Gotham Bus Co. Posted July 23, 2023 Share #926 Posted July 23, 2023 1 minute ago, Ex696 said: What about the B5/B6 situation? I think it would be a better idea to have the B6 Limited go to Gateway and the B6 Local go to New Lots Avenue station. It would have been a good opportunity to split the B6 into two (or more) shorter, overlapping routes. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex696 Posted July 23, 2023 Share #927 Posted July 23, 2023 4 minutes ago, Gotham Bus Co. said: It would have been a good opportunity to split the B6 into two (or more) shorter, overlapping routes. What makes you think it would need to be split? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q43LTD Posted July 23, 2023 Share #928 Posted July 23, 2023 Then there's the B10/12 situation. I feel the 10 should have went to City Line Cypress Hills 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lex Posted July 23, 2023 Share #929 Posted July 23, 2023 3 hours ago, Ex696 said: What makes you think it would need to be split? The fact that you're asking this question tells me you aren't remotely familiar with the B6. The route is a long route with three distinct bases. The first base is between Ulmer Park Depot (Bensonhurst/Bath Beach) and Flatbush Avenue. The second is between Coney Island Avenue and Rockaway Parkway. The third is just the last bit between Rockaway Parkway and New Lots Avenue. As a long route that needs a fair few turns to more effectively serve these bases while having a tendency to get stuck in traffic and generally run slower than a route doing what it does needs to, it would be far better to split it into at least two routes that overlap between Flatbush Avenue and Coney Island Avenue than it would be to maintain the one route. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex696 Posted July 23, 2023 Share #930 Posted July 23, 2023 16 minutes ago, Lex said: The fact that you're asking this question tells me you aren't remotely familiar with the B6. The route is a long route with three distinct bases. The first base is between Ulmer Park Depot (Bensonhurst/Bath Beach) and Flatbush Avenue. The second is between Coney Island Avenue and Rockaway Parkway. The third is just the last bit between Rockaway Parkway and New Lots Avenue. As a long route that needs a fair few turns to more effectively serve these bases while having a tendency to get stuck in traffic and generally run slower than a route doing what it does needs to, it would be far better to split it into at least two routes that overlap between Flatbush Avenue and Coney Island Avenue than it would be to maintain the one route. I am familiar with it, I've ridden it multiple times and a lot of people from the Bay Parkway segment that have rode through Flatbush Avenue and people that have through rode from sections east of Flatbush Avenue to parts west of Coney Island Avenue. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex696 Posted July 23, 2023 Share #931 Posted July 23, 2023 Any opinions of B82 Local rerouted to have the same path of B82-SBS and B82 local being cut from Coney Island to Bensonhurst? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B35 via Church Posted July 23, 2023 Share #932 Posted July 23, 2023 13 hours ago, Ex696 said: Do you guys have any opinions about the B48/B69 swap? I don't think it's a good idea because people in the portion of Downtown Brooklyn the current B69 serves aren't looking for Bed-Stuy and the portion of Williamsburg and Greenpoint the current B48 serve are not looking for Park Slope or Kensington, and also comes at the additional cost of overnight service because while the B48's overnight service is being eliminated, the B69 wouldn't be gaining any either, and the B69 still suffers from having its frequencies interlocked with the B67, which does nothing but penalize riders on the individual sections of the routes, which doesn't have a huge effect on the B67 since the B41 shares it's routing with it, but Vanderbilt Avenue only has the B69, which prevents its ridership from being higher than it most likely would be. Lol, Downtown Brooklyn portion of the B69.... That's rich; someone defending that fringe portion of the route that sees minuscule patronage at best... Anyway, my opinion of the swap is that it's interesting at best (on the B48 side) & odd at best (on the B69 side).... Interesting for the proposed B48, although I do see the having of it end at Church av as being problematic.... It would be counterproductive from a traffic standpoint to have buses turning on/off of Church av in that immediate area.... They may as well leave it up there at Prospect Park ... Like I