City to restore yellow bus service to 7th & 8th graders

[Via Garibaldi 8]

http://www.silive.com/news/index.ssf/2012/04/city_restores_yellow_bus_servi.html#incart_hbx

 

Take that checkmate.

[LRG]

So they dropped Laurie's name (IS 72) and I'm guessing the S44, S59 and S61 school runs from IS 72 will be gone?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I guess we'll find out come next year, but I don't get why they can't just let them ride now if the buses are half empty??

[Grand Concourse]

Yay! Less kids on the city buses.

[checkmatechamp13]

http://www.silive.co...html#incart_hbx

 

Take that checkmate.

 

 

Well, it probably didn't save them that much money considering the inefficient way they went about doing it. My brother said they used to have 32 buses think they went down to 18-20. If there's 1/3 the number of students, there should be 1/3 the number of buses (so about 10 or 11). Just so you know, he was affected by them forcing him onto the local bus, and he still supported it.

 

The thing is that, now that I think about it, they probably reuse those buses later in the day for the elementary school kids (I.S. 72's schedule is 07:15 - 13:30, so they can use those buses again for the elementary schools which are usually around 08:00 - 14:15 or so), so that might reduce the potential savings even further. I originally wanted all 3 grades to lose bus service (I mean, there's no point in giving bus service to 6th graders, but not 7th & 8th graders, even if service is reduced accordingly) Also, in some cases, the thing is that the destinations are concentrated enough that they have to run additional trippers. For instance, my brother said that there are a ton of people transferring from the S44/S59 trippers to the S48 (and I mean a lot. Like 80 people, and he's not the type to exaggerate). Really, they should run a bunch of trippers directly to Arlington (or at least have them run as S48s, and run nonstop between Draper Place and Forest Avenue), but how much cheaper is that than running school buses considering the fact that they reuse them? I mean, technically it's cheaper for the DOE, but they're just passing the cost onto the MTA (and I would really prefer that each agency take care of itself)

 

In any case, they should try to minimize the amount of empty school buses they have, regardless of whether it's just 6th graders, or all 3 grades riding it. If they do bring back the buses, I hope they reschedule them so that all buses have all of the seats filled.

 

So they dropped Laurie's name (IS 72) and I'm guessing the S44, S59 and S61 school runs from IS 72 will be gone?

 

 

Actually, they extended. The official name is actually "Police Officer Rocco Laurie Intermediate School". Crappy reporting as usual.

 

Yay! Less kids on the city buses.

 

 

It's not going to be in your neck of the woods, though.

[BZGuy]

In any case, they should try to minimize the amount of empty school buses they have, regardless of whether it's just 6th graders, or all 3 grades riding it. If they do bring back the buses, I hope they reschedule them so that all buses have all of the seats filled.

 

You are never gonna have a completely full school bus unless it's a "project" run where everybody gets off at one stop. If the schedulers are smart they have 2-3 buses covering one section of town so they spread the kids out and have the buses cover all the stops that are needed and still make their next school ontime. When I drove school bus I thought they were wasting money and fuel like this but after it was explained to me just how long the runs would be doing it the other way it made perfect sense.

[Grand Concourse]

 

It's not going to be in your neck of the woods, though.

 

I can still hope though.

[checkmatechamp13]

You are never gonna have a completely full school bus unless it's a "project" run where everybody gets off at one stop. If the schedulers are smart they have 2-3 buses covering one section of town so they spread the kids out and have the buses cover all the stops that are needed and still make their next school ontime. When I drove school bus I thought they were wasting money and fuel like this but after it was explained to me just how long the runs would be doing it the other way it made perfect sense.

 

 

That's what I'm referring to, though. There are a lot of kids living in the Mariners' Harbor Houses going to that school (though like I said, the S46 doesn't seem to have any severe crowding problems for some reason). For Arlington, the school buses always had a seated load at least (there were often standees), and as of now, the first S48 to pull into Forest Avenue/Richmond Avenue gets packed with students transferring from the S44/S59 (I think they actually send out a second bus to meet with the trippers). There are some Mitchell-Lama apartments on Holland Avenue, and the rest of the housing is fairly dense (a lot of rowhouses), so that fills up the bus.

