If You Were Robert Moses in 2009 What New Subways Would You Build?

[TeeLow]

The will basically be an extension of the already existing Lafayette Avenue Line. The will begin at Church Avenue. Right after Bedford-Nostrand, it will switch to those two middle tracks after the station.(If you dont remember, look at the track maps at nycsubway.org).

 

What map would I be looking for to find this layout?

[Tbirdbassist]

This one.

 

http://images.nycsubway.org/trackmap/bigbklynhts.png

 

 

 

I don't agree with any train terminating at Jamaica Center, seeing as how slow it is. But I am ALLLLLLLLLL for trains heading to north and south eastern Queens.

 

 

Although, now that I look, lafayette is all residential. It would be hard to get people to agree on a subway.

 

 

However, since deep bore tunneling is the most efficient way to tunnel in developed areas there may not be too much mouth from the NIMBYers.

[TeeLow]

Amazing! Is that the actual existing layout E/O Bed-Nos? I don't recall there being a double set of middle tracks. I thought the middle track was used years in the past for the to terminate at Bed-Nos whle they continued to extend the line into Queens. What was the plan for those double middles?

[Tbirdbassist]

I think it was used to turn back some trains, the switches are there for it, but the line was built from Queens-to- Brooklyn, not the other way around going by the dates the stations were opened.

 

Probably was planned to run under Lafayette to connect with the tracks that were supposed to run under Broadway from South 4th St.

 

My service guess would be the peak trains heading to meet the South 4th line would switch to the middle track just before Classon Ave (no track exist there, but there is space for it), bypass Classon and stop at Bedford-Nostrand middle track. Then then after switch over to the northbound track to Broadway. Trains coming from roadway would stop on the "local" track I guess.

 

Since Lafayette isn't wide enough for a 4 track station, I guess that's how they planned it.

[LTA1992]

Amazing! Is that the actual existing layout E/O Bed-Nos? I don't recall there being a double set of middle tracks. I thought the middle track was used years in the past for the to terminate at Bed-Nos whle they continued to extend the line into Queens. What was the plan for those double middles?

 

You've never noticed them? Well, i cant say nothing because i didnt notice them until 2 years after i fiund out they were there. I dont ride the like that. Anyway, they were going to be part if the IND Second System to extend the Lafayette Avenue Subway and connect it with the Bushwick Avenue Subway. I think so anyway, its been a while since i looked at the plans.

 

Also, that plan to extend the to Starret City, Mistake.

Revision:

 

Extend the New Lots Avenue Line to the General Post Office via Linden Blvd/Cozine Avenue.

 

trains Diverge from New Lots Avenue Line between Junius Street And Penn. Avenue Stations. The Elevated will have to be widened so that 2 more tracks can be placed in the middle so trains can rise and turn just before Penn. Avenue Station. The first Station along Penn. Avenue will be Riverdale/New Lots Avenues.

[R32 3348]

Listen, If the gets the boldness and toughness as its predecessors, THEN, its definitely possible.

No, it actually is infeasible to just rip up an entire avenue and a level of subway to create a lower level, Robert Moses or not.

[LTA1992]

No, it actually is infeasible to just rip up an entire avenue and a level of subway to create a lower level, Robert Moses or not.

 

Apparently, someone isn't thinking of building on top of the existing level. You can build Flying Express Tracks. Come on, its not like it hasn't been done before.

[7LineFan]

Apparently, someone isn't thinking of building on top of the existing level. You can build Flying Express Tracks. Come on, its not like it hasn't been done before.

 

Again, most likely disrupts service for many years. Do you know how heavily used the are? A disruption like that will anger commuters to no avail.

[metsfan]

The air cleaners and pedestrian bridges would be put wherever possible.

 

The freight line would basically work around the current underground layout under manhattan, including the aqueducts, basements etc. What you'd have is a tram style line running to staten island in a small tunnel set laid out in a + kind of shape, with a service tunnel in the center, then lock it all together with concrete. This would allow a way for freight to get to staten island without a large rail yard or trucks needed on the whole island. You could put anything in the container transportation tunnel that is the size of a standard large size shipping container, any over-size items can be delivered by all-electric automated shuttle trucks. The distribution system would allow several points on the islands to send freight through to manhattan to attach to a freight train into NJ. You could have thie tunnel into NJ below the commuter rail tunnels in bedrock could connect to the conrail shared yard in harrison/kearny.

 

Freight line from westchester county down through bx to manhattan on elevated structure, allowing freight to be brought into the city without the 100% reliance on trucks. Stretch it over to bk/qns where possible to connect to LIRR/ARR

 

Light rail for all of long island connecting with LIRR. LIRR and light rail converted to catenary so track work = safer. Re-activate all LIRR lines and stations, including the far rockaway yard which is now built over. Buy out the deeds there, compensate owners etc re-location costs whatever it takes. This would bring the far rockaway station to a block or across the street away from the far rockaway station. Allow light freight to supply businesses along all LIRR routes.