said in an earlier post in this thread, I can see that B48 being more of a quote-unquote transfer route, than anyone relying on it to get to/from any establishment and/or residence along/around the route.... The proposed B69 OTOH, doesn't appear to have a rhyme or reason to it, outside of merely replacing that part of the current B48 with *something*.... Like I said in an earlier post in this thread, I would split this proposed B69 to where the southern portion would (still) run to Cortelyou on the southern end, to run to WBP on the northern end (if not for directly having it serve "hipster" Williamsburg in some fashion).... The northern portion (as in, north of Flushing av of the proposed B69) would be combined with that proposed B27... 13 hours ago, Q43LTD said: I still feel the 69 could have went back to Prospect Park SW.... You mean Prospect Park West (as in, the pre-2010 routing that had it running along 8th & 9th [aka Prospect Park W]) ? Prospect Park SW is where the B68 runs along, to eventually end along..... 13 hours ago, Ex696 said: Yes, it could allow them to have their separate frequencies again so that Vanderbilt Avenue riders can have the real service they deserve. The 49/68 swap, don't really know how to feel about it, but it would be way better than the 48/69 swap. Also, I don't know how many people from Vanderbilt Avenue ride through to the 7th Avenue portion, so I don't know if cutting the B69 to Park Slope like proposed is a good idea. What are you deeming "real service" for Vanderbilt av. riders to be? Because the "separate frequency" of the B69 when it ran along 8th/9th avenues were worse than the current B69.... Anyway, there's a very very little amount of through riding through Grand Army Plaza, but that's hardly the issue as to the main reason cutting the B69 back to its previous terminal (Park Slope - 20th st) isn't that good of an idea.... Unless they plan on increasing the proposed B67's headways, the McDonald av. portion of the route would end up losing service.... In other words, the patronage the two routes (B67/B69) currently garner between [Church/McDonald] & [7th/Flatbush] are far greater than [anyone from along 7th riding past 7th av ] or [anyone along Vanderbilt riding south of Grand Army Plaza ]..... 13 hours ago, BrooklynBus said: The B49/68 swap is a horrible idea which is why it received so much criticism. Only one person likes it and he lives in Southeast Queens and doesn’t use the route. ...and it is people like that one goofball in question that the MTA tends to give credence to, too..... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B35 via Church Posted July 23, 2023 Share #933 Posted July 23, 2023 12 hours ago, Ex696 said: What about the B5/B6 situation? I think it would be a better idea to have the B6 Limited go to Gateway and the B6 Local go to New Lots Avenue station. I think it'd be a better idea if the Limited services weren't separate services in the first place (proposed B5 LTD, B6 LTD).... For starters, you do not need B6 LTD's and B103 LTD's (even with their scaling back of it to the Junction) both running to New Lots ... For all that, the proposed B5 wouldn't need to be a thing to begin with & the B103 could've ran down to Gateway Center instead..... Nor do you need concurrent LTD services along the current B6 corridor running to either [New Lots (proposed B6 LTD)] or [Gateway Center (proposed B5 LTD)].... They're complicating things along the corridor for no real reason..... 12 hours ago, Gotham Bus Co. said: It would have been a good opportunity to split the B6 into two (or more) shorter, overlapping routes. Hell, I was expecting a split of the route, myself... 9 hours ago, Q43LTD said: Then there's the B10/12 situation. I feel the 10 should have went to City Line Cypress Hills While it would fill a service gap, I'm vehemently against that B10 because it'd take away from the current B12.... Running that B10 to City Line would be quite the troll move I remember the days where I'd wait for the B12 after getting off at Alabama av , where I'd walk the one stop back (where that MTA Bus Command Center is at, laterally across the street from the ENY Depot) to avert the crowds all waiting at ENY av/Fulton st for the bus... Surprised how many people didn't take advantage of that.... Everybody damn cramming onto the bus at Fulton, whereas I was either one of, if not THE only passenger on the bus, before it hit Fulton .... That's how poorly utilized those City Line B12's along Liberty used to be.... It's crazy it lasted for as long as it did.... Even funnier, there are some of the "lollipop" style bus stops that still read B12 Cypress