Are they for real? More reduced service in Brooklyn

[Via Garibaldi 8]

It's supply and demand. Plus there aren't that many lines that need LTD service that don't already have it.

 

My point is that local bus service should be paramount before any sort of limited service, so if you're cutting basic local service on a route that can't really afford more cuts like the B36, with few to no alternatives, but adding more limited stop service to a line like the M15 which also has local service and nearby service on Lexington Ave and 3rd Ave., I can see how it can be a bit unnerving, even if it was planned. It's not as if local bus riders on the M15 are paying more to get limited service.

 

P.S. When I say limited service, I don't include express bus service, as that is a whole different matter.

 

Also, to the poster that said that they lost limited stop service, you say that as if the old limited stop service was doing great on the M15. You were given a better, quicker service at the same price, along with new buses and more frequency...

[East New York]

My point is that local bus service should be paramount before any sort of limited service, so if you're cutting basic local service on a route that can't really afford more cuts like the B36, with few to no alternatives, but adding more limited stop service to a line like the M15 which also has local service and nearby service on Lexington Ave and 3rd Ave., I can see how it can be a bit unnerving, even if it was planned. It's not as if local bus riders on the M15 are paying more to get limited service.

 

P.S. When I say limited service, I don't include express bus service, as that is a whole different matter.

 

Also, to the poster that said that they lost limited stop service, you say that as if the old limited stop service was doing great on the M15. You were given a better, quicker service at the same price, along with new buses and more frequency...

 

None of those other lines you talk about carry more than 100,000 passengers a week either. The Lex/3av lines carry more than 200,000 collectively. The B36, which is only receiving minor cuts transports a mere 32,000 people. Lex/3 is not a viable alternative to 1/2 avs. The TA is basically working this out by line priority. Manhattan, Bronx, and Brooklyn heavy lines are first priority. Followed by Queens and SI. I take it you don't frequent the M15 like I used to almost daily.

 

The only line that is really screwed is the B46, which is the heaviest used line in the system. Due to the logistics of the route, it will unfortunately never be able to run an effective SBS service. The TA thinks they can solve this over capacity problem by implementing SBS on the B44. It will take a little pressure off the line, but not much. I have rode the B46 plenty of times and I know for a fact that the B44 SBS alone will not address the issues of the line.

[Nova RTS 9147]

Also, to the poster that said that they lost limited stop service, you say that as if the old limited stop service was doing great on the M15. You were given a better, quicker service at the same price, along with new buses and more frequency...

 

It wasn't doing great on the (M15). The limited was just as slow and annoying as the local, and if you rode it south of the Queensboro bridge, you weren't saving any time over the local bus, and much like SBS, you could see huge gaps in limited service during the midday and on a bad day during rush hour.

 

What I'm trying to say is that we're getting roughly the same frequency of SBS service as we did with the limited. There has been a great improvement in how long it takes to get from point A to B, but the in terms of us getting more service as a result from the cuts in Brooklyn, is just false.

 

Also, I take it you're not a east side rider since the M101/2/3 is notoriously infrequent and unpredictable schedule wise. And lets not throw stones about the proximity to the subway since the same can be said about the B25, former B39, B44 and former B51.

 

The TA thinks they can solve this over capacity problem by implementing SBS on the B44. It will take a little pressure off the line, but not much. I have rode the B46 plenty of times and I know for a fact that the B44 SBS alone will not address the issues of the line.

 

They're looking at the M15 improvements and assuming that they can get the same results on the B44. Huge mistake!

[Via Garibaldi 8]

It wasn't doing great on the (M15). The limited was just as slow and annoying as the local, and if you rode it south of the Queensboro bridge, you weren't saving any time over the local bus, and much like SBS, you could see huge gaps in limited service during the midday and on a bad day during rush hour.

 

What I'm trying to say is that we're getting roughly the same frequency of SBS service as we did with the limited. There has been a great improvement in how long it takes to get from point A to B, but the in terms of us getting more service as a result from the cuts in Brooklyn, is just false.

