If You Were Robert Moses in 2009 What New Subways Would You Build?

[Forest Glen]

Robert Moses was a master builder. He had grand visions and the ability to get it done. Before you delve into my little project read a little about the man so you can understand what I'm proposing.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/learning/general/onthisday/bday/1218.html

 

OK now that you know a little bit about Mr Moses let's have some fun!

 

You are Robert(a) Moses. The date is 2009. The Transit system is flush with money from good investments, real estate revenue, Captial Grants and Bonds sales. Ridership is up 30 percent because city population grew by 15% in the last ten years. The Governor and Mayor both agree that the system needs to be expanded and fast! You're given a budget of $50 billion.

 

Here's my Capital Plan:

 

Current System Additions

- Bring back the and run it express on the middle track btn 242 and Dykeman 6AM-1PM to the city and to the Bronx til 8PM. Skip stop btn Dykeman and 96th 6A-8P

 

<4>Brooklyn- Build a middle track btn New Lots and Sutter-Rutland. Run Rush Hour Only Express trains to and from the city.

 

<4>Bronx- Same deal here. The RHO would run the middle track making Exp stops btn 125 and Woodlawn to and from.

 

(G)Brooklyn- Extend to Church Ave btn rush hours and to Kings Hwy during RH with full train lengths. runs Exp btn Bergen (reopen lower level) and Church Ave and RHO Kings Hwy middle track if logistics allow for a smooth turnaround. terminates @ Smith 9th late night and wkends.

 

(Z)Jamaica/Brooklyn- Build a middle track btn 121 and Cypress Hills. runs Exp all day. All stops btn Alabama & Crescent. Exp btn Myrtle and Marcy. Reverse for eve rush. to Broad St all times. runs 6A-10P Mon-Sun.

 

Extensions

(5)Brooklyn- Extend this line with new construction to Ave Z under Nostrand.

 

©Ozone Pk/Jamaica- Extend the to Francis via Libety/Farmers/Linden putting it underground after Lefferts. to Rock Pk/Far Rock all times. shuttle btn Euclid and FLB after hours.

 

(V)Jamaica- Extend the line to Springfield Blvd with new construction. runs btn Springfield and 179 eves and wkends and to 2nd Ave during the day.

 

(Z)Jamaica- Extend the to Springfield Blvd under Merrick Blvd. runs btn Jam Center & Broad 6A-10P Mon-Sun.

 

 

There's a lot more I want to do. didn't want the post to be too much! What would you do with 150 billion dollars!

 

Revive the Rockaway Line

 

Rebuild the lower Montauk branch as a light rail line from Jamaica to Queens Plaza

 

Convert the LIRR Bay Ridge branch into a crosstown line

 

Extend the HBLR to Staten Island

 

Build a Metro-North line from the New Haven line to Penn Station via Hell Gate with stops in Coop City and Parkchester

[Tbirdbassist]

EJZ extended to 168 with a cross over in front of the station to increase the terminal capacity.

 

R to 179 all times except late nights (Continental). G to Continental, south it goes to Church to supplement the F but the F still makes local stops.

 

 

The current EJZ terminal has crossovers in front of the terminal already. And if it were to be extended, its set up currently for the E to head south, the J/Z to head North along Archer and then Jamaica Ave. J was supposed to head to Queens Village, E to southern Jamaica via LIRR ROW.

 

 

The V is better off going to 179, The R already is a very long local, no need to make it longer.

[MTR Admiralty]

It was a joke man, don't be so serious...

 

OK you want the big money answer? Second Avenue line from Gun Hill Rd in the Bronx down 3rd ave in the bronx, under the River, down second ave, into Brooklyn landing in Red Hook with provision for extension.

 

Extend the L to Javits as well as the 7.

 

2/5 extend to Kings Plaza

 

125th St shuttle from Broadway through Randall's Island, and terminating at Ditmars Blvd with stair/escalator/elevator transfer to the N/W

 

EJZ extended to 168 with a cross over in front of the station to increase the terminal capacity.

