official North Shore Rail Discussion

[checkmatechamp13]

They don't alternate stops-they get in each other's way. The S98 in the back is unable to bypass the one in the front because Forest Avenue isn't wide enough. Also, the loads aren't even distributed evenly. The first bus will be full and the second bus will be empty. For those 5-10 people on the second S98, if they really want a seat so badly, they can wait another 7 minutes for the next one.

 

And you have to consider the wait times of the people further down the line. When I see an S98 pass by, I get pissed because I know that my trip will be delayed by at least 10 minutes (the next S48 comes 5 minutes later, but it adds at least 5 minutes to the trip to Richmond Avenue). If the next S98 came 7 minutes later, I would be able to bypass the next S48 that came.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

They don't alternate stops-they get in each other's way. The S98 in the back is unable to bypass the one in the front because Forest Avenue isn't wide enough. Also, the loads aren't even distributed evenly. The first bus will be full and the second bus will be empty. For those 5-10 people on the second S98, if they really want a seat so badly, they can wait another 7 minutes for the next one.

 

And you have to consider the wait times of the people further down the line. When I see an S98 pass by, I get pissed because I know that my trip will be delayed by at least 10 minutes (the next S48 comes 5 minutes later, but it adds at least 5 minutes to the trip to Richmond Avenue). If the next S98 came 7 minutes later, I would be able to bypass the next S48 that came.

 

 

Even with the narrow streets on parts of Forest when the X30 or and X14 wants to get by an (S48) the B/O does, even if that means going into the other lane to get around. The B/O just chooses to stay behind the first (S98) since he is probably the "later" one OR just likes riding with an empty bus and since people are too incompetent to spread themselves out between the two buses accordingly, you have one packed bus and one with a few people on it. That has been that way since I was riding it and I doubt it will change since people's level of commonsense continues to decrease. What they do during rush hours sometimes is they have a dispatcher at the terminal who will direct folks on which (S98) or (S48) to get on so as to distribute the passenger load accordingly.

 

I also don't get why you would take the next (S48) when the SRO (S98) passes by if you know another (S98) is coming right behind it???? And you argue that having the next (S98) about 7 minutes behind the first (S98) would allow you to pass the (S48), but yet with them (the (S98)s) running together, you would have more time added on to your commute, so how would having the (S98) come later allow you to bypass the (S48) when you say they can't bypass each other because of the narrow roads AND you'd have the second (S98) coming 7 minutes later??? :confused:

[checkmatechamp13]

You're not understanding me.

 

The time when I usually take the S48/S98 is when I'm coming from the West Brighton YMCA, which is south of Forest Avenue. As I'm walking to the bus stop, sometimes I'll see a bus pass by and see the back flashing (which means it is a limited, since the S98 says "S98", then "Limited", whereas the S48 just says "S48" on the back). When that happens, I know that the next bus will be an S48 (which I always get on).

 

I never said the S98 is incapable of passing the S48. I'm just saying that 2 S98s are incapable of passing each other, since, at every limited stop, there are always going to be people getting on and off, so the one that starts in the back will remain in the back.

 

Let's say somebody is at Victory Blvd/Bay Street and they want to go to Richmond Avenue. Under the current system, 2 S98s will pass by, and then an S48 will pass by a minute later, leaving them to wait 15 minutes for the next S98. If the S98 only ran every 7 minutes, they would only have to wait 7 minutes. In addition, they would probably bypass the S48 in front of them around Decker Avenue.

[SIR North Shore]

You're not understanding me.

 

The time when I usually take the S48/S98 is when I'm coming from the West Brighton YMCA, which is south of Forest Avenue. As I'm walking to the bus stop, sometimes I'll see a bus pass by and see the back flashing (which means it is a limited, since the S98 says "S98", then "Limited", whereas the S48 just says "S48" on the back). When that happens, I know that the next bus will be an S48 (which I always get on).

 

I never said the S98 is incapable of passing the S48. I'm just saying that 2 S98s are incapable of passing each other, since, at every limited stop, there are always going to be people getting on and off, so the one that starts in the back will remain in the back.