 

And if they're not filled, then just combine a few runs and they will be full.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

That's what I'm referring to, though. There are a lot of kids living in the Mariners' Harbor Houses going to that school (though like I said, the S46 doesn't seem to have any severe crowding problems for some reason). For Arlington, the school buses always had a seated load at least (there were often standees), and as of now, the first S48 to pull into Forest Avenue/Richmond Avenue gets packed with students transferring from the S44/S59 (I think they actually send out a second bus to meet with the trippers). There are some Mitchell-Lama apartments on Holland Avenue, and the rest of the housing is fairly dense (a lot of rowhouses), so that fills up the bus.

 

And if they're not filled, then just combine a few runs and they will be full.

 

 

He's referring to the school buses and how they are run and you reply back to him talking about school trippers?? Am I missing something here??

[checkmatechamp13]

Yes you are.

 

He's saying that the bus can't be full unless it's a "project run". I'm saying there were some full buses and they did serve the projects. As proof of the situation, you can look at the crowding levels on the S48, which takes all the kids that used to take school buses (or you could look at data from before they kicked 7th & 8th graders off the school buses).

[B35 via Church]

How do they plan out the routes on school buses anyway.... always wondered about that.....

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Yes you are.

 

He's saying that the bus can't be full unless it's a "project run". I'm saying there were some full buses and they did serve the projects. As proof of the situation, you can look at the crowding levels on the S48, which takes all the kids that used to take school buses (or you could look at data from before they kicked 7th & 8th graders off the school buses).

 

 

Yeah, but when you say some buses are you referring to school buses or MTA buses?? You keep talking about buses and then you refer to the S48 and such.

[checkmatechamp13]

How do they plan out the routes on school buses anyway.... always wondered about that.....

 

 

What they probably do is have a map that puts a dot in every location where a student lives, and then they put the bus stops in areas that are closest to the most dots. Then they figure out how to route the buses so each bus has the right amount of people. Then, if in practice it turns out that some routes are being overcrowded and some are underutlized, they make adjustments accordingly (so they might add an extra stop to the underutlized route and have the overcrowded route skip the stop so it has room for kids at other stops)

 

Yeah, but when you say some buses are you referring to school buses or MTA buses?? You keep talking about buses and then you refer to the S48 and such.

 

 

Let me explain:

 

* Before, most students in Arlington/Mariners' Harbor took the school bus. There were a few here and there who took the local buses (I guess they didn't live near a school bus stop, or they had their personal reasons or whatever), but whatever.

 

* Most of those school buses were full because those areas are densely populated. They had some runs serving the Mariners' Harbor Houses, and then they made a couple of stops in the "residential" portion of Mariners' Harbor (I don't know what else to call it. I guess the areas not by the PJs), so with those stops, they were pretty full. I know there was a stop in Arlington that was so busy they had to have 2 routes serve it (I think it was South Avenue/Arlington Place)

 

* Now that they kicked 7th & 8th graders off the bus, those school buses probably aren't as full.

 

* However, the MTA buses received all those students who were kicked off the bus, and the S44/S59 trippers generally aren't severely overcrowded, but a ton of people get off at Forest Avenue for the S48, and my brother's only seen it a few times (he hasn't actually waited for an S48 to show up because he wasn't transferring, but he says the crowds are huge)

 

So in short, the school buses were well-used, and now that the students were kicked off, the S48 (an MTA bus) gets overcrowded for a small time period from that school.

[checkmatechamp13]

And in case that was too confusing, let me simplify it further.

 

A lot of the kid don't have any alternative (50% of households in Arlington have no car, so it's self-explanatory). So whatever service you give to them (whether it's local bus service or school buses) is going to be well-utilized.

[553 Bridgeton]

How do they plan out the routes on school buses anyway.... always wondered about that.....

