CPW Deinterline: 8 Av vs 6 Av: Which should go Express? + Bonus Information

[Amiri the subway guy]

3 hours ago, Vulturious said:

Sharing isn't a bad idea, unfortunately that can't happen. Norwood is a 2 tracks island platform, only one line can terminate there because of how limited the capacity to turn trains around. You're right about the  not operating during late nights, but you can run service similar to how the  and  currently runs in Brooklyn with  to Norwood everyday except for late nights and the  taking over during that time. It might be confusing, but people will catch on and regardless, most people will usually take  trains anyway most of that time so it wouldn't matter much.

That’s work good. For the other  deinterlinings I see other routes would also need to be modified 

[Amiri the subway guy]

3 hours ago, Vulturious said:

Sharing isn't a bad idea, unfortunately that can't happen. Norwood is a 2 tracks island platform, only one line can terminate there because of how limited the capacity to turn trains around. You're right about the  not operating during late nights, but you can run service similar to how the  and  currently runs in Brooklyn with  to Norwood everyday except for late nights and the  taking over during that time. It might be confusing, but people will catch on and regardless, most people will usually take  trains anyway most of that time so it wouldn't matter much.

The  should become full length to allow for a smoother swap. The R211 order hopefully got that covered

[Vulturious]

1 minute ago, Amiri the subway guy said:

The  should become full length to allow for a smoother swap. The R211 order hopefully got that covered

There's a chance the  isn't becoming full length yet even with the R211's coming in. I suspect that it'll be at least deep into the first order option or even starting on the second order option when we actually start seeing more full length trains. 8 Av CBTC limits 6 Av and seeing how often they ran  trains along 8 Av, I've also been hearing (not entirely true, can change obviously) that  trains are getting the base order with whatever R211's taking out the R46's from the  with the 8 car R179's staying where they are. Again, it might not be true or if it is, it can change at any moment.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

On 11/22/2021 at 7:40 PM, Amiri the subway guy said:

I was just stating how the  could truly be sent to Lefferts Blvd. since under the current pattern the  being sent to lefferts will result in another merge conflict with the  at Euclid Avenue so Fulton Street should remain the same. I in favor of 8th Avenue express and 6th Avenue local. The  would remain the same. The  would run to 168th Street Central Park West local The  would run to Bedford Park Blvd Central Park West Express. The  would to Norwood 205th Street Central Park West Local. During Weekends the  would stop at 163rd Street and 155th Street and run all local during late nights since the  is a weekday route only. The  still wont operate during late nights. 

It seems like the consensus on the Forums favors running the  local and the  express. I guess it’s not too big of a concern if the CPW local stations are served by a different train ()  than the 8th Ave local stations (  ).

On 11/22/2021 at 9:10 PM, Vulturious said:

Ah okay, but there's a slight issue with this plan.

You're going to need to swap the  and  in terms of terminals so you don't have crossover merging involved. You didn't say which line is running express along Concourse. If  trains are express, 145 St won't have any merging unless  trains are running express which shouldn't. Bedford Park Blvd was built to have express trains continue further past it because express tracks only have access to the outer tracks with the middle track mainly used either a short-turn or a terminal. There is no other way to relay on the outer tracks unless trains use the yard leads to Concourse Yard. 

I didn’t realize that myself until one time I took the  home from high school and found my train waiting outside Bedford Park Blvd for the previous  to turn back to Manhattan. I could tell that they used flyover (or “flyunder”) tracks instead of switches between Kingsbridge and Bedford.

On 11/23/2021 at 6:10 PM, Vulturious said:

Sharing isn't a bad idea, unfortunately that can't happen. Norwood is a 2 tracks island platform, only one line can terminate there because of how limited the capacity to turn trains around. You're right about the  not operating during late nights, but you can run service similar to how the  and  currently runs in Brooklyn with  to Norwood everyday except for late nights and the  taking over during that time. It might be confusing, but people will catch on and regardless, most people will usually take  trains anyway most of that time so it wouldn't matter much.

Pretty much. Yes, I guess the would extend to 205 when the doesn’t run. Interestingly, the was the first train to serve 205th St. That’s because the Concourse Line opened up years before the 6th Ave Line did.

[mrsman]

If the only change that you make in the name of deinterlining, is to deinterline CPW, then making  express and  local will have fewer changes to the rest of the system.   express will remain express down 8th Ave continuing to the Cranberry tunnel allowing  to be a sole local and terminating at WTC.  This avoids the Canal merge.  If AC were local then E would be forced to be express and one of the two services (A or C) would have to merge at Canal to continue into the Cranberry tunnel.  It's more of a major change to have  run to Brooklyn and  terminate at WTC. 

If one is worried about the "politics" involved and whether changes in the name of deinterlining would be accepted by the key figures at MTA and for the local population groups, then AC express BD local would be an easier pill to swallow, since the only changes being made would be along the CPW corridor and not on the rest of the system.

Of course, if you want to make changes to the QBL routes, in particular, that may change which set of CPW lines.  I think the key to choosing between AC exp - BD local OR AC local - BD exp is to see what happens with the other services along 6th, 8th, and Broadway.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

Well, if you leave QBL as is or simply swap the  and ‘s tunnels and deinterline CPW with  express /  local, then the  becomes the sole 8th Ave local. But it would have to run on the same frequency (15 tph) as now because it would still be sharing with the .  With the  moved over to the express tracks, that would result in a cut to 8th Avenue Local service. 

Perhaps a deinterlined QBL could possibly mitigate the loss of 8th Ave local service with a  express in Manhattan. Maybe by running all 53 St Tunnel-bound trains local and all 63rd St Tunnel-bound trains express in Queens, it might be possible to run a more frequent  and with the  on the same 8-9 tph as now. Depends how well Transit can turn trains at 71st Ave, of course.

[mrsman]

On 11/25/2021 at 11:21 PM, T to Dyre Avenue said:

Well, if you leave QBL as is or simply swap the  and ‘s tunnels and deinterline CPW with  express /  local, then the  becomes the sole 8th Ave local. But it would have to run on the same frequency (15 tph) as now because it would still be sharing with the .  With the  moved over to the express tracks, that would result in a cut to 8th Avenue Local service. 

Perhaps a deinterlined QBL could possibly mitigate the loss of 8th Ave local service with a  express in Manhattan. Maybe by running all 53 St Tunnel-bound trains local and all 63rd St Tunnel-bound trains express in Queens, it might be possible to run a more frequent  and with the  on the same 8-9 tph as now. Depends how well Transit can turn trains at 71st Ave, of course.

Absolutely.  A deinterlining along the above linew would result in a loss of 8th Ave local service.  The question is whether it leaves acceptable service in its place.  The 8th Ave local only uniquely services the following stations: WTC, Spring, 23rd, and 50th.  WTC is within the same complex as Canal on the AC, so no real loss.  Spring is a relatively quiet station, so while it's not great to lose service, it's not catastrophic either.  23rd and 50th are a bit more troubling, but still within the realm of doable.  