 

Let's say somebody is at Victory Blvd/Bay Street and they want to go to Richmond Avenue. Under the current system, 2 S98s will pass by, and then an S48 will pass by a minute later, leaving them to wait 15 minutes for the next S98. If the S98 only ran every 7 minutes, they would only have to wait 7 minutes. In addition, they would probably bypass the S48 in front of them around Decker Avenue.

 

I understand what you're saying but the only way it would make sense to spread to the S98s out is if it was a bi-directional limited. Otherwise it's absolutely fine to have the S98s back-to-back so that everyone gets a seat and a quick ride home. They do the same for the pm rush S94 as well when it's at it's busiest.

[checkmatechamp13]

But what does a bidirectional limited have to do with spreading buses out.

[checkmatechamp13]

All of the documents are now available online: http://www.mta.info/mta/planning/nsaa/documents.html

[Via Garibaldi 8]

You're not understanding me.

 

The time when I usually take the S48/S98 is when I'm coming from the West Brighton YMCA, which is south of Forest Avenue. As I'm walking to the bus stop, sometimes I'll see a bus pass by and see the back flashing (which means it is a limited, since the S98 says "S98", then "Limited", whereas the S48 just says "S48" on the back). When that happens, I know that the next bus will be an S48 (which I always get on).

 

I never said the S98 is incapable of passing the S48. I'm just saying that 2 S98s are incapable of passing each other, since, at every limited stop, there are always going to be people getting on and off, so the one that starts in the back will remain in the back.

 

Let's say somebody is at Victory Blvd/Bay Street and they want to go to Richmond Avenue. Under the current system, 2 S98s will pass by, and then an S48 will pass by a minute later, leaving them to wait 15 minutes for the next S98. If the S98 only ran every 7 minutes, they would only have to wait 7 minutes. In addition, they would probably bypass the S48 in front of them around Decker Avenue.

 

But that's usually the norm with the (S98)s because they usually need two of them to deal with the boatloads of folks getting on at times since they don't have artics, otherwise it would be just one more than likely... As I said before they're usually packed when leaving the terminal so they run two of them together. By the time they reach Forest & Broadway, they usually empty out a bit, so it looks deceiving in that regard. Truth be told, I don't see your beef because it's only about a 10 - 15 minute ride from Forest & Bway to Richmond Ave even with the stops on the local and the S48s usually aren't uber crowded since the folks going far will pick up the (S98).

 

 

If you really want to know who the is thinking about, it's the Ferry riders because they know that those people would be annoyed having to wait even just 7 minutes for the next (S98). I personally hated having to wait for a bus after having schlepped on the subway and Ferry. Understand that you'll spend say 20 minutes or more on the subway, then say you don't link up right away with the Ferry... That's another 20 minute or more wait depending on when you get to the Ferry and then the 25 - 30 minute ride on the Ferry, plus the 20 - 30 minute ride on the bus. Add that up and those 7 minutes do make a difference. Your commute is maybe 20 - 30 minutes compared to some who have an hour and 30 minute to two hour commute depending on where they live... Big difference.

[MikeGerald]

Hi

 

I just have to say that those little red bullets with the bus numbers on them are really difficult to read. I have been meaning to say this for a while, but I get distracted trying to figure out just what bus you're talking about when I can not read those tiny letters. It does not matter whether I zoom the screen larger, and I have tried that. I want to be able to read and understand what you are saying, but the red bullets make that difficult.

 

I just had to say this.

Mike

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Hi

 

I just have to say that those little red bullets with the bus numbers on them are really difficult to read. I have been meaning to say this for a while, but I get distracted trying to figure out just what bus you're talking about when I can not read those tiny letters. It does not matter whether I zoom the screen larger, and I have tried that. I want to be able to read and understand what you are saying, but the red bullets make that difficult.

 

I just had to say this.

Mike

 

I understand... This is something the mods can perhaps fix by making them bigger. I'm referring to the S98 in the previous post...

[Via Garibaldi 8]

But what does a bidirectional limited have to do with spreading buses out.

