Are the ADA laws helping or hurting the intercity industry?

[BZGuy]

It's a pretty simple question. Have the ADA laws helped the intercity bus industry or hurt it. My feeling is that they have actually hurt the industry in raising costs as far as the purchase and maintenance of new equipment and the cost of training and re-training personnel. I also think some of the rules they have are completely irrational.

 

-If the motorcoach does not have an accessible restroom,the operator must make a good-faith effort to accommodate a request for a rest stop on any trip over three hours.

 

This rule is basically saying that when you have a ADA passenger that you have to stop after three hours because there are NO motocoaches w/accessible restrooms. To use an example NY to Providence is scheduled at 3h45m...and I don't stop. None of us do because the short turn times either in NY or Providence. So what the ADA law is saying is "screw" the downline passengers because of one person. A reststop w/an ADA person is a good 25 minutes with the lift working correctly.

 

-Failure to provide accessible transportation can result in a fine of $300 – $700,payable to the ADA passenger not receiving the required service. This is a strict standard with no excuses, such as good-faith effort or equipment failure

 

Again this is making for no allowances for the fact that a motorcoach is a a piece of mechanical equipment...things like a bus breaks down now and then. Currently nobody's fleet is 100% W/C lift equip'd and that means it's a coin toss whether the replacement bus will have a lift. I ran into this problem this summer and the ADA passenger was very unreasonable about the whole situation.

 

-By October 2012, 100 per cent of the motorcoaches used to provide fixed-route service must be accessible

 

This is putting a tremendous cost burden on motorcoach companies all over the US. The cost of the W/C lift adds up to $40k to the cost of a new motorcoach. That's not including maintenance over the life of the coach and training of personnel. I'll use the my company as an example...we have 97/98 MCIs that will have to be retired because of this law. All these buses are in good shape and we could theoretically get another 5-7 yrs of service out of that fleet. However due to the ADA laws we have to retire perfectly good buses and waste money on a new fleet of W/C equip'd buses.

 

Maybe I'm the one being unreasonable, but this is just some of the stuff I've been reading trough and quite frankly, it's seems like a waste of money to push for 100% accessible equipment when the usage is so low.

 

Your thoughts and ideas?

[Shortline Bus]

This is a very good and excellent topic. Does this issue not belong in the regional transit area?

 

I won't discuss it in detail as I am not in the mass transit or intercity bus biz.

Unless you repeal the ADA law of 1990, the industry has to deal with it.

Do we need to go back to the Williowbrook scandal of the early 1970's which led to the creation of the ADA laws in the first place.

 

 

It's a pretty simple question. Have the ADA laws helped the intercity bus industry or hurt it. My feeling is that they have actually hurt the industry in raising costs as far as the purchase and maintenance of new equipment and the cost of training and re-training personnel. I also think some of the rules they have are completely irrational.

 

-If the motorcoach does not have an accessible restroom,the operator must make a good-faith effort to accommodate a request for a rest stop on any trip over three hours.

 

This rule is basically saying that when you have a ADA passenger that you have to stop after three hours because there are NO motocoaches w/accessible restrooms. To use an example NY to Providence is scheduled at 3h45m...and I don't stop. None of us do because the short turn times either in NY or Providence. So what the ADA law is saying is "screw" the downline passengers because of one person. A reststop w/an ADA person is a good 25 minutes with the lift working correctly.

 

-Failure to provide accessible transportation can result in a fine of $300 – $700,payable to the ADA passenger not receiving the required service. This is a strict standard with no excuses, such as good-faith effort or equipment failure

 

Again this is making for no allowances for the fact that a motorcoach is a a piece of mechanical equipment...things like a bus breaks down now and then. Currently nobody's fleet is 100% W/C lift equip'd and that means it's a coin toss whether the replacement bus will have a lift. I ran into this problem this summer and the ADA passenger was very unreasonable about the whole situation.

 

-By October 2012, 100 per cent of the motorcoaches used to provide fixed-route service must be accessible

 

This is putting a tremendous cost burden on motorcoach companies all over the US. The cost of the W/C lift adds up to $40k to the cost of a new motorcoach. That's not including maintenance over the life of the coach and training of personnel. I'll use the my company as an example...we have 97/98 MCIs that will have to be retired because of this law. All these buses are in good shape and we could theoretically get another 5-7 yrs of service out of that fleet. However due to the ADA laws we have to retire perfectly good buses and waste money on a new fleet of W/C equip'd buses.

 

Maybe I'm the one being unreasonable, but this is just some of the stuff I've been reading trough and quite frankly, it's seems like a waste of money to push for 100% accessible equipment when the usage is so low.

 

Your thoughts and ideas?

[Grand Concourse]

Personally I feel the transit systems [in general] are bending over backwards for the needs of like 5-10% of the ridership. For local buses, 1 w/c rider displaces 3 seated riders. And do they even pay for the ride? You would think they should be paying 3x the fare.