I am meaining to do a bit of a longer post on some deinterlining points.  I think that I will address in my next post.

[mrsman]

Many of us know that deinterlining generally would resolve a lot of the merging conflicts that plague the system, especially the B division.  Many of us wonder why the N merges from express to local in Manhattan, why the CPW lines criss-cross at 59th, and why we have the whole Gold St mess near DeKalb in Brooklyn.  Certainly we can all propose fixes to address these issues to allow for better train flow.  Alas, the devil is in the details.

There are a number of constraints that exist within the B division that prevent the "perfect" deinterlining plan.  Two key ones are that the 8th Ave local basically dead ends at WTC, preventing  a full capacity of locals flowing south at that point.  The other key one is that the BMT eastern division has short platforms, so to the extent that we are keeping an M service to midtown, the M service cannot run full-length trains and therefore cannot be linked with a busy service like QBL express.

If we were to separate the Broadway trains from QBL, which would certainly help with the delays on the Broadway line by making all expresses to 96th and all locals to Astoria, we would be limited to 7 services along the 6th and 8th system of trains (aka IND).  As is the case now, we cannot run 8 services over the 4 trunk lines (8th local, 8th express, 6th local, 6th express) since one of those trunk lines dead ends at WTC.

Can a de-interlining plan be made with the above constraints and still involve no merging within the CBD.  Yes.  This is the best plan that I have seen:

 CPW expresses - 6th Ave expresses - Man Bridge to Brooklyn

 CPW locals - 8th Ave local - WTC

 QBL expresses - 53rd tunnel - 8th Ave expresses - Cranberry tunnel

 QBL locals - 63rd tunnel - 6th Ave locals - Houston St - F to Culver, M to Myrtle

WIth Broadway lines being separated, this provides a full service component for many of the services.  BD are together, AE are together, FM are together for their entire runs between their initial northern merges (145th or Forest Hills) and their southern merges (southern Brooklyn, Hoyt-Schermerhorn, F/M split on the Lower East Side).  While  is depicted as one line, it could be two services (servicing 168th and BPB), but keep in mind that the combined total of  and  service cannot exceed the turning capacity of WTC.  Since  +  is greater than one services, but not as great as two normal services, so the number of trains running along the 8th Ave local would still be somewhat constrained by WTC.

All in all, the above is a very good plan.  Keeps expresses with expresses and locals with locals.  Relegates WTC with its limited capacity to the lowest demand line (CPW local).  And it maintains 4 full services along QBL without involving Broadway or .

My biggest problem is that the above plan will prevent QBL local passengers west of Roosevelt from accessing Queens Plaza and the potential jobs that are burgeoning in that area of LIC.  Ideally, I'd like the QBL expresses to run on 63rd and the QBL locals to run on 53rd.  Doing so would introduce at least one more merge somewhere within the bounds of the CBD.  It would also likely constrain the solitary line that terminates at WTC even more so than the above plan.

After a lot of ruminating, the plan that I came up with would still separate Broadway from QBL, allow QBL expresses to run into 63rd, and generally provide more service all around with only one CBD merge.  It's not perfect, but this is what I came up with:

  CPW expresses - 8th Ave expresses - Cranberry tunnel [no merging]

[M]  QBL locals - 53rd - 8th Ave locals - W4 switch - E to Culver and [M] to Myrtle.  [no merging between Forest Hills and Lower East Side.]

 CPW locals (could be two services like  to 168th and  to BPB) - 6th Ave express - Manhattan Bridge.  Limited to 20 TPH as it will merge with  near 6th/53rd.

 QBL express - 63rd street tunnel - 6th Ave local - W4 switch - service to WTC.  Limited to 20 TPH as it will merge with  near 6th/53rd.

 QBL express - 63rd street tunnel - 6th Ave express - Manhattan Bridge.  Limited to 10 TPH as it will merge with botrh  and  near 6th/53rd.

In essence, the D and F can both run 20 TPH so that the parts of the line where only one service run has at least 20 TPH of rush hour service.  This means the WTC-W4 line, th 6th Ave local north of W4, and the CPW local until 145th can all run 20 TPH rush hour service.  [That throughput is split north of 145th.]   will act as a service that runs between the two to make the busiest parts of both lines run at full capacity.  So B adds to F along the QBL express and B adds to D along the Manhattan Bridge.  The merge would certainly cause delays, but in some ways a merge of this sort is necessary, given all of the other constraints.

[This is similar to what I posted on 11/18.  Not perfect, but perhaps it is sufficient to greatly reduce merging within the system.]

[Spaverse]

I honestly think we should just leave things be on Central Park west. Commuted there for years, always appreciated the ability to get a one seat ride 

[T to Dyre Avenue]

I used to commute on the CPW line too. Always got held up at 59th, whether I took the  or the . And for some reason, every single time, it would always be the train across the platform from mine that left first. But not until after both trains sat in the station for at least a couple of minutes. I couldn’t be happy enough to get rid of that delay. 

Edited December 22, 2021 by T to Dyre Avenue

[MTA Researcher]

Apparently when we talk about deinterlining the system we get off topic from the premise of topic. That’s fine. Anyway I have been reading all these posts and I forged an idea. Here we go:

 

  207 - Far Rockaway: CPW/8 Av/Fulton St Exp

 205 - Lefferts Blvd: Concourse RH Exp - CPW/8 Av Exp - Fulton St Lcl

 179 - Coney Island: QBL Exp - 53rd St - 8 Av Lcl - W 4 Switch vía Rutgers St Tunnel - Culver

 168 St - Metropolitan Av: CPW/8 Av Lcl - W 4 Switch - Myrtle Av Lcl

 BPB/145 - Brighton Beach: Concourse RH Lcl - CPW Lcl - 6 Av Exp - Brighton Exp

 71 Av - WTC: QBL Lcl - 53rd St - 6 Av Lcl - W 4 Switch to WTC

 JC - Coney Island: QBL Exp - 63rd St - 6 Av Exp - Brighton Lcl

 Astoria - Coney Island: Bway/4 Av Exp vía Sea Beach - skips 49 St

 Remains unchanged

 96 St/2 Av - Coney Island: Bway/4 Av Exp via West End

 

Some routes must stay interlined, like the  Beyond Euclid Av with the intention to improve train frequency between Rockaway Blvd and Lefferts or Far Rockaway. Blue M took the form of the  and now upper level 50 St benefits while  go express and  goes upper level local.

Another route that must stay interlined is Broadway and the , with the intention to give Astoria folks direct access to Broadway Express.

