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NX Express

125 Days Late, a State Budget With New Taxes

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ALBANY-articleLarge.jpg

 

ALBANY — Lawmakers completed one of the latest budgets in New York State history on Tuesday night, passing a last piece of legislation that will raise an additional $1 billion — in part by increasing taxes on the sale of clothing and on a variety of businesses.

 

The state will increase its share of revenue from video gambling machines and will allow a number of casinos to stay open later. Lawmakers also voted to reduce charitable deductions for those who make $10 million or more.

 

But lawmakers rejected a plan to enact a tax change on earnings by hedge fund managers who work in New York but live outside the state. Much of their compensation comes in performance incentives that are considered capital gains and are taxed federally at 15 percent. The change would have made these earnings “ordinary” income, subject to New York State taxes.

 

The move came as hedge funds were being wooed to move out of the state.

 

A vote in the State Senate took place just before 8:30 p.m., ending months of contentious negotiations, with the budget 125 days late. The Assembly had earlier approved the budget, which is projected to be $136.5 billion. Spending will increase by 2.4 percent over the previous budget.

 

Lawmakers had been passing the budget in pieces for several months, amid a stalemate with Gov. David A. Paterson.

 

Democrats, who control the Legislature, feared the indignity of passing the latest budget ever in an election year. The record was set in 2004, when the budget passed on Aug. 11.

 

The last piece of the budget passed on a party-line vote, 32 to 28, with the Senate’s tenuous Democratic majority holding together and no Republicans voting in favor of the measure. Although the Legislature passed a spending plan several weeks ago, it had been at loggerheads with the governor on devising a way to pay for the final part of the budget.

 

“Today the Senate completed the final stages of a fair and responsible budget that works for New Yorkers,” Austin Shafran, a spokesman for the Senate Democrats, said in a statement.

 

Surprisingly, there was almost no debate on the measure, but Senator Dean G. Skelos, the Republican leader, signaled what are sure to be campaign themes for his party in the fall.

 

“Today, Senate Democrats finished voting on a budget that raises taxes by nearly $4 billion,” Mr. Skelos said in a statement, referring to his tally of the total amount of taxes approved in the last few months. “Today’s action also completes one of the latest budgets in state history. What did taxpayers get as a result? They got higher spending and more taxes, but not a single initiative to create any new jobs or improve New York’s economy.”

 

The legislation will eliminate a sales tax exemption on clothing and footwear purchases of less than $110 starting on Oct. 1. That was by far the largest piece of the bill passed Tuesday night; it is expected to raise about $330 million.

 

The legislation also expands tax breaks for film production companies and requires online travel companies to collect sales taxes on hotel rooms.

 

The governor, through a spokesman, hailed the passage of the budget.

 

“Today the state finalized a budget that closes a $9.2 billion budget gap,” said Morgan Hook, Mr. Paterson’s communications director. “This was done primarily through spending cuts and with no borrowing.”

 

“A fiscally responsible budget,” Mr. Hook added, “will help our state turn the corner on this economic crisis and put us on a path to recovery.”

 

A number of other significant measures passed on Tuesday. Lawmakers approved a plan to raise more than $1 billion through uniform, across-the-board cuts to state programs, should Congress fail to approve an increase in Medicaid financing this year. Legislators had long resisted approving the plan, but the governor had insisted on it as it became increasingly uncertain that Congress would increase the financing.

 

Lawmakers also passed a controversial measure requiring that prisoners be counted as residents not of the mostly upstate prisons where they reside, but of the areas where they lived before they were incarcerated. This effort had been fiercely resisted by Republicans, because of the implications the move could have as legislative districts are redrawn by the Legislature.

 

Democrats had championed the measure. “This is an issue of fundamental fairness, and it will empower poor communities because their population will reflect those prisoners,” said Senator Eric T. Schneiderman, a Manhattan Democrat running for attorney general. “If other states follow us, it would represent a major shift of political power back to these poor urban communities.”

 

One notable measure that failed to pass was a bill that would have given the state university system far more autonomy to set its own tuition rates. The plan was being pushed by the chancellor, Nancy L. Zimpher, as a way to help turn around the ailing system.

 

But Democratic leaders pulled the bill twice after it was clear both times that it would not pass.

 

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/04/nyregion/04albany.html?_r=1&ref=nyregion

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I like how there's more spending in this budget, despite the fiscal crisis we're going through.

 

I also like how the rich who don't even live here get a break again while the working class gets stuck with the bill. Wall Street screws up and we clean up. Why not just give the state up to the hedge fund managers and banks on a silver platter while you're at it Paterson.

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.... Why not just give the state up to the hedge fund managers and banks ...

 

Facts about the "Obama is a socialist" debate.

Compare four socialist countries with the US!

 

.................................................. .......Sweden (socialism)............USA ("freedom")

 

Human Development Index.........................................0.96 3...................0.956

Nominal GDP per capita..........................................44 ,400....................47,000

Death penalty........................................... ..............No......................Yes

Peace Index rank.............................................. .....10........................85

Homicide rate.............................................. .........0.92......................5.4

Prison population per 100,000 inhabitants....................82................. .......756

Life expectancy in years.......................................80.9.. .......................78.2

Unemployment rate.............................................. ...9.3%.....................9.5%

Public debt of GDP............................................... 35.80%.....................52.90%

Current account balance.......................................+29. 50..................−380.1

Infant mortality rate.............................................. ..2.5...........................6.7

Healthcare costs of GDP..........................................9.2%. ......................16%

Physicians per 1000 people.........................................3.6 .........................2.4

Income equality (Gini)............................................ ...23%.......................45% (higher means more inequality)

Welfare expenditure of GDP...................................... 38.2%.......................19.4%