 

I agree w/SI North. I hate to say it, but like I said before they're not thinking about anyone outside of Ferry terminal. This is why I've argued for bidirectional limited stop service because in this instance it would benefit your commute, even though you've argued that the money isn't there for bidirectional limited stop service, not even a modified one. If they spread out the limited stop buses, people coming from the Ferry would be annoyed about having to wait (even 7 minutes) and since the service is geared for Ferry riders, they'd more than likely get their way, especially with them axing the X16. You could also have an instance of even further crowding on one bus because of the spacing.

 

The commute from the Ferry can be 20 - 30 minutes or more just to get from the Ferry terminal to Forest & Broadway if the buses are screwed up, so I wouldn't advocate for them being spaced apart and making an already long commute longer unless they add bidirectional limited stop service, which they certainly should have some modified version of.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

A few questions for you... SINorth & I agree that bus service is lacking on Staten Island overall, although it has improved from years back. Checkmate on the other hand thinks that bus service is fine on Staten Island. I would like to hear your opinion about bus service overall on the island since you are the oldest out of the four of us to get your perspective. I am aware that you use the S40 to get to the movies, but do you use any other buses aside from that?

[checkmatechamp13]

I agree w/SI North. I hate to say it, but like I said before they're not thinking about anyone outside of Ferry terminal. This is why I've argued for bidirectional limited stop service because in this instance it would benefit your commute, even though you've argued that the money isn't there for bidirectional limited stop service, not even a modified one. If they spread out the limited stop buses, people coming from the Ferry would be annoyed about having to wait (even 7 minutes) and since the service is geared for Ferry riders, they'd more than likely get their way, especially with them axing the X16. You could also have an instance of even further crowding on one bus because of the spacing.

 

The commute from the Ferry can be 20 - 30 minutes or more just to get from the Ferry terminal to Forest & Broadway if the buses are screwed up, so I wouldn't advocate for them being spaced apart and making an already long commute longer unless they add bidirectional limited stop service, which they certainly should have some modified version of.

 

But wouldn't putting it on the S96 be enough to attract some riders to Castleton Avenue, rather than Forest Avenue?

 

But I still don't get what a bidirectional limited has to do with spreading buses out. What do riders going to St. George have to do with riders coming from St. George?

 

The only way the MTA can afford to run bi-directional limited-stop service would be if they used buses deadheading to St. George as local S48s (starting from Richmond Avenue) and buses starting from Arlington as S98s.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

But wouldn't putting it on the S96 be enough to attract some riders to Castleton Avenue, rather than Forest Avenue?

 

But I still don't get what a bidirectional limited has to do with spreading buses out. What do riders going to St. George have to do with riders coming from St. George?

 

The only way the MTA can afford to run bi-directional limited-stop service would be if they used buses deadheading to St. George as local S48s (starting from Richmond Avenue) and buses starting from Arlington as S98s.

 

It wouldn't be such a big deal to spread out buses since you'd have more limiteds running so those not taking the ferry would benefit from it and those taking the ferry in the non-peak direction would benefit as well. Currently the limited stop buses are basically set up to meet w/the Ferry schedule and only in peak directions. Having bidirectional limited stop service would finally help to improve service within Staten Island, which is still rather dismal. I can get to some places faster walking than waiting for the local bus and we're talking a good 20 minute walk in some cases. As it is now, if you're not going to the Ferry or to Brooklyn or another hot spot, you generally can expect a rather long commute on Staten Island. Limited stop service would especially helpful on the S48 because of the traffic and tight headways. It would give folks a little peace of mind having to stress less about catching the boat on time.

 

Some in sum until that is done, don't expect buses to be spread out because those buses are needed for the Ferry loads despite what you see when you get on at Forest & Broadway.

[MikeGerald]

A few questions for you... SINorth & I agree that bus service is lacking on Staten Island overall, although it has improved from years back. Checkmate on the other hand thinks that bus service is fine on Staten Island. I would like to hear your opinion about bus service overall on the island since you are the oldest out of the four of us to get your perspective. I am aware that you use the S40 to get to the movies, but do you use any other buses aside from that?