[Vulturious]

1 hour ago, MTA Researcher said:

Apparently when we talk about deinterlining the system we get off topic from the premise of topic. That’s fine. Anyway I have been reading all these posts and I forged an idea. Here we go:

 

  207 - Far Rockaway: CPW/8 Av/Fulton St Exp

 205 - Lefferts Blvd: Concourse RH Exp - CPW/8 Av Exp - Fulton St Lcl

 179 - Coney Island: QBL Exp - 53rd St - 8 Av Lcl - W 4 Switch vía Rutgers St Tunnel - Culver

 168 St - Metropolitan Av: CPW/8 Av Lcl - W 4 Switch - Myrtle Av Lcl

 BPB/145 - Brighton Beach: Concourse RH Lcl - CPW Lcl - 6 Av Exp - Brighton Exp

 71 Av - WTC: QBL Lcl - 53rd St - 6 Av Lcl - W 4 Switch to WTC

 JC - Coney Island: QBL Exp - 63rd St - 6 Av Exp - Brighton Lcl

 Astoria - Coney Island: Bway/4 Av Exp vía Sea Beach - skips 49 St

 Remains unchanged

 96 St/2 Av - Coney Island: Bway/4 Av Exp via West End

 

Some routes must stay interlined, like the  Beyond Euclid Av with the intention to improve train frequency between Rockaway Blvd and Lefferts or Far Rockaway. Blue M took the form of the  and now upper level 50 St benefits while  go express and  goes upper level local.

Another route that must stay interlined is Broadway and the , with the intention to give Astoria folks direct access to Broadway Express.

While some areas seem to have improved like Brighton and 6 Av, CPW and 8 Av along with Broadway and 4 Av, there are still areas with interlining that in a way doesn't really have any improvements at least nothing significant.

The  and  running together helps out CPW and 8 Av a lot because there isn't that dumb merge between Hoyt-Schermerhorn Sts and Canal St. Both are running for a very long stretch together which allows them to increase capacity through Cranberry St tunnel. However, the  doesn't seem to have much improvements because the  is now in Queens. I would also say the same with the . If we focus on the 's side of things, it still has somewhat 3 different merges. 2 times with the  and the . Even during normal hours, the  would still be cutting off the  because it's terminating on the middle track at 145 St. During rush hours service might be running better because the  is running express, but that's only in the peak direction. The  would still have 2 merges and both times they involve the . Like I said, they run together for a good stretch from Downtown Brooklyn all the way into Uptown Manhattan. The merge at Euclid is where things might not run well, both lines are running together only to split up again at Rockaway Blvd. Personally, it's best to keep the  at Euclid. While it's cool to have the  becoming the 4-borough line it once was and also running express as a bonus, it doesn't really need to go to Lefferts since not many people are interested in sticking to the . People would ditch the  the first chance. Off topic, but it would be best to just keep the 's name as the M, the  would've still been around if people didn't speak up about keeping the M's name.

While there isn't much merging going on, the merging along Broadway is still an issue. Even if you were to move the merge further north around 57 St-7 Av, you still have every single line along Broadway delayed because the  has to switch. At this point, nothing is really changing for Broadway except for one line not sticking around which would still probably result in the same issue anyway.

Onto the QBL side of things and much like Broadway, nothing is changing. There aren't any improvements except for the fact that QBL has an express service that runs express on QBL as well as along 6 Av in Manhattan. It's basically running almost the same exact service.  trains in this scenario are basically running like the , running from Forest Hills local with the  only to splitting off from the  to merge with the . 

The only other thing I would be focusing on is how service would operate, specifically how late night and weekend service would run. To go further in detail:

• Starting off with the  and , which service would cut back? Neither of them can't not run (yes, I said what I said). Well, you could cut back the  if it ran express along Brighton and ran to Forest Hills instead of Jamaica Center. This way, the  sticks around running express while also not having that weird merging problem around Queens Plaza into Manhattan.  trains would then just cut back to what they used to run back in the 90's, but extended to Forest Hills. What I mean by this is it runs only during weekdays and no service late nights.  trains would basically run back along 63 St during other times the  isn't running. 
• Cutting the  back would not be a good idea, severing a full time connection between CPW and 6 Av that has been around for decades. Only way to fix this is to run  trains as a full time line including late nights, it'll run to Norwood-205 St as a replacement for  trains during late nights. 

The only areas that are improving is South Brooklyn trains running through Dekalb Av, 6 Av, and CPW which was basically the whole idea. This isn't to say it's a bad idea, in fact a lot is improved. CPW was the main objective for having service improvements, other areas are basically a bonus.

[Trainmaster5]

On 12/22/2021 at 12:27 PM, Spaverse said:

I honestly think we should just leave things be on Central Park west. Commuted there for years, always appreciated the ability to get a one seat ride 

I definitely agree with you 100% about the setup on CPW. The IND planners did the right thing with this idea. Express service for both trunks and local service for both. The plan benefits both trunks . Trains run for the public , not some foamers. That's why many old time posters left the forums years ago. The idea is to run services,  subway,  bus or railroad for the public. More or faster services that add transfers negate most perceived speed increases,  IMO. I remember the arguments in the bus forums about some SBS bus routes. B44SBS route was one example.  Faster than the regular B44  from end to end. Benefited the bean counters number wise  but no one except the bus operator rides from terminal to terminal. Transfers =delays we were taught. Unnecessary transfers were definitely a no-no in any scenario. I believe that I posted a decade ago that school car instruction was that if speed was your number one priority NASCAR or the Coney Island Cyclone should be your future. Just my opinion. YMMV. Carry on. 

[CenSin]

5 hours ago, Trainmaster5 said:

I definitely agree with you 100% about the setup on CPW. The IND planners did the right thing with this idea. Express service for both trunks and local service for both. The plan benefits both trunks . Trains run for the public , not some foamers. That's why many old time posters left the forums years ago. The idea is to run services,  subway,  bus or railroad for the public. More or faster services that add transfers negate most perceived speed increases,  IMO. I remember the arguments in the bus forums about some SBS bus routes. B44SBS route was one example.  Faster than the regular B44  from end to end. Benefited the bean counters number wise  but no one except the bus operator rides from terminal to terminal. Transfers =delays we were taught. Unnecessary transfers were definitely a no-no in any scenario. I believe that I posted a decade ago that school car instruction was that if speed was your number one priority NASCAR or the Coney Island Cyclone should be your future. Just my opinion. YMMV. Carry on. 

NASCAR and the Coney Island Cyclone takes you in circles though. You just end up right where you started a few minutes ago.

[mrsman]

16 hours ago, Vulturious said:

While some areas seem to have improved like Brighton and 6 Av, CPW and 8 Av along with Broadway and 4 Av, there are still areas with interlining that in a way doesn't really have any improvements at least nothing significant.