Press Freedom (Rank)............................................ .........1........................20

AIDS death rate per year.............................................1 00....................22000

PISA rank (math)............................................ ............14........................24

Human height +20 age..............................................1 .779 m...............1.763 m

Humanitarian donation of GNI.............. .......................1.12%.................. 0.20%

Work hours per worker................................................1316..................1777

 

 

.................................................. .........................Germany ............USA

 

Human Development Index......................................... 0.947...................0.956

Nominal GDP per capita..........................................39 ,800....................47,000

Death penalty........................................... ..............No......................Yes

Peace Index rank.............................................. .....16........................85

Homicide rate.............................................. .........0.86......................5.4

Prison population per 100,000 inhabitants...................95................. .......756

Life expectancy in years.......................................79.4.. .......................78.2

Unemployment rate.............................................. ...7.0%.....................9.5% (June 2010)

Public debt of GDP............................................... 72.10%.....................52.90%

Current account balance.......................................+135 .1..................−380.1

Infant mortality rate.............................................. .3.8...........................6.7

Healthcare costs of GDP..........................................10.4% . ......................16%

Physicians per 1000 people.........................................3.5 .........................2.4

Income equality (Gini)............................................ ...28,3%.......................45%

Welfare expenditure of GDP.......................................33.2%... ....................19.4%

Press Freedom (Rank)............................................ .....18........................20

AIDS death rate per year............................................50 0...................22000

PISA rank (math)............................................ ............16........................24

Human height +20 age..............................................1 .780 m...............1.763 m

Humanitarian donation of GNI.............. .......................0.35%.................. 0.20%

Work hours per worker................................................1362.................1777

 

 

.................................................. .........................France ................USA

 

Human Development Index......................................... 0.961...................0.956

Nominal GDP per capita..........................................41 ,600....................47,000

Death penalty........................................... ..............No......................Yes

Peace Index rank.............................................. .....30........................85

Homicide rate.............................................. .........1.60.....................5.4

Prison population per 100,000 inhabitants...................85................. .......756

Life expectancy in years.......................................80.7.. .......................78.2

Unemployment rate.............................................. ...10%.....................9.5%

Public debt of GDP............................................... 77.50%.....................52.90%

Current account balance.......................................−43. 67..................−380.1

Infant mortality rate.............................................. .4.0...........................6.7

Healthcare costs of GDP..........................................11%. ......................16%

Physicians per 1000 people.........................................3.4 .........................2.4

Income equality (Gini)............................................ ...32,7.......................45%

Welfare expenditure of GDP.......................................34.9%... ....................19.4%

Press Freedom (Rank)............................................ .....43....................20

AIDS death rate per year............................................16 00...................22000

PISA rank (math)............................................ ............13........................24

Human height +20 age..............................................1 .770 m...............1.763 m

Humanitarian donation of GNI.............. ....................... 0.46%.................. 0.20%

Work hours per worker................................................1346..................1777

 

 

.................................................. .........................Denmark ................USA

 

Human Development Index......................................... 0.955...................0.956

Nominal GDP per capita..........................................56 ,700....................47,000

Death penalty........................................... ..............No......................Yes

Peace Index rank.............................................. .....7........................85

Homicide rate.............................................. .........1.01.....................5.4

Prison population per 100,000 inhabitants...................77................. .......756

Life expectancy in years.......................................78.3.. .......................78.2

Unemployment rate.............................................. ..6.6%.....................9.5%

Public debt of GDP............................................... 41.60%.....................52.90%

Current account balance.......................................+9.1 0..................−380.1

Infant mortality rate.............................................. .4.4...........................6.7

Healthcare costs of GDP..........................................9,5%. ......................16%

Physicians per 1000 people.........................................no data....................2.4

Income equality (Gini)............................................ ...24,7%.(lowest)..........45%

Welfare expenditure of GDP.......................................37.9%... ....................19.4%

Press Freedom (Rank)............................................ .....1....................20

AIDS death rate per year............................................10 0...................22000

PISA rank (math)............................................ ............12........................24

Human height +20 age..............................................1 .803 m...............1.763 m

Humanitarian donation of GNI.............. ....................... 0.88%.................. 0.20%

Work hours per worker................................................1423..................1777

Edited by Citaro

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Facts about the "Obama is a socialist" debate.

Compare four socialist countries with the US!

 

.................................................. .......Sweden (socialism)............USA ("freedom")

 

Human Development Index.........................................0.96 3...................0.956

Nominal GDP per capita..........................................44 ,400....................47,000

Death penalty........................................... ..............No......................Yes

Peace Index rank.............................................. .....10........................85

Homicide rate.............................................. .........0.92......................5.4

Prison population per 100,000 inhabitants....................82................. .......756

Life expectancy in years.......................................80.9.. .......................78.2

Unemployment rate.............................................. ...9.3%.....................9.5%

Public debt of GDP............................................... 35.80%.....................52.90%

Current account balance.......................................+29. 50..................−380.1

Infant mortality rate.............................................. ..2.5...........................6.7

Healthcare costs of GDP..........................................9.2%. ......................16%

Physicians per 1000 people.........................................3.6 .........................2.4

Income equality (Gini)............................................ ...23%.......................45% (higher means more inequality)

Welfare expenditure of GDP...................................... 38.2%.......................19.4%

Press Freedom (Rank)............................................ .........1........................20

AIDS death rate per year.............................................1 00....................22000

PISA rank (math)............................................ ............14........................24

Human height +20 age..............................................1 .779 m...............1.763 m

Humanitarian donation of GNI.............. .......................1.12%.................. 0.20%

Work hours per worker................................................1316..................1777

 

 

.................................................. .........................Germany ............USA

 

Human Development Index......................................... 0.947...................0.956

