Improving the B44 Select Bus Service

[Nova RTS 9147]

There would at least be a demand in the northbound direction if there were a re-routed B49 limited replacing the B44 limited on NY Avenue. High demand on one part of the line can balance out low demand on another part and keep the line sustainable. For example from what I've seen the B44 is packed from Flushing Avenue to Church Avenue (maybe the Junction sometimes, though I haven't seen it), but everybody is seated on the rest of the route. Except when school is in session, then there can be standing loads until Avenue X.

 

The only problem with that is the B49LTD only runs between 6-9 am and only southbound. Plus outside of school hours, I'm not sure if B49 service warrants additional LTD service.

['89 Liberty MCI]

Would the implementation of this service (allowing for about 15 BPH) not be better than having 18 BPH on NY Avenue during the AM rush reduced to 6 BPH, which is the B44 SBS plan?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Garibaldi: It's not so much a question of the length of the route. It's also the necessity. The B39 paralleled the and . Ridership was low and cost per passenger (CPP) was high. The B51 paralleled the and . Ridership was low and CPP was high. In other words not completely necessary, except perhaps for the disabled. So find other ways to bring back such connections. Especially if the replacement connections can do more than just help the disabled. I never saw the B39 and B51 much but they were always empty when I did see them.

 

The B2 and B31 aren't just politically connected (some of that clout failed as they have cut the night bus on the B31 and weekend service on the B2), they also go to areas in which they are needed. The B2 goes to Kings Plaza and the trains and another commercial hub at Kings Highway station. The B31 goes to an area served by no other public transportation, and to Kings Highway station. Compared to these lines you have to ask yourself, what did the B39 do? What did the B51 do?

 

 

The (B51) I can understand because it was basically empty, but I don't know about the (B39). You can argue that it is just a shuttle, but there has to be some way to restore service over there.

 

The same needs to be done with the (B2) and (B31). It is usually the more suburban, well off areas that lose their service when we have little alternatives as it is. That is why I firmly support keeping the BM4 for Gerritsen Beach residents who have very limited transportation options as it is with the (B31) being lost overnight. You can make the argument that Southern Brooklyn is the (MTA)'s second step child after Staten Island. Look where most of the bus cuts (local and express) were made in Brooklyn...

 

Midwood, Gerritsen Beach, Bensonhurst, Bath Beach, Bay Ridge, Dyker Heights and Sheepshead Bay.

[B35 via Church]

That's exactly the point... Why would folks use the (B49) if they have the (B44), which not only has limited stops, but more frequent service? Now me, I admit I did avoid the (B44) and would opt for the more civil (B49) when I had to use it, but surely the commute was longer since it doesn't have LTD service. I think the would be wise in trying to find ways to make the (B49) more attractive to take the load off of the (B44). Sure there's frequent service, but there is also tons of bunching and the line can be very unreliable as well. The frequent service adds more traffic by way of more buses, so it isn't all great news for the (B44). Compared to Nostrand Ave, which the (B44) uses for most of the time, Ocean Ave is far more accomodating in terms of traffic and is less congested overall. I think the (B49) isn't used as much as the (B44) because of where it travels overall. In Mid and Southern Brooklyn where it goes, more folks will either drive or can walk to the lines, but I think the line has a lot of potential. At some point you have to wonder how many more (B44)s can they put on that line?

 

The only solution I see is artics and getting folks to use other lines like the (B49) and thus that would justify the service increase as well as limited stop service during the week at least. Weekends is another story, but if ridership justified it then it could be put in, but from what I see at least in Southern Brooklyn it isn't justified.

 

Also, I think it is a question of how the buses are spaced. Having LTD service could help the locals move along quicker. I see how they utilize the (M2) along Madison and it certainly helps the (M1) and (M3) tremendously.

So you're basically saying the B49 has the potential to gain enough ridership to warrant a LTD....

 

I'm saying, right this second, the route doesn't have the ridership to warrant LTD service.... The fact that the B44 has LTD service, has nothin to do with why I feel the B49 doesn't get (enough) riders to warrant a LTD of its own... it's an apples & oranges argument AFAIC.....

 

 

what can really be done to make the B49 a more attractive option?

From what I long have felt, nothing...

 

although BrooklynBus will tell you that it should be extended east, along Empire Blvd....

[Via Garibaldi 8]

So you're basically saying the B49 has the potential to gain enough ridership to warrant a LTD....