The  and  running together helps out CPW and 8 Av a lot because there isn't that dumb merge between Hoyt-Schermerhorn Sts and Canal St. Both are running for a very long stretch together which allows them to increase capacity through Cranberry St tunnel. However, the  doesn't seem to have much improvements because the  is now in Queens. I would also say the same with the . If we focus on the 's side of things, it still has somewhat 3 different merges. 2 times with the  and the . Even during normal hours, the  would still be cutting off the  because it's terminating on the middle track at 145 St. During rush hours service might be running better because the  is running express, but that's only in the peak direction. The  would still have 2 merges and both times they involve the . Like I said, they run together for a good stretch from Downtown Brooklyn all the way into Uptown Manhattan. The merge at Euclid is where things might not run well, both lines are running together only to split up again at Rockaway Blvd. Personally, it's best to keep the  at Euclid. While it's cool to have the  becoming the 4-borough line it once was and also running express as a bonus, it doesn't really need to go to Lefferts since not many people are interested in sticking to the . People would ditch the  the first chance. Off topic, but it would be best to just keep the 's name as the M, the  would've still been around if people didn't speak up about keeping the M's name.

While there isn't much merging going on, the merging along Broadway is still an issue. Even if you were to move the merge further north around 57 St-7 Av, you still have every single line along Broadway delayed because the  has to switch. At this point, nothing is really changing for Broadway except for one line not sticking around which would still probably result in the same issue anyway.

Onto the QBL side of things and much like Broadway, nothing is changing. There aren't any improvements except for the fact that QBL has an express service that runs express on QBL as well as along 6 Av in Manhattan. It's basically running almost the same exact service.  trains in this scenario are basically running like the , running from Forest Hills local with the  only to splitting off from the  to merge with the . 

The only other thing I would be focusing on is how service would operate, specifically how late night and weekend service would run. To go further in detail:

• Starting off with the  and , which service would cut back? Neither of them can't not run (yes, I said what I said). Well, you could cut back the  if it ran express along Brighton and ran to Forest Hills instead of Jamaica Center. This way, the  sticks around running express while also not having that weird merging problem around Queens Plaza into Manhattan.  trains would then just cut back to what they used to run back in the 90's, but extended to Forest Hills. What I mean by this is it runs only during weekdays and no service late nights.  trains would basically run back along 63 St during other times the  isn't running. 
• Cutting the  back would not be a good idea, severing a full time connection between CPW and 6 Av that has been around for decades. Only way to fix this is to run  trains as a full time line including late nights, it'll run to Norwood-205 St as a replacement for  trains during late nights. 

The only areas that are improving is South Brooklyn trains running through Dekalb Av, 6 Av, and CPW which was basically the whole idea. This isn't to say it's a bad idea, in fact a lot is improved. CPW was the main objective for having service improvements, other areas are basically a bonus.

I largely agree with this assessment.  Realistically, the easiest places to deinterline and remove merges are at DeKalb and CPW, which is largely accomplished here.  It would also be nice to remove the merger from express to local, but I know that that would be hard to do in practice.  The realilty on the Broadway line is that there are effectively two northern destinations on the local (Forest Hills, Astoria) and one northern destination on the express (96th).  Likewise, there are two southern destinations on the express (Sea Beach, West End) and one southern destination on the local (Bay Ridge).  The easy way of addressing this, is as MTA Researcher has done, 96th-West End via express,  Forest Hills-Bay Ridge via local, and Astoria-Sea Beach via express/local hybrid (due to the track merges).  Another idea is to run four services without merging between express and local, but this has the likelihood of overloading 96th and/or Bay Ridge.  This means 96th-West End, 96th-Sea Beach, Astoria-Bay Ridge, Forest Hills-Bay Ridge.  Another idea would still involve track merges, but moving those further away from Midtown.  This means something like 96th-West End, 96th-Sea Beach, Astoria-Bay Pkwy (West End line), and Forest Hills-Bay Ridge.  And yet another way of addressing this is severing the 60th street connection, either by completely segregating QBL from Broadway or perhaps running a QBL service along 63rd and merging in with the Broadway express.  All have some level of drawbacks, though.

When all is said and done, alleviating the merges at DeKalb and CPW should be done, even if a full deinterlining is not feasible.

 

 

[mrsman]

As usually happens, posting leads to more ideas.  A plan to maintain QBL-Broadway connection, while eliminating the merge from express to local:

207 - Far Rockaway/Lefferts: CPW/8 Av/Fulton St Exp 

205 - Euclid: Concourse RH Exp - CPW/8 Av Exp - Fulton St Lcl 

JC-WTC: QBL Exp - 53rd St - 8 Av Lcl

BPB/145 - Brighton Beach: Concourse RH Lcl - CPW Lcl - 6 Av Exp - Brighton Exp 

168 St - CI: CPW Lcl - 6 Av Exp - Brighton local

 179 - CI:  QBL exp - 53rd St - 6 Av local - Culver

 57 St - Metropolitan:  6 Av local - Myrtle el

 71 Av - Coney Island: QBL local - 63rd - Bway/4 Av Exp vía Sea Beach 

96 St/2 Av - Coney Island: Bway/4 Av Exp via West End 

 71 Av - Whitehall:  QBL local - 60th - Bwy local - Montague tunnel - 4 Av local

 Astoria - Bay Ridge: Astoria line - 60th - Bwy local - Montague tunnel - 4 Av local

[MTA Researcher]

All righty this is what I have culminated along with @Vulturious tweaks:
 

  All Times except Nights: 207 - Far Rockaway: CPW/8 Av/Fulton St Exp

Nights: All Local

 Rush Hours: 205 - Lefferts: Concourse Exp - CPW/8 Av Exp - Fulton St. Lcl

Other Times except Nights: Concourse Lcl

Nights: Euclid Av - Lefferts 

 

All Times: 179 - CI: QBL Exp - 53rd St - 8 Av Lcl - W 4 switch via Rutgers St - Culver  

 

Blue M - All Times except Nights: 168 St - Metropolitan Av: CPW/8 Av Lcl - W 4 switch - Myrtle Av Lcl

Nights: Metropolitan Av- Myrtle Av

 

 OR  (Pick One) - Rush Hours: BPB - CI: Concourse Lcl - CPW Lcl - 6 Av Exp - Brighton Lcl  

Other Times except Nights: 145 St - CI

Nights: 205 - CI

 

All Times except Nights: JC - WTC - QBL Exp via 53rd St - 6 Av Lcl - W 4 Switch to WTC 

Nights via 63rd St All Lcl

 

 Weekdays: 71 Av - Brighton Beach: QBL Lcl via 63rd St - 6 Av Exp - Brighton Exp

Weekends and Nights: No Service use or  

 

All Times except Nights: Astoria - CI: Bway/ 4 Av Exp via Sea Beach - skips 49 St. 