Nominal GDP per capita..........................................39 ,800....................47,000

Death penalty........................................... ..............No......................Yes

Peace Index rank.............................................. .....16........................85

Homicide rate.............................................. .........0.86......................5.4

Prison population per 100,000 inhabitants...................95................. .......756

Life expectancy in years.......................................79.4.. .......................78.2

Unemployment rate.............................................. ...7.0%.....................9.5% (June 2010)

Public debt of GDP............................................... 72.10%.....................52.90%

Current account balance.......................................+135 .1..................−380.1

Infant mortality rate.............................................. .3.8...........................6.7

Healthcare costs of GDP..........................................10.4% . ......................16%

Physicians per 1000 people.........................................3.5 .........................2.4

Income equality (Gini)............................................ ...28,3%.......................45%

Welfare expenditure of GDP.......................................33.2%... ....................19.4%

Press Freedom (Rank)............................................ .....18........................20

AIDS death rate per year............................................50 0...................22000

PISA rank (math)............................................ ............16........................24

Human height +20 age..............................................1 .780 m...............1.763 m

Humanitarian donation of GNI.............. .......................0.35%.................. 0.20%

Work hours per worker................................................1362.................1777

 

 

.................................................. .........................France ................USA

 

Human Development Index......................................... 0.961...................0.956

Nominal GDP per capita..........................................41 ,600....................47,000

Death penalty........................................... ..............No......................Yes

Peace Index rank.............................................. .....30........................85

Homicide rate.............................................. .........1.60.....................5.4

Prison population per 100,000 inhabitants...................85................. .......756

Life expectancy in years.......................................80.7.. .......................78.2

Unemployment rate.............................................. ...10%.....................9.5%

Public debt of GDP............................................... 77.50%.....................52.90%

Current account balance.......................................−43. 67..................−380.1

Infant mortality rate.............................................. .4.0...........................6.7

Healthcare costs of GDP..........................................11%. ......................16%

Physicians per 1000 people.........................................3.4 .........................2.4

Income equality (Gini)............................................ ...32,7.......................45%

Welfare expenditure of GDP.......................................34.9%... ....................19.4%

Press Freedom (Rank)............................................ .....43....................20

AIDS death rate per year............................................16 00...................22000

PISA rank (math)............................................ ............13........................24

Human height +20 age..............................................1 .770 m...............1.763 m

Humanitarian donation of GNI.............. ....................... 0.46%.................. 0.20%

Work hours per worker................................................1346..................1777

 

 

.................................................. .........................Denmark ................USA

 

Human Development Index......................................... 0.955...................0.956

Nominal GDP per capita..........................................56 ,700....................47,000

Death penalty........................................... ..............No......................Yes

Peace Index rank.............................................. .....7........................85

Homicide rate.............................................. .........1.01.....................5.4

Prison population per 100,000 inhabitants...................77................. .......756

Life expectancy in years.......................................78.3.. .......................78.2

Unemployment rate.............................................. ..6.6%.....................9.5%

Public debt of GDP............................................... 41.60%.....................52.90%

Current account balance.......................................+9.1 0..................−380.1

Infant mortality rate.............................................. .4.4...........................6.7

Healthcare costs of GDP..........................................9,5%. ......................16%

Physicians per 1000 people.........................................no data....................2.4

Income equality (Gini)............................................ ...24,7%.(lowest)..........45%

Welfare expenditure of GDP.......................................37.9%... ....................19.4%

Press Freedom (Rank)............................................ .....1....................20

AIDS death rate per year............................................10 0...................22000

PISA rank (math)............................................ ............12........................24

Human height +20 age..............................................1 .803 m...............1.763 m

Humanitarian donation of GNI.............. ....................... 0.88%.................. 0.20%

Work hours per worker................................................1423..................1777

 

You gotta take population into account before you can compare the two, we are VERY large compared to these four countries so there's gotta be another way to compare or not do it at all exactly...

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Once again, someone confuses precentages with real numbers.

 

Germany's population is about 81 million, the US is 300 million. That means that those numbers are not as great as your making them out to be. Since there are more people here, the likelyhood of being killed is actually two closer numbers.

 

 

You want to waste most of your money on taking care of lazy a-h-l-s, fine, that's your business. But That is not going to happen here. Obama will be on the jobless line come January 2013.

 

The numbers are relatively, relativley means that the number of inhabitants doesn't matter, just the density and Europe has a higher density than the US so yes we can't compare it. LOL! Even the homicide rate of a single state like california (36.457.549 inhabitants) is higher than the homicide rate of Germany (81,757,600 inhabitants) and Germany has a higher density than california.

 

And Obama isn't a socialist, we have real socialist politicians here and these countries have as lower unemployment rate than the US. Oh and by the way, the republicans are against public transportation and Amtrak.

 

Ok, we take this out:

AIDS death rate per year............................................10 0...................22000

and correct this:

Current account balance.......................................+9.1 0..................−380.1

 

.............................................................................USA............Sweden........Germany.......France......Denmark

current account balance as a percentage of GDP:..........-5.33............+11.35.........+6.58...........-1.63.........+1.70

 

............................................................................Austria.......Norway........Finland.....Italy........Switzerland

...........................................................................+3.16.........+25.73...........+6.08.......-2.65..........+24.26

 

...........................................................................Netherlands.....Belgium

.............................................................................+7.96.............+3.89

 

@SoSpectacular

The same thing!

Edited by Citaro

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Whenever the chance arises, Citaro never fails to get his hating-America-hardon going. As long as he does us all a favor and stays over there.

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Whenever the chance arises, Citaro never fails to get his hating-America-hardon going. As long as he does us all a favor and stays over there.