 

I'm saying, right this second, the route doesn't have the ridership to warrant LTD service.... The fact that the B44 has LTD service, has nothin to do with why I feel the B49 doesn't get (enough) riders to warrant a LTD of its own... it's an apples & oranges argument AFAIC.....

 

 

 

From what I long have felt, nothing...

 

although BrooklynBus will tell you that it should be extended east, along Empire Blvd....

 

Yes sir! lol I have to say you are quite crafty with your responses. I have never met anyone who writes slang as well and as colourful as you do. lol :cool:

[Nova RTS 9147]

From what I long have felt, nothing...

 

although BrooklynBus will tell you that it should be extended east, along Empire Blvd....

 

That would make it useless. West to Prospect Park I slightly understand, east to wherever.......no.

 

Would the implementation of this service (allowing for about 15 BPH) not be better than having 18 BPH on NY Avenue during the AM rush reduced to 6 BPH, which is the B44 SBS plan?

 

I'm disinclined to say either yes or no for the simple fact that these two routes serve two different clienteles. Its hard to say if Norstrand Avenue folk will patronize the B49LTD, or even if it'll still be the same every ten minutes schedule (The plan can change between now and then with community support) for the B44 Local.

[checkmatechamp13]

The (B51) I can understand because it was basically empty, but I don't know about the (B39). You can argue that it is just a shuttle, but there has to be some way to restore service over there.

 

The same needs to be done with the (B2) and (B31). It is usually the more suburban, well off areas that lose their service when we have little alternatives as it is. That is why I firmly support keeping the BM4 for Gerritsen Beach residents who have very limited transportation options as it is with the (B31) being lost overnight. You can make the argument that Southern Brooklyn is the (MTA)'s second step child after Staten Island. Look where most of the bus cuts (local and express) were made in Brooklyn...

 

Midwood, Gerritsen Beach, Bensonhurst, Bath Beach, Bay Ridge, Dyker Heights and Sheepshead Bay.

 

What does the B31 being eliminated overnight have to do with the BM4, which never ran overnights?

 

And the MTA is only cutting service to suburban, well-off areas. It cut service all around. The B64 ended in Coney Island, and it was cut back, the B12 ended in Cypress Hills and it was cut back, the B13 ended in Williamsburg and it was cut back, the M1 ended in the East Village and it was cut back. You get the idea. Those areas were all urban and they lost their services.

 

If anything, well-off suburban areas came out better than the rest of the city as far as reductions (NOTE: I'm not talking about having service there in the first place because suburbs, by definition have low-ridership services, so the MTA wouldn't really want to implement more than coverage services unless the ridership warranted it), because there were services that couldn't be touched because of network coverage.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

What does the B31 being eliminated overnight have to do with the BM4, which never ran overnights?

 

It's a perfect example of the amount of service that Southern Brooklyn in general has lost. I think it's bullsh*t quite frankly. They cater to the poorer areas and we here in the upscale areas are the ones working and paying taxes and can't get adequate service in the more in our neighbourhoods. It was the same crap with the (S46). Giving the project folks LTD service along Castleton Ave later into the evening while better off working class areas of West Brighton had no LTD service during the same time period.

[checkmatechamp13]

Like I said, there was as much service eliminated to the poorer areas as the wealthier areas. Basically, if an area gets better service, it is because the people in the area use it more. Madison Avenue is one of the wealthiest areas of the city, and it has some of the most frequent buses running on it.

 

The S98 was expanded to run the same hours as the S96 (and there are more S98 buses running because of those back-to-back buses)

[B35 via Church]

B35: If they sent the B49 limited up New York Avenue it would serve a new purpose once they take the B44 limited away, as many people are crying foul over the loss of the B44 limited, including yourself. I hope I am not being rude; I am just stating facts.

 

As for the service span being increased on the B49 limited in general, this can be accounted for by the fact that ridership will increase once they make the B44 SBS, so ridership could increase on other routes that connect to it like the B49. Additionally the authority would save money by cutting local B49 service and adding limited B49 service. This limited-stop service could also increase ridership somewhat. It's harsh to those who live far from the limited stops or cannot walk to the stops, but it helps people at heavier stops. If it didn't, then the heavy stops would cease to be heavy stops upon implementation of a limited stop service.