 

R to 179 all times except late nights (Continental). G to Continental, south it goes to Church to supplement the F but the F still makes local stops. D extends underground from 205 to Gun Hill Rd/White Plains Rd, cross over in front of station for better terminal capacity (no need to dump at BPB)

I like your plans, however I would prefer if there are lines probing in East Queens.

[SubwayGuy]

Ambitious. Would have to tunnel under Botanic Garden/Bronx Zoo. What would the 1st stop S/O GHR be?

 

Either 204/Webster, or straight to Botanical Gardens (stop on Webster)...techincally the 3rd avenue portion in the Bronx would be more of a 3rd ave/webster line than pure 3rd ave because towards the northern Bronx Webster is the happening place. That also provides Fordham with direct subway service too.

 

3 locals along the Blvd? to 179 would be a nice luxury. to 71 is a must but if it's gonna be done it should be full time, yah? What happens to the ? We both agree the should be extended in Bklyn. Why would you run the F local though?

 

G trains would be lengthened to at least 6 75' cars (or 8 60' cars) to do this safely, but very slightly fewer G trains would be run to make it possible. G to 71 would be full time. V would be same as now, weekdays only, 2nd ave to CTL. With just the less frequently running G and the V turning at CTL (since R would be thru service to 179), that may work since CTL can't turn 3 services, but it can turn 2.

 

F would be local in Brooklyn because expressing it wouldn't save that much time, and Park Slope residents would lose their one seat ride to Manhattan which means taking the G and transferring (which for those that want to see Bergen lower open again would mean them having to climb up stairs now too). The F runs frequently enough and the G supplements the service fine, and it doesn't save enough time to warrant express service IMO.

[TeeLow]

Either 204/Webster, or straight to Botanical Gardens (stop on Webster)...techincally the 3rd avenue portion in the Bronx would be more of a 3rd ave/webster line than pure 3rd ave because towards the northern Bronx Webster is the happening place. That also provides Fordham with direct subway service too.

 

Makes sense. I forgot about Webster

 

G trains would be lengthened to at least 6 75' cars (or 8 60' cars) to do this safely, but very slightly fewer G trains would be run to make it possible. G to 71 would be full time. V would be same as now, weekdays only, 2nd ave to CTL. With just the less frequently running G and the V turning at CTL (since R would be thru service to 179), that may work since CTL can't turn 3 services, but it can turn 2.

 

Yeah you prolly could get away with that. Still would be a little hectic during the rush

 

F would be local in Brooklyn because expressing it wouldn't save that much time, and Park Slope residents would lose their one seat ride to Manhattan which means taking the G and transferring (which for those that want to see Bergen lower open again would mean them having to climb up stairs now too). The F runs frequently enough and the G supplements the service fine, and it doesn't save enough time to warrant express service IMO.

 

You are sooo considerate of those Park Slope passengers!

[TeeLow]

Either 204/Webster, or straight to Botanical Gardens (stop on Webster)...techincally the 3rd avenue portion in the Bronx would be more of a 3rd ave/webster line than pure 3rd ave because towards the northern Bronx Webster is the happening place. That also provides Fordham with direct subway service too.

 

Makes sense. I forgot about Webster

 

G trains would be lengthened to at least 6 75' cars (or 8 60' cars) to do this safely, but very slightly fewer G trains would be run to make it possible. G to 71 would be full time. V would be same as now, weekdays only, 2nd ave to CTL. With just the less frequently running G and the V turning at CTL (since R would be thru service to 179), that may work since CTL can't turn 3 services, but it can turn 2.

 

Yeah you prolly could get away with that. Still would be a little hectic during the rush

 

F would be local in Brooklyn because expressing it wouldn't save that much time, and Park Slope residents would lose their one seat ride to Manhattan which means taking the G and transferring (which for those that want to see Bergen lower open again would mean them having to climb up stairs now too). The F runs frequently enough and the G supplements the service fine, and it doesn't save enough time to warrant express service IMO.

 

You are sooo considerate of those Park Slope passengers!