 

Where is the hate? Is the hate in the facts? This are facts. Is that all what you can say when i bring the facts? I love America and i love Obama and i hate the f**king rascists who are against his politics. But often i hear this argument, if anyone speaks out the truth, he hates America. That's the most stupid answer i've ever heard. I don't hate any country, i just take the facts from the CIA world factbook, OECD and UN. Why you don't want to hear it? Obama is right and there is not enough socialism in your country.

 

By the way, it is Obama who wants the HSR and wants to strengthen the rail and public transportation. If you hate Obama why you don't leave this forum and go to a republican automobile forum?

 

I'm sure that there are enough americans who are thinking like me.

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demo_crying_babies_seal.jpg

 

Replace democratic with republicans and then it makes sense, because the crying baby is a symbol of thousands of babies who grow up in poverty.:tdown:

 

In the US 13.2% are living in poverty, in Cuba just 1%. Is that the reason why i hate America, because i don't want that american people have to live in poverty? Just look at the facts!

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demo_crying_babies_seal.jpg

 

Joe you should know better by now that this is not a dem vs. rep thing...

 

I stand on the common sense side of things...

 

Speaking of common sense, to Kamen Rider, percentages ARE likelihood. Population doesn't matter when determining likelihood from percentages. If you are 0.0005 percent likely to get struck by lightning, you are just as likely to get struck by lightning in a crowd of 10,000 as you are in a crowd of 10,000,000: exactly 0.0005 percent change it happens.

 

This budget is a joke, and I'll tell you all why and it has nothing to do with Democrats vs. Republicans. It has to do with preferential f**king treatment:

 

But lawmakers rejected a plan to enact a tax change on earnings by hedge fund managers who work in New York but live outside the state. Much of their compensation comes in performance incentives that are considered capital gains and are taxed federally at 15 percent. The change would have made these earnings “ordinary” income, subject to New York State taxes.

 

Now, let's try this on for size:

 

But idiot lawmakers rejected a smart plan to close a tax loophole on earnings by hedge fund managers, aka douchebags who make their money gambling with other people's savings, who work in New York but live outside the state. Much of their compensation comes in performance incentives that are considered capital gains and are taxed federally at 15 percent, which is less than the tax rates they would otherwise pay if they did not receive this preferential treatment. They are treated as capital gains, because these incentives come from playing the stock market with other people's money, which they are bound to do as ordinary business by their agreements with their own investors. However, in reality, capital gains tax rates were created to encourage investment in the market by people with their own money as savings, not to reward those who are using other people's money to do ordinary business, charging fees, and then evading taxes through a loophole.

 

The change would have made these earnings ordinary income, subject to New York State taxes, which would have helped put a lot of the burden of financing this grossly bankrupt state on the motherf**kers in the hedge funds who caused a lot of the economic downturn, but in the end legislators are still mewling pussies who are terrified that higher taxes will drive these useless degenerate drains on society into other jurisdictions where they will still enjoy preferential treatment. The mewling pussies are too scared of offending them to understand that the world is a better place without these a**holes skirting taxes and then demanding that their rich bitch kids get a better education than the rest of us, while you all wonder why the suburbs get the lion's share of the ever-growing education budget.

 

Now that's what I call f**king reporting.

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Joe you should know better by now that this is not a dem vs. rep thing...

 

Of course it's not, but that doesn't stop Citaro from blowing his load every time Obie is mentioned.

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Of course it's not, but that doesn't stop Citaro from blowing his load every time Obie is mentioned.

 

I agree with some of the content of what he posts, but I don't agree with anti American sentiment anywhere in the world, and I don't agree with "Europe is better." America has it's problems and it's high time it started fixing them. I just think Europe has more problems. This thread had nothing to do with Obama. I don't even know why Kamen Rider brought him up as this is a STATE issue. Meanwhile I hope you enjoyed the rest of my last post. That shit deserved a Pulitzer.

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I agree with some of the content of what he posts, but I don't agree with anti American sentiment anywhere in the world, and I don't agree with "Europe is better." America has it's problems and it's high time it started fixing them. I just think Europe has more problems. Meanwhile I hope you enjoyed the rest of my last post. That shit deserved a Pulitzer.

 

I'm not against America, i just want a better America, but the only problem Europe has, are the muslim immigrants.

Why you don't think that european policy is better? Look at the facts, which i've posted!

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I'm not against America, i just want a better America, but the only problem Europe has, are the muslim immigrants.

Why you don't think that european policy is better? Look at the facts, which i've posted!

 

Racism, high levels of sovereign debt, a culture of political correctness, and lack of manufacturing. In other words, many of the same issues that plague the US. I think the US is better because I think the US is in a better position to address these issues since we acknowledge all of them here.

 

Immigrants in Europe are marginalized, despite being legal, but that is why IMO Muslim immigrants identify with being Muslim vs. being French or whichever country they live in. Many Muslim immigrants to the US are very peaceful and identify themselves as Americans, however with our sensationalist biased media here, you'd never know because every time one idiot out of several million with an agenda tapes a knife to his sock it's front page news.

 

The facts are the facts, but that doesn't mean that all of European life is better as you are saying it does. I don't consider myself a socialist, I consider myself middle of the road, and right now the US could use a little more socialism because right now there is too much elitism. History has shown in America that when the wealth is well distributed, and this is done so fairly to all, crime drops, and the quality and standard of living both rise.

 

America was founded as a free market system, which some took historically to mean laissez-faire (aka "hands off the economy, just leave it alone"). Every time that's happened, the economy has imploded on itself.