 

 

They put all the students addresses in a computer and it picks the bus stop and routing; the transportation advisor will create the school bus route numbers and put the route number in the system along with all students names/address that was previously entered and the system will make the stops and routing.Its very accurate if done right.

 

 

If done manually a transportation advisor working for the school district will decide stops and routing on he/she own free will.

 

School bus companies are ran very closely to transit companies if a run starts to run under what was assigned they will cut that run and another bus nearby will pick up the slack.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

And in case that was too confusing, let me simplify it further.

 

A lot of the kid don't have any alternative (50% of households in Arlington have no car, so it's self-explanatory). So whatever service you give to them (whether it's local bus service or school buses) is going to be well-utilized.

 

 

Ok fine, but that doesn't disprove his point. You're using one isolated example and trying to use that to dispute his general statement about what generally happens. Seeing that he actually has driven school buses, I would think he would have some clue as to how things work.

[checkmatechamp13]

I'm not trying to disprove his point. He said that generally, the most efficient way is to have a run where everybody gets off at one stop (he called them "project runs", but they don't necessarily have to serve a housing project. As long as you have a lot of kids living within walking distance of that stop), and I was just pointing out that these routes do fall into that category.

 

I'm not saying all routes fall into that category (or else I would wholeheartedly support giving them back their bus service because it would actually be cheaper than school trippers), but I was explaining that these routes do indeed fall into that category.

[BZGuy]

Listen I don't want this to end up being some 15 page flame war.

 

Like I posted earlier....In my experience the school runs that tend to be pack are the runs that go to public housing. The only other time I've seen school routes packed to the gills is when one of the towns we serviced decided to save money by using 40ft school buses (seating 81 kids! ). They were able to cut down from 18 buses to 12 which saved them a ton of money. But the downside was that the runs were long as hell (45 mins to an hour) and the buses were always late in the afternoon if they didn't get out of the high school right at 2:15pm.

 

And @ B35: The way the runs were written at DATTCO were that the parents had to request transportation by a certain date. All the students needing transportation would be fed into a computer program and it would come up with the routes. Each town has a scheduler who goes over the routes to find any mistakes (which they never do! ) and then when the drivers pick their runs at the beginning of the school year they do "dry" runs to make sure that the run can be done in the allotted time and there are no other problems. Usually during the first 2-3 weeks of school there is more fine-tuning of the runs to match reality.

[BZGuy]

I'm not trying to disprove his point. He said that generally, the most efficient way is to have a run where everybody gets off at one stop (he called them "project runs", but they don't necessarily have to serve a housing project. As long as you have a lot of kids living within walking distance of that stop), and I was just pointing out that these routes do fall into that category.

 

Sometimes it not about walking distance. I'm not sure of SIs school bus guidelines but the towns that I drove in had some rural areas and it was the policy of the three towns that we serviced out of my yard that regardless of age, if there was no sidewalk that the kids stop had to be a "house" stop. Now most high & middle schoolers will jump out hear and there to walk with friends so it really was never enforced with them just the elementary kids.

 

The only reason why I say that is because I remember via G and somebody else saying how there are no sidewalks in quite a few places on SI and that might make a difference on how the school bus runs are written

[checkmatechamp13]

Listen I don't want this to end up being some 15 page flame war.

 

Like I posted earlier....In my experience the school runs that tend to be pack are the runs that go to public housing. The only other time I've seen school routes packed to the gills is when one of the towns we serviced decided to save money by using 40ft school buses (seating 81 kids! ). They were able to cut down from 18 buses to 12 which saved them a ton of money. But the downside was that the runs were long as hell (45 mins to an hour) and the buses were always late in the afternoon if they didn't get out of the high school right at 2:15pm.

 

And @ B35: The way the runs were written at DATTCO were that the parents had to request transportation by a certain date. All the students needing transportation would be fed into a computer program and it would come up with the routes. Each town has a scheduler who goes over the routes to find any mistakes (which they never do! ) and then when the drivers pick their runs at the beginning of the school year they do "dry" runs to make sure that the run can be done in the allotted time and there are no other problems. Usually during the first 2-3 weeks of school there is more fine-tuning of the runs to match reality.