 

Also, I take it you're not a east side rider since the M101/2/3 is notoriously infrequent and unpredictable schedule wise. And lets not throw stones about the proximity to the subway since the same can be said about the B25, former B39, B44 and former B51.

 

 

 

They're looking at the M15 improvements and assuming that they can get the same results on the B44. Huge mistake!

 

Being from Brooklyn, I've rode just about all of the bus lines all over Brooklyn and most in Manhattan, so I'm aware of the problems on both the B36 and the M15. The M15 is extremely slow and suffers from terrible bunching, which is why I avoided using it whenever possible when I used to take the Ferry into the city. However, I think the same argument can be said about most Manhattan lines... I applaud its implementation, but rather than pouring so much attention into the M15, they should be focusing on getting the 2nd Ave subway done quicker. That would relieve a lot of stress on the line almost immediately.

 

I went to Sheepshead Bay HS and IS 43 and lived near the Sheepshead Bay train station for almost 20 years before moving to Midwood briefly, so I used to use the B4, B36, the B44 and B49 a lot. While the B36 isn't a huge carrier like the M15 is, it is still a very essential line for Southern Brooklyn. Without it those without a car would have long walks to other alternatives. The commute from Sheepshead Bay via subway is 45 minutes at the least (with it being maybe 10 - 15 minutes quicker on the express) and so when you factor in the bus ride you could be looking at an hour and a half easily. I just think the MTA needs to focus more on the outer boroughs in general. It's not necessarily all about adding more service, but about finding ways to make service quicker. More could be done for example to make transfers better between buses and subways.

[East New York]

^SAS construction is going full speed ahead for the first time ever. Besides that, it will be quite a while before the entire is up and running. 1/2 avs demand better service right now, not later. As I said, supply and demand takes priority over everything.

 

And the TA is NOT cutting the B36, so your arguement is somewhat irrelevant.

['89 Liberty MCI]

They are going to cut runs on Sundays on that B36. Not the whole route, but still some runs getting cut. The B36 could be a nice line since the headways are nice on paper, but for some reason I go back there during the midday and see throngs of people waiting for it on Nostrand from Avenue U to Avenue Z where there shouldn't be throngs of people. I know the stores, projects, and other apartment buildings are back there, but still there shouldn't be that many people waiting at those stops. The B36 is supposed to have nice headway but I see them bunched up going to Avenue U, then they're late so they have to bring it back dark to (I'm guessing) Sheepshead Bay train station or Stillwell Avenue in a doomsday scenario and they miss everybody on Nostrand. I don't know if it's traffic or open runs and where the traffic is. If the traffic is killing the line it seems like it should be either re-routed or split like the B61/62. Plus if the open runs are an issue, then if they split it and put the eastern half in another depot (Flatbush), maybe that depot will be more reliable about covering runs.

 

Also there is a code 4362 for B36 KINGS PLAZA, so the eastern half could go beyond Nostrand/U and the idea of this K/P extension will be realized. In addition I don't mean to knock Ulmer Park if I am incorrect about the open runs. If anyone knows what the problem is I would like to know.

['89 Liberty MCI]

I didn't realize they wanted to use the B44 like that to relieve pressure on the B46. What would be nice and I'm sure TA is looking into it is if they make most of the lines semi-select. So even if a line can't have any bus lanes, they should all have the off-board fare payment system. Signal priority on every line might be weird since you'll have all these 'priority' lines criss-crossing, but the off-board fare payment on every line (full select/bus lanes or not) will be a huge benefit. The B46 should get it.

 

Well maybe not all. A study needs to be done to determine whether the cost of installing the machines in more stops is manageable and can be offset by an increase in revenue. There are probably some lines that don't carry much but would be more costly with off-board fare payment. On the other hand if it's faster you'd think it would attract more people but that's a bit of a gamble.

[checkmatechamp13]

My point is that local bus service should be paramount before any sort of limited service, so if you're cutting basic local service on a route that can't really afford more cuts like the B36, with few to no alternatives, but adding more limited stop service to a line like the M15 which also has local service and nearby service on Lexington Ave and 3rd Ave., I can see how it can be a bit unnerving, even if it was planned. It's not as if local bus riders on the M15 are paying more to get limited service.