 

A free market therefore cannot be free at all, but that doesn't mean the government should manage all aspects. It means the government should identify and eliminate specific systemic threats. It means the government should bar business practices that are unfair to labor, consumers, competition, or other businesses. It does not mean the government should allow those practices while instead requiring lengthy verbose notification of those practices in legalese. It means the government should be an advocate for domestic businesses, discouraging domestic consumers from buying foreign through the use of tariffs if need be. However the government should not get involved in bailouts, should not provide preferential treatment for certain industries, companies, or sized businesses. The government should not tell individuals that they cannot buy a product believed to harm themselves and only themselves which is known by the public to do so (aka sugary drinks or alcohol). That's not socialism, and that's not capitalism. It's middle of the road, and it's where I stand. It made America the greatest country in the world once - better than all of Europe - and it can do so again.

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Racism,...
Where is racism?

 

high levels of sovereign debt,...

 

Public debt of GDP

 

USA 52.90%

 

Biggest welfare states in Europe: Sweden 35.80%, Switzerland 40.50%, Denmark 41.60%, Finland 44.00%

 

States which cuts welfare and taxes in the past: UK 68.10%, Germany 72.10%, France 77.50%

 

PIGS (very low welfare spendings): Spain 53.20%, Greece 113.40%, Italy 115.20

 

Don't forget: some federal states like california in the US have a higher debt of GDP than Greece

 

a culture of political correctness,...
What's wrong with correctness?

 

and lack of manufacturing.

 

Industrial level (GDP by industrial sector)

 

USA 21.9%, Sweden 26.6%, Denmark 30.7%, Germany 27.1%, UK 23.8%, Italy 25%, Greece 20,8%

 

In other words, many of the same issues that plague the US. I think the US is better because I think the US is in a better position to address these issues since we acknowledge all of them here.

 

Immigrants in Europe are marginalized, despite being legal, but that is why IMO Muslim immigrants identify with being Muslim vs. being French or whichever country they live in. Many Muslim immigrants to the US are very peaceful and identify themselves as Americans, however with our sensationalist biased media here, you'd never know because every time one idiot out of several million with an agenda tapes a knife to his sock it's front page news.

 

The difference is that in the US muslims have to come with a plane and these muslims have money and are educated. In Europe they come by boat and have no money and no education.

 

The facts are the facts, but that doesn't mean that all of European life is better as you are saying it does. I don't consider myself a socialist, I consider myself middle of the road, and right now the US could use a little more socialism because right now there is too much elitism. History has shown in America that when the wealth is well distributed, and this is done so fairly to all, crime drops, and the quality and standard of living both rise.

 

Living is better here: -lower crime rate, -lower poverty rate, -access to healthcare, some countries have lower unemployment rate, higher life expectancy and the ultimative fact is that europeans are taller and have better teeth, we have more high quality companies and better designers, most train technology is coming from Europe, even the bus technology for the Orion was coming from Europe. In the past the US build the 747, today we have the A380.

The reason for that is Reagon, he has ruined your country and Europe has catched up through social security and high level of Industry because of strong union labour force with purchasing power, a healthy workforce and a very good education system.

 

And our companies didn't invest the whole profit on Wall Street like GM.

 

But right, the prosperity times were the 1950, where american design and products were very good and there was no trade deficit, because of a ruined industry that comes from cheap wages=cheap products from China, Wall Street and low human capital.

 

America was founded as a free market system, which some took historically to mean laissez-faire (aka "hands off the economy, just leave it alone"). Every time that's happened, the economy has imploded on itself.

 

"laissez-faire" is shit, that's the reason for your economic problems. Look at your trade deficit! Global competition has ruined your economy.

 

A free market therefore cannot be free at all, but that doesn't mean the government should manage all aspects. It means the government should identify and eliminate specific systemic threats. It means the government should bar business practices that are unfair to labor, consumers, competition, or other businesses. It does not mean the government should allow those practices while instead requiring lengthy verbose notification of those practices in legalese. It means the government should be an advocate for domestic businesses, discouraging domestic consumers from buying foreign through the use of tariffs if need be. However the government should not get involved in bailouts, should not provide preferential treatment for certain industries, companies, or sized businesses. The government should not tell individuals that they cannot buy a product believed to harm themselves and only themselves which is known by the public to do so (aka sugary drinks or alcohol).

 

That's our secret recipe, but in the US you have radical capitalism. We need a mixture of socialism and capitalism. Im not for a planned economy.

By the way, Alstom, EADS (Airbus) and other successfull companies were owned by the gov.

 

That's not socialism, and that's not capitalism. It's middle of the road, and it's where I stand. It made America the greatest country in the world once - better than all of Europe - and it can do so again.

 

Yeah you see our ideas are the same, but fact is that America is a capitalist country and most european states not, they are on the middle of the road.

So yes when America introduce the welfare state it would be the best country in the world, because you haven't problems with muslim immigration. Then i will come over there;)

 

Sorry for my bad english, i wasn't good in english, it's not my native language, i try my best. ;)

Edited by Citaro

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Where is racism?

 

The racism in Europe is displayed most frequently with the large numbers of disenfranchised ethnic minorities living in most European countries. It's not a legislated racism, and it's not blatant in violence, it is reflected in the groups to which citizens of a country claim membership to (which in the case of the minorities, is often different than the country itself). However most Europeans don't recognize this as an issue, so i can't say your response suprises me ;)

 

Public debt of GDP

 

USA 52.90%

 

Biggest welfare states in Europe: Sweden 35.80%, Switzerland 40.50%, Denmark 41.60%, Finland 44.00%

 

States which cuts welfare and taxes in the past: UK 68.10%, Germany 72.10%, France 77.50%

 

PIGS (very low welfare spendings): Spain 53.20%, Greece 113.40%, Italy 115.20

 

Don't forget: some federal states like california in the US have a higher debt of GDP than Greece

 

You're missing my point. There is a correlation, but correlation does not indicate a cause and effect relationship. The US has not taken on its greater load of debt as a result of the lack of welfare programs, rather it has taken on a greater load of debt as a result of two unsustainable wars. Somewhere our objective shifted from what it should have been - finding and killing Bin Laden and the other bastards who were responsible for 9/11 - and turned into this ridiculous effort at nation building where we rebuild countries and then hand the keys over to a fledgling government with a fledgling military and a fledgling police force. Until George W Bush began his program of tax cuts for the wealthy and later altered the scope of the war which he started under the proper premise of finding and killing Bin Laden, the US had actually begun to reduce the national debt, and was not running at a deficit.