Hills to this day.... Like, FFS, get with the times already - but of course, I have to consider the source / what we're actually dealing with here.... Sure, it got to a point where the (then) short turn B12's to Alabama were twice (if not 3x at one point) as frequent than those old City Line B12's, but IDC, that walk back to the one stop was well worth it for me 7 hours ago, Ex696 said: I am familiar with it, I've ridden it multiple times and a lot of people from the Bay Parkway segment that have rode through Flatbush Avenue and people that have through rode from sections east of Flatbush Avenue to parts west of Coney Island Avenue. It still doesn't represent the vast majority of B6 riders from points east of the Junction, nor does it represent the vast majority of B6 riders west of Bay Pkwy .... Most of the former are off the bus at Nostrand av. & most of the latter are off the bus at Flatbush av.... In the grand scheme of things (as in, the cumulative patronage of the route), there simply isn't all this through riding going on from each of those segments of the route, to the level/extent like it appears you're trying to convey here.... 7 hours ago, Ex696 said: Any opinions of B82 Local rerouted to have the same path of B82-SBS and B82 local being cut from Coney Island to Bensonhurst? Yes, and it's the same opinion I have for them opting to take away the B68 & the B82 out of Coney Island, to have the god damn B49 run there instead.... Absolutely Moronic with a capital M..... Not that I was remotely gung-ho on the decision to have combined the old B5 & old B50 to form today's B82 to begin with, but I still have to defend today's B82 here..... Baffling enough that it was like pulling teeth for them to have extended the B82 from the middle-of-a-bunch-of-much-of-nothing inparticular (Cropsey/Canal) to Coney Island.... The extension flourished throughout the course of time (I'd say patronage out of Mermaid loop on the B82 & the B68 are about even - both doing pretty good for themselves), and now they want to scale back service to where all B82 service terminates at the depot (Ulmer Park)... Guaranteed that train usage out of CI will increase that much more, because there are a decent amt. of people that use the B68 & the B82 interchangeably b/w Coney Island - Stillwell av. subway & [Kings Hwy/Coney Island av].... I just want to see how they're going to effectively pull off having B5 LTD's, B6 locals, B6 LTD's, B82 locals, and B82 SBS' all terminating at Ulmer Park Depot 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q43LTD Posted July 23, 2023 Share #934 Posted July 23, 2023 1 hour ago, B35 via Church said: You mean Prospect Park West (as in, the pre-2010 routing that had it running along 8th & 9th [aka Prospect Park W]) ? Prospect Park SW is where the B68 runs along, to eventually end along..... Yes, that's what I meant. I wonder is Coney Island being overserved in this redesign 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex696 Posted July 23, 2023 Share #935 Posted July 23, 2023 2 hours ago, B35 via Church said: Lol, Downtown Brooklyn portion of the B69.... That's rich; someone defending that fringe portion of the route that sees minuscule patronage at best... Anyway, my opinion of the swap is that it's interesting at best (on the B48 side) & odd at best (on the B69 side).... Interesting for the proposed B48, although I do see the having of it end at Church av as being problematic.... It would be counterproductive from a traffic standpoint to have buses turning on/off of Church av in that immediate area.... They may as well leave it up there at Prospect Park ... Like I said in an earlier post in this thread, I can see that B48 being more of a quote-unquote transfer route, than anyone relying on it to get to/from any establishment and/or residence along/around the route.... The proposed B69 OTOH, doesn't appear to have a rhyme or reason to it, outside of merely replacing that part of the current B48 with *something*.... Like I said in an earlier post in this thread, I would split this proposed B69 to where the southern portion would (still) run to Cortelyou on the southern end, to run to WBP on the northern end (if not for directly having it serve "hipster" Williamsburg in some fashion).... The northern portion (as in, north of Flushing av of the proposed B69) would be combined with that proposed B27... You mean Prospect Park West (as in, the pre-2010 routing that had it running along 8th & 9th [aka Prospect Park W]) ? Prospect Park SW is where the B68 runs along, to eventually end along..... What are you deeming "real service" for Vanderbilt av. riders to be? Because the "separate