 

P.S. When I say limited service, I don't include express bus service, as that is a whole different matter.

 

Also, to the poster that said that they lost limited stop service, you say that as if the old limited stop service was doing great on the M15. You were given a better, quicker service at the same price, along with new buses and more frequency...

 

Nova RTS 9147 meant that the service was faster, but it wasn't a huge increase in frequency or anything like that. And, like I said, everybody (including the MTA) benefits when buses run faster.

 

I didn't realize they wanted to use the B44 like that to relieve pressure on the B46. What would be nice and I'm sure TA is looking into it is if they make most of the lines semi-select. So even if a line can't have any bus lanes, they should all have the off-board fare payment system. Signal priority on every line might be weird since you'll have all these 'priority' lines criss-crossing, but the off-board fare payment on every line (full select/bus lanes or not) will be a huge benefit. The B46 should get it.

 

Well maybe not all. A study needs to be done to determine whether the cost of installing the machines in more stops is manageable and can be offset by an increase in revenue. There are probably some lines that don't carry much but would be more costly with off-board fare payment. On the other hand if it's faster you'd think it would attract more people but that's a bit of a gamble.

 

I asked a question about signal priority here: http://www.nyctransitforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26650

 

When two lines with traffic signal priority intersect, the line that already has the green light has it extended until it gets through the intersection, so it isn't a problem.

 

And with the off-board fare payment, obviously, they would only put it on the busiest lines with limited-stop service, so they wouldn't have to worry about the cost of fare machines.

 

By the way, I think your idea is great. Just because it can't be true +SBS+ doesn't mean they can't at least try to make it as fast as possible.

[East New York]

I didn't realize they wanted to use the B44 like that to relieve pressure on the B46. What would be nice and I'm sure TA is looking into it is if they make most of the lines semi-select. So even if a line can't have any bus lanes, they should all have the off-board fare payment system. Signal priority on every line might be weird since you'll have all these 'priority' lines criss-crossing, but the off-board fare payment on every line (full select/bus lanes or not) will be a huge benefit. The B46 should get it.

 

Well maybe not all. A study needs to be done to determine whether the cost of installing the machines in more stops is manageable and can be offset by an increase in revenue. There are probably some lines that don't carry much but would be more costly with off-board fare payment. On the other hand if it's faster you'd think it would attract more people but that's a bit of a gamble.

 

While I think that is a great idea, I'm not sure anything would help the B46. I say this only because ridership is actually higher than stated. That line is farebeat central! I can't even recall a time during rush hour when I DIDN'T see anyone board from the rear.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

^SAS construction is going full speed ahead for the first time ever. Besides that, it will be quite a while before the entire is up and running. 1/2 avs demand better service right now, not later. As I said, supply and demand takes priority over everything.

 

And the TA is NOT cutting the B36, so your arguement is somewhat irrelevant.

 

Maybe its irrelevant to those not using the line. Sure they're not cutting it completely, but when one has a long commute as South Brooklyn residents do those extra minutes are important. We're looking at this from two different perspectives so we won't agree on this one and that's fine. Most of my perspective is from the rider's point of view and yours is from a management point of view and I'm perfectly fine with that. I'm not an expert on the ins and outs of the MTA nor will I ever be, so when I make comments on things I am speaking from my own riding experiences and how the average rider may view the situation.

[East New York]

Maybe its irrelevant to those not using the line. Sure they're not cutting it completely, but when one has a long commute as South Brooklyn residents do those extra minutes are important. We're looking at this from two different perspectives so we won't agree on this one and that's fine. Most of my perspective is from the rider's point of view and yours is from a management point of view and I'm perfectly fine with that. I'm not an expert on the ins and outs of the MTA nor will I ever be, so when I make comments on things I am speaking from my own riding experiences and how the average rider may view the situation.

