Central Park West

[EE Broadway Local]

Why, with the exception of 81st Street-American Museum Of Natural History, are the stations between 125th Street and 59th Street-Columbus Circle not used heavily? There's Central Park, The American Museum Of Natural History and Hayden Planetarium and many residences. Is it the all local service -especially on weekends when only the C operates- or the nearness of Broadway - which offers both express and local service?

[NX Express]

Half of the coverage area is in a park. In addition, Broadway with its express is nearby.

[Gorgor]

Well the areas you described are mostly for tourists, and East side and 5th avenue are much more well known and impressive to them than Central Park West. Also, think about where the are coming from. Tourists aren't really going to be coming from 8th avenue, and if they're coming from 6th avenue then I don't think they'd take the . If they're at Rockefeller Plaza then they might just walk to Central Park, or if they're at 34th they'd take the to 59th and 5th.

 

I also think that if they are going to the West side, they'd use the , not only because of the express service, but because they stop right at Times Square.

[EE Broadway Local]

Thank you.

[4P3607]

Yes, I was wondering why 86 street or 96 street isnt an express station...

also why is there no 66 Street station?

 

Thats a long stretch between 72 Street & 59 Street...

meanwhile we have stations like 116 Street & 110 Street that are really close together.

[MikeGerald]

The blocks next to Central Park West are residential, except for the area around the Museum of Natural History and a few other museums. While these residents would provide a steady flow of riders during the weekdays to and from the subways for work, school or shopping trips, the weekends will be different. On weekends, many people have a range of different activities.

 

Central Park West as well as St. Nicholas and Eighth Avenue above the IND subway are simply not heavy business streets, they just are not. There's no shopping of any major kind on Central Park West, the shopping is located on the nearby avenues. The major stores are on Broadway, with some shopping on Amsterdam Avenue, and lesser amounts on Columbus Avenue.

 

(Yes, it is true that some folks use the subways/buses for other kinds of trips, for example sports, etc. However those kinds of trips are episodic, rather than routine.)

 

By placing the IRT subway under Broadway in 1904 - Broadway becomes the important street in the area. The subways are used for work, school, and shopping trips -- but also on the weekends - shopping trips. Broadway seems more lively because it is more lively, both as a transit pathway and as a shopping street. The movie theaters are on Broadway, as well as eating places, etc.

 

In the urban planning field, zoning - a very important concept - is established in the 1920's. Central Park West is zoned a residential street, just like many other residential and commercial streets throughout the city. Often the zoning of many streets was simply a reflection of what was already there, but the subsequent designations influence what would be built later on. Central Park West is zoned as a residential street, there are good views of the park, etc. Meaning that the residents and property owners have a vested interest in seeing that the zoning, and therefore the usage of the land remains stable - predictable. Central Park West is basically a residential street - it is not meant to be anything more than a residential street.

 

It is not the trains - whether one is local, or express, etc. That's thinking about the issue from the subway map too much. These stations don't seem to get "much action" because of what's above and what's not above the subway, not because it's a C-train stopping at the stations.

 

The planners for the IND subway in the late 1920's-30's took their ideas from the IRT and BMT systems among others, and tried to improve upon them. The IND subway in Manhattan was built to replace the IRT's Ninth Avenue elevated subway line - which had branches on Ninth Avenue, and on Sixth Avenue. Central Park West and Eighth Avenue were chosen because they offered a direct path both in uptown and downtown Manhattan, while still allowing access to Washington Heights and Brooklyn.

 

The planners of the IND subway noticed that riders often transferred to the express trains (on the IRT and BRT/BMT subways), crowding the express trains even when the express offered no time advantage or travel advantage. Often while "local" trains travel faster to the same places. Folks would hop on and hop off local trains to express trains, and back to local trains - when such actions slowed down the transit line, and offered no real travel advantage. One strong idea in Manhattan was to reduce the amount of transfers between the express and the local train, by having the local train make the same stops as the express downtown. Thus there would be no advantage in transferring to the express. Another idea was to reduce the chances of local riders being able to transfer to the express, by providing fewer express stations uptown. Another idea was that express trains would travel further distances - aiding riders who had to travel further distances. There is no travel advantage for an express station on Central Park West, and would contradict points raised above. Thus local riders stay local, while express riders take it because they NEED to.