Nights: All Local via Manhattan Bridge

 

All Times except Nights: 71 Av - Whitehall St: QBL Lcl via 60 St- Bway Lcl 

Nights: No Service use or  

 

All Times except Nights: 96 St/2 Av - CI: Bway/4 Av Exp via West End 

Nights: via Montague St Tunnel

 

I really want to put the train to go to Bay Ridge to replace the in Brooklyn. I also have in mind the idea to scrap the   and replace skip stop with a    and service that goes peak direction express.  

 

Also, if CBTC is incorporated; the and can go to Queens and can stay in Astoria while being Broadway Express.   

Edited December 31, 2021 by MTA Researcher

[Vulturious]

36 minutes ago, MTA Researcher said:

All righty this is what I have culminated along with @Vulturious tweaks:
 

  All Times except Nights: 207 - Far Rockaway: CPW/8 Av/Fulton St Exp

Nights: All Local

 Rush Hours: 205 - Lefferts: Concourse Exp - CPW/8 Av Exp - Fulton St. Lcl

Other Times except Nights: Concourse Lcl

Nights: Euclid Av - Lefferts 

 

All Times: 179 - CI: QBL Exp - 53rd St - 8 Av Lcl - W 4 switch via Rutgers St - Culver  

 

Blue M - All Times except Nights: 168 St - Metropolitan Av: CPW/8 Av Lcl - W 4 switch - Myrtle Av Lcl

Nights: Metropolitan Av- Myrtle Av

 

 OR  (Pick One) - Rush Hours: BPB - CI: Concourse Lcl - CPW Lcl - 6 Av Exp - Brighton Lcl  

Other Times except Nights: 145 St - CI

Nights: 205 - CI

 

All Times except Nights: JC - WTC - QBL Exp via 53rd St - 6 Av Lcl - W 4 Switch to WTC 

Nights via 63rd St All Lcl

 

 Weekdays: 71 Av - Brighton Beach: QBL Lcl via 63rd St - 6 Av Exp - Brighton Exp

Weekends and Nights: No Service use or  

 

All Times except Nights: Astoria - CI: Bway/ 4 Av Exp via Sea Beach - skips 49 St. 

Nights: All Local via Manhattan Bridge

 

All Times except Nights: 71 Av - Whitehall St: QBL Lcl via 60 St- Bway Lcl 

Nights: No Service use or  

 

All Times except Nights: 96 St/2 Av - CI: Bway/4 Av Exp via West End 

Nights: via Montague St Tunnel

 

I really want to put the train to go to Bay Ridge to replace the in Brooklyn. I also have in mind the idea to scrap the   and replace skip stop with a    and service that goes peak direction express.  

 

Also, if CBTC is incorporated; the and can go to Queens and can stay in Astoria while being Broadway Express.   

Yeah, pretty much works well. When it comes to the  or , it would make sense to stick with the  since that has been that running along Concourse for practically it's whole lifetime and used to run along Brighton anyway. I got no issue with the rest of the set up, service seems to be running much better compared to before, aside from the new merge around Euclid and the whole  to Bay Ridge thing as I know no one is going to be taking that thing. I guess it's whatever since no one takes it anyway.

[mrsman]

MTA Researcher,

I do like this plan with regard to how it handles the 8th Ave and 6th Ave trains.  You are providing good service to key destinations and are eliminating a lot of the unnecessary merges.  AC is fully deintelined, except around 145th St.  The EM is a good way of mixing the two services without too many other merges.  Q and F very carefully avoid merging with each other, which has always been a problem that I had with the current system involving current E,F, and M.  Of course, the problem in the current system has M diverging from E and then merging with F in the 6th/53rd area.  This isn't alleviated by simply switching F and M (although that plan does eliminate the EF merge in the Queens Plaza area).  But your system does it better, because the Q trains coming in from 63rd are merging in with D trains from CPW and not affecting  E or F at all.  The E/F divergence is clean, since the F south of that point is all by itself.

Like in my latest plan, I realized that the R is necessary to provide QBL local connections to Broadway so that QBL local customers can access Long Islnad City and the transfer to 456.

I am not a fan of the plan for Broadway as it still provides for crossing between the local and the express.  Granted, it is a far better place to do this crossover north of 57th, then to do it at 34th street under current practice.  If I had to make adjustments to your plan, I would do it in one of two ways, but both unfortunatley relegate Astoria trains to the Broadway local, which I know you are dead set against.  Also, I prefer the 4th Ave local to Bay Ridge being a Broadway service rather than a Nassau service.

 

ALT 1: Astoria and QBL on Broadway local, 96th trains to Sea Beach and West End:

All Times : Astoria - Bay Ridge: Bway/ 4 Av Local via 60th st tunnel and Montague Tunnel   

All Times except Nights: 71 Av - Whitehall St: QBL Lcl via 60 St- Bway Lcl  

Nights: No Service

Yellow-V* All Times: 96 St/2 Av - CI: Bway/4 Av Exp via Manhattan Bridge and Sea Beach  Line

All Times: 96 St/2 Av - CI: Bway/4 Av Exp via Manhattan Bridge and West End  Line

 

ALT 2: Astoria and QBL-60 on Broadway local, 96th trains to West End, QBL-63 on Broadway express to Sea Beach.  Orange Q emanates from 57 St:

All Times : Astoria - Bay Ridge: Bway/ 4 Av Local via 60th st tunnel and Montague Tunnel   

All Times except Nights: 71 Av - Whitehall St: QBL Lcl via 60 St- Bway Lcl  

Nights: No Service

Yellow-V* All Times: 71 Av - CI:  QBL lcl via 63 St - Bway/4Av Exp via Sea Beach 

Note: will  not divert to 63rd street on nights and weekends in this alternative

All Times: 96 St/2 Av - CI: Bway/4 Av Exp via West End  

 Orange-Q Weekdays: 57 St - Brighton Beach: 6 Av Exp - Brighton Exp

Weekends and Nights: No Service, 57 St station will close at those times.

 

I prefer the first alternative.  V and W are basically twins, except that they branch to two separate places in southern Brooklyn.  As such, both should run all day.  Plus, another down side to the second alternative is that it gets rid of the nice cross-platform transfer between Broadway express and 6th Ave express. The tansfer can be used to go from Broadway express to QBL local or from Upper 2nd Ave to 6th Ave express.  The 63rd/Lex station thus allows cross-platform transfers to express lines to West  End, Sea Beach, and Brighton which is great for any south Brooklyn person heading to the Upper East Side or inner Queens.

 

* An alternate to Yellow-V would be  and renaming Orange-Q to  or  , but I know that you love the Orange-Q, so the nomenclature is up to you.