 

What's wrong with correctness?

 

A lot of things. You force people into a culture of political correctness and they will eventually rebel in undesired ways. The hippie movement was a direct result of the political correctness that filled the 1950's. Eventually people get sick of wholesome family fun. It's in our nature to want to be a little bit wild and rude sometimes, and an outlet for release has to be available. When people can't be themselves for fear of retribution from laws as a result of the perception of offending someone else, they will bide their time and lash out in the end. If enough people do this at the same time, radicalism spreads.

 

Industrial level (GDP by industrial sector)

 

USA 21.9%, Sweden 26.6%, Denmark 30.7%, Germany 27.1%, UK 23.8%, Italy 25%, Greece 20,8%

 

You're missing my point. My point is that ALL of these industrialization levels are low. This is a problem that the US shares with Europe. I'm not saying one is better than the other, I'm saying both are screwed. China, India, Singapore, and Indonesia control the lion's share of manufacturing and that is NOT a good thing for the rest of the world.

 

The difference is that in the US muslims have to come with a plane and these muslims have money and are educated. In Europe they come by boat and have no money and no education.

 

Some are, some aren't. I've seen many Muslims in this country who come here searching for a peaceful home and all they want to do is work at a deli, sell food, drive a cab, answer phones, or work another job that doesn't indicate a high status level.

 

Living is better here: -lower crime rate, -lower poverty rate, -access to healthcare, some countries have lower unemployment rate, higher life expectancy and the ultimative fact is that europeans are taller and have better teeth, we have more high quality companies and better designers, most train technology is coming from Europe, even the bus technology for the Orion was coming from Europe. In the past the US build the 747, today we have the A380.

 

Height doesn't really mean much. However Europe has a healthier population because America socially and culturally ALLOWS obesity. It's something that should be discouraged, but ultimately allowed, to be consistent with freedom. What I mean by that is obese people are health risks and should have to pay more for insurance. However right now there is no incentive for anyone in America to not be obese. None. We consistently widen our standards here to accomodate the obese.

 

Healthcare could easily be solved without government takeover here in the US. End employer based healthcare. Everyone buys on their own, and jobs include their contributions to healthcare as employee gross pay going forward. All healthcare costs become tax deductible for individuals. Now open up the health insurance marketplace to everyone and allow the sale of insurance across state lines. Voila. As American as it gets. Good old fashioned competition can keep the prices down. And people will have choice in their plans. That alone will reduce some of the costs of care.

 

The reason for that is Reagon, he has ruined your country and Europe has catched up through social security and high level of Industry because of strong union labour force with purchasing power, a healthy workforce and a very good education system.

 

The bottom 3 are important. You need a strong work force, strong unions, and good schools. However people do need to work for their money, they can't just get something for nothing. A government does not have the responsibility to provide for its citizens. It has the responsibility to make sure there is a level playing field between business and consumer, business and employee, and business and business. In a working economy, employees produce for their companies and companies pay them a competitive and respectable living wage. Government also has the responsibility to protect the domestic economy from ANY and ALL foreign threats.

 

And our companies didn't invest the whole profit on Wall Street like GM.

 

The problem is that in Europe and the US, as shown by the industrialization figures you gave, the stock market IS the economy. And that's not good because the economy gets tied to what the market does. That's like walking into a casino and betting 30% of GDP on black at the roulette table every year.

 

It also means that the rest of industry must come from overseas, so all countries run trade deficits whereby they send money out the country to provide goods for citizens. Meanwhile, more people would be employed if that country just made those things themselves. But the foreign goods are cheaper, and the govt's job is to make them not cheaper, whether through the use of tariffs or even quotas. Europe may make more things than the US but remember many raw materials still come from overseas so the problem is still there.

 

But right, the prosperity times were the 1950, where american design and products were very good and there was no trade deficit, because of a ruined industry that comes from cheap wages=cheap products from China, Wall Street and low human capital.

 

"laissez-faire" is shit, that's the reason for your economic problems. Look at your trade deficit! Global competition has ruined your economy.

 

Laissez faire is shit. It's a bastardization of free market principles that does not work, and has been proven wrong time and time again.

 

That's our secret recipe, but in the US you have radical capitalism. We need a mixture of socialism and capitalism. Im not for a planned economy.

 

That I can agree with, you need a balance of things to have the best of things. Nothing works when carried to its logical extreme, so you need balance.

 

So yes when America introduce the welfare state it would be the best country in the world, because you haven't problems with muslim immigration. Then i will come over there;)

 

Like I said my big issue is the phrase "welfare state" because that implies something for nothing. I still believe government's role to be as legislator to prevent unfair play. Sort of like a referee, blow the play dead, and award a penalty kick or a free throw when somebody got screwed over. However it's not there to assist the losing team if they're losing fair, and it's certainly not there to help the winning team pour it on. It needs to be impartial to domestic forces and protective against foreign forces. That's it.

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The racism in Europe is displayed most frequently with the large numbers of disenfranchised ethnic minorities living in most European countries. It's not a legislated racism, and it's not blatant in violence, it is reflected in the groups to which citizens of a country claim membership to (which in the case of the minorities, is often different than the country itself). However most Europeans don't recognize this as an issue, so i can't say your response suprises me :D

 

I have friends from Afghanistan and Turkey, so for what i can say for me, im not racist and when you say that there is no legislated racism then it is better here, because i've seen many videos with racist US-Cops.