 

Related notes:

For the elevators- if there wasn't a need for them [plus some hardly works and stink of urine smells], you could use funds that went into elevators to help pay [a small percentage] for the reconstruction of another station.

 

Buses like the Fishbowls that were owned by NYBS were retired prematurely because they were not ADA compliant.

 

Before anyone calls me insensitive: I'm sorry they are in the position they are in requiring the need for the chair. However, I'm not politically correct and I feel that if someone is getting 'special treatment', then they should pay more for such service [basically a premium]. IMO.

[D.J.]

I never liked ADA... cause wheelchair passengers be getting on and off at the dumbest places...

 

Like someone would take their time to get on the bus, then get off 2 blocks later... when all the time it takes to load these people is the amount of time it takes to WALK 6 blocks!! I strongly dislike when they catch the bus and especially when the bus clearly wasn't built for them... like one day, a wheelchair person cursed out a SEPTA 10 trolley driver because the Kawasakis don't have wheelchair lifts

 

They make a trip that normally takes 5 minutes last up to 15 minutes.. then they get mad when the driver can't fit them on a crowded their bus

 

Of course, i can understand that it's not their fault they are in the wheelchair, but if they gonna keep treating people like that then they don't deserve all those rights... maybe they should just be treated like normal passengers like everyone else

[Grand Concourse]

Thank you ^, exactly. I think I had a similar incident years ago on an artic where a person in a w/c took the bus for about 1 limited stop: 79th to 86th or something like that. And then there was the long process of the b/o having to secure the person and then unsecuring. I can understand if it was from 59th-86th, but 7 blocks?

[INDman]

Watch out, I said the same thing about the ADA laws in a thread about the Fulton St Transit Center and how it was a waste of money to rebuilt stations to fit ADA requierment. I think someone on here said I was a Nazi or something like that. But I do agree with what your saying, just watch out for the people who can stand the opinions of others.

[DOB2RTO]

 

 

Some, it is their fault. I am talking about those who are truly too fat to walk. You know, those who legs give out like the earth gives out, after a tremendous rain storm. Their legs just land/mud slide from under them, cause the stress on their legs is just too much, just unbearable. You know those who cause smoke to come from the lifts, cause the 600lb limit, was exceeded 3 times over. You know, those who bend the ramps on the low floor lifts. They are at fault for their own wheelchair/Rascal dependability.........

[Kamen Rider]

Please, watch the Nazi Banksters Crimes Ripple Effect at http://jforjustice.co.uk/banksters

[SoSpectacular]

Some people take such things for granted. I've been on bus trips that involved having a wheelchair get on just to go two or three stops... Why bother?

 

I'm sure we break our backs for these people only to be taken advantage of it (and a reduced fare too!). Now we get buses that have less room for passengers because of all this!

[Grand Concourse]

Some people take such things for granted. I've been on bus trips that involved having a wheelchair get on just to go two or three stops... Why bother?

 

I'm sure we break our backs for these people only to be taken advantage of it (and a reduced fare too!). Now we get buses that have less room for passengers because of all this!

Yup, I can understand about the elderly and those with bad knees [the lfs are much easier to board than the hf buses]. But the tradeoff is obvious - people don't want to move to the back and the bus may as well be a 25' bus or such.

 

Some, it is their fault. I am talking about those who are truly too fat to walk. You know, those who legs give out like the earth gives out, after a tremendous rain storm. Their legs just land/mud slide from under them, cause the stress on their legs is just too much, just unbearable. You know those who cause smoke to come from the lifts, cause the 600lb limit, was exceeded 3 times over. You know, those who bend the ramps on the low floor lifts. They are at fault for their own wheelchair/Rascal dependability.........

Yup, totally agreed. Some use their disabilities as an excuse and demanding we 'normals' feel sympathy for them or they cry that we are 'insensitive'.

 

Watch out, I said the same thing about the ADA laws in a thread about the Fulton St Transit Center and how it was a waste of money to rebuilt stations to fit ADA requierment. I think someone on here said I was a Nazi or something like that. But I do agree with what your saying, just watch out for the people who can stand the opinions of others.

I know the feeling. I made similar comments in the past on other boards and was figuratively tarred and feathered for dare speaking out against the 'free passes'. they are too blind to see the obvious flaws in that law and how it is abused by the very people it was supposed to serve.

 

On it's face, ADA is a good thing; providing for those of us who have some sort of disabilty.

 

The problem is when you get down to it, from a law standpoint, ADA is one of the worst laws ever passed, practily unconsitutional. Some days I think it was written by three chimps and a gorrlia while fighting over a banana.