[MTA Researcher]

8 hours ago, mrsman said:

MTA Researcher,

I do like this plan with regard to how it handles the 8th Ave and 6th Ave trains.  You are providing good service to key destinations and are eliminating a lot of the unnecessary merges.  AC is fully deintelined, except around 145th St.  The EM is a good way of mixing the two services without too many other merges.  Q and F very carefully avoid merging with each other, which has always been a problem that I had with the current system involving current E,F, and M.  Of course, the problem in the current system has M diverging from E and then merging with F in the 6th/53rd area.  This isn't alleviated by simply switching F and M (although that plan does eliminate the EF merge in the Queens Plaza area).  But your system does it better, because the Q trains coming in from 63rd are merging in with D trains from CPW and not affecting  E or F at all.  The E/F divergence is clean, since the F south of that point is all by itself.

Like in my latest plan, I realized that the R is necessary to provide QBL local connections to Broadway so that QBL local customers can access Long Islnad City and the transfer to 456.

I am not a fan of the plan for Broadway as it still provides for crossing between the local and the express.  Granted, it is a far better place to do this crossover north of 57th, then to do it at 34th street under current practice.  If I had to make adjustments to your plan, I would do it in one of two ways, but both unfortunatley relegate Astoria trains to the Broadway local, which I know you are dead set against.  Also, I prefer the 4th Ave local to Bay Ridge being a Broadway service rather than a Nassau service.

 

ALT 1: Astoria and QBL on Broadway local, 96th trains to Sea Beach and West End:

All Times : Astoria - Bay Ridge: Bway/ 4 Av Local via 60th st tunnel and Montague Tunnel   

All Times except Nights: 71 Av - Whitehall St: QBL Lcl via 60 St- Bway Lcl  

Nights: No Service

Yellow-V* All Times: 96 St/2 Av - CI: Bway/4 Av Exp via Manhattan Bridge and Sea Beach  Line

All Times: 96 St/2 Av - CI: Bway/4 Av Exp via Manhattan Bridge and West End  Line

 

ALT 2: Astoria and QBL-60 on Broadway local, 96th trains to West End, QBL-63 on Broadway express to Sea Beach.  Orange Q emanates from 57 St:

All Times : Astoria - Bay Ridge: Bway/ 4 Av Local via 60th st tunnel and Montague Tunnel   

All Times except Nights: 71 Av - Whitehall St: QBL Lcl via 60 St- Bway Lcl  

Nights: No Service

Yellow-V* All Times: 71 Av - CI:  QBL lcl via 63 St - Bway/4Av Exp via Sea Beach 

Note: will  not divert to 63rd street on nights and weekends in this alternative

All Times: 96 St/2 Av - CI: Bway/4 Av Exp via West End  

 Orange-Q Weekdays: 57 St - Brighton Beach: 6 Av Exp - Brighton Exp

Weekends and Nights: No Service, 57 St station will close at those times.

 

I prefer the first alternative.  V and W are basically twins, except that they branch to two separate places in southern Brooklyn.  As such, both should run all day.  Plus, another down side to the second alternative is that it gets rid of the nice cross-platform transfer between Broadway express and 6th Ave express. The tansfer can be used to go from Broadway express to QBL local or from Upper 2nd Ave to 6th Ave express.  The 63rd/Lex station thus allows cross-platform transfers to express lines to West  End, Sea Beach, and Brighton which is great for any south Brooklyn person heading to the Upper East Side or inner Queens.

 

* An alternate to Yellow-V would be  and renaming Orange-Q to  or  , but I know that you love the Orange-Q, so the nomenclature is up to you.

Fine, we will keep 4 Av Lcl to Broadway instead of Nassau St. I just wanted to alleviate the Triple Borough Local issue in the line by cutting it back to Whitehall St. Meanwhile the has an express variant; which could shorten its trip. 

 

As for the alternative proposals; you do realize that you are leaving with no direct yard access. Astoria to Bay Ridge just can’t happen… 

 

Having two trains go to 2nd Ave would be repeating in Astoria, except now it happens on 2nd Ave. What I mean is that these two lines would be sharing the same equipment, which can be confusing. 

 

In my proposal the has Astoria to itself, while having CI Yard access. The has 2 Av to itself, also CI Yard access. The has Jamaica Yard Access whether you extend it to Brooklyn or cut it back to Whitehall St. 

 

I know Broadway will stay interlined along with merge beyond Euclid Av, but if we incorporate CBTC; It’s All Good.  

[darkstar8983]

15 hours ago, MTA Researcher said:

Fine, we will keep 4 Av Lcl to Broadway instead of Nassau St. I just wanted to alleviate the Triple Borough Local issue in the line by cutting it back to Whitehall St. Meanwhile the has an express variant; which could shorten its trip. 

 

As for the alternative proposals; you do realize that you are leaving with no direct yard access. Astoria to Bay Ridge just can’t happen… 

 

Having two trains go to 2nd Ave would be repeating in Astoria, except now it happens on 2nd Ave. What I mean is that these two lines would be sharing the same equipment, which can be confusing. 

 

In my proposal the has Astoria to itself, while having CI Yard access. The has 2 Av to itself, also CI Yard access. The has Jamaica Yard Access whether you extend it to Brooklyn or cut it back to Whitehall St. 

 

I know Broadway will stay interlined along with merge beyond Euclid Av, but if we incorporate CBTC; It’s All Good.  

Unfortunately, it seems that the only way to de-interline Broadway without screwing over south Brooklyn in some way, is to just have an Astoria-Bay Ridge route. Otherwise, we will just have to live with an Astoria-to-Broadway Express route. With the incoming R211 order, the likelihood for a subway fleet expansion (either by the entire R211 with options exercised OR by subway service reductions caused by the pandemic), is very likely. This will probably lead to riders to push for more 2 Av service (meaning more s rerouted to 2 Av, and more s to Astoria to maintain the service balance since the  is at capacity in terms of the Manhattan Bridge merges). This would mean that Whitehall St would no longer be a feasible terminal for the . This could force the  and  to have their south terminals switched, changing the  to a weekday-only route (or just having two 96 St services overnight and weekends), switching the  to a Brooklyn Local weekends if the  becomes a weekend Brooklyn shuttle again.

Edited January 1, 2022 by darkstar8983

[mrsman]

10 hours ago, darkstar8983 said:

Unfortunately, it seems that the only way to de-interline Broadway without screwing over south Brooklyn in some way, is to just have an Astoria-Bay Ridge route. Otherwise, we will just have to live with an Astoria-to-Broadway Express route. With the incoming R211 order, the likelihood for a subway fleet expansion (either by the entire R211 with options exercised OR by subway service reductions caused by the pandemic), is very likely. This will probably lead to riders to push for more 2 Av service (meaning more s rerouted to 2 Av, and more s to Astoria to maintain the service balance since the  is at capacity in terms of the Manhattan Bridge merges). This would mean that Whitehall St would no longer be a feasible terminal for the . This could force the  and  to have their south terminals switched, changing the  to a weekday-only route (or just having two 96 St services overnight and weekends), switching the  to a Brooklyn Local weekends if the  becomes a weekend Brooklyn shuttle again.

