riders boarding at this stop and this is with a schedule of 60 minutes. This means that there are more people riding for the entire route. While I cannot pinpoint where they are coming from, it seems that there has been a large increase in the number of B/44 riders at all times coming from during the Knapp Street portion of the route. In fact, it was next to the impossible to board a Knapp Street select bus during the midday period at Avenue U one day. The B/44 locals are just as crowded going to Knapp Street during the midday period.

Bus service is a variable thing as one day the bus would have 2 people boarding at the same time as the next day when you have 10 people. This is why I try not to make generalizations as to the number of passengers at different times of the day if I do not ride the bus at that time.

 

I have a feeling there must have been a change of shift at the nursing home when you saw more people than you expected. The MTA needs to do micro planning when redesigning routes taking things like change of shifts into consideration. When I was a kid I remember 50 people getting on at one stop on the B35 on Thursday at 10 PM severely overcrowding the bus. Why? A bingo game just finished at a church. 

[Interested Rider]

12 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

I have a feeling there must have been a change of shift at the nursing home when you saw more people than you expected. The MTA needs to do micro planning when redesigning routes taking things like change of shifts into consideration. When I was a kid I remember 50 people getting on at one stop on the B35 on Thursday at 10 PM severely overcrowding the bus. Why? A bingo game just finished at a church. 

For the record, I live nowhere near the nursing homes as you are well aware. The time that I was looking out my window at 4:15 AM on a Saturday morning, the temperature was in the mid 50's and the persons were wearing shorts and short sleeve shirts which was not typical for that time of persons going to work..  

[Ex696]

On 7/30/2023 at 2:48 AM, Ex696 said:

The B26 and B52 shifting from running on secondary corridors (Putnam Avenue and Greene Avenue, respectively) to their respective main corridor to running on Fulton until their main corridor is interesting, usually they leave their main corridor before their main corridor approaches Fulton Street to move to their secondary corridor before running on Fulton Street. This means more service on Fulton, which is good considering how dreadful  can be with its headways. This does come at the cost of negating service on Greene and Putnam Avenues, however. The B26 becoming a Rush route is questionable considering how traffic on Fulton can get, but overall is good for Halsey Street riders. The B25 being truncated to Franklin overnight with the B26 replacing local service west of there....don't know much about it's ridership, but the B25's overnight headways are terrible and most people are probably gonna just take the  at Franklin during those hours instead of waiting for a B26, which might've been their intention all along. What else is interesting is that the B25 was only made 24/7 because Fulton Landing lost the B41, but the proposed B26 isn't running there at any time of day, even overnight.

Anything to say about this observation or the B25/B26/B52 changes, in general?

[Future ENY OP]

On 7/30/2023 at 1:53 AM, Ex696 said:

I don't know how the B44 SBS to Coney Island Hospital will go, last time I checked, Avenue Z can have congestion problems some times, but people on the current B44 route south of Avenue Z will have lesser service due to B44 local service not being increased. I think the B44 Local Avenue U trips should all be extended to Knapp Street to make up for this decreased service.

Something tells me that that B44 proposal to Coney Island Hospital will more likely get canned. There’s enough service provided on the B1, B4 and B68. Given there’s enough service at that corridor between Sheepshead Bay and Coney Island Hospital. Also, if I’m a bus rider between Williamsburg and Coney Island Hospital I’d scream hell for this.  

Honest truth, your looking at a disaster between Sheepshead Bay and Coney Island with no viable solutions or alternatives. 

[BrooklynBus]

2 hours ago, Future ENY OP said:

Something tells me that that B44 proposal to Coney Island Hospital will more likely get canned. There’s enough service provided on the B1, B4 and B68. Given there’s enough service at that corridor between Sheepshead Bay and Coney Island Hospital. Also, if I’m a bus rider between Williamsburg and Coney Island Hospital I’d scream hell for this.  

Honest truth, your looking at a disaster between Sheepshead Bay and Coney Island with no viable solutions or alternatives. 

I agree. It’s a horrible proposal. The B36 is greatly underserved in rush hours east of Sheepshead Bay Station. This proposal allows for increased service without adding buses which is why the MTA wants it. But there are just too many negatives with this proposal. We don’t need a fourth bus route on Ave Z, especially articulated buses. When I advised the MTA of this, their solution was to ban parking and eliminating some bus stops, in a neighborhood where parking is very scarce. This is bad for local businesses and for the bus passengers since they will have to walk much further to a bus stop and wait longer if their extra walk causes them to miss a bus, adding to their trip time. My proposal for the B44 SBS to go to Kingsborough when school is in session makes a lot more sense. 