[LTA1992]

This is really radical but NOT impossibe, so i dont want to hear excuses to why it cant be done:

 

Extend the from 148th Street to the Bronx and connect it to the between 161 and 167.

 

Extend the to Co-Op City.

 

Extend the from 125 to Co-Op city Connection to the .

Extend the to Throgs neck. (Not everybody over there wants to take a cab at 1am)

 

Extend the South to brooklyn via 5th Avenue/39th Street/Avenue J/Flatlands Avenue to Starret City.

Extend the to Valley Stream and convert the line to four tracks from 3

to 4 and create a new line. This Express/Local Configueration will run between Rosedale and Just before Queensboro Plaza.

 

Extend the line to Lefferts and the Liberty Avenue Line to Valley Stream

(Hey, atleast you wont have to worry about which train to take)

 

Extend the To kings Plaza and build a new lower express level. Trains terminating at Flatbush Avenue as Trains continue to Kings Plaza. Connection to the lower level will be between President and Sterling Streets.

Extend the line to Jamaica Center and converting the New lots line and the extension to 4 tracks so expresses can continue uninterrupted.

 

Build the Worth Street Line and extend the Houston Street line train to the South 4th Street Junction. will become the 8th Avenue Express and a new line will be created to replace it as local. will terminate at WTC and run Rush Hours. It will also run Nights and Weekends when the ( isnt running. The will run all times. The Utica Avenue(E) line will run as the Utica Avenue Express. The new extensin will serve as the Utica Avenue Local.

 

A new Local/Express Level under the current Queens Blvd line for the and Services.

 

The will be extended past Jamaica Center to Little Neck Queens.

 

A new line will serve as the planned Lafayette avenue line extension from Coney Island to Jamaica Center via Myrtle Avenue/Jamaica Avenue.

[MTR Admiralty]

My responses in colour:

This is really radical but NOT impossibe, so i dont want to hear excuses to why it cant be done:

 

Extend the from 148th Street to the Bronx and connect it to the between 161 and 167.

How are you going to go about this one? Is it needed?

Extend the to Co-Op City.

Make sense, as that was the original plan. However, you should give a corridor for this alignment.

Extend the from 125 to Co-Op city Connection to the .

:confused: Elaborate further. How will you do this? What is your proposed alignment in the Bronx?

Extend the to Throgs neck. (Not everybody over there wants to take a cab at 1am)

Again, which alignment? There are multiple ways of accessing Throgs Neck. Tremont Ave? Lafayette Ave?

Extend the South to brooklyn via 5th Avenue/39th Street/Avenue J/Flatlands Avenue to Starret City.

I don't think that 5th Avenue needs a subway. There is already the 4th Avenue Line.

Extend the to Valley Stream and convert the line to four tracks from 3

to 4 and create a new line. This Express/Local Configueration will run between Rosedale and Just before Queensboro Plaza.

If you are going to say extending the line to Port Washington, it would make more sense. But Valley Stream? Have you looked at the Queens map? It's near Southeast Queens? That's a LONG way from Flushing! It would make more sense sending the E there (as it was built for going to SE Queens)

Extend the line to Lefferts and the Liberty Avenue Line to Valley Stream

(Hey, atleast you wont have to worry about which train to take)

NIMBYs will probably kill the idea of having a local. Otherwise, the C would have already been serving Lefferts.

Extend the To kings Plaza and build a new lower express level. Trains terminating at Flatbush Avenue as Trains continue to Kings Plaza. Connection to the lower level will be between President and Sterling Streets.

Extend the line to Jamaica Center and converting the New lots line and the extension to 4 tracks so expresses can continue uninterrupted.

Jamaica Ctr??? That's really long. I don't think train crews would like it. And again, how would you connect the New Lots el with JC?

Build the Worth Street Line and extend the Houston Street line train to the South 4th Street Junction. will become the 8th Avenue Express and a new line will be created to replace it as local. will terminate at WTC and run Rush Hours. It will also run Nights and Weekends when the ( isnt running. The will run all times. The Utica Avenue(E) line will run as the Utica Avenue Express. The new extensin will serve as the Utica Avenue Local.