Prior to 1987,  [and before that some iterations of RR and BMT #2] ran from Astoria to Bay Ridge via Broadway local and Montague tunnel.  Yes, there is no direct yard access, and yes direct yard access is deisrable but not required.  If the overall service can run better with an Astoria-Bay Ridge line, it should be run even if it means some deadhead runs to the CI yard.

Overall, I feel like there will always be some level of QBL-Broadway service, but this type of service should not be the main QBL service or the main Broadway service, since it necessarily involves mixing.  Better to have Astoria-Bay Ridge as the main Broadway service with the QBL service being a supplemental service.

As you correctly note, there will be more demand to 2nd Ave.  Let's send the  there, so then we can increase service.  Once that happens,  will be the prime Broadway local and will be the supplemental Broadwya local, so the prime train should continue to Bay Ridge.

[Amiri the subway guy]

16 minutes ago, mrsman said:

Prior to 1987,  [and before that some iterations of RR and BMT #2] ran from Astoria to Bay Ridge via Broadway local and Montague tunnel.  Yes, there is no direct yard access, and yes direct yard access is deisrable but not required.  If the overall service can run better with an Astoria-Bay Ridge line, it should be run even if it means some deadhead runs to the CI yard.

Overall, I feel like there will always be some level of QBL-Broadway service, but this type of service should not be the main QBL service or the main Broadway service, since it necessarily involves mixing.  Better to have Astoria-Bay Ridge as the main Broadway service with the QBL service being a supplemental service.

As you correctly note, there will be more demand to 2nd Ave.  Let's send the  there, so then we can increase service.  Once that happens,  will be the prime Broadway local and will be the supplemental Broadwya local, so the prime train should continue to Bay Ridge.

 My thoughts. The 1987 change was done to give the R direct access to Jamaica Yard (where the train is assigned to this day); previously, the N had direct access to both Jamaica Yard and Coney Island Yard, and the R, running from Bay Ridge to Astoria, lacked direct access to any yard. This change was intended to improve the appearance and reliability of service on the R, previously, R trains had to make non-passenger runs, or "deadheads", to/from the Coney Island Yard.

While it would be nice to have the R train return to Astoria. People will go on saying that the R “needs a yard” I mostly agree with that statement, However another factor you would have to consider was the fact that back in the 1980s the R train fleet was mainly of R27s R30s and on rare occasions R32s. The R27s and R30s fleet both suffered from many structural integrity issues mainly from deferred maintenance.

Since the majority of the R trains fleet back then consisted of the problem plagued R27s and R30s they really needed a yard desperately after a few trips. The R train has many spots it could shot turn at to make up for lacking a yard, Heck to this day some R train cars are maintained at Coney Island yard. The MTA wanted every line to have direct access to train yard was cause back in the day the MTA was filled to the brim of old and worn out train equipment so it was essential that the train cars be maintenance frequently .

An alternative solution to the R yard was that the MTA could’ve and should’ve given the R train the newest train cars at the time the R68s. If anything the R train could’ve return to Astoria in 1989 or 1991 when the equipment was newer and more reliable than the older. But all hope for the R train returning to Astoria was lost in 1992 when late night R train was cut back to 36th Street.

Let’s use the W train as an example. It uses the Coney Island yard yet it only goes up to Whitehall South Ferry. A very limited amount of rush hour W train head to Brooklyn. But the yard has never really been an issue for the W train, this however could be because that the W train operates weekday only, shares it equipment with the N train, or switches routes at Astoria ditmars blvd.

Anyways fast forward 34 years later. The R train is using the newer R160s which are much more reliable train cars. When the R and N swapped it was a move made mostly because of the terrible  Quality  of the equipment on the R. Flash forward 35 years almost out of all the problems the R has it doesn’t have a decrepit fleet that needs constant maintenance.  So the yard issue seems to be less of an problem than it was in the 1980s but that just my theory. What are your opinions on my theory

[Vulturious]

1 hour ago, Amiri the subway guy said:

 My thoughts. The 1987 change was done to give the R direct access to Jamaica Yard (where the train is assigned to this day); previously, the N had direct access to both Jamaica Yard and Coney Island Yard, and the R, running from Bay Ridge to Astoria, lacked direct access to any yard. This change was intended to improve the appearance and reliability of service on the R, previously, R trains had to make non-passenger runs, or "deadheads", to/from the Coney Island Yard.

While it would be nice to have the R train return to Astoria. People will go on saying that the R “needs a yard” I mostly agree with that statement, However another factor you would have to consider was the fact that back in the 1980s the R train fleet was mainly of R27s R30s and on rare occasions R32s. The R27s and R30s fleet both suffered from many structural integrity issues mainly from deferred maintenance.

Since the majority of the R trains fleet back then consisted of the problem plagued R27s and R30s they really needed a yard desperately after a few trips. The R train has many spots it could shot turn at to make up for lacking a yard, Heck to this day some R train cars are maintained at Coney Island yard. The MTA wanted every line to have direct access to train yard was cause back in the day the MTA was filled to the brim of old and worn out train equipment so it was essential that the train cars be maintenance frequently .

An alternative solution to the R yard was that the MTA could’ve and should’ve given the R train the newest train cars at the time the R68s. If anything the R train could’ve return to Astoria in 1989 or 1991 when the equipment was newer and more reliable than the older. But all hope for the R train returning to Astoria was lost in 1992 when late night R train was cut back to 36th Street.

Let’s use the W train as an example. It uses the Coney Island yard yet it only goes up to Whitehall South Ferry. A very limited amount of rush hour W train head to Brooklyn. But the yard has never really been an issue for the W train, this however could be because that the W train operates weekday only, shares it equipment with the N train, or switches routes at Astoria ditmars blvd.

Anyways fast forward 34 years later. The R train is using the newer R160s which are much more reliable train cars. When the R and N swapped it was a move made mostly because of the terrible  Quality  of the equipment on the R. Flash forward 35 years almost out of all the problems the R has it doesn’t have a decrepit fleet that needs constant maintenance.  So the yard issue seems to be less of an problem than it was in the 1980s but that just my theory. What are your opinions on my theory

As you bring up a good point, you forget why the  is running R160's in the first place. That being because it runs along QBL with CBTC. If the  were to run along Astoria, it would have no choice but to run R46's and R68/A's. While that isn't a bad thing since the R68's are more reliable, the R46's and R68A's aren't and from what I remember from someone talking about their maintenance, they're on par if not the R46 lacking behind. A question that should be brought up is, how would service run if the  were to go back to Astoria?