 

Too many transit fans and plenty of riders seem to believe in the magic of the express train, where unless it is "express" then it is not useful. The planners of the IND subways had definite ideas about subway riders and how they were attempting to build a subway line. While not all of their ideas survived and remain useful today - that is another story. One of their ideas was to replace existing elevated lines with subway lines - sometimes this meant placing subway lines under marginal streets. Plus the planners shaped and molded and adapted the ideas used in Manhattan to Queens and Brooklyn. Time, new opportunities, a whole scheme for a Second IND system that was just way-too-thought over, changed finances, the depression, etc. plus some major incidents of over-building and over engineering, and some glaring instances of UNDER-BUILDING -- all shape what is called the IND subway as we know it today.

 

Central Park West is basically a residential street, it is not at the heart of the west side unlike Broadway, it is at the side. The IND subway opened under Central Park West and Eighth Avenue in the 1930's to replace the Ninth Avenue IRT elevated train line which had a branch down Ninth Avenue and a branch down Sixth Avenue. The central shopping street - Broadway - already had a functioning subway line, the IRT subway got there first, Broadway is the important street.

 

Mike

[EE Broadway Local]

I think the IND. skipped from 59th Street-Columbus Circle to 72d Street because the I.R.T. had a station at the intersection of West 66th Street, Broadway and Columbus Avenue. It's kind of like the way the I.R.T. runs from 168th Street to 181st Street and the IND. placed a station at West 175th Street and Fort Washington Avenue.

The thirteen block run is nice on either the or the (.

The I.R.T. pulls a bit away at 72d Street where Broadway crosses Amsterdam Avenue then runs mid block between Amsterdam and West End Avenues until West 106th Street. At Cathedral Parkway and West 116th Street, it is three blocks west. It also is two blocks east on Lenox Avenue.

[Grand Concourse]

No, 59-72nd is like that because in between those stations the track layouts changes where the express tracks are on the right side and the local tracks are stacked on the left side. Just check it up on the track map.

[Daniel The Cool]

And 125th Street is a busy station. As a daily Central Park West Rider I see that station usually crowded and all that.

[Vistausss]

And 125th Street is a busy station. As a daily Central Park West Rider I see that station usually crowded and all that.

 

Of course, everyone knows that 125th st is a busy station for both the subway and MNRR.

[Shortline Bus]

Of course, everyone knows that 125th st is a busy station for both the subway and MNRR.

 

 

Metro North is at least 5-6 blocks from the 125th/St. Nicholas ( station.

[Vistausss]

Doesn't change the fact that it serves the 125st corridor.

[TwoTimer]

125 (along with 81) wasn't in the discussion, it focused upon 72, 86, 96, 103, 110 and 116. Think of these stations and the street like regular residential local stops in the outerboros... like the from Sutter to New Lots (only better neighborhood) or almost the entire length of the where it runs by itself (save Metropolitan Av) or the north of Parkchester or the once the el runs on Jamaica Av, or any stretch of track that isnt in any commercial center except maybe for a handful of stores. Many of these locations I think do have small concession stands because of the lack of small biz commercial upstairs.

 

I think SAS will have similar flare (beyond the minions of railfans that will be all over that extension), its not a major large-scale commercial stretch either (small biz restaurants n what not), most of the biz is on Lex/3rd. It will draw some ridership away from the Lex lines, but not too much. The TA isn't really expecting an exodus, either until the is built in its entirety.

[Gorgor]

I think SAS will have similar flare (beyond the minions of railfans that will be all over that extension), its not a major large-scale commercial stretch either (small biz restaurants n what not), most of the biz is on Lex/3rd. It will draw some ridership away from the Lex lines, but not too much. The TA isn't really expecting an exodus, either until the is built in its entirety.

 

On the contrary, as a daily train rider I can tell you that even if only the is extended to 96th it will take a major load off of the . 77th and 68th are the two most used local stations, and I know plenty of people who have to walk or take the bus all the way from York or East End. The will also provide a direct connection to the (3)/(A) for access to the West Side and different parts of lower Manhattan. In the morning I'd say 90% of the riders waiting at the stations from 68th to 86th are people in suits and ties going to work, and I see about a third of them get out at 42nd and go to the shuttle.

[Ceya]

Central Park West is 8th ave, Mike G.

 

 

Just a little info.

 

 

The reason CPW (8th ave ) has the stops it does due to the fact that most people and important buildings were at these stops.