[Future ENY OP]

4 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

I agree. It’s a horrible proposal. The B36 is greatly underserved in rush hours east of Sheepshead Bay Station. This proposal allows for increased service without adding buses which is why the MTA wants it. But there are just too many negatives with this proposal. We don’t need a fourth bus route on Ave Z, especially articulated buses. When I advised the MTA of this, their solution was to ban parking and eliminating some bus stops, in a neighborhood where parking is very scarce. This is bad for local businesses and for the bus passengers since they will have to walk much further to a bus stop and wait longer if their extra walk causes them to miss a bus, adding to their trip time. My proposal for the B44 SBS to go to Kingsborough when school is in session makes a lot more sense. 

The real benefits for a B44+ going to KCC would be people along Empire Blvd, Church Ave, Newkirk/Foster/Junction and points towards Sheepshead.  The real KCC bus is the B49. There’s no need for a Williamsburg bound bus going to KCC even when school in session.  

HOWEVER, should a B44 go to KCC let it be the SBS versus the local.  Also, B49 needs to be left alone. No need for redundancy service for Coney Island via Bed-Stuy. You already have the B74, B82, B68, B36 and to an extent B1 and B4. 
 

Throw the whole Brooklyn re-design in the garbage. 

[BrooklynBus]

1 hour ago, Future ENY OP said:

The real benefits for a B44+ going to KCC would be people along Empire Blvd, Church Ave, Newkirk/Foster/Junction and points towards Sheepshead.  The real KCC bus is the B49. There’s no need for a Williamsburg bound bus going to KCC even when school in session.  

HOWEVER, should a B44 go to KCC let it be the SBS versus the local.  Also, B49 needs to be left alone. No need for redundancy service for Coney Island via Bed-Stuy. You already have the B74, B82, B68, B36 and to an extent B1 and B4. 
 

Throw the whole Brooklyn re-design in the garbage. 

There are also people in Crown Heights who take a crosstown route to the B49. Transferring to the B44 SBS instead of the B49 would save about 20 minutes off the trip. Of course, the same savings would occur if these passengers transferred to the Brighton Line or Franklin Shuttle, but that would involve double fare so they use the bus instead.

I agree with throwing the whole redesign in the garbage.  

[Ex696]

3 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

I agree with throwing the whole redesign in the garbage.  

Surely, there must be at least one proposal in the redesign that you like?

[BrooklynBus]

24 minutes ago, Ex696 said:

Surely, there must be at least one proposal in the redesign that you like?

I like several proposals. But I had them in my proposal, only better. I like the B16 extended, but it needs to go to E 98 St, not Utica Ave. The B55 needs to use Linden non-stop instead of using slow New Lots Avenue. 

[Ex696]

2 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said:

The B55 needs to use Linden non-stop instead of using slow New Lots Avenue. 

But Linden lacks the connection to the  and , though.

 

[Interested Rider]

9 hours ago, BrooklynBus said:

I agree. It’s a horrible proposal. The B36 is greatly underserved in rush hours east of Sheepshead Bay Station. This proposal allows for increased service without adding buses which is why the MTA wants it. But there are just too many negatives with this proposal. We don’t need a fourth bus route on Ave Z, especially articulated buses. When I advised the MTA of this, their solution was to ban parking and eliminating some bus stops, in a neighborhood where parking is very scarce. This is bad for local businesses and for the bus passengers since they will have to walk much further to a bus stop and wait longer if their extra walk causes them to miss a bus, adding to their trip time. My proposal for the B44 SBS to go to Kingsborough when school is in session makes a lot more sense. 

You are the one who proposed this sometime ago and when it was proposed originally, I said it was unworkable and your data was flawed. It seems that Operations Planning adopted your proposal and they included it in the redesign. Now you are back with the Kingsborough proposal which I also said was unworkable and would make the situation worse but you keep bringing  it up on this forum. Leave the B/44 select bus alone as the route is long enough. 

There is a need for a change on the B/44 local and select bus terminals from Avenue U to Avenue X especially during the weekday select bus midday hours. This will help the B/44 local and select bus and the B/36 as well.