 

Convert MNRR to catenary from bottom contact 3rd rail in stages as money allows to get full inter-operation-ability (yes its a real word) with LIRR, amtk, and (NJT). Allow GCT to be served by amtk and (NJT) connected through to the east side access tunnel, giving LIRR the ability to serve both NYP and GCT on the same trip.

 

All busses run on electric systems, no burning of anything. Trackless trolly overhead wire on 3rd, 5th, 7th, and 11th ave. Use credit/debit/visa etc gift card compatible systems to allow people to board whenever they want vs TVM only. Create uni-pass acceptable on all transit ,(NJT) and which could operate on either RFID smart card or magnetic stripe smart card allowing different fares to be deducted across the different systems.

 

Light rail replaces SIR and most bus routes, remaining routes are trackless trolly or plug-in electric. Electric busses would have solar panels for field recharging or charging when parked and not plugged in. Very small CNG motor to run the HVAC system. Bus companies free to be design independent as they are now, but must make them electric drive only.

 

Off the coast of NJ and NY and CT build wind and wave electric plants (turbine) to power everything.

 

Traffic lanes would have dumb or smart sensors to allow cars to move without driver input reducing fatal incidents and allowing a smoother pattern of traffic.

 

100% rebuild of entire subway in a 3 part system. Part one would overhaul the tracks and replace 3rd rail. Part 2 would renovate all stations making them clean pleasant to be in and safe. Part 3 would rebuild the tunnels beams support systems and foundations along with the elevated structures. Part 3 would also replace the grating with grating that does not allow water to leak into the tunnel below.

 

All of this be made carbon neutral and eco-friendly.

 

Air cleaners would take bad stuff out of the air, co2, methane, dust, soot, bacteria, viruses, the like, and most would be located at subway entrance/exits to confine subway emissions (brake dust etc), and the rest put in fan plants, and smaller ones on lamp posts and sides of buildings. Could be disguised by billboards/neon signs.

 

In flushing meadows park, create a world class athletic complex to draw in the olympic games. Allow people to live in the olympic village part after the games are over for very low or no cost to get homeless folks and over crowded people in proper housing.

 

Put solar panels on every building, on every city vehicle, every train, every shelter as well as wind turbines where possible.

 

That's just what i could think of to explain my thinking in my first post on the first page.

 

- A

[LTA1992]

Again, most likely disrupts service for many years. Do you know how heavily used the are? A disruption like that will anger commuters to no avail.

 

It would be for their benefit right?. Besides, commuters are already angry with the subway. And, this would provide express service in both directions during the day. And who said this could be done when most line riders are riding. This could be done during the late nights.

[7LineFan]

It would be for their benefit right?. Besides, commuters are already angry with the subway. And, this would provide express service in both directions during the day. And who said this could be done when most line riders are riding. This could be done during the late nights.

 

And then they'll just pack up everything and leave before the rush? During construction they usually fence off the entire area where they're doing construction for safety reasons. Just look at Neck Road on the Brighton. They bumped all trains to the express track so they could do their work. They can't just leave the construction there and risk having metal beams fall on the trains. It's not safe.

 

Remember this would be a major construction project. Hell, even just track work on the line inhibits service.

[Tbirdbassist]

That's because track work puts more things in danger. The track crew and the trains passengers itself, to be specific.

 

 

Building under an existing structure is not that difficult. If it is undertaken in the same way the 63rd st connection was done, it won't severely disrupt service. They kept all tracks in service to make the connection.

 

It also helped that all the work was done at night and weekends, but even then service wasn't greatly effected (or is it affected?). I remember riding the train then and all I remember was a reduced speed between 36th St and Queens Plaza. My recollection of the construction is low since I only remember seeing about half of it ( I was 12 when it opened in 2001).

[7LineFan]

That's because track work puts more things in danger. The track crew and the trains passengers itself, to be specific.

 

Building under an existing structure is not that difficult. If it is undertaken in the same way the 63rd st connection was done, it won't severely disrupt service. They kept all tracks in service to make the connection.

 

It also helped that all the work was done at night and weekends, but even then service wasn't greatly effected (or is it affected?). I remember riding the train then and all I remember was a reduced speed between 36th St and Queens Plaza. My recollection of the construction is low since I only remember seeing about half of it ( I was 12 when it opened in 2001).

 

LTA's talking about building express tracks over the (7)'s el structure. There isn't enough room underneath it to build express tracks.

[Tbirdbassist]

Oh I thought you were talking about the IRT in Brooklyn.

 

 

I think the only way to build on top of any El structure is to have large sections prefabricated and brought in. Which would be pretty costly as it would involve closing off streets and upwards of three or four cranes at a time. It's possible for it to be done during non peak hours. However the MTA would never undertake such a thing, despite the desperately needing more trains in the rush hours to reduce the near Japan-like crowding it has.