 

And if it's an overall improvement in the service and saves time, there is nothing wrong with forcing people to get off the locals and use the limited. I do it and any other able-bodied person can do it. Right now they run the local B49 every 7-8 minutes in the AM rush. They could cut the local B49 to every 12 minutes (I don't advocate being so cutthroat, but I would even do 15 if I had to) and have the B49 limited running every 5 minutes. Follow a similar service pattern during the midday and PM rush as well when it matters the most and the current local headway is also about 7-8 minutes. On the weekend the B49 local only runs every 12-15 minutes so something else may have to be done, something that doesn't involve a limited B49. But only on the weekend.

 

This is a solution that would work because it would cover all the "victim" areas and lower operating costs. And more people would benefit than not. They would have to as the whole solution involves implementation of a faster service and has the faster service running more frequently than the slower one.......

 

It's not so much me cryin foul over the loss of the LTD... I'll still take locals coming from the junction, to Snyder....

 

They say the locals are supposed to remain on NY Av, and the SBS' are supposed to travel up Rogers... but who's to say in the future that they won't move ALL B44 service up Rogers....

 

If they sent the B49 up NY av, yeah it would serve a new purpose.... It would steal riders off the current B44 emanating from Av D & points along NY av, northward.... which leads credence to what I've been saying about the riders over here not wanting Rogers, but New York (av) instead....

 

Not quite sure if this is what you're sayin or not, but if the B49 were to be moved off its current (NB) corridor... and the B44 locals remaining on NY av... and the SBS's going up Rogers... you can't expect to believe that ridership will go up on all 3.... Something has to give...

 

and what would end up "giving", so to speak, are both facets of the B44....

Why...

 

- because the SBS portion of the B44 would travel along, where riders are generally not looking to go....

- because you would have B44 locals (and less of em, once they bring artics here) sharing the riderbase along NY av w/ the B49..... knowing the MTA's antics, no way do they keep the same amt of local service the B44 currently gets, and on top of that, bother opting to add B49 service (LTD or not) along NY av... on top of utilizing 60' buses....

 

The B49 would benefit the most out of all this, the way I see it....

 

 

...and nah, you're not being rude at all :cool:

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Like I said, there was as much service eliminated to the poorer areas as the wealthier areas. Basically, if an area gets better service, it is because the people in the area use it more. Madison Avenue is one of the wealthiest areas of the city, and it has some of the most frequent buses running on it.

 

The S98 was expanded to run the same hours as the S96 (and there are more S98 buses running because of those back-to-back buses)

 

Those (S98)s were used so I don't see the problem. The point they gave more (S96)s later for quite some time before they added those later (S98)s. The is quicker to yank express and local bus service for more affluent areas then they are from poorer ones. They must be on a guilt trip or something. I just think it's disgusting. I mean who do they think is going to pay the fare with them running more services to poorer areas??

['89 Liberty MCI]

What checkmatechamp said was correct. Suburbs are less densely populated and more people use cars. So the authority kinda lets them hang on by a thread. Like Riverdale in the Bronx. There was a time when the Bx20 ran 7 minutes apart in the AM rush and it ran every day except Sunday. The Bx10 also had more service. The Bx20 now runs rush hours only and they have cut service on the Bx10. Not that it was much better before. I once waited 75 minutes for a Bx10.

 

What's nice about Sheepshead Bay is that it's serviced by a bus route that traverses the whole borough and the same bus route is due for an upgrade soon due to its high ridership. Since this bus route services numerous denser areas it has to be well-supplied, regardless of whether everybody is seated south the Junction. The authority has no other choice. In Riverdale there is now way we will ever get limited stop service or SBS. No way, no how because Riverdale buses never had the ridership, people here drive, the route structures will not accommodate SBS, and the routes do not go through as many other areas that demand them as the B44 does.

 

And there is no way I will live in my neighborhood forever because I'm not an everyday driver and never will be. Funny how bad service disenchanted me with this area, even though it has always been considered 'desirable'....

 

Also Garibaldi they collect more fares when they send a bus through a poorer area and it carries 40,000 passengers a day, 30,000 of whom pay, as opposed to when they send a bus through a suburb and it carries 20,000 people a day, even if 100% of them pay.

 

Exhibit A: The B46 vs. the B4 or Bx10. The B46 has a lot more fare beaters but carries a lot more people and still manages to collects more fares than the B4 or Bx10. Hence the fact that they wouldn't dare to cut it in any way. Yet they cut up the B4 and Bx10 like some mafioso.