 

The Dakota @72st, Museum of Nat History@ 81st, etc

 

Broadway was an important road already that why the IRT went that route, Former Indian trail, was called Bloomingdale rd as well as Kings Bridge rd up in Washington Hts ( the bridge that cross Spuyten Duyvil creek was called Kings Bridge) 225th st and Bway near the top of Manhattan.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Spuyten.jpg

 

To fill some of the missing parts, street cars (trolleys) filled in.

 

S/F,

CEYA!

[TwoTimer]

On the contrary, as a daily train rider I can tell you that even if only the is extended to 96th it will take a major load off of the . 77th and 68th are the two most used local stations, and I know plenty of people who have to walk or take the bus all the way from York or East End. The will also provide a direct connection to the (3)/(A) for access to the West Side and different parts of lower Manhattan. In the morning I'd say 90% of the riders waiting at the stations from 68th to 86th are people in suits and ties going to work, and I see about a third of them get out at 42nd and go to the shuttle.

 

Meant the Lex as a whole, end to end. Of course a big difference in the at stations where the would then be nearby. There's also the big transfer at 59 too that will be used somewhat less (at least Manhattan/Brooklyn bound). Should have been more specific. Was a c/r on the for years before I went over to the IND/BMT as a t/o.

[Vistausss]

Central Park West is 8th ave, Mike G.

 

 

Where did Mike say it isn't 8th Ave? Please explain.

[Ceya]

Where did Mike say it isn't 8th Ave? Please explain.

 

Example.

 

Central Park West as well as St. Nicholas and Eighth Avenue.

 

The IND subway opened under Central Park West and Eighth Avenue.

 

----------------------------------------------------------

This is NOT to bash MikeG, just a little information that some people may have not known.

 

Just like Ave A goes to 98 st. It is Ave A then goes throught Stuyvesant/Cooper town, then Asser Levey Place,then Beekman place then Sutton Place South, Sutton Place then York Ave to 98 st.

 

That was the route of the original Ave A. Buildings in the 70s still Ave A on them, like the old Public school near 77th.

 

 

S/F,

CEYA!

[MikeGerald]

As an urban planner with an extensive background with New York City history, transit history, when I listed Central Park West as well as St. Nicholas and Eighth Avenue, noted those streets as the pathway of the IND subway north of 14th Street, through midtown, the west-side, and upper west-side sections of Manhattan.

 

One there are several streets within the city (and in many other places) that have a physical pathway that looks like a continuous roadway, but the street names assigned to the roadway changes. Basically traveling from 14th Street north-bound, Eighth Avenue becomes Central Park West, and then becomes Frederick Douglass Blvd. Same physical pathway, three names assigned.

 

Two, Eighth Avenue extends from 14th Street to 59th Street-Columbus Circle, and then ended there until the 1970's. The roadway along the west side of Central Park was designated Central Park West with the building of Central Park, from 59th Street to 110th Street. At 110th Street this roadway resumed the name Eighth Avenue northbound until the Polo Grounds, and the FDR highway. In the 1970's, the entire section of Eighth Avenue north of 110th Street was renamed by the City Council to Frederick Douglass Blvd.

 

Three, for years, I worked with the Bromley and the Sanborn Blue maps of Harlem - so yes I do know my streets.

 

Four, the IND subway in Manhattan has a main path under Eighth Avenue and Central Park West, and Frederick Douglass Blvd, until 121st Street, where it veers off under St. Nicholas Avenue and then follows St. Nicholas Avenue. That is the curve that one feels as the A, B, C, and D trains enter and leave the 125th Street station. Just so you know, the IND "Eighth Avenue" station at 125th Street is not ON or UNDER Eighth Avenue, but under St. Nicholas Avenue. Why did the IND subway veer under St. Nicholas Avenue - simple - it was headed to Washington Heights. A continued pathway under Eighth Avenue could not and would not allow passage to or from Washington Heights, due to the nature of the Harlem Valley.

 

Just because a subway line is called the "Lexington Avenue subway" does not mean that it is ALWAYS under Lexington Avenue, for example. This is the same thing with the IND "Eighth Avenue" subway.

 

So does Central Park West equal Eighth Avenue? Nope. For decades the Sanborn Blue maps and Bromley maps have listed them as separate streets with separate house numbers. If you want a more modern understanding of the issue - go to Google Maps. Type in 82nd Street and Central Park West - you will get a distinct map with an intersection, and the map will have the words "Central Park West" on the roadway.