 

I'm pretty sure sardines are more comfortable.

[metsfan]

Oh I thought you were talking about the IRT in Brooklyn.

 

 

I think the only way to build on top of any El structure is to have large sections prefabricated and brought in. Which would be pretty costly as it would involve closing off streets and upwards of three or four cranes at a time. It's possible for it to be done during non peak hours. However the MTA would never undertake such a thing, despite the desperately needing more trains in the rush hours to reduce the near Japan-like crowding it has.

 

I'm pretty sure sardines are more comfortable.

 

Not true. Look at where the empire state building was built. It didnt have anywhere to store the pieces.... All you'd need is 1 or maybe 2 mobile cranes and it would take maybe 6 months. Plus you guys are forgetting the cut routes where it's simply set into a trench. You could deck those over and have a second level, where there are street crossings you could simply take it up over the street. It's all feasible and possible. They've done more out there things engineering wise before, and not even in modern times.

 

- A

[7LineFan]

Not true. Look at where the empire state building was built. It didnt have anywhere to store the pieces.... All you'd need is 1 or maybe 2 mobile cranes and it would take maybe 6 months. Plus you guys are forgetting the cut routes where it's simply set into a trench. You could deck those over and have a second level, where there are street crossings you could simply take it up over the street. It's all feasible and possible. They've done more out there things engineering wise before, and not even in modern times.

 

- A

 

This is the line, not the Sea Beach or Brighton. There's no room for cranes on Roosevelt Avenue, in my opinion, unless they're extremely tall and can reach the center of the block from the cross streets.

 

And six months? To add on an entire el line over an el line? WAYYY too short, especially with today's economy and politics.

 

Plus they'd have to close the street below off too. For weeks or months at a time. People are going to vehemently object to that.

[metsfan]

This is the line, not the Sea Beach or Brighton. There's no room for cranes on Roosevelt Avenue, in my opinion, unless they're extremely tall and can reach the center of the block from the cross streets.

 

And six months? To add on an entire el line over an el line? WAYYY too short, especially with today's economy and politics.

 

Plus they'd have to close the street below off too. For weeks or months at a time. People are going to vehemently object to that.

 

This isnt that complicated, and i was talking about all the types of lines, not just the elevated. As far as street closures, not sure why you'd need to do that, most of the line has enough space on the sidewalk to allow a mobile or tower crane to park and do its thing. And tall? I guess you've never seen a building being built. They make the cranes however they need to have them, and it wouldnt need to be any taller than the top of the upper section as far as working reach. Economics and politics has nothing to do with how long it takes to bolt/weld beams together. The is a short line. I bet you it would take 2 years from current condition to in operation. Gotta lay track put in signals etc not just put the support structure. B)

 

- A

[LTA1992]

This isnt that complicated, and i was talking about all the types of lines, not just the elevated. As far as street closures, not sure why you'd need to do that, most of the line has enough space on the sidewalk to allow a mobile or tower crane to park and do its thing. And tall? I guess you've never seen a building being built. They make the cranes however they need to have them, and it wouldnt need to be any taller than the top of the upper section as far as working reach. Economics and politics has nothing to do with how long it takes to bolt/weld beams together. The is a short line. I bet you it would take 2 years from current condition to in operation. Gotta lay track put in signals etc not just put the support structure. B)

 

- A

 

I agree. But, like i said, this would be for the benefit of the passengers. But this is one of those ideas that people have that the has to listen to. It makes alot of sense. And about disrupting service, when hasn't a construction project on the existing subway has not disrupted service for long periods of time. Like i said, this could be done late nites and weekends.

[metsfan]

I agree. But, like i said, this would be for the benefit of the passengers. But this is one of those ideas that people have that the has to listen to. It makes alot of sense. And about disrupting service, when hasn't a construction project on the existing subway has not disrupted service for long periods of time. Like i said, this could be done late nites and weekends.

 

Yep. It will have to be done eventually or it will hinder growth.

 

- A

[7LineFan]

This isnt that complicated, and i was talking about all the types of lines, not just the elevated. As far as street closures, not sure why you'd need to do that, most of the line has enough space on the sidewalk to allow a mobile or tower crane to park and do its thing. And tall? I guess you've never seen a building being built. They make the cranes however they need to have them, and it wouldnt need to be any taller than the top of the upper section as far as working reach. Economics and politics has nothing to do with how long it takes to bolt/weld beams together. The is a short line. I bet you it would take 2 years from current condition to in operation. Gotta lay track put in signals etc not just put the support structure. B)

 

- A

 

And what are you gonna say to the homes and businesses that you park the cranes in front of? You can't leave your house for x amount of time, you have to close for x amount of time? I guess you've never walked under the el, and not the Queens Boulevard part either. The Roosevelt Avenue part. There may be enough space, but the line hangs partially over the sidewalk. You have to clear that too.