['89 Liberty MCI]

It's not so much me cryin foul over the loss of the LTD... I'll still take locals coming from the junction, to Snyder....

 

They say the locals are supposed to remain on NY Av, and the SBS' are supposed to travel up Rogers... but who's to say in the future that they won't move ALL B44 service up Rogers....

 

If they sent the B49 up NY av, yeah it would serve a new purpose.... It would steal riders off the current B44 emanating from Av D & points along NY av, northward.... which leads credence to what I've been saying about the riders over here not wanting Rogers, but New York (av) instead....

 

Not quite sure if this is what you're sayin or not, but if the B49 were to be moved off its current corridor... and the B44 locals remaining on NY av... and the SBS's going up Rogers... you can't expect to believe that ridership will go up on all 3.... Something has to give...

 

and what would end up "giving", so to speak, are both facets of the B44....

Why...

 

- because you're moving the SBS portion of the B44 to where riders are generally not looking to go....

- because you would have B44 locals (and less of em, once they bring artics here) sharing the riderbase along NY av w/ the B49..... no way do they keep the same amt of local service the B44 currently gets, and on top of that, bother opting to add B49 service (LTD or not) along NY av...

 

The B49 would benefit the most out of all this, the way I see it....

 

 

...and nah, you're not being rude at all :cool:

 

Sending the B44 up Rogers is no good for KCH. Understood. But nobody wants to take the B44 to the heavily used crosstown buses at Newkirk Av, Church Av, Clarkson Av, Empire Blvd, St. John's Place, and Fulton Street? What trip generator is on NY Avenue (aside from KCH), that cannot be found on Rogers, where you still get the same transfers to the same buses? They still have the and connection at Fulton and then after Fulton you're good because the route is the same as before. Rogers Avenue people get an improved B49 service out of this since it'll reach Fulton Street faster and will do even more.

 

I don't see how SBS buses in any corridor are going to remain empty for months if it's a faster service than what they currently have, or how they are going to get empty as time goes on. It's rapid transit and feels good to ride. At least to me it does. Can't say the same for any local or limited bus.

['89 Liberty MCI]

Under my proposal, ridership would increase on Rogers and Nostrand because the SBS gets people to crosstown buses faster than the B49 local N/B or B44 local/limited S/B. Also Nostrand isn't much of an issue since the southbound route will be the same. Ridership on NY Avenue would remain the same. Maybe fall slightly if someone used to take the B44 LTD from NY Avenue to points north of Fulton, now they might take a crosstown bus to Rogers for a B44 SBS. Or walk. Ridership on Bedford south of Fulton may remain the same or increase if people are attracted by the improved frequency and span of the B49 limited.

 

EDIT:

 

Under the authority's proposal (no additional service on NY Avenue or Bedford Avenue), ridership will still increase on Rogers and Nostrand because SBS gets people to crosstown buses faster on both avenues. Ridership on Bedford will remain the same. Ridership on NY Avenue might fall; what sucks here is that if those 18 BPH are packed going up NY Avenue during AM rush hours now, then the 6 BPH will leave people in the street. I don't see the authority getting away with that. I'm one for flexibility of commute, but using alternatives would create too much trouble in this case and NY Avenue should get much more than 6 BPH during AM rush hours.

 

EDIT 2:

 

Wouldn't it be nice for people to get that direct transfer (at Nostrand/Fulton) from Williamsburg to Bedford and Rogers now? My proposal would have SBS, keep service levels on NY Avenue similar to what they have now, and do even more. It's not like Rogers is some kind of dead zone where there are so few people that empty SBS buses will run there forever. Plus if SBS ran there merchants would be crazy not to build new stores over there. I know Rogers is not as busy as NY Avenue, but it's not 3rd Avenue by the Gowanus either.

['89 Liberty MCI]

It has been said that the B44 local will not get Artics because of the bad turn at Farragut Road & Nostrand Avenue. They might accomodate them by placing a "stop here on red signal" sign and line on the road but the streets are very narrow. And one of the reasons why the SBS is on Rogers. So Artics on the local are not a done deal.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

What checkmatechamp said was correct. Suburbs are less densely populated and more people use cars. So the authority kinda lets them hang on by a thread. Like Riverdale in the Bronx. There was a time when the Bx20 ran 7 minutes apart in the AM rush and it ran every day except Sunday. The Bx10 also had more service. The Bx20 now runs rush hours only and they have cut service on the Bx10. Not that it was much better before. I once waited 75 minutes for a Bx10.