 

You're missing my point. There is a correlation, but correlation does not indicate a cause and effect relationship. The US has not taken on its greater load of debt as a result of the lack of welfare programs, rather it has taken on a greater load of debt as a result of two unsustainable wars. Somewhere our objective shifted from what it should have been - finding and killing Bin Laden and the other bastards who were responsible for 9/11 - and turned into this ridiculous effort at nation building where we rebuild countries and then hand the keys over to a fledgling government with a fledgling military and a fledgling police force. Until George W Bush began his program of tax cuts for the wealthy and later altered the scope of the war which he started under the proper premise of finding and killing Bin Laden, the US had actually begun to reduce the national debt, and was not running at a deficit.

 

We also are in several wars, the french have troops in Africa, we in Southeast Europe and Afghanistan, the Brits were in Iraq.

 

A lot of things. You force people into a culture of political correctness and they will eventually rebel in undesired ways. The hippie movement was a direct result of the political correctness that filled the 1950's. Eventually people get sick of wholesome family fun. It's in our nature to want to be a little bit wild and rude sometimes, and an outlet for release has to be available. When people can't be themselves for fear of retribution from laws as a result of the perception of offending someone else, they will bide their time and lash out in the end. If enough people do this at the same time, radicalism spreads.

 

I thought that there is more radicalism in Europe, but in the reality in Europe radicalism is on the streets, in the US radical groups are killer groups. Your Nazis movement is more dangerous than every Nazi Movement in Europe.

 

You're missing my point. My point is that ALL of these industrialization levels are low. This is a problem that the US shares with Europe. I'm not saying one is better than the other, I'm saying both are screwed. China, India, Singapore, and Indonesia control the lion's share of manufacturing and that is NOT a good thing for the rest of the world.

 

Yeah, but as you can see in my facts is that the US has a bigger problem with China than we have, but yeah you are right free trade is shit.

 

Some are, some aren't. I've seen many Muslims in this country who come here searching for a peaceful home and all they want to do is work at a deli, sell food, drive a cab, answer phones, or work another job that doesn't indicate a high status level.

Ok, but if a muslim comes to the US, which nearly all muslims hate, than he has to be a peaceful person. Also, your Border Security wouldn't let him in your country, in Europe they are illegal or search for asylum.

 

Our crime rate is lower than in the US, but if more immigrants come to Europe, it will be doubled soon.

Watch the video, that has nothing to do with racism, they want to overtake Europe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iN13ma9bc2khttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaPz7p-1-bk

f**king muslims should burn in hell!!!

 

Height doesn't really mean much. However Europe has a healthier population because America socially and culturally ALLOWS obesity. It's something that should be discouraged, but ultimately allowed, to be consistent with freedom. What I mean by that is obese people are health risks and should have to pay more for insurance. However right now there is no incentive for anyone in America to not be obese. None. We consistently widen our standards here to accomodate the obese.

 

Now you are missing my point, because i don't talk about obesity (our gov spending much money on welfare cures and sport programs). I'm talkring about how high a person is. It has something to do with sufficient nutrition and yeah access to healthcare. But it isn't just the healthcare, for example France has enacted a 35-hour workweek by law, and similar results have been produced in other countries such as Germany through collective bargaining. In the US, persons have to work 70-80 hours a weak with lower wages and without health insurance. You can't be healthy if you work so much and eat so less.

 

Healthcare could easily be solved without government takeover here in the US. End employer based healthcare. Everyone buys on their own, and jobs include their contributions to healthcare as employee gross pay going forward. All healthcare costs become tax deductible for individuals. Now open up the health insurance marketplace to everyone and allow the sale of insurance across state lines. Voila. As American as it gets. Good old fashioned competition can keep the prices down. And people will have choice in their plans. That alone will reduce some of the costs of care.

 

Competition is the problem, not just because the companies are spending more on commercials than on real medicine. Competition doesn't work in parts where people can't check what works what is wrong. Many people in the US hate the NHS, but it is the most efficient health system in the world. There are some things, which should be better (hygenic), but look how much money it costs and then how much money your system costs!

 

The bottom 3 are important. You need a strong work force, strong unions, and good schools. However people do need to work for their money, they can't just get something for nothing. A government does not have the responsibility to provide for its citizens. It has the responsibility to make sure there is a level playing field between business and consumer, business and employee, and business and business. In a working economy, employees produce for their companies and companies pay them a competitive and respectable living wage. Government also has the responsibility to protect the domestic economy from ANY and ALL foreign threats.

 

Yeah, but it doesn't work without the gov as you can see, here in Europe the governments have to strenghten the unions, because companies have more power.

 

The problem is that in Europe and the US, as shown by the industrialization figures you gave, the stock market IS the economy. And that's not good because the economy gets tied to what the market does. That's like walking into a casino and betting 30% of GDP on black at the roulette table every year.

 

Right!B)

 

It also means that the rest of industry must come from overseas, so all countries run trade deficits whereby they send money out the country to provide goods for citizens. Meanwhile, more people would be employed if that country just made those things themselves. But the foreign goods are cheaper, and the govt's job is to make them not cheaper, whether through the use of tariffs or even quotas. Europe may make more things than the US but remember many raw materials still come from overseas so the problem is still there.

 

 

Right, free trade is the problem, it is weaken the unions and the industry.

 

Laissez faire is shit. It's a bastardization of free market principles that does not work, and has been proven wrong time and time again.

 

That I can agree with, you need a balance of things to have the best of things. Nothing works when carried to its logical extreme, so you need balance.