 

 

Back when I was in middle school, I remember my bus served my stop, and then a stop a few blocks down that had a lot of townhouses. It was packed in the sense that everybody had to sit 3 kids to a seat and there were still standees all the way from the back to the front, and these weren't any type of public housing townhouses or anything like that. There was another bus that served those townhouses, but for one reason or another, my bus was more popular.

 

Eventually, some kids figured out that the other bus was less crowded, but the remaining students still resulted in overcrowding, but it wasn't as severe (they still had kids standing from the back to the front, but at least we didn't have to sit 3 to a seat). Later on, they finally found a bus that had a lot of spare capacity, and they sent it to my stop, so they were able to spread the crowds out better.

 

But in any case, if you gave those townhouses to one bus, I guarantee you that bus would be packed.

 

But in any case, I don't know the stops of those Mariners' Harbor/Arlington buses, but from what I recall they tried to make it so some a few of the buses would serve one part of a public housing complex (I don't know what you call a Mitchell-Lama, but anyway) and also serve the rest of the neighborhood. So you had one run for the Grandview Avenue side of the Mariners' Harbor Houses that would make another couple of stops, one for the Lockman Avenue side with a couple more stops, and then one for the Arlington Terrace Apartments (and then there were 2 buses that split South Avenue/Arlington Place because it's a fairly dense area, even if there aren't any apartment buildings there).

 

Sometimes it not about walking distance. I'm not sure of SIs school bus guidelines but the towns that I drove in had some rural areas and it was the policy of the three towns that we serviced out of my yard that regardless of age, if there was no sidewalk that the kids stop had to be a "house" stop. Now most high & middle schoolers will jump out hear and there to walk with friends so it really was never enforced with them just the elementary kids.

 

The only reason why I say that is because I remember via G and somebody else saying how there are no sidewalks in quite a few places on SI and that might make a difference on how the school bus runs are written

 

 

On the North Shore, sidewalks aren't an issue. There are some parts of the South Shore without sidewalks, but I don't think you're required to have a stop right at the house.

 

I mean, it's not a rural area, so you're not going to get a long stretch without a sidewalk, unless it's a really isolated area. For most of the areas, it's just the main streets that don't have a sidewalk, and maybe some of the residential streets, but I don't think it's unreasonable for a 12 or 13 year-old to walk in the street if it's a little side street with no traffic.

 

But in any case, if you have a stop where you have a bunch of homes clustered together, chances are there's a sidewalk there (I mean, if it's a condo complex or something, you just drop them off at the entrance).

[BZGuy]

I can't believe they allow standees on a school bus. That's a big no-no!

 

I can see elementary kids sitting 3 to a seat....maybe even middle school girls can get away with 3 to a seat but with us the rule was middle school and high school were 2 to a seat. Although we cheated when the late buses were heavy on detention days (Tues and Thurs! lol)...never EVER did I stand kids. That's just asking for problems.

 

The amount of buses serving public housing or a condo complex does depend on the density. Take for example we had a massive condo complex called The Lakes. For our high school runs 3 buses would serve West Lake,another bus would serve the "Highlands" which was actually apart of West Lake but this one "node" just had 40-50 kids alone and one bus would service East Lake. All the buses would still make a stop or two on the way to the high school but they mostly came outta there full. It was wild.....5 buses for one condo complex.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

On the North Shore, sidewalks aren't an issue. There are some parts of the South Shore without sidewalks, but I don't think you're required to have a stop right at the house.

 

I mean, it's not a rural area, so you're not going to get a long stretch without a sidewalk, unless it's a really isolated area. For most of the areas, it's just the main streets that don't have a sidewalk, and maybe some of the residential streets, but I don't think it's unreasonable for a 12 or 13 year-old to walk in the street if it's a little side street with no traffic.

 

But in any case, if you have a stop where you have a bunch of homes clustered together, chances are there's a sidewalk there (I mean, if it's a condo complex or something, you just drop them off at the entrance).