 

What's nice about Sheepshead Bay is that it's serviced by a bus route that traverses the whole borough and the same bus route is due for an upgrade soon due to its high ridership. Since this bus route services numerous denser areas it has to be well-supplied, regardless of whether everybody is seated south the Junction. The authority has no other choice. In Riverdale there is now way we will ever get limited stop service or SBS. No way, no how because Riverdale buses never had the ridership, people here drive, the route structures will not accommodate SBS, and the routes do not go through as many other areas that demand them as the B44 does.

 

And there is no way I will live in my neighborhood forever because I'm not an everyday driver and never will be. Funny how bad service disenchanted me with this area, even though it has always been considered 'desirable'....

 

Also Garibaldi they collect more fares when they send a bus through a poorer area and it carries 40,000 passengers a day, 30,000 of whom pay, as opposed to when they send a bus through a suburb and it carries 20,000 people a day, even if 100% of them pay.

 

Exhibit A: The B46 vs. the B4 or Bx10. The B46 has a lot more fare beaters but carries a lot more people and still manages to collects more fares than the B4 or Bx10. Hence the fact that they wouldn't dare to cut it in any way. Yet they cut up the B4 and Bx10 like some mafioso.

 

You're "disenchanted" w/Riverdale, the same Riverdale with three express buses and MetroNorth?? Now that's funny... In any event, what your previous post did do is give my argument plausibility in noting how affluent areas like Riverdale had their service slashed heavily while the poorer areas get to keep most of theirs. You see you may argue that the poorer areas have higher ridership, but on the same token, it is the more affluent areas whose taxes go to support the in order to provide the service to begin with, so the notion that somehow the poorer areas are helping the so much with their budget is just preposterous.

['89 Liberty MCI]

I understand. That makes sense. By the way I wasn't going against you; I meant to feed your argument that they let affluent areas hang on by a thread. Also I didn't know that much about how the taxes are used. I had an idea but not a great one. So that's the way the cookie crumbles. See at least Sheepshead Bay is a middle-class neighborhood that pays these taxes that fund public transportation, but Sheepshead Bay gets it back by getting SBS. Riverdale gets nothing. Opponents of the B44 SBS will disagree that they're getting something, but this is my view and I'm sticking to it.

 

Also I haven't used any of the express buses or MNRR in years. Even when I did it was before the $5.50 fare and my parents would pay for me. When I was much younger. Nowadays I pay for more things by myself but also I don't put much pressure on my parents to pay for stuff that they feel they should cover. I'll ride the MNRR if I have to (but haven't had a reason to in years) and I'll buy my own ticket, but there is no way I will pay $5.50 for an express bus ride or ask my parents to pay for me now. I doubt I will use a MTA express bus again. I don't have to. Unless I move to SI, which isn't in the cards for me.

[Trainmaster5]

It's not so much me cryin foul over the loss of the LTD... I'll still take locals coming from the junction, to Snyder....

 

They say the locals are supposed to remain on NY Av, and the SBS' are supposed to travel up Rogers... but who's to say in the future that they won't move ALL B44 service up Rogers....

 

If they sent the B49 up NY av, yeah it would serve a new purpose.... It would steal riders off the current B44 emanating from Av D & points along NY av, northward.... which leads credence to what I've been saying about the riders over here not wanting Rogers, but New York (av) instead....

 

Not quite sure if this is what you're sayin or not, but if the B49 were to be moved off its current (NB) corridor... and the B44 locals remaining on NY av... and the SBS's going up Rogers... you can't expect to believe that ridership will go up on all 3.... Something has to give...

 

and what would end up "giving", so to speak, are both facets of the B44....

Why...

 

- because the SBS portion of the B44 would travel along, where riders are generally not looking to go....

- because you would have B44 locals (and less of em, once they bring artics here) sharing the riderbase along NY av w/ the B49..... knowing the MTA's antics, no way do they keep the same amt of local service the B44 currently gets, and on top of that, bother opting to add B49 service (LTD or not) along NY av... on top of utilizing 60' buses....

 

The B49 would benefit the most out of all this, the way I see it....