 

Type in 82nd Street and Eighth Avenue - and see what you get. You will not get a distinct intersection - because the logic of the streets as reflected in their assigned names shows that those two paths do not meet. The assigned name of the street changes as one passes over the physical road. So yes, one can talk of both roadways as if they are separate roads. Then there is the "world" where "we know what you mean" - even if one is no being "technical".

 

If you want an interesting example of this situation. Just what is the intersection location of the Transit Museum? What are the names of that very large roadway just steps away from the Transit Museum entrance? That roadway has more than one name.

 

The building of Central Park in the 1850's, spurred a great deal of speculation as to where the wealthy would live in Manhattan, some choose the eastside along Fifth Avenue, building many mansions there. Others choose the area called the "upper" westside with its access to parks both Central and Riverside. Of course the wealthy did not want to live alongside smelly noisy railroads - so roadways that buried or covered over their trackage, and used electricty even though passing through wealthy areas could be made beautiful. Along one such pathway, a whole series of parks were built to hide the rails below, and the avenue took on that name. Of course row houses and homes built for those with much lesser means often indicated that nearby an unfavorable condition existed - an elevated railroad, industrial usage, etc. The real estate speculation led investors to place buildings in parts of town that some thought was folly - who would travel so far? The building of the IRT subway in 1904 further enhanced the role that Broadway would play, along with subsequent real estate speculation. Along Broadway was built hotels, movie theaters, large apartments buildings, etc. Some felt that their speculative real estate efforts paid off - they "choose well", while others could tell a different story. The following years simply continued the pattern that was started.

 

Mike

[Gorgor]

Example.

 

Central Park West as well as St. Nicholas and Eighth Avenue.

 

The IND subway opened under Central Park West and Eighth Avenue.

 

----------------------------------------------------------

This is NOT to bash MikeG, just a little information that some people may have not known.

 

Just like Ave A goes to 98 st. It is Ave A then goes throught Stuyvesant/Cooper town, then Asser Levey Place,then Beekman place then Sutton Place South, Sutton Place then York Ave to 98 st.

 

That was the route of the original Ave A. Buildings in the 70s still Ave A on them, like the old Public school near 77th.

 

 

S/F,

CEYA!

 

You mean to 102nd street, and I believe that 102nd to 90th is considered the FDR Service Road. (Well actually since they pushed back the 96th street exit ramp from 99th to 100th, cars coming from 102nd and going downtown can't continue and are forced to go right on 100th, I guess you could say Avenue A really starts at 100th)

 

And also, to me and all of my friends, even the ones who live south of 59th on York Avenue, Sutton Place is just a fancy name for York Avenue that no one uses, even though it is the official street name.

[Vistausss]

As an urban planner with an extensive background with New York City history, transit history, when I listed Central Park West as well as St. Nicholas and Eighth Avenue, noted those streets as the pathway of the IND subway north of 14th Street, through midtown, the west-side, and upper west-side sections of Manhattan.

 

One there are several streets within the city (and in many other places) that have a physical pathway that looks like a continuous roadway, but the street names assigned to the roadway changes. Basically traveling from 14th Street north-bound, Eighth Avenue becomes Central Park West, and then becomes Frederick Douglass Blvd. Same physical pathway, three names assigned.

 

Two, Eighth Avenue extends from 14th Street to 59th Street-Columbus Circle, and then ended there until the 1970's. The roadway along the west side of Central Park was designated Central Park West with the building of Central Park, from 59th Street to 110th Street. At 110th Street this roadway resumed the name Eighth Avenue northbound until the Polo Grounds, and the FDR highway. In the 1970's, the entire section of Eighth Avenue north of 110th Street was renamed by the City Council to Frederick Douglass Blvd.

 

Three, for years, I worked with the Bromley and the Sanborn Blue maps of Harlem - so yes I do know my streets.

 

Four, the IND subway in Manhattan has a main path under Eighth Avenue and Central Park West, and Frederick Douglass Blvd, until 121st Street, where it veers off under St. Nicholas Avenue and then follows St. Nicholas Avenue. That is the curve that one feels as the A, B, C, and D trains enter and leave the 125th Street station. Just so you know, the IND "Eighth Avenue" station at 125th Street is not ON or UNDER Eighth Avenue, but under St. Nicholas Avenue. Why did the IND subway veer under St. Nicholas Avenue - simple - it was headed to Washington Heights. A continued pathway under Eighth Avenue could not and would not allow passage to or from Washington Heights, due to the nature of the Harlem Valley.