 

I have lived on Staten Island since just before 1991, and until recently my work activities were in Manhattan and Brooklyn. Therefore my most important bus trips were to and from the ferry, and secondly about the island. My current activities are often limited to the island. Most of the time on workdays, my personal basic concern was meeting the ferry - and the plenty of multiple times that using the buses made that difficult. There were plenty of times when the buses would make the boats, there were plenty of times when buses were SCHEDULED to MISS the boat, there were plenty of times when scheduled buses did not show up - leading one just start walking to the ferry. My basic statement became, "You may not catch the boat that you wanted, but you can always catch the next one!"

 

On the weekends, there were trips about the island. It may seem silly to talk about a direct bus trip to the movies from my home as a good thing - but it was only until a few years ago that movie trips on Staten Island involved going all of way out to Travis and Victory. For me that meant a trip on the #44 to meet the #62 bus (easily 45 to 60 minutes), or if leaving the movies late enough a trip on the #62 to the Ferry and a walk home. The other movie theater was to travel to Hylan Blvd on the #78 bus - nothing less than an hour's ride, and a walk home from the ferry. I have honestly never been to the "other Atrium theater" on Staten Island. Traveling to Battery Park City, Union Square or other movie theaters in Manhattan or Battery means dealing with a ferry ride. When my nieces and nephews were younger, trips to the movies and Snug Harbor were expected events. Now on the #40 bus - its a direct trip that is speedy on the weekends - orders of magnitude of much less hassle then before.

 

The second bus that is important to me is the #44 for trips to/from the Staten Island Mall - again a direct trip to/from home. It can not be overstated the joy of having a simple trip home after shopping, just get on the bus with your purchases and relax. The #78 from the ferry to Hylan Blvd and its mall for me again useful, or the #48 for shopping along Forest Avenue.

 

One problem with living closer to the ferry terminal is that the limited stop buses do not stop at my stop, while the local buses can be filled to the brim and might not stop. I have never taken an express bus, because there are none available - being so close to the ferry terminal. It is no fun waiting at the bus stop for 20 to 30 minutes for a bus, and it rolls right past your bus stop, especially when its supposed to stop there. The electronic signs that say, "Next Bus Please" are just no help when there isn't another bus right behind it. Just start walking to the terminal - there's enough time to catch the next ferry, no - not the one you wanted, but the next one.

 

One part of this issue, is that folks who do not live on Staten Island just do not understand the multiple ways that transit users on Staten Island are penalized for living on Staten Island. They're surprised to learn that the ferries run at 30 and 60 minutes apart, and for about 35 years the weekend morning ferries were an hour apart. Just such a schedule makes it difficult to have a job that is off the island. There is only so much "understanding" that bosses will allow before a person can or will be fired. Spending 90 minutes to 2 hours just to get to work, and about the same to get hour - adds up. When I worked in Brooklyn on Saturdays, I could leave work and be on the subway at 7pm with my co-workers and know that I won't be home before 9:30pm, regularly.

 

For me, the headway or "minutes between the boats" simply signals just how late you're going to be for work, when the ferry is missed or canceled. Missing the ferry is really not that difficult a task, just miss a bus, have a bus canceled, or a bus that does not stop at your stop, etc. In the afternoons, it is easy at the my bus stop to count anywhere from 8 to 12 to 15 "Not In Service" buses to pass by at high speed before one crowded bus shows up.

 

The biggest basic compliant with the buses and ferries - is the schedule, the frequency of service, where basic service is provided at 20, 30 and 60 minutes apart. There are not many champions for bus service on the island, since many folks drive, and do not have to deal with problems on the buses. The problems of the buses also keep many people driving and in the their cars, and push folks to get cars. Some days, using the buses - everything works well - connections are made, there's very little hassle, etc., and other days - stuff happens - stuff just happens.

 

Mike

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I have lived on Staten Island since just before 1991, and until recently my work activities were in Manhattan and Brooklyn. Therefore my most important bus trips were to and from the ferry, and secondly about the island. My current activities are often limited to the island. Most of the time on workdays, my personal basic concern was meeting the ferry - and the plenty of multiple times that using the buses made that difficult. There were plenty of times when the buses would make the boats, there were plenty of times when buses were SCHEDULED to MISS the boat, there were plenty of times when scheduled buses did not show up - leading one just start walking to the ferry. My basic statement became, "You may not catch the boat that you wanted, but you can always catch the next one!"