 

 

...and nah, you're not being rude at all :cool:

 

I think you're catching on to my earlier postings about this SBS charade. I still think the long range agenda is to eliminate the B49 route from Flatbush Avenue to Fulton St and substitute some form of B44 service on the route. We'll throw the people on New York Avenue a bone in the beginning, but after a few years of declining service and ridership we can pull the plug on this service, too. BTW we can screw the riders on the overnight B48s while we're at it. We've gotten away with truncating the route already so why not leave them stranded at Franklin and Fulton Streets in the midnight hours, so with NO S/B B49 service while we promote the Franklin Shuttle as an alternative at that time. This, my friends, is how the operations planning department thinks in (MTA)land. As someone pointed out earlier, it's only affecting the "hood", not working people. They're not in the business of giving the public any benefit(SBS) at no cost so something or somebody is going to get screwed.

[Q43LTD]

The B49 itself (meaning, no LTD's) will take the load off the B44 SBS when that gets diverted onto Rogers.....

 

hell, I don't think the 49 should've ever gotten a LTD to begin with.....

The overall daily ridership doesn't support it... similar situation to the Q36 LTD, but that's neither here, nor there....

The (Q36) and countless other routes, but that's for another topic

['89 Liberty MCI]

I think you're catching on to my earlier postings about this SBS charade. I still think the long range agenda is to eliminate the B49 route from Flatbush Avenue to Fulton St and substitute some form of B44 service on the route. We'll throw the people on New York Avenue a bone in the beginning, but after a few years of declining service and ridership we can pull the plug on this service, too. BTW we can screw the riders on the overnight B48s while we're at it. We've gotten away with truncating the route already so why not leave them stranded at Franklin and Fulton Streets in the midnight hours, so with NO S/B B49 service while we promote the Franklin Shuttle as an alternative at that time. This, my friends, is how the operations planning department thinks in (MTA)land. As someone pointed out earlier, it's only affecting the "hood", not working people. They're not in the business of giving the public any benefit(SBS) at no cost so something or somebody is going to get screwed.

 

Plenty of people in Flatbush and Crown Heights work, and Kings County Hospital is a big source of jobs......

 

I know we're on the subject of the authority's proposal. However if they implemented my proposal I'd like to say they wouldn't have much room to cut the B49 like that. But there's something else I don't follow about what you're saying. I don't see the Bx12 and M15 local being eliminated despite the SBS on those routes and the locals still carry a lot of people.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I understand. That makes sense. By the way I wasn't going against you; I meant to feed your argument that they let affluent areas hang on by a thread. Also I didn't know that much about how the taxes are used. I had an idea but not a great one. So that's the way the cookie crumbles. See at least Sheepshead Bay is a middle-class neighborhood that pays these taxes that fund public transportation, but Sheepshead Bay gets it back by getting SBS. Riverdale gets nothing. Opponents of the B44 SBS will disagree that they're getting something, but this is my view and I'm sticking to it.

 

Also I haven't used any of the express buses or MNRR in years. Even when I did it was before the $5.50 fare and my parents would pay for me. When I was much younger. Nowadays I pay for more things by myself but also I don't put much pressure on my parents to pay for stuff that they feel they should cover. I'll ride the MNRR if I have to (but haven't had a reason to in years) and I'll buy my own ticket, but there is no way I will pay $5.50 for an express bus ride or ask my parents to pay for me now. I doubt I will use a MTA express bus again. I don't have to. Unless I move to SI, which isn't in the cards for me.

 

This is why I will always defend express bus service and any other service for the middle class and upper middle class. People say "OH NO IT'S A WASTE", but it is us working folks whose tax dollars subsidize transit, so as far as I'm concerned, for what we pay in taxes to the state, the city, the , etc. providing express bus service and more service in general to the suburbs is the least they can do when they rob us to support welfare and other programs for the poor.

 

The fact is the MTA receives tremendous amounts of money from New York State taxpayers. Those taxpayers like myself aren't getting anything for free, but rather what is due to us for the taxes that we pay.

[Trainmaster5]

Plenty of people in Flatbush and Crown Heights work, and Kings County Hospital is a big source of jobs......

 

I know we're on the subject of the authority's proposal. However if they implemented my proposal I'd like to say they wouldn't have much room to cut the B49 like that. But there's something else I don't follow about what you're saying. I don't see the Bx12 and M15 local being eliminated despite the SBS on those routes and the locals still carry a lot of people.