I have looked at the re=routing of the B/49 from Manhattan Beach to Coney Island and the B/4 via Neptune Avenue ,and Coney Island Hospital and take the position both routes remain as is. In reading your posts on these two routes here you agree with operations planning that changes must be made.  What you and operations panning  forget the key here that connects the routes and the reason that remain as is that both routes serve the main 11235 post office on Avenue Z that would not available.

Operations planning is proposing that the B/68 replace the B/49 in Manhattan Beach. Another thing that should be buried.

The changes that were made in November 1978 were needed and are still working quite well.  

 

[B35 via Church]

11 hours ago, Future ENY OP said:

Something tells me that that B44 proposal to Coney Island Hospital will more likely get canned. There’s enough service provided on the B1, B4 and B68. Given there’s enough service at that corridor between Sheepshead Bay and Coney Island Hospital. Also, if I’m a bus rider between Williamsburg and Coney Island Hospital I’d scream hell for this. 

The proposed B36 would still go to CI Hospital.

Anyway, the fact of the matter is that diverting the B44+ to CI Hospital isn't a substitute for the proposed B4 no longer serving it (I honestly think they're stupid enough to believe it will be)... The B44 coming from points north of Av. Z & the B4's service area south of Av. Z are literally diametrically opposed to one another..... Worse than that, the B36 & the proposed B44 would parallel each other from Av. U/Nostrand to CI Hospital... To make the B36 that much more useless (as plenty of folks currently xfer from the B44 to the B36 along Nostrand - with most usually doing so at the B36's first stop) to have the B4 run straight on Neptune to Stillwell? Never mind subjecting the B44+ to the traffic along Av. Z....

They can take this part of the plan & shove it.

[BrooklynBus]

44 minutes ago, Ex696 said:

But Linden lacks the connection to the  and , though.

 

I would keep the B15 as well to go to the airport. We really need about four airport routes, and they can’t have two?

[BrooklynBus]

15 minutes ago, Interested Rider said:

You are the one who proposed this sometime ago and when it was proposed originally, I said it was unworkable and your data was flawed. It seems that Operations Planning adopted your proposal and they included it in the redesign. Now you are back with the Kingsborough proposal which I also said was unworkable and would make the situation worse but you keep bringing  it up on this forum. Leave the B/44 select bus alone as the route is long enough. 

There is a need for a change on the B/44 local and select bus terminals from Avenue U to Avenue X especially during the weekday select bus midday hours. This will help the B/44 local and select bus and the B/36 as well.

I have looked at the re=routing of the B/49 from Manhattan Beach to Coney Island and the B/4 via Neptune Avenue ,and Coney Island Hospital and take the position both routes remain as is. In reading your posts on these two routes here you agree with operations planning that changes must be made.  What you and operations panning  forget the key here that connects the routes and the reason that remain as is that both routes serve the main 11235 post office on Avenue Z that would not available.

Operations planning is proposing that the B/68 replace the B/49 in Manhattan Beach. Another thing that should be buried.

The changes that were made in November 1978 were needed and are still working quite well.  

 

When you say “proposed this”, I assume you are talking about the B55 (B34 in my proposal) If so, why do you feel it’s unworkable or are you talking about something else?

It’s more difficult to turn buses at Avenue X, but there are school specials that do turn there in the midday. Maybe they need more of them. 
 

As for the B4, I am fine with leaving it as is. I am only saying if it does get changed as they suggest, the B36 needs to be rerouted to Shell Road to maintain Beach Haven Service and has the benefit of being one straight Avenue Z route. Since there is now an entrance to Coney Island Hospital on Avenue Z, the issue of it missing the hospital is a non-issue. 
 

I agree about the November 1978 changes, most of which were mine. However, the B49 is not working as well as it did in 1978. Back then serving the subway station was only a six minute diversion. Now with all the added traffic, it can take up to 15 minutes extra. Not very good for through riders. That is part of the reason for my B44 SBS proposal because, students would save that 15 minutes and another 10 from the limited stops and all-door boarding. 
 

It’s a much better idea than flipping the B49 and B68 terminals which only one person supports who doesn’t live in the area. 
 

As far as making the B44 longer, I am only proposing one stop at West End and Oriental after the bus leaves Nostrand Avenue. If the bus uses Shore Blvd instead of Ocean Ave and enters the campus on Shore Blvd if the school allows, I don’t think you need any stops after Nostrand.