 

Just because a subway line is called the "Lexington Avenue subway" does not mean that it is ALWAYS under Lexington Avenue, for example. This is the same thing with the IND "Eighth Avenue" subway.

 

So does Central Park West equal Eighth Avenue? Nope. For decades the Sanborn Blue maps and Bromley maps have listed them as separate streets with separate house numbers. If you want a more modern understanding of the issue - go to Google Maps. Type in 82nd Street and Central Park West - you will get a distinct map with an intersection, and the map will have the words "Central Park West" on the roadway.

 

Type in 82nd Street and Eighth Avenue - and see what you get. You will not get a distinct intersection - because the logic of the streets as reflected in their assigned names shows that those two paths do not meet. The assigned name of the street changes as one passes over the physical road. So yes, one can talk of both roadways as if they are separate roads. Then there is the "world" where "we know what you mean" - even if one is no being "technical".

 

If you want an interesting example of this situation. Just what is the intersection location of the Transit Museum? What are the names of that very large roadway just steps away from the Transit Museum entrance? That roadway has more than one name.

 

The building of Central Park in the 1850's, spurred a great deal of speculation as to where the wealthy would live in Manhattan, some choose the eastside along Fifth Avenue, building many mansions there. Others choose the area called the "upper" westside with its access to parks both Central and Riverside. Of course the wealthy did not want to live alongside smelly noisy railroads - so roadways that buried or covered over their trackage, and used electricty even though passing through wealthy areas could be made beautiful. Along one such pathway, a whole series of parks were built to hide the rails below, and the avenue took on that name. Of course row houses and homes built for those with much lesser means often indicated that nearby an unfavorable condition existed - an elevated railroad, industrial usage, etc. The real estate speculation led investors to place buildings in parts of town that some thought was folly - who would travel so far? The building of the IRT subway in 1904 further enhanced the role that Broadway would play, along with subsequent real estate speculation. Along Broadway was built hotels, movie theaters, large apartments buildings, etc. Some felt that their speculative real estate efforts paid off - they "choose well", while others could tell a different story. The following years simply continued the pattern that was started.

 

Mike

 

Amen :tup:

[Ceya]

Ok, MikeG knows.

 

As I stated before was not a bash against you.

 

I'm not a city planner, I was just a city kid years ago who stayed at the Main Library (5th ave) and studied maps,pictures , talked to old folks who was around during different periods of the city to tell me what life was and what was where and was a history buff.

 

Maybe one day we can talk about the city i've been exploring over 30 yrs.

 

S/F,

CEYA!

[EE Broadway Local]

Until 1940, a short section of Eighth Avenue had two services.

You see, the Ninth Avenue El turned at Cathedral Parkway. It had a station at 110th Street and at 116th Street. The curve onto Eighth Avenue was called 'Suicide Curve' because of its' height.

The Ninth Avenue El then served Eighth Avenue with stations at 125th, 130th, 135th, 140th, 145th, 150th and 155th Streets while the IND. served Saint Nicholas Avenue, and the IRT served Broadway and Lenox Avenue. For a brief time, Upper Manhattan had four services.

[Grand Concourse]

125 (along with 81) wasn't in the discussion, it focused upon 72, 86, 96, 103, 110 and 116. Think of these stations and the street like regular residential local stops in the outerboros... like the from Sutter to New Lots (only better neighborhood) or almost the entire length of the where it runs by itself (save Metropolitan Av) or the north of Parkchester or the once the el runs on Jamaica Av, or any stretch of track that isnt in any commercial center except maybe for a handful of stores. Many of these locations I think do have small concession stands because of the lack of small biz commercial upstairs.

 

I think SAS will have similar flare (beyond the minions of railfans that will be all over that extension), its not a major large-scale commercial stretch either (small biz restaurants n what not), most of the biz is on Lex/3rd. It will draw some ridership away from the Lex lines, but not too much. The TA isn't really expecting an exodus, either until the is built in its entirety.

 

And assuming the UES people aren't 'snobs' [as in they refuse to take the 'dirty train'], folks on York-2nd Av would benefit from a shorter walk than to go up a steep hill b/w 2nd and 3rd Avs to get to Lexington Av. This could help crosstown lines like the M86 for those with an extra transfer and opting to use the bus than to walk all the way back.