 

I happen to agree with you about the working class and Flatbush, Crown Heights, and PROSPECT-LEFFERTS Gardens. I was actually focused on another posters' comments about a particular neighborhood (the hood) and how the Operations and Planning Dept would take them. I've been perusing the bus forums lately and with the SBS proposals, official and unofficial, and the problems at Manhattan Beach w/ the B49 out there I can just see them (O&P) appearing to appease both sides of the B44 and B49 complaints while screwing both in the long run. I know the regular Bx12s and M15s haven't been eliminated but, having grown up in the Brooklyn neighborhoods I've mentioned, I can see the management saying that buses running on Bedford, Rogers, Nostrand, and New York Avenues, from Foster to Fulton Streets, amounts to overkill and the easy target would be the B49. I'm actually old enough to remember when Rogers and Nostrand Avenues were 2-way streets in this area and it's my opinion that the B44 had more reliable service back then compared to today. My misgivings have more to do about the proposed frequency of the B44's local service N/B rather than SBS in principle. Carry on.

['89 Liberty MCI]

Agreed. I also take issue with the proposed frequency of the local B44.

 

Nothing wrong with calling it Prospect-Lefferts Gardens; I'm partially used to calling it Flatbush because it's just easier to say. to-MAY-to, to-MAH-to. =)

 

It's wishful thinking, but I still believe that these buses will still carry enough people to justify their service levels, regardless of how much the authority cries about 'excess'.

 

If the authority misbehaves in that respect, I'll go talk to a couple of people and get some damn results...

[B35 via Church]

Sending the B44 up Rogers is no good for KCH. Understood. But nobody wants to take the B44 to the heavily used crosstown buses at Newkirk Av, Church Av, Clarkson Av, Empire Blvd, St. John's Place, and Fulton Street? What trip generator is on NY Avenue (aside from KCH), that cannot be found on Rogers, where you still get the same transfers to the same buses? They still have the and connection at Fulton and then after Fulton you're good because the route is the same as before. Rogers Avenue people get an improved B49 service out of this since it'll reach Fulton Street faster and will do even more.

 

I don't see how SBS buses in any corridor are going to remain empty for months if it's a faster service than what they currently have, or how they are going to get empty as time goes on. It's rapid transit and feels good to ride. At least to me it does. Can't say the same for any local or limited bus.

 

Of course SBS B44's would get its riders... What I'm sayin is, it wouldn't be near as many, or as prevalent an amt. of riders like on the current B44 LTD, that would embark on SBS B44's going down Rogers.... Buses won't be empty, not implying that.....

 

What major trip generator is on NY av outside Kings County, none....

But you're neglecting those that embark at/around the junction; What good does B49 LTD service panning up NY av do, for those coming from the junction? The area around Newkirk b/w Nostrand & say, Brooklyn av is dense enough (flatbush gardens)... that entire area will be skipped over by B44 SBS', b/c it'll be too busy straggling along a portion of flatbush av whose riders will all be lookin for B41's for the most part..... The people you see bombard the Foster/Flatbush stop aren't waiting for B49's; they're waiting for B8's....

 

There is virtually nothing you can do w/ the upper half of the B49 to make it more appealing; not adding LTD's, not adding artics, none of that... especially when you have the B44 to the east (that serves the junction, and the more residential areas of this part of Brooklyn), and the B41 along flatbush to the west (which also serves the junction, and "the" commercial sector in this general area here).... Regardless if the B41 or the B44 has LTD service.... people in this general area aren't looking to head to that part of south brooklyn (areas along Ocean av); unless we're talking about the KCC students - and these (and erasmus kids) are the riders that bombard that B49 LTD in the morning... yeah, kids from other schools too, but these are the main ones.....

 

# of New York av riders > # of Rogers av riders.... I don't mean that to be "better than".... I mean that to be, literally, more than....

New York av (and the area around it), is more residential (meaning, more riders emanating from their homes, as opposed to other buses).... there is nothing (in terms of bus service) east of NY av around here, up until you get to Utica... it isn't about what x-fers can be found on NY av, that aren't on Rogers.... By that remark, you're implying that people are only looking to take the (LTD) bus to x-fer to another bus....

 

Furthermore, there's a reason why Rogers av is the weakest stop of all the LTD stops along Church av... people aint lookin for the B49 like that.... the Bedford stop on the B35 is bombarded w/ E-Hall kids... You'd be hard pressed to see a crowd on the B49 waiting @ the church av (SB) stop.... I'm telling you, that's how it is over here....