 

Actually, my point of view 80% of the time is from both a management, and riders point of view. I don't think 10 extra minutes on the weekend is all that bad. Sure it is a hit, but its not as bad as it could be. I do understand where you are coming from, but you are you looking at it from every angle?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Actually, my point of view 80% of the time is from both a management, and riders point of view. I don't think 10 extra minutes on the weekend is all that bad. Sure it is a hit, but its not as bad as it could be. I do understand where you are coming from, but you are you looking at it from every angle?

 

Well I try to be rational yes. I can't look at it from every angle since I don't have access to the figures (be it financial or actual riding stats) that the MTA does, etc. In this instance I am talking from experience of using the B36 and knowing how crowded it gets in certain segments and overall observations. Maybe that's where the confusion comes in at w/me and others.

 

Someone claimed that I wanted to be a B/O... I'm no transit expert though I do know a bit more than the average rider and I have no interest in being a B/O or anything of the sort. I'm just a user of the system and an advocate for the everyday Joe's using the system who wants to understand how the system works (from a usership point of view).

 

Sure, I'm a bus fan and have been since I was a kid and have done my fair share of bus fanning, but at this point and time, I'm more interested in seeing how I can learn more about the system to help improve it for users overall.

[checkmatechamp13]

From a management perspective, you can look at it from the POV that the MTA is facing a budget crisis, so it has to be more frugal with providing service.

 

From a ridership perspective, you can use the stats I posted.

 

Most of the users on these forums have the capability of looking at it from both perspectives. Most of us are frequent riders of the system, but we understand that, for various reasons, the MTA doesn't have access to the funds it used to.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

From a management perspective, you can look at it from the POV that the MTA is facing a budget crisis, so it has to be more frugal with providing service.

 

From a ridership perspective, you can use the stats I posted.

 

Most of the users on these forums have the capability of looking at it from both perspectives. Most of us are frequent riders of the system, but we understand that, for various reasons, the MTA doesn't have access to the funds it used to.

 

I'm not that ignorant about their situation. In fact I've stated previously that I understand that they're in a fiscal crisis and I also understand some of the reasons for that, but I'm not up to snuff as say you are in terms of figures and all of that and in those instances I base my arguments more so on personal experience and years of using certain routes. Now folks have argued that the M15 didn't get that many more SBS buses added and that maybe true, but I haven't seen any figures to prove that, nor any figures showing how much it costs to run those buses they put in.

 

That being said, I don't think that you can run a system based mainly on figures and that's where I think the MTA can do better.

[checkmatechamp13]

Hold on. I think they mentioned the cost at a board meeting. (I doubt it would be much, though)

[East New York]

Well I try to be rational yes. I can't look at it from every angle since I don't have access to the figures (be it financial or actual riding stats) that the MTA does, etc. In this instance I am talking from experience of using the B36 and knowing how crowded it gets in certain segments and overall observations. Maybe that's where the confusion comes in at w/me and others.

 

Someone claimed that I wanted to be a B/O... I'm no transit expert though I do know a bit more than the average rider and I have no interest in being a B/O or anything of the sort. I'm just a user of the system and an advocate for the everyday Joe's using the system who wants to understand how the system works (from a usership point of view).

 

Sure, I'm a bus fan and have been since I was a kid and have done my fair share of bus fanning, but at this point and time, I'm more interested in seeing how I can learn more about the system to help improve it for users overall.

 

All stats and figures are avalable on the TA website.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

All stats and figures are avalable on the TA website.

 

Thanks for info. I normally just use the site for schedules, but I'll do more snooping around now.

[checkmatechamp13]

Go to "Transparancy" and "Board Materials". Those usually have the financial information (though I find it too boring to go through)

 

Ridership stats are available here: http://www.mta.info/nyct/facts/ridership/index.htm

 

The service reduction booklets (Where I get all my stats from) are here: http://www.mta.info/news/stories/?story=11

 

And I have the link for the M15 +SBS+: http://mta.info/mta/news/books/pdf/100726_1045_BUS.pdf (pages 77-84)

 

Page 82 has the budget impact.

['89 Liberty MCI]

And with the off-board fare payment, obviously, they would only put it on the busiest lines with limited-stop service, so they wouldn't have to worry about the cost of fare machines.