I believe the Worth St Line bellmouth is more or less connected to the local more than the express. Having the E run on Worth St and run express would be a lot of switching.

A new Local/Express Level under the current Queens Blvd line for the and Services.

See the other thread.

The will be extended past Jamaica Center to Little Neck Queens.

Please, look at the Queens bus map. Locate Little Neck and Jamaica Centre. And then, look at how you would draw your line out. And whether or not it will benefit the communities around it. I am not certain if the Little Neck residents would want to be connected to the J. Being connected to the 7 would make more sense.

A new line will serve as the planned Lafayette avenue line extension from Coney Island to Jamaica Center via Myrtle Avenue/Jamaica Avenue.

How and where will it access the Lafayette Ave Line?

[7LineFan]

This is really radical but NOT impossibe, so i dont want to hear excuses to why it cant be done:

Extend the to Valley Stream and convert the line to four tracks from 3

to 4 and create a new line. This Express/Local Configueration will run between Rosedale and Just before Queensboro Plaza.

 

The part which I bolded actually is impossible. The street's not wide enough, and building above or below the current tracks will disrupt service long enough for it not to be worth it.

[MTR Admiralty]

The part which I bolded actually is impossible. The street's not wide enough, and building above or below the current tracks will disrupt service long enough for it not to be worth it.

 

What is more impossible is bringing the 7 into Valley Stream proper.

[Tbirdbassist]

While planning routes one should have Google maps open in another tab if you are utilizing tabbed browsing (ideally Firefox).

[TeeLow]

Nice breakdown

 

While planning routes one should have Google maps open in another tab if you are utilizing tabbed browsing (ideally Firefox).

 

Or at least a handy dandy combo of bus maps and the indespensible can't do without THE MAP. This map not only heals, it cures, mends, revives and restores! And best of all...it's free! B)

[MTR Admiralty]

Nice breakdown

 

 

 

Or at least a handy dandy combo of bus maps and the indespensible can't do without THE MAP. This map not only heals, it cures, mends, revives and restores! And best of all...it's free! B)

 

For me I usually plan my alignments via the bus map first..

THEN, go to those areas to see if they will benefit from them.

[TeeLow]

For me I usually plan my alignments via the bus map first..

THEN, go to those areas to see if they will benefit from them.

 

Yeah these 5 boro bus maps come in handy f'sho.

 

To me most of South and Eastern Qns would benefit from subway lines wherever the tracks were laid cause except for the LIRR aint no rails out there. At 2 in the morn after exiting the Jam Ctr station and I still have a 30 min ride on the Q 85 ahead of me after a 30 min wait. Yowsah!

 

Looks like the fantasy builds are done. Thanks to everyone who joined in on my first thread!

[MTR Admiralty]

Yeah these 5 boro bus maps come in handy f'sho.

 

To me most of South and Eastern Qns would benefit from subway lines wherever the tracks were laid cause except for the LIRR aint no rails out there. At 2 in the morn after exiting the Jam Ctr station and I still have a 30 min ride on the Q 85 ahead of me after a 30 min wait. Yowsah!

 

Looks like the fantasy builds are done. Thanks to everyone who joined in on my first thread!

 

All of East Queens (whether it is Bayside, Fresh Meadows, Oakland Gardens, Douglaston, Little Neck, South Jamaica, Cambria Heights, College Point, Whitestone, Bay Terrace, Rosedale) need subways. There needs to be a crosstown line in the Bronx. Some areas in Brooklyn need subways as well.

[R32 3348]

This is really radical but NOT impossibe, so i dont want to hear excuses to why it cant be done:

 

Extend the from 148th Street to the Bronx and connect it to the between 161 and 167.

 

Extend the to Co-Op City.

 

Extend the from 125 to Co-Op city Connection to the .

Extend the to Throgs neck. (Not everybody over there wants to take a cab at 1am)

 

Extend the South to brooklyn via 5th Avenue/39th Street/Avenue J/Flatlands Avenue to Starret City.