 

 

On the North Shore, sidewalks are indeed an issue. I moved here before you did I do remember areas on the North Shore where there weren't sidewalks, or the sidewalks were so narrow that only one person can walk on them, at one time, forcing some folks into the street, and the narrow sidewalks are indeed an issue. In addition to that, the other issue that you fail to mention is how reckless the drivers are here on Staten Island and how close cars are in relation to the distance from the sidewalk. The streets are very narrow in some areas and the drivers are careless and just race down the street. I remember last year walking to the express bus on Forest Avenue, and this middle aged white man was almost run over by a car right in front of me. He was walking briskly but the car made the turn onto Clove without signaling so fast that it almost ran him right over and it didn't help that he almost tripped and fell in the street falling over a pothole. He was extremely lucky to say the least. There's also the issue of how far things are on Staten Island, which includes the North Shore in that even though the North Shore is more dense and more built up, many parts are still more suburban (i.e. parts of West Brighton, Randall Manor, Grymes Hill, Sunnyside, Castleton Corners, Westerleigh etc.). Of course you have urban areas like St. George, Port Richmond, Graniteville and such, but I believe that the more suburban areas outweigh the urban areas overall. The further away you move from Forest Avenue, the more suburban Staten Island becomes.

 

With the "suburban-ness" comes the risk of kids being at danger. Quite frankly if I was a parent and was living on Staten Island, I would not want my kids walking to school because it just isn't safe. Even me at 6'4" and 210 pounds, I take precautions when walking, be it at night or during the day. I remember once I was walking to the X14 and this black guy comes driving in this car and he was literally following me. He circled around on some side street and then came around on Forest and passed me again by Forest & Manor. I was ready for him too just in case he tried to jump out of the car and drag me in or something. In sum, I'm not saying that the kids have to be babied, but to be honest there are some serious WEIRDOS on Staten Island and I say that in all honesty. Some folks are just creepy out here and with there being so few people around in some neighborhoods you have to take precautions even where I lived at where it was generally safe because that guy was not from the neighborhood, as I had never saw him before.

 

I can also remember having to be at a client's office early in the morning and having to be out and about on Forest early in the morning to catch the X30 and it is pitch black outside at that time and not a soul was out with very little lighting. I was walking my @ss off to the bus stop and looking like crazy for it come and get the hell on the bus. I can't imagine how a 7th or 8th grader would feel.

[checkmatechamp13]

But that's the thing: I thought most of the North Shore schools didn't have school bus service, or it was very limited. I don't think I.S.51 (behind that burger king by Forest Avenue/Willowbrook Road) has school bus service, and I.S.27 (West Brighton), I.S.61 (Castleton & Brighton Avenues), and I.S.49 (Stapleton) have very limited school bus service. I could be wrong, though (I do have a lot of friends who went to I.S.51 so I could ask them).

 

Arlington only has school bus service because it's zoned to school in Heartland Village. If it were zoned to the closest school, I think they'd just give them Student MetroCards.

 

Anyway, as far as being suburban vs. urban, on the North Shore, there isn't really a difference in how densely built and walkable most neighborhoods are. I could walk in Port Richmond and find the same housing styles as in Westerleigh and Castleton Corners (and I can use Google Streetview to prove it. LOL). For the most part, I'd say the North Shore is pretty walkable in terms of the roads having a reasonable sidewalk. Of course, there are some exceptions, like parts of Watchogue Road and Bard Avenue where the sidewalk is narrow, and then you have Grymes Hill (but then again, I'd think a lot of the kids would go to private school). For the areas that aren't walkable, that's why they give out variances.