 

By the way, I think your idea is great. Just because it can't be true +SBS+ doesn't mean they can't at least try to make it as fast as possible.

 

Locals could use it too. From my observation, the ones that only have local service that could really use the POP are Bx2, Bx3, Bx5, Bx6, Bx7, Bx9, Bx10, Bx15, Bx19, Bx40X42, Q111, B3, B8, B14, B15, B17, B25, B36, B63. Then you have the limited stop buses that could use it even more. Bx1, Bx36, Bx55, Q113, B35.

[checkmatechamp13]

You would need a lot of money to place the machines at every local stop. You're better off just doing it for the limiteds.

[East New York]

Locals could use it too. From my observation, the ones that only have local service that could really use the POP are Bx2, Bx3, Bx5, Bx6, Bx7, Bx9, Bx10, Bx15, Bx19, Bx40X42, Q111, B3, B8, B14, B15, B17, B25, B36, B63. Then you have the limited stop buses that could use it even more. Bx1, Bx36, Bx55, Q113, B35.

 

Now I don't think that would be a good idea at all. The TA would have to spend way too much money on MVM's. Having them at every local bus stop is just too much. And adding them to limited stops would essentially turn them into SBS runs.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Go to "Transparancy" and "Board Materials". Those usually have the financial information (though I find it too boring to go through)

 

Ridership stats are available here: http://www.mta.info/nyct/facts/ridership/index.htm

 

The service reduction booklets (Where I get all my stats from) are here: http://www.mta.info/news/stories/?story=11

 

And I have the link for the M15 +SBS+: http://mta.info/mta/news/books/pdf/100726_1045_BUS.pdf (pages 77-84)

 

Page 82 has the budget impact.

 

Seeing you at that MTA meeting with your suggestions... I was thinking sh*t this guy has some serious patience in terms of how much research you must've did w/figures and such.

[checkmatechamp13]

I'm generally a very patient and studious guy. I'm very good at squeezing things into a schedule (though the thing that often gets neglected is sleep).

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I'm generally a very patient and studious guy. I'm very good at squeezing things into a schedule (though the thing that often gets neglected is sleep).

 

I just hate figures and such, but I'm good w/languages and formulas and such.

 

Okay, now what other lines besides the S79 and S53 could you see with some sort of SBS or a version of it as someone made the case for in another post? I'd say the S48 would be a good candidate or even the S46. The way I see it, Forest Ave is like the main corridor for the North Shore and the S46 gets pretty good usage.

[checkmatechamp13]

I'm good at studying only if I am interested in the subject. For example, I'm interested more in different sciences than in literature, so it is easier to convince me to study atomic structure than it is to study Shakespeare.

 

Some things I just don't need to study that much for. For example, I take Italian, but I barely study it because it is very similar to Spanish (which was my first language, though I could use some brushing up on it).

 

The thing about +SBS+ is that it has to be an enhanced limited-stop service, and the limited-stop service has to be all all-day type deal. Plus, it probably has to be more frequent than the average limited.

 

Personally, the only route that could probably fit those qualifications is the S48, but even then, not in the present form. The S48 has 12-15 minute headways on weekends, and, in order to qualify for a limited, the route has to have 6 minute headways (so local passengers won't have to wait more than 12 minutes for a limited, since every other bus would become a limited)

 

What I would do is reroute the S98 to serve Newark Airport, and then run the service 24/7. That way, you serve a brand-new corridor, which means that the S98 will get very high ridership from both interstate passengers and local passengers (riders will be more inclined to use the service, as the frequencies have been doubled).

 

The problem is that this wouldn't be "true" +SBS+ service in the sense that bus lanes couldn't be created in many parts (though they should be created where possible).

 

Personally, I think there are areas in NYC that need some type of +SBS+ service more (or at least, they already have the ridership and headways for it). Routes in Eastern Queens like the Q5 and Q46 come to mind. (The commute can be as long as Staten Island, because the riders still have a 20-30 minute commute to Manhattan once they reach the subway)