 

I agree. But, like i said, this would be for the benefit of the passengers. But this is one of those ideas that people have that the has to listen to. It makes alot of sense. And about disrupting service, when hasn't a construction project on the existing subway has not disrupted service for long periods of time. Like i said, this could be done late nites and weekends.

 

The idea makes sense, but the construction will close portions of the entire line, some of which has no access to other lines. It's not worth it to disrupt service for x number of years.

 

Actually I just realized something else. The only yard that the comes out of is Corona. You close an entire section of the line, no trains can get past that, cutting service into two segments (best case scenario) or completely from the block to Times Square (worst case scenario). How are you gonna get around that? Shuttle buses won't cut it, with the amount of passengers that take the , and the LIRR has too few stops to be of any use. Not every station is walking distance to the Queens Boulevard line. There aren't switches every few stations, and if one train goes down on the side that has no access, the line halts.

 

And there is already a flyover express track at 111th Street. Without major reworking of the existing structure, how are you going to connect the new track to the old?

 

Too much effort to be worthwhile, IMHO. I'd rather build a new line if that's possible. Or even tear down the existing structure and build anew, instead of working over the existing structure.

[LTA1992]

The idea makes sense, but the construction will close portions of the entire line, some of which has no access to other lines. It's not worth it to disrupt service for x number of years.

 

Actually I just realized something else. The only yard that the comes out of is Corona. You close an entire section of the line, no trains can get past that, cutting service into two segments (best case scenario) or completely from the block to Times Square (worst case scenario). How are you gonna get around that? Shuttle buses won't cut it, with the amount of passengers that take the , and the LIRR has too few stops to be of any use. Not every station is walking distance to the Queens Boulevard line. There aren't switches every few stations, and if one train goes down on the side that has no access, the line halts.

 

And there is already a flyover express track at 111th Street. Without major reworking of the existing structure, how are you going to connect the new track to the old?

 

Too much effort to be worthwhile, IMHO. I'd rather build a new line if that's possible. Or even tear down the existing structure and build anew, instead of working over the existing structure.

 

Building a new line these days costs too much. The Flyover at 111, destroy the ramp on the southbound side of 111 and connect the new southbound express track and add the new northbound express track next to it. Both tracks will connect to the locals just before Willets Point station. And wouldn't tearing down the El bring more problems than building over it. At least when you build over it, not only does it cost less, but you have some kind of service running.

[7LineFan]

Building a new line these days costs too much. The Flyover at 111, destroy the ramp on the southbound side of 111 and connect the new southbound express track and add the new northbound express track next to it. Both tracks will connect to the locals just before Willets Point station. And wouldn't tearing down the El bring more problems than building over it. At least when you build over it, not only does it cost less, but you have some kind of service running.

 

Yeah, that 111 plan sounds good.

 

But the only way I see them building over it, they have to close entire sections of the track at a time.. Not saying it can't be done, but people will get angry. Peak service is good enough for me... I say bring on CBTC first, and if that doesn't help much then consider building.

[Tbirdbassist]

They wouldn't have to close off sections of the line if they prefabricate sections and do work in the off hours (8pm-6am give or take). For the Roosevelt Ave sections cranes would sit on side streets since Roosevelt barely has room for traffic.

 

My plan would be to include these tracks in an extension down Northern Blvd, and possibly a new east river tunnel and new line.

 

The best thing to do would be to add two tracks above the existing. They would split just before the 33rd St station station switches since there is a spare trackway on the viaduct over Sunnyside yards and enough space to ramp up. Here's a picture I drew.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The junction at Corona Yard I drew out too as it is would be a long explanation to type.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

After Shea Stadium it would stay elevated, turn North onto College Point Blvd and then East onto Northern Blvd and either run as subway or elevated (more than likely subway if actually built) to Bell Blvd. Or it could be brought into the Bronx via the Clearview Expressway ROW and a new water tunnel. There really isn't anywhere for it to terminate past Bell Blvd.

 

A new yard could be built east of the Cross Island Pkwy north of the LIRR tracks. The land would need to be filled in, but it could be done if this line where to also have Bronx access (or a better idea would be to buy out Clearview Golf Course and build a yard, but that would be A LOT of money).

 

Once in the Bronx it would connect with the 6 line, or at least the Westchester Ave. Yard so the 7 can have direct IRT linkage. I haven't looked into the the ROW's it would take, but that's another big post.

[metsfan]

You mean the station formerly known as shea stadium/willets point, which will soon become citi field/willets point station, right? :eek:

 

As soon as shea is totally gone they will be changing the designation.

 

- A

[Tbirdbassist]

It takes less time to write/type Shea Stadium than Willets Points. B)