You cannot get me to believe, havin lived in this area for almost 3 decades, that just b/c the MTA is gonna throw artics along Rogers av in the form of the B44, means that all of a sudden, riders are gonna start fallin from the sky (lol) & embark with open arms on this SBS service, in droves.... I don't see it happening...

 

....and if the MTA is fool enough to decrease service on the local routes (which I feel will end up happening in the longrun), you'll really hear it from riders out in these parts.....

 

I highly... highly doubt the MTA is opting to move buses along rogers in hopes for more riders....

they're moving buses along Rogers b/c it provides for a straighter path, on up to Williamsburg....

 

as for Fulton st.... well lemme tell you, south of Crown Heights, people aint lookin for the lines.... they either want the IRT, or the Brighton....

 

The MTA will come to find out all this soon enough.... Don't fix what isn't broken..... and I hope one of their "spies"/lurkers is reading this comment too !!

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Of course SBS B44's would get its riders... What I'm sayin is, it wouldn't be near as many, or as prevalent an amt. of riders like on the current B44 LTD, that would embark on SBS B44's going down Rogers.... Buses won't be empty, not implying that.....

 

What major trip generator is on NY av outside Kings County, none....

But you're neglecting those that embark at/around the junction; What good does B49 LTD service panning up NY av do, for those coming from the junction? The area around Newkirk b/w Nostrand & say, Brooklyn av is dense enough (flatbush gardens)... that entire area will be skipped over by B44 SBS', b/c it'll be too busy straggling along a portion of flatbush av whose riders will all be lookin for B41's for the most part..... The people you see bombard the Foster/Flatbush stop aren't waiting for B49's; they're waiting for B8's....

 

There is virtually nothing you can do w/ the upper half of the B49 to make it more appealing; not adding LTD's, not adding artics, none of that... especially when you have the B44 to the east (that serves the junction, and the more residential areas of this part of Brooklyn), and the B41 along flatbush to the west (which also serves the junction, and "the" commercial sector in this general area here).... Regardless if the B41 or the B44 has LTD service.... people in this general area aren't looking to head to that part of south brooklyn (areas along Ocean av); unless we're talking about the KCC students - and these (and erasmus kids) are the riders that bombard that B49 LTD in the morning... yeah, kids from other schools too, but these are the main ones.....

 

# of New York av riders > # of Rogers av riders.... I don't mean that to be "better than".... I mean that to be, literally, more than....

New York av (and the area around it), is more residential (meaning, more riders emanating from their homes, as opposed to other buses).... there is nothing (in terms of bus service) east of NY av around here, up until you get to Utica... it isn't about what x-fers can be found on NY av, that aren't on Rogers.... By that remark, you're implying that people are only looking to take the (LTD) bus to x-fer to another bus....

 

Furthermore, there's a reason why Rogers av is the weakest stop of all the LTD stops along Church av... people aint lookin for the B49 like that.... the Bedford stop on the B35 is bombarded w/ E-Hall kids... You'd be hard pressed to see a crowd on the B49 waiting @ the church av (SB) stop.... I'm telling you, that's how it is over here....

You cannot get me to believe, havin lived in this area for almost 3 decades, that just b/c the MTA is gonna throw artics along Rogers av in the form of the B44, means that all of a sudden, riders are gonna start fallin from the sky (lol) & embark with open arms on this SBS service, in droves.... I don't see it happening...

 

....and if the MTA is fool enough to decrease service on the local routes (which I feel will end up happening in the longrun), you'll really hear it from riders out in these parts.....

 

I highly... highly doubt the MTA is opting to move buses along rogers in hopes for more riders....

they're moving buses along Rogers b/c it provides for a straighter path, on up to Williamsburg....

 

as for Fulton st.... well lemme tell you, south of Crown Heights, people aint lookin for the lines.... they either want the IRT, or the Brighton....

 

The MTA will come to find out all this soon enough.... Don't fix what isn't broken..... and I hope one of their "spies"/lurkers is reading this comment too !!

 

If they are reading this, give us the damn (S83) already!! lol No seriously this is something I'm going to pitch that can be done at a minimal cost to my reps. I'm sending some e-mails out in a few minutes regarding a few things that need to be changed.