One option would be to just kill the  and have the  extended to Bay Ridge or kill the , same result but let's say the  is killed. Both lines would continue to run as is with one less merging going on which could improve Broadway service. However, capacity is still an issue. Ditmars Blvd is a 2 track terminal that isn't meant to hold more than one line. Currently, it is hard to turn back trains at that terminal without any delays. The R160's helped out a bit, but delays were pretty much inevitable. On top of the fact that the R68/A's operate there as well so rollsigns all around are being changed which doesn't always end up being correctly signed. Even with that in mind, there is another issue with this option, one line shouldn't be operating along Astoria anyway. Late night service would be perfectly fine with the  running to Whitehall St like the  would during those times and the  covering the rest. Even if you were to keep the  and cut back the  to Whitehall St, the same exact issue applies only this time the  sticks around. Weekend service would still also be an issue with 60 St bombarded with three different services.

Another option would be to keep the  as the sole Astoria line while having the  operate to 96 St and the  to Whitehall St. Only one merge (well technically 2) would be happening along Broadway and that is between the  and . The  would not have to deal with much because the  is running with the  now and the same exact thing with the  to the . Unfortunately, those living in Astoria like to have their express service. Let's say that wasn't an issue, service would be running much smoother compared to before, right? Not entirely, the issue is the lack of a yard access. While I'm pretty much sounding like a broken record, it still is very much an issue. There are no crew swaps happening here. The reason the  is working now is because they swap crews with the . This allows for trains that need to head to the yard an easier travel with the occasional limited rush hour  trips to 86 St. Then that brings the issue of capacity to 96 St. The upside to this however is that there is trackage acting as a layup north of 96 St.

The third option would be to run the  again as the sole Astoria service, but getting rid of the . The only difference here is running the  via 63 St with the . I'm not going to go into details about this one because it actually is just much worse compared to the current service. Queens Plaza would lose a local service while creating more merges for the  and .

I've brought this up before in another thread, but I'll say it again. The last option that could be considered is building a new connection between Broadway and CPW through the provision north of 57 St-7 Av. This would allow for local trains to run through the new connection to CPW while also keeping the  express along Broadway going to Astoria directly with no issues. Service would cut back to 57 St-7 Av with a relay switch built in the new connection so  and  service isn't interrupted as much. To compensate for the lack of a Broadway service as well as a local service for QBL, the  would run express with the  and  (assuming nothing is changing in scheduling) which would run express along Brighton. The  would continue to run along 60 St tunnel so Queens Plaza keeps it's local service into Manhattan without hurting  service. There are also other cons that would probably too long for me to list.

The point here is Astoria needs a direct yard access anyway. Keeping an extra line to Astoria helps because of the crew swaps. Unfortunately, capacity is an issue and is one of the reasons delays happen along Astoria. Even then, QBL also needs a Broadway service to help it out. The 11 St cut helped out a lot because of riders along QBL local wanting local access to Manhattan. I love how this got way off topic

Edited January 2, 2022 by Vulturious

[T to Dyre Avenue]

13 hours ago, Vulturious said:

As you bring up a good point, you forget why the  is running R160's in the first place. That being because it runs along QBL with CBTC. If the  were to run along Astoria, it would have no choice but to run R46's and R68/A's. While that isn't a bad thing since the R68's are more reliable, the R46's and R68A's aren't and from what I remember from someone talking about their maintenance, they're on par if not the R46 lacking behind. A question that should be brought up is, how would service run if the  were to go back to Astoria?

One option would be to just kill the  and have the  extended to Bay Ridge or kill the , same result but let's say the  is killed. Both lines would continue to run as is with one less merging going on which could improve Broadway service. However, capacity is still an issue. Ditmars Blvd is a 2 track terminal that isn't meant to hold more than one line. Currently, it is hard to turn back trains at that terminal without any delays. The R160's helped out a bit, but delays were pretty much inevitable. On top of the fact that the R68/A's operate there as well so rollsigns all around are being changed which doesn't always end up being correctly signed. Even with that in mind, there is another issue with this option, one line shouldn't be operating along Astoria anyway. Late night service would be perfectly fine with the  running to Whitehall St like the  would during those times and the  covering the rest. Even if you were to keep the  and cut back the  to Whitehall St, the same exact issue applies only this time the  sticks around. Weekend service would still also be an issue with 60 St bombarded with three different services.

Another option would be to keep the  as the sole Astoria line while having the  operate to 96 St and the  to Whitehall St. Only one merge (well technically 2) would be happening along Broadway and that is between the  and . The  would not have to deal with much because the  is running with the  now and the same exact thing with the  to the . Unfortunately, those living in Astoria like to have their express service. Let's say that wasn't an issue, service would be running much smoother compared to before, right? Not entirely, the issue is the lack of a yard access. While I'm pretty much sounding like a broken record, it still is very much an issue. There are no crew swaps happening here. The reason the  is working now is because they swap crews with the . This allows for trains that need to head to the yard an easier travel with the occasional limited rush hour  trips to 86 St. Then that brings the issue of capacity to 96 St. The upside to this however is that there is trackage acting as a layup north of 96 St.

The third option would be to run the  again as the sole Astoria service, but getting rid of the . The only difference here is running the  via 63 St with the . I'm not going to go into details about this one because it actually is just much worse compared to the current service. Queens Plaza would lose a local service while creating more merges for the  and .

I've brought this up before in another thread, but I'll say it again. The last option that could be considered is building a new connection between Broadway and CPW through the provision north of 57 St-7 Av. This would allow for local trains to run through the new connection to CPW while also keeping the  express along Broadway going to Astoria directly with no issues. Service would cut back to 57 St-7 Av with a relay switch built in the new connection so  and  service isn't interrupted as much. To compensate for the lack of a Broadway service as well as a local service for QBL, the  would run express with the  and  (assuming nothing is changing in scheduling) which would run express along Brighton. The  would continue to run along 60 St tunnel so Queens Plaza keeps it's local service into Manhattan without hurting  service. There are also other cons that would probably too long for me to list.

The point here is Astoria needs a direct yard access anyway. Keeping an extra line to Astoria helps because of the crew swaps. Unfortunately, capacity is an issue and is one of the reasons delays happen along Astoria. Even then, QBL also needs a Broadway service to help it out. The 11 St cut helped out a lot because of riders along QBL local wanting local access to Manhattan. I love how this got way off topic

I really don’t think this is an issue. I fail to see how it would be, unless maybe there’s a huge percentage of Astoria riders whose destination is Canal Street. The  and  make the exact same stops between Ditmars Blvd and 34th St-Herald Square. Neither one is faster or slower than the other. Even with Union Square, there’s very little time saving, because the  skips only two stops between 34th and 14th. 

I don’t think the third option is all that bad. How would Queens Plaza lose a local train? Run the  and  local via 53rd and the  and  express via 63rd. And the  would replace the  to/from Jamaica Center. The fourth option is kind of confusing, because what train is running local on Broadway if the  is express along with the  and ? The second option is the one I prefer because there is a clean express/local operation on the Broadway Line. The first option - killing the  - can only work with a fully deinterlined QBL with only 8th and 6th Ave services. Maybe also with a future QBL-2 Ave service via the 63rd St Tunnel.