 

On the weekends, there were trips about the island. It may seem silly to talk about a direct bus trip to the movies from my home as a good thing - but it was only until a few years ago that movie trips on Staten Island involved going all of way out to Travis and Victory. For me that meant a trip on the #44 to meet the #62 bus (easily 45 to 60 minutes), or if leaving the movies late enough a trip on the #62 to the Ferry and a walk home. The other movie theater was to travel to Hylan Blvd on the #78 bus - nothing less than an hour's ride, and a walk home from the ferry. I have honestly never been to the "other Atrium theater" on Staten Island. Traveling to Battery Park City, Union Square or other movie theaters in Manhattan or Battery means dealing with a ferry ride. When my nieces and nephews were younger, trips to the movies and Snug Harbor were expected events. Now on the #40 bus - its a direct trip that is speedy on the weekends - orders of magnitude of much less hassle then before.

 

The second bus that is important to me is the #44 for trips to/from the Staten Island Mall - again a direct trip to/from home. It can not be overstated the joy of having a simple trip home after shopping, just get on the bus with your purchases and relax. The #78 from the ferry to Hylan Blvd and its mall for me again useful, or the #48 for shopping along Forest Avenue.

 

One problem with living closer to the ferry terminal is that the limited stop buses do not stop at my stop, while the local buses can be filled to the brim and might not stop. I have never taken an express bus, because there are none available - being so close to the ferry terminal. It is no fun waiting at the bus stop for 20 to 30 minutes for a bus, and it rolls right past your bus stop, especially when its supposed to stop there. The electronic signs that say, "Next Bus Please" are just no help when there isn't another bus right behind it. Just start walking to the terminal - there's enough time to catch the next ferry, no - not the one you wanted, but the next one.

 

One part of this issue, is that folks who do not live on Staten Island just do not understand the multiple ways that transit users on Staten Island are penalized for living on Staten Island. They're surprised to learn that the ferries run at 30 and 60 minutes apart, and for about 35 years the weekend morning ferries were an hour apart. Just such a schedule makes it difficult to have a job that is off the island. There is only so much "understanding" that bosses will allow before a person can or will be fired. Spending 90 minutes to 2 hours just to get to work, and about the same to get hour - adds up. When I worked in Brooklyn on Saturdays, I could leave work and be on the subway at 7pm with my co-workers and know that I won't be home before 9:30pm, regularly.

 

For me, the headway or "minutes between the boats" simply signals just how late you're going to be for work, when the ferry is missed or canceled. Missing the ferry is really not that difficult a task, just miss a bus, have a bus canceled, or a bus that does not stop at your stop, etc. In the afternoons, it is easy at the my bus stop to count anywhere from 8 to 12 to 15 "Not In Service" buses to pass by at high speed before one crowded bus shows up.

 

The biggest basic compliant with the buses and ferries - is the schedule, the frequency of service, where basic service is provided at 20, 30 and 60 minutes apart. There are not many champions for bus service on the island, since many folks drive, and do not have to deal with problems on the buses. The problems of the buses also keep many people driving and in the their cars, and push folks to get cars. Some days, using the buses - everything works well - connections are made, there's very little hassle, etc., and other days - stuff happens - stuff just happens.

 

Mike

 

I didn't mind it so much until I started working. Like you said it doesn't take much to be late and there are so many factors that can cause you to be late... Late bus, broken down ferry or subway problems, so any of the three and it's likely that your commute will be a good two hours or perhaps more.

 

This bus tracking thing should be interesting because at least it will allow people to plan a little bit. As it is now particularly with the local buses it's really a guessing game. The express buses are a bit more reliable in the morning unless they're doing an extra run or have problems at the depot.

[SIR North Shore]

But what does a bidirectional limited have to do with spreading buses out.

 

Because then they would have the S98 buses turnaround and head back to St. George in service instead of deadheading down Richmond Terraace and it wouldn't make sense to have two S98s back-to-back heading towards the ferry in the PM.