 

No consderation for anyone who now would need to lay down money out of thier own pockets. How many thousands of buses were obsolite before they even hit the road becuase of that law. How many millions of dollars has the MTA alone been forced to spend to comply.

 

I would much rather the money be spent on research into ways that these people would no longer be disabled. Reconnecting nerve cells and restoring musecle tissue. Artifical limbs that work just like the real thing.

 

Worst thing is it's given people with disabiltes a crutch in the figruative sense. I hate people who wave their crutches in my face, what ever it is. "You need to do this for me because I'm (insert gender, race, disabilty, age, reilgion, sexulaity or job title here)". not even a "please".

Totally agreed. On paper it was a noble idea, but the result is like a polished turd. Giving individual riders a free taxi ride to their destinations would probably be cheaper than the millions spent for hydrolic lifts/ramps on buses and elevators in the system [that don't work some of the time]. That's millions that could've been spent on more worthwhile projects.

[SoSpectacular]

Mhmm. I treat everyone like any other person, no special treatment. I will help anyone if they appear to have difficulty with a task but that's about it.

[DOB2RTO]

Mhmm. I treat everyone like any other person, no special treatment. I will help anyone if they appear to have difficulty with a task but that's about it.

 

That is my problem with the ADA law, and then they want to be treated fairly like everyone else. Being treated fairly is, no room on bus, you wait for next empty bus like anyone else. In a wheelchair, they have an advantage, as they are already seated, and most of them don't have to worry about their legs hurting from standing, as they are sitting, and some can't even feel their legs........

[Nova RTS 9147]

A simple solution to this would be an expansion of paratransit: Those who need it (those who are truly, permanently disabled and not just morbidly obese) pay a slight premium; which could be partially subsidized by their health insurance, to ride their buses on a regular basis. Keep the wheelchair bound buses but make everyone who crosses the fare box threshold pay, even if it's the reduced elderly fare. Therefor if someone is taking up travel time and seats, you're not subsidizing their ride.

 

Though not for nothing, if someone is disabled then they shouldn't be in the habit of constant travel. They're prone to further injury in the event anything happens.

 

As for intercity travel, its called calling a family member!

 

Some, it is their fault. I am talking about those who are truly too fat to walk. You know, those who legs give out like the earth gives out, after a tremendous rain storm. Their legs just land/mud slide from under them, cause the stress on their legs is just too much, just unbearable. You know those who cause smoke to come from the lifts, cause the 600lb limit, was exceeded 3 times over. You know, those who bend the ramps on the low floor lifts. They are at fault for their own wheelchair/Rascal dependability.........

 

Being a human pig doesn't make you disabled, and making these fat globs wheelchair bound just helps to appease their terrible habit

[SubwayGuy]

Yup. I was once on a bus that had absolutely no room for anyone...standee or otherwise.

 

A wheelchair wanted to board the bus and the lift did not work.

 

Obvious solution: "Sorry I'm full. Wait for the next bus."

 

What actually happened: "This bus is now out of service because the lift is broken. Now all of you have to exit this bus and get on the next one (which is already crowded) so that after you do so, you can sit and wait for 5 minutes for the wheelchair boarding process to take place"

 

It's created another entitlement in a country that already has too many of them.

[SubwayGuy]

Some, it is their fault. I am talking about those who are truly too fat to walk. You know, those who legs give out like the earth gives out, after a tremendous rain storm. Their legs just land/mud slide from under them, cause the stress on their legs is just too much, just unbearable. You know those who cause smoke to come from the lifts, cause the 600lb limit, was exceeded 3 times over. You know, those who bend the ramps on the low floor lifts. They are at fault for their own wheelchair/Rascal dependability.........

 

1000000000000% agreed. If it was up to me those people would have to call a forklift (and the operator better be union!) and pay whatever the going rate is.

[Grand Concourse]

Yup. I was once on a bus that had absolutely no room for anyone...standee or otherwise.

 

A wheelchair wanted to board the bus and the lift did not work.

 

Obvious solution: "Sorry I'm full. Wait for the next bus."

 

What actually happened: "This bus is now out of service because the lift is broken. Now all of you have to exit this bus and get on the next one (which is already crowded) so that after you do so, you can sit and wait for 5 minutes for the wheelchair boarding process to take place"

 

It's created another entitlement in a country that already has too many of them.

 

Few months ago a FB bus [9600] was OOS because the lift was stuck. Dunno how crowded the bus was or how long it was there [as I just walked to the stop and saw it there].

Point is, if not for that one w/c rider, the ppl on that bus wouldn't have to get off to get on another bus.

[Kamen Rider]

Please, watch the Nazi Banksters Crimes Ripple Effect at http://jforjustice.co.uk/banksters

[Grand Concourse]

To the lawyers and other 'advocacy rights groups': [a person in a wheelchair waiting a few more mintues].

Logical thinking people would pick the latter.