 

[BrooklynBus]

28 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

The proposed B36 would still go to CI Hospital.

Anyway, the fact of the matter is that diverting the B44+ to CI Hospital isn't a substitute for the proposed B4 no longer serving it (I honestly think they're stupid enough to believe it will be)... The B44 coming from points north of Av. Z & the B4's service area south of Av. Z are literally diametrically opposed to one another..... Worse than that, the B36 & the proposed B44 would parallel each other from Av. U/Nostrand to CI Hospital... To make the B36 that much more useless (as plenty of folks currently xfer from the B44 to the B36 along Nostrand - with most usually doing so at the B36's first stop) to have the B4 run straight on Neptune to Stillwell? Never mind subjecting the B44+ to the traffic along Av. Z....

They can take this part of the plan & shove it.

I agree with you, but I don’t think they are thinking the B36 SBS is a substitute for the B4. It is for a few blocks along Avenue Z only coming from the east. I think they just feel few are using it to get to the hospital and it won’t be missed. Personally, in 1978, I thought it was a little overkill, and I proposed something similar to what they are proposing now, but the MTA insisted then, that the B4 serve CI Hospital. 

[Ex696]

...JFK service is being removed and replaced with the B55, which is bad because a lot of Bed-Stuy riders use it along with riders from the Church Avenue corridor using it as well, so I don't know whether the B55 will be able to handle the demand...on the other hand, the extension to Montrose is great, gives  riders one-seat ride to certain areas of Bed-Stuy without having to transfer to another train or bus, although I think removing service from Lewis Avenue is less than desirable since the next north-bound only corridor are two blocks away in either direction, although I would be interested to see how it being interlined with the  will work out, speaking of...

...Now being interlined with the B15 and moved to Marcus Garvey Boulevard, which will be interesting, however, the loss of service on Tompkins Avenue is bad for the same reasons as the loss of service on Lewis Avenue. The B10 is there on Empire Boulevard to provide some limited-stop service, which is decent for those Empire Boulevard riders


...No changes other than the full-time extension to 1st Avenue, which is great, I guess....

/B55...Extension to JFK would be great if it didn't take away from the B15 service there as well, don't see any reason why they can't co-exist...hope they are planning on making some type of busway or enforcing the bus lanes there because the is really lackluster as a limited due to the traffic there and the short stop spacing west of New York Avenue...I talked to a lot of people and they want the B55 going all the way to 1st Avenue, but barely anybody rides it there and most of the ridership starts picking up east of 9th Avenue, so I think if a different western terminus were to be picked, 9th Avenue  would be optimal, not saying I have a problem with the current terminal at Church Avenue , which is fine as is.
 

[B35 via Church]

1 hour ago, BrooklynBus said:

I agree with you, but I don’t think they are thinking the B36 SBS is a substitute for the B4. It is for a few blocks along Avenue Z only coming from the east. I think they just feel few are using it to get to the hospital and it won’t be missed. Personally, in 1978, I thought it was a little overkill, and I proposed something similar to what they are proposing now, but the MTA insisted then, that the B4 serve CI Hospital. 

* B44 SBS.

What you're saying there in bold, is one of the reasons why I believe they're using the B44+ & its resources as a substitute for the B4...

6 minutes ago, Ex696 said:

...No changes other than the full-time extension to 1st Avenue, which is great, I guess....

Lol.... Having locals run to Sunset Park from Brownsville isn't great at all.... That's how things were before LTD's became a thing.... To riders, I'd say what masked how long the average B35 runtimes were, was the sheer frequency of the route back then....

I think it's nothing short of asinine to have the locals run the full route of the current B35 LTD, to have this B55 be the skip-stop service along Church, running out to JFK... Buses along Church av (the locals and/or this B55) are going to be more delayed than B15's get b/w JFK & Woodhull....

[Ex696]

4 minutes ago, B35 via Church said:

Lol.... Having locals run to Sunset Park from Brownsville isn't great at all.... That's how things were before LTD's became a thing.... To riders, I'd say what masked how long the average B35 runtimes were, was the sheer frequency of the route back then....

Should the B55 be extended to 9th Avenue or 4th Avenue/36th Street then? There is very low ridership at 1st Avenue and I don't think the B35 and B55 both need to be there.