 

As far as waiting for the bus, my brothers start school at 07:15, and my youngest one gets on the school bus, but the older one is waiting for a bus on Richmond Avenue at 06:50. His complaint is with the fact that the bus is crowded, but he's never complained about feeling unsafe. At 06:50, there's always somebody around, and even if it's dark, there's really nothing to worry about. The same way you can get grabbed off the corner waiting for a bus (and now that I think about it, you could get grabbed off waiting for a school bus as well) is the same way you could get grabbed off walking down any street if you're not careful. Just have your wits about you and be prepared to "fight or flee" and you'll be fine. I mean, these are 12 & 13 year-olds, not 6 year-olds.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

But that's the thing: I thought most of the North Shore schools didn't have school bus service, or it was very limited. I don't think I.S.51 (behind that burger king by Forest Avenue/Willowbrook Road) has school bus service, and I.S.27 (West Brighton), I.S.61 (Castleton & Brighton Avenues), and I.S.49 (Stapleton) have very limited school bus service. I could be wrong, though (I do have a lot of friends who went to I.S.51 so I could ask them).

 

Arlington only has school bus service because it's zoned to school in Heartland Village. If it were zoned to the closest school, I think they'd just give them Student MetroCards.

 

Anyway, as far as being suburban vs. urban, on the North Shore, there isn't really a difference in how densely built and walkable most neighborhoods are. I could walk in Port Richmond and find the same housing styles as in Westerleigh and Castleton Corners (and I can use Google Streetview to prove it. LOL). For the most part, I'd say the North Shore is pretty walkable in terms of the roads having a reasonable sidewalk. Of course, there are some exceptions, like parts of Watchogue Road and Bard Avenue where the sidewalk is narrow, and then you have Grymes Hill (but then again, I'd think a lot of the kids would go to private school). For the areas that aren't walkable, that's why they give out variances.

 

As far as waiting for the bus, my brothers start school at 07:15, and my youngest one gets on the school bus, but the older one is waiting for a bus on Richmond Avenue at 06:50. His complaint is with the fact that the bus is crowded, but he's never complained about feeling unsafe. At 06:50, there's always somebody around, and even if it's dark, there's really nothing to worry about. The same way you can get grabbed off the corner waiting for a bus (and now that I think about it, you could get grabbed off waiting for a school bus as well) is the same way you could get grabbed off walking down any street if you're not careful. Just have your wits about you and be prepared to "fight or flee" and you'll be fine. I mean, these are 12 & 13 year-olds, not 6 year-olds.

 

 

Oh please. You're comparing Richmond Avenue to other parts of the North Shore and I'm sorry, I disagree with you about most of the North Shore being walkable because that isn't true, hence why you don't see that many kids walking around except for in the more urban areas. If I was walking on Richmond Avenue, I would generally feel safe as well, but even parts of Richmond Avenue has very narrow sidewalks. The point is that even parts of the North Shore are far more suburban than other areas in the city and that's why whatever bus service is being restored is needed. It's a shame that a kid that had to be hit over there by South Avenue to get the service restored, which never should've been taken away to begin with. We should not be putting a price tag on kid's lives, esp. when the savings if any are so meager to begin with.

 

Then again I wouldn't expect anything but this from you. You are obsessed with costs as usual.

[checkmatechamp13]

Let me think: Do school buses drop you off at Checkers? Because that was where that girl was going. She could've had a private limo waiting for her to bring her home, and it wouldn't have done her any good because she wasn't going home.

 

As for the North Shore, I have plenty of stats to prove that the "nice" areas of the North Shore can be just as urban as the "bad" parts of the North Shore. You know what, I think I am going to bring out the Google StreetView images:

 

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&q=Dickie+Avenue+/+Leonard+Avenue,+New+York,+United+States&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wl (Westerleigh)

 

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&q=231+Byrne+Avenue,+New+York,+United+States&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wl (Willowbrook)

 

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&q=90+Labau+Avenue,+New+York,+United+States&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wl (Sunnyside)

 

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&q=78+Ronald+Avenue,+New+York,+United+States&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wl (Elm Park)

 

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&q=39+Gridley+Avenue,+New+York,+United+States&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wl (Mariners' Harbor)

 

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&q=100+Hooker+Place,+New+York,+United+States&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wl (Port Richmond)

 

I've been around Staten Island, so I know what I'm talking about when I say most areas on the North Shore have sidewalks. You can "Oh please" me all you want, but that's not going to change the facts.