frequency" of the B69 when it ran along 8th/9th avenues were worse than the current B69.... Anyway, there's a very very little amount of through riding through Grand Army Plaza, but that's hardly the issue as to the main reason cutting the B69 back to its previous terminal (Park Slope - 20th st) isn't that good of an idea.... Unless they plan on increasing the proposed B67's headways, the McDonald av. portion of the route would end up losing service.... In other words, the patronage the two routes (B67/B69) currently garner between [Church/McDonald] & [7th/Flatbush] are far greater than [anyone from along 7th riding past 7th av ] or [anyone along Vanderbilt riding south of Grand Army Plaza ]..... ...and it is people like that one goofball in question that the MTA tends to give credence to, too..... What about that B81 route that's supposed to "replace" B103 service between Park Slope and Flatbush Junction? I thought it was gonna run alongside the B67 from Park Slope to Cortelyou Road. And speaking of the B81, it mirrors the B77, which a lot of people have proposed bringing back ever since it was cut, and while it's good that there cries were finally heard, I really don't think it' s a good idea for it to be "replacing" the B103 there without boosting service on the B37...the frequencies on that that route are horrendous and people will most likely just use the B41 or the . 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B35 via Church Posted July 23, 2023 Share #936 Posted July 23, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Q43LTD said: ...I wonder (is) Coney Island being overserved in this redesign B36, B64, and B74 remain constants.... Instead of the B68 & the B82, they have the B49 & the B4 (whilst up along Neptune, to turn up Stillwell).... That frees up space inside Mermaid loop for the B64.... Unless I'm missing something, I'm not seeing how CI is being overserved at all.... The issue AFAIC has less to do with total BPH in/out of CI & far more to do with which routes they plan on reconfiguring to serve it. 1 hour ago, Ex696 said: What about that B81 route that's supposed to "replace" B103 service between Park Slope and Flatbush Junction? I thought it was gonna run alongside the B67 from Park Slope to Cortelyou Road. And speaking of the B81, it mirrors the B77, which a lot of people have proposed bringing back ever since it was cut, and while it's good that there cries were finally heard, I really don't think it' s a good idea for it to be "replacing" the B103 there without boosting service on the B37...the frequencies on that that route are horrendous and people will most likely just use the B41 or the . That B81 won't be any sort of viable alternative for most B103 passengers seeking service past the Junction, as it dies in Red Hook.... They're not going to get those folks off the B103 to consider taking those B41XT's (smfh) at the Junction either.... They're going to bolt for the subway, point blank (which is clearly what they want anyway)... While B37 service being utter garbage is true, it's a separate issue... The current B103 on 3rd av is almost all dropoffs; virtually nobody uses the NB B103 & the NB B37 interchangeably.... The rally cries of bringing back of the B77 have ceased, since today's B61 essentially took its place... This B81 is just another layer of service b/w Red Hook & Park Slope that they have running to the Junction.... They'd have gotten roasted, charred, broiled, fricasseed, etc, that much more than they are now, if they were to scale the B103 back to the Junction to extend the B61 to the Junction... So they created another layer of service instead.... Being perfectly honest, I think that proposed B81 will end up garnering more total ridership than the total number of B103 riders riding b/w the Junction & Cadman Plaza.... If you notice, they've been quietly cutting B103 trips to/from Downtown anyway & adding more of those Canarsie - Junction short turns over the years.... Edited July 23, 2023 by B35 via Church 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex696 Posted July 23, 2023 Share #937 Posted July 23, 2023 Is splitting the B41 Bergen Beach branch into a separate route a good idea? Bergen Beach riders lose their one seat ride to Downtown Brooklyn in exchange for Kings Plaza getting more service. And speaking of Flatbush Avenue, MTA is allegedly working with the DOT to make travel times on Flatbush Avenue faster, possibly through a busway. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B35 via Church Posted July 23, 2023 Share #938 Posted July 23, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Ex696 said: Is splitting the B41 Bergen Beach branch into a separate route a good idea? Bergen Beach riders lose their one seat ride to Downtown Brooklyn in exchange for Kings Plaza getting more service. And speaking of Flatbush Avenue, MTA is allegedly working with the DOT to make travel times on Flatbush Avenue faster, possibly through a busway. While the demand warrants it, the fact of the matter is that you're seriously hard pressed for space at Kings Plaza for any real influx of B41 service... Even with the B2's potential eradication.... They'll have to play musical chairs as to what stops where at Kings Plaza; my guess would be to have the B9 take up that secondary lane that the current B2 & B41 picks up at, and have that whole/primary curbside area dedicated to B41's & B46's.... The SBS would have its own shelter & have the B41 & B46 local have a free for all behind the B46 SBS... Lol.... Having the B41 Bergen Beach branch stop dead at Empire (regardless if it's given a new route number) is nothing more than a service cut. A busway on Flatbush sounds nice on the surface, but to me, it's a day late & a dollar short... People have voted with their feet & aren't remotely relying on B41's no where near to the level that they used to anymore..... Those efforts/dollars should be spent on implementing a busway somewhere's else in this city..... Edited July 23, 2023 by B35 via Church 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex696 Posted July 24, 2023 Share #939 Posted July 24, 2023 3 hours ago, B35 via Church said: While the demand warrants it, the fact of the matter is that you're seriously hard pressed for space at Kings Plaza for any real influx of B41 service... Even with the B2's potential eradication.... They'll have to play musical chairs as to what stops where at Kings Plaza; my guess would be to have the B9 take up that secondary lane that the current B2 & B41 picks up at, and have that whole/primary curbside area dedicated to B41's & B46's.... The SBS would have its own shelter & have the B41 & B46 local have a free for all behind the B46 SBS... Lol.... On the topic of the B2 being eliminated, the B100 is being marketed as it's alternative and it's service isn't being increased at all, and the B100 is already crowded during rush hours as is...it is nice the B100 is rerouted along Avenue R so they don't lose service...but most people at Kings Plaza will likely use the B9 as their Kings Plaza-Brighton Line connection instead of taking a bus then transferring to the B100...after all, the B9 having been extended to Kings Plaza was the whole reason the B2 lost a huge amount of ridership. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikecintel Posted July 24, 2023 Share #940 Posted July 24, 2023 Update Brooklyn Bus Redesign will go in effect in 2026. So that means 3 years from now. I got it from another site and it states: Staten Island Express Bus Redesign Network 2018 then had Bronx Local Bus Redesign Network 2022 Next Year it's Queens Bus Redesign Network 2024 rest a Brooklyn Bus Redesign Network 2026. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MysteriousBtrain Posted July 24, 2023 Share #941 Posted July 24, 2023 (edited) 11 minutes ago, mikecintel said: Update Brooklyn Bus Redesign will go in effect in 2026. So that means 3 years from now. I got it from another site and it states: Staten Island Express Bus Redesign Network 2018 then had Bronx Local Bus Redesign Network 2022 Next Year it's Queens Bus Redesign Network 2024 rest a Brooklyn Bus Redesign Network 2026. 1. What website are you getting this information from? 2. What about the Manhattan bus redesign? 3. Is there note of a Staten Island Local bus redesign? Edited July 24, 2023 by MysteriousBtrain 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikecintel Posted July 24, 2023 Share #942 Posted July 24, 2023 (edited) 59 minutes ago, MysteriousBtrain said: 1. What website are you getting this information from? 2. What about the Manhattan bus redesign? 