Extend the to Valley Stream and convert the line to four tracks from 3

to 4 and create a new line. This Express/Local Configueration will run between Rosedale and Just before Queensboro Plaza.

 

Extend the line to Lefferts and the Liberty Avenue Line to Valley Stream

(Hey, atleast you wont have to worry about which train to take)

 

Extend the To kings Plaza and build a new lower express level. Trains terminating at Flatbush Avenue as Trains continue to Kings Plaza. Connection to the lower level will be between President and Sterling Streets.

Extend the line to Jamaica Center and converting the New lots line and the extension to 4 tracks so expresses can continue uninterrupted.

 

Build the Worth Street Line and extend the Houston Street line train to the South 4th Street Junction. will become the 8th Avenue Express and a new line will be created to replace it as local. will terminate at WTC and run Rush Hours. It will also run Nights and Weekends when the isnt running. The will run all times. The Utica Avenue(E) line will run as the Utica Avenue Express. The new extensin will serve as the Utica Avenue Local.

 

A new Local/Express Level under the current Queens Blvd line for the and Services.

 

The will be extended past Jamaica Center to Little Neck Queens.

 

A new line will serve as the planned Lafayette avenue line extension from Coney Island to Jamaica Center via Myrtle Avenue/Jamaica Avenue.

Why do you want to extend the from Jamaica Center to Little Neck and the from Flushing to Valley Stream? You should switch those and then it'll make some more sense.

Nothing can be built under Queens Blvd. either without disrupting service. You don't need another level for Queens Blvd.

[MTR Admiralty]

Why do you want to extend the from Jamaica Center to Little Neck and the from Flushing to Valley Stream? You should switch those and then it'll make some more sense.

Nothing can be built under Queens Blvd. either without disrupting service. You don't need another level for Queens Blvd.

 

IIRC, in the original Archer plans, the J was supposed to head to Queens Village and the E was supposed to head to Valley Stream

[R32 3348]

Note how I said SOME more sense.

[MTR Admiralty]

Note how I said SOME more sense.

 

Lol, SOME.

[Tbirdbassist]

I just realized that Queens BLVD is actually, really, really wide and the current subway doesn't take up the entire width. So theoretically, the whole line could be made two tracks wider if building the rest of what already exist of the lower level express tracks would be too difficult/greatly disrupt service.

 

 

I have a feeling that a large amount of that lower level is existing. I'll have to do some question asking to the motormen/relay guys at 71st Continental. The lard lead space between 71st and just past Union Tpke would answer some questions.

[R32 3348]

I had no idea Queens Blvd. had a lower level (aside from the yard leads). Anyone care to elaborate where it is?

[Tbirdbassist]

See this thread I made.

 

http://www.nyctransitforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7641

 

 

 

West of Roosevelt Avenue and possibly more.

[armax1980]

Would be nice to extend some trains to Staten Island, LGA and JFK airport. Extend the 7 line from flushing to great neck along Northern Blvd.

[LTA1992]

My responses in colour:

 

The will basically be an extension of the already existing Lafayette Avenue Line. The will begin at Church Avenue. Right after Bedford-Nostrand, it will switch to those two middle tracks after the station.(If you dont remember, look at the track maps at nycsubway.org).

 

The on 5th Avenue wont be that long. It will ony make like, 3 stops on that street at 10th, Prospect Avenue, and 23rd Street. Besides, Brooklyn needs another cross-boro line besides the . Starret City Residents need another route. That Is very frustrating during rush hours.

 

The , I will scrap the Jamaica idea but revise it so that it extends to Starret City to connect with the .

 

A lower level can be done, like i said in the next post, WHEN THE GROWS A BACKBONE LIKE ITS PREDOCESSORS, IT CAN DEFINITLY BE DONE.

[LTA1992]

The part which I bolded actually is impossible. The street's not wide enough, and building above or below the current tracks will disrupt service long enough for it not to be worth it.

 

Listen, If the gets the boldness and toughness as its predecessors, THEN, its definitely possible.