:)

 

Like I said my big issue is the phrase "welfare state" because that implies something for nothing. I still believe government's role to be as legislator to prevent unfair play. Sort of like a referee, blow the play dead, and award a penalty kick or a free throw when somebody got screwed over. However it's not there to assist the losing team if they're losing fair, and it's certainly not there to help the winning team pour it on. It needs to be impartial to domestic forces and protective against foreign forces. That's it.

 

The welfare state protects people so that they don't become a criminal or get sick or weak so that they can't get a new job. Also it helps to protect a standard of wages.

Edited by Citaro

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What I don't think you fully understand about the US healthcare system is that it is actually very non competitive. The way it works is if you have an employer, they cover a good deal of the cost of your premiums for you. You pay a lower premium as a result of being employed. Meanwhile when you lose a job or if you are self employed, you have to buy insurance at the higher rates without the benefit of the employer's contribution. That hurts those who need it most by tying healthcare to employment instead of it being something like car insurance that each person is responsible for on their own.

 

Secondly, and more importantly, because of employer provided health care, the employer chooses the plans for which employees are eligible. That eliminates competition. Many employers only offer one provider, and many more offer just two. Where is the competition? If Blue Cross/Blue Shield offers a great plan that I'd want, but my employer only supports Aetna/US Healthcare or Cigna, then I'm out of luck. I either get one of the plans I don't really want because my employer is going to contribute to it, or I go rogue and get BC/BS, but I have to pay for 100% of the cost of premiums out of my own pocket. That's not competition because the choice is basically already made for you by your employer which plan you'll get. And if that plan doesn't include certain things, c'est la vie, you get it because it's what your employer is willing to pay for. Employers will not match their contributions for one plan to another unsupported plan.

 

By opening up the insurance industry you create competition where there is none. And that drives prices down. The government's only roles in this should be, first, to regulate business practices and make sure that insurers are honoring the terms of their service to customers. The government's other role is to find those who are trying to commit fraud, and punish them financially for an amount larger than the crime they've committed. However, that's an area the US is terrible at. People are very willing to commit 2 million dollar frauds if the punishment for those size frauds is less than 1 million dollars and a little bit of "jail time" (note quotes) in a country club. If I was in charge every white collar criminal would go to federal "pound me in the ass" prison and pay off DOUBLE what the damages of their crime were. Their wordly possessions would be sold to pay for their prison suit and their 3 meals a day. They would get NOTHING when they got out, except what was left. And if they gave their stolen money to wifey or baby, wifey or baby would lose it all too because it wasn't theirs in the first place. But that's just me, and some people think that's too radical.

 

As for unions, the government has a responsibility to ensure fair dealing. Right now corp's are more powerful so the government should be siding with the unions to level the playing field. However unions can get too powerful too and that impedes progress when strikes over nonvital issues shut down production. So while I agree with you that right now unions need help, it doesn't mean they always will. In my world, government's job is to keep things in a balance so that they can work by themselves. I don't think government's job is to "make things work."

 

Our work weeks are so long with such low pay because executive would rather pay themselves fat bonuses than hire more workers (reducing unemployment) and better distributing the workload. Also many jobs alternate between periods of very high workload and very low (sometimes nonexistent) workload. However it is the new thing to keep salaried employees "available" and sitting at work ON THE JOB doing nothing while pretending to do somethign (rather than at home on call) which contributes to some of those figures. I know because I worked one of those jobs, and quit.

 

The reason there is less radicalism on the streets here is because we let people, for the most part, be themselves. The radical groups that do form tend to be violent because they are extremists all the way at the other end of the spectrum. However radicalism is very far from the mainstreat here. Most people don't want to "upset the apple cart" because they are not made to feel stifled by culture. However, that trend is starting to grow, and it could have some effects in the future.

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Ok,

 

Healthcare: Okay, i believe it, but nevertheless i'm for national healthcare. I think that both could work, public and private healthcare. I don't understand the fear that some americans have because of public healthcare.

 

Fact is that europeans are healthier and that is just one aspect why the standard of living is better here.

 

Here we have laws that regulates work hours and the gov are more socialistic so they had reduced work hours in the past. In last time they cut welfare and regulations, it's a dangerous development, but it is still better than the US working conditions.

 

 

By the way, look at the current economic situation in Germany, high growth and the low unemployment. There is a good chance that we have next month less than two millions unemployed our export industry works under full load while your trade deficit is growing and the unemployment rate is still very high.

 

So i wouldn't say that european policy isn't better.

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Facts about the "Obama is a socialist" debate.

Compare four socialist countries with the US!

 

..................

 

You love showing that socialism-freedom chart dont you. lol

 

My gripes about the budget is that the priority of the rich is set above the priority of everyone else (the people who really need the priority right now). How our "freedom" in economics once again is at the detriment of society's interests. Like how we can pay more because we're poor and we're not going anywhere, but make sure the hedge fund managers butts are not taxed, not asked to contribute and are kissed in the right fashion.

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You love showing that socialism-freedom chart dont you. lol

 

My gripes about the budget is that the priority of the rich is set above the priority of everyone else (the people who really need the priority right now). How our "freedom" in economics once again is at the detriment of society's interests. Like how we can pay more because we're poor and we're not going anywhere, but make sure the hedge fund managers butts are not taxed, not asked to contribute and are kissed in the right fashion.

 

Exactly. I also should add that this is something that would have been extremely easy to pitch to NY consituents because it is largely targeted to tax people who do not live in NY State (many of these hedge fund managers live in NJ and CT). Therefore the people most likely to be opposed to this don't even have the ability to vote these idiots out of office! And STILL they're too scared of offending the rich to do anything :mad::mad:

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