 

Also, I still think that while a light rail would be nice, I just don't see it being built. I would 100% rather them simply go with the bus plan because it would introduce the sorely needed S83 bus! Also, he busiest part of the S40 is covered by two routes that way and the S46/S96 would hopefully have more service for those in Mariner's Harbor who lost the S40.

 

But what's the deal with the S99 and X21? No one lives over there and of all new routes to make on Staten Island, they would make the S99? Who exactly asked for that route? Where's the route to NJT already?

[checkmatechamp13]

That's what I asked them. They told me that they hadn't really thought this through, but the point was to show that there would be expanded service on the North and West Shores (I was thinking the same thing-You can create an express route that only serves South Avenue, but you can't create anything that goes to Elizabeth and/or Newark?

 

The S99 actually has some logic behind it (it is slightly quicker to get to South Avenue when you are traveling via Forest Avenue, rather than via Castleton Avenue).

 

Plus, like I said, we can utilize the existing resources, so we can create "expanded service" without the price tag. The S40/S90 is simply split into 2 parts, the S83 is created out of the existing S53 service, and off-peak S96 service is created out of the existing service (and any savings resulting from the S40/S90 split can be reinvested into beefing the S96 service up a bit more).

 

But I'm still not understanding you with the bi-drectional limited-stop service. Via Garibaldi said that they have those back-to-back buses to help with crowding, not with timing of deadheads, so those buses going to St. George aren't going to make a difference in that regard.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

That's what I asked them. They told me that they hadn't really thought this through, but the point was to show that there would be expanded service on the North and West Shores (I was thinking the same thing-You can create an express route that only serves South Avenue, but you can't create anything that goes to Elizabeth and/or Newark?

 

The S99 actually has some logic behind it (it is slightly quicker to get to South Avenue when you are traveling via Forest Avenue, rather than via Castleton Avenue).

 

Plus, like I said, we can utilize the existing resources, so we can create "expanded service" without the price tag. The S40/S90 is simply split into 2 parts, the S83 is created out of the existing S53 service, and off-peak S96 service is created out of the existing service (and any savings resulting from the S40/S90 split can be reinvested into beefing the S96 service up a bit more).

 

But I'm still not understanding you with the bi-drectional limited-stop service. Via Garibaldi said that they have those back-to-back buses to help with crowding, not with timing of deadheads, so those buses going to St. George aren't going to make a difference in that regard.

 

Yeah if you notice, some runs on the (S98) in the morning are spread out by about 5 minutes or so, but even then they still wind up running together in twos. The main reasons are traffic, as well as the crowding. The first (S98) usually comes crowded and most people won't bother to wait for the other one so the other one gets bogged down and is practically crush loaded by the time it reaches Forest & Broadway and then eventually the second (S98) winds up catching up somewhere along the way because even though most folks are going to the Ferry, you do have folks going other places that need to get off.

[CenSin]

I understand... This is something the mods can perhaps fix by making them bigger. I'm referring to the S98 in the previous post...

Anti-alias the text. It could be redone from Illustrator or Inkscape.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Anti-alias the text. It could be redone from Illustrator or Inkscape.

 

Huh??? I don't want to anti-alias the text. The bus numbers just need to be made bigger when I put in the text, which I don't believe I have any control over.

[Santa Fe via Willow]

Yesterday, Monday 8-8-11's SI Advance, had a front page article relevant & related to this here thread, & what many of us here have talked, talk, & will talk more about in the future, an SI/NJ rail-link over the Bayonne Bridge:)

 

Any y'all see &/or read it?

[Roadcruiser1]

Sadly it might not happen.

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2011/08/staten_island_interested_in.html

[VWM]

i think the north shore, west shore, and HBLR are great ideas. especially north shore. the s40/s90 are packed before leaving st. george. same thing the other way. packed. it's a great idea in terms of service needs and connectability.

[checkmatechamp13]

There is another North Shore Rail meeting on Wednesday, September 21st in the P building of Snug Harbor. The meeting is at 18:30.

 

They sent me an email with an attachment, but I'm not sure how to post it up here. I think it's the same stuff that's on their site, though.

[checkmatechamp13]

The meeting is tonight, from 18:30 to 21:00 in the "P" building at Snug Harbor. I'm 99% sure I'll go.