3. Is there note of a Staten Island Local bus redesign? I got this from FB page that I subscribe too. I don't know if the forum allows you to advertise Facebook links or not so that is why I did not link it. Now since you mention it I will link the page to it. The page didn't say anything about the 2 question you asked so hence that is why I pasted what I paste. Here is the link https://www.facebook.com/groups/2461933217469066/ I hope this helps. This is where I get all my info about the Queens bus Redesign. There is also a Brooklyn Bus Redesign link from FB and here it is https://www.facebook.com/groups/632231551145285/ As of now there is NO Manhattan bus redesign in FB yet. As for Staten Island I can't find anything. Edited July 24, 2023 by mikecintel 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nova Fly Guy Posted July 24, 2023 Share #943 Posted July 24, 2023 (edited) On 7/22/2023 at 9:17 PM, Ex696 said: What makes you think it would need to be split? You can’t split the B6 as there are a good amount of people that use about 80% from ENY to 86 St, A better option would have been to send the B103 down Vandalla or Fountain to Gateway not New Lots. you could eliminate the B6 Lcl altogether and let the B5 run local to Gateway. Edited July 24, 2023 by Nova Fly Guy 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gotham Bus Co. Posted July 24, 2023 Share #944 Posted July 24, 2023 1 hour ago, Nova Fly Guy said: You can’t split the B6 as there are a good amount of people that use about 80% from ENY to 86 St, Exactly how many is "a good amount"? If there really is substantial end-to-end (or at least very-long-haul) demand, then maybe the answer is to keep full-length Limiteds and split the local trips into overlapping routes. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrooklynBus Posted July 25, 2023 Share #945 Posted July 25, 2023 I don’t know where you got 2026 from. 13 hours ago, mikecintel said: Update Brooklyn Bus Redesign will go in effect in 2026. So that means 3 years from now. I got it from another site and it states: Staten Island Express Bus Redesign Network 2018 then had Bronx Local Bus Redesign Network 2022 Next Year it's Queens Bus Redesign Network 2024 rest a Brooklyn Bus Redesign Network 2026. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q43LTD Posted July 25, 2023 Share #946 Posted July 25, 2023 2026 sounds too far out. Wouldn't it be shortly after Queens is implemented? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikecintel Posted July 25, 2023 Share #947 Posted July 25, 2023 21 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said: I don’t know where you got 2026 from. Good Question I don't know too except if you go to the link that I posted in FB that is what the guy wrote. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikecintel Posted July 25, 2023 Share #948 Posted July 25, 2023 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Q43LTD said: 2026 sounds too far out. Wouldn't it be shortly after Queens is implemented? Yes I agree but the guy posted that states that but what I am thinking is because probably in 2024 there will be a 2nd engagement and "probably" it will be in 2025. May the guy who posted that made an error I don't know. I just post what the guy said if you click on that link that goes to FB for the Brooklyn Bus Redesign. Edited July 25, 2023 by mikecintel 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B35 via Church Posted July 25, 2023 Share #949 Posted July 25, 2023 21 hours ago, Ex696 said: On the topic of the B2 being eliminated, the B100 is being marketed as it's alternative and it's service isn't being increased at all, and the B100 is already crowded during rush hours as is...it is nice the B100 is rerouted along Avenue R so they don't lose service...but most people at Kings Plaza will likely use the B9 as their Kings Plaza-Brighton Line connection instead of taking a bus then transferring to the B100...after all, the B9 having been extended to Kings Plaza was the whole reason the B2 lost a huge amount of ridership. Most would resort to taking the B3. 14 hours ago, MysteriousBtrain said: 1. What website are you getting this information from? 2. What about the Manhattan bus redesign? 3. Is there note of a Staten Island Local bus redesign? 50 minutes ago, BrooklynBus said: I don’t know where you got 2026 from. 30 minutes ago, Q43LTD said: 2026 sounds too far out. Wouldn't it be shortly after Queens is implemented? IDK who the hell these people are; I'm not on social media.... Does the name "Daniel Christian" ring a bell to any of you? That is the person on that FB group in question that @mikecintel is referencing, that's alluding to the Brooklyn redesign being implemented in 2026... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q43LTD Posted July 25, 2023 Share #950 Posted July 25, 2023 11 minutes ago, B35 via Church said: IDK who the hell these people are; I'm not on social media.... Does the name "Daniel Christian" ring a bell to any of you? That is the person on that FB group in question that @mikecintel is referencing, that's alluding to the Brooklyn redesign being implemented in 2026... Thar name does not ring a bell. I'm not on any transit groups on Facebook 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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