Second Avenue Subway Discussion

[Concourse Express]

With the deep-bored tunnels already set, the only possibility for capacity increases on the SAS (IMHO) is a pair of tunnels bored under the existing tunnels. Should MTA build extensions to The Bronx and/or Brooklyn, we can then consider this possibility (assuming further extensions of the or aren't enough).

[AndrewJC]

In my opinion, it should be three tracks. Not for express service or anything, but for reroute possiblilities due to regular maintenance or the usual unplanned service changes. For instance, if a stalled train was stuck at 72 St/2 Av, the trains behind it would be able to run express until the next crossover instead of having to single-track for a section of the line. One only needs to look at the Canarsie line for an idea of how bad one problem can screw up a two-tracked line in a very busy area.

 

 

Second Avenue interlockings will be a lot more closely spaced than Canarsie interlockings. If a stalled train is stuck in the station at 72 St/2 Av, following trains can run around it on the opposing track, since there is an interlocking at either end of the station. Messy, yes, but it can be done.

 

The original plans included a third track at 72nd Street. It was dropped from the plans to reduce costs. A third track the entire length of the line is a luxury that would have killed the entire project.

[Grand Concourse]

But even a 3rd track at 72nd would've been ideal to serve as a short turn like Whitehall. It's not like having the 3rd track going all the way up 2nd av. Yes, you are probably right, the interlockings can allow for single tracking, but it's not very ideal imo.

[Far Rock Depot]

It can be under cbtc

[Quill Depot]

That is the benefit of newer lines, I think there will be space for tracks underneath. Take the Archer Avenue Line for example (Jamaica Center).

[kingal11234]

Remember that the is essentially a for Manhattan. They function in similar ways, so 3 tracks, while optimal for possible express service/possible delays, aren't really necessary. I do think the provisions should be made if they want to add them later (drilling portals under the local tracks).

 

No the T as planned is not a G train. The G train goes between 2 boroughs(Brooklyn,Queens). The T only goes to one Manhattan. The G train does not replicate any other line. The T runs parallel to the 4,5,6 lines. The G trains serve areas with no subway alternative, the T does not. Why would a rider wait 5-6 minutes rush hour or 10-12 minutes off peak when they can just wait for the 4,5,6 trains which either one will make it up to 125th St. The Second Ave Subway llne will fail unless it is extended itself to the Bx. However I do not support a link up with the Grand Concourse Line. That would just be redundant. It should just jo up 3rd ave or swing towards Throggs Neck or Classon's point. Or better yet rebuild a connection to the Dyre Ave Line

[T to Dyre Avenue]

You mean a " to Dyre Avenue"? I would be in favor of doing that over hooking the into the Concourse Line, mostly because it also offers more travel options to the eastern Bronx. Really, the Concourse line doesn't need two full-time services and they would have to boot the rush-hour off the Concourse Line to make room for the . Running up 3rd Avenue would be an excellent option too; it would replace the long-gone 3rd Avenue el service.

 

(It's why I choose that as my handle.)

Edited October 8, 2012 by T to Dyre Avenue

[Brighton Express]

You mean a " to Dyre Avenue"? I would be in favor of doing that over hooking the into the Concourse Line, mostly because it also offers more travel options to the eastern Bronx. Really, the Concourse line doesn't need two full-time services and they would have to boot the rush-hour off the Concourse Line to make room for the . Running up 3rd Avenue would be an excellent option too; it would replace the long-gone 3rd Avenue el service.

 

(It's why I choose that as my handle.)

 

Who knows, if the went up Concourse, we might just see the back at 168 St.

[Grand Concourse]

But that would mean the has to run local to cover the stations b/w 167th and 145th. I don't see that happening. The only reason to connect the to the Concourse line would be for access to the yard and to be a temporary run till the 3rd av segment is ready. Ideally they should have at least 3rd av and 149th for connections to the IRT lines.

[CenSin]

The T runs parallel to the 4,5,6 lines. The G trains serve areas with no subway alternative, the T does not. Why would a rider wait 5-6 minutes rush hour or 10-12 minutes off peak when they can just wait for the 4,5,6 trains which either one will make it up to 125th St.

The does run parallel to the , , and lines, but have you even walked the distance from Lexington Avenue to 2 Avenue? It's a long walk. People who are on 3 Avenue, 2 Avenue, 1 Avenue, and York Avenue might not want to walk an additional 5 to 10 minutes when waiting for a less frequent train on 2 Avenue would amount to the same wait. That is all assuming they are going to destinations both reachable by the Lexington and 2 Avenue lines. As of phase 1, it's only true between 63 Street and 96 Street. Upper East Side residents who want to access the west side of Midtown Manhattan will no doubt take the 2 Avenue as taking the will entail a long walk from the Lexington Avenue platform at Grand Central.

Edited October 8, 2012 by CenSin

[Grand Concourse]

Not to mention around the 90s there's a pretty steep climb from 2nd to 3rd av. Not fun having to deal with that on a daily basis for years.

[Wallyhorse]

You mean a " to Dyre Avenue"? I would be in favor of doing that over hooking the into the Concourse Line, mostly because it also offers more travel options to the eastern Bronx. Really, the Concourse line doesn't need two full-time services and they would have to boot the rush-hour off the Concourse Line to make room for the . Running up 3rd Avenue would be an excellent option too; it would replace the long-gone 3rd Avenue el service.

 

(It's why I choose that as my handle.)

 

 

And I definitely like the idea of rebuilding the old 3rd Avenue El, at least in The Bronx for the to run. Given the fact you are near the fault there, as previously noted I would actually build the last part of Phase 2 of the SAS as elevated (with a portal on 2nd Avenue around where the portion built in the 1970s ends) and having the end on an El at 125/Lex with provisions to go all the way across while the would have provisions to go over a newly built bridge to reach a new elevated portion in the Bronx, with such a bridge also having provisions to have a rebuilt Manhattan 3rd Avenue El also serve that at a later date.

[kingal11234]

You mean a " to Dyre Avenue"? I would be in favor of doing that over hooking the into the Concourse Line, mostly because it also offers more travel options to the eastern Bronx. Really, the Concourse line doesn't need two full-time services and they would have to boot the rush-hour off the Concourse Line to make room for the . Running up 3rd Avenue would be an excellent option too; it would replace the long-gone 3rd Avenue el service.

 

(It's why I choose that as my handle.)

 

I totally agree with you.The T train running to Dyre Ave is the best option for me. The only thing that I concerned about is how they would build it since the dummies at the MTA cut a connection to the Dyre Avenue Line in the 70"s

Who knows, if the went up Concourse, we might just see the back at 168 St.

 

The does run parallel to the , , and lines, but have you even walked the distance from Lexington Avenue to 2 Avenue? It's a long walk. People who are on 3 Avenue, 2 Avenue, 1 Avenue, and York Avenue might not want to walk an additional 5 to 10 minutes when waiting for a less frequent train on 2 Avenue would amount to the same wait. That is all assuming they are going to destinations both reachable by the Lexington and 2 Avenue lines. As of phase 1, it's only true between 63 Street and 96 Street. Upper East Side residents who want to access the west side of Midtown Manhattan will no doubt take the 2 Avenue as taking the will entail a long walk from the Lexington Avenue platform at Grand Central.

 

That may be true but that is only a small portion of people. Basing a line on only 4 blocks(north-South) crossing about 136(East-West) blocks isn't the greatest idea. And anyways Third ave is only block from either line, so why would they go on the Second avenue one? Plus you would have to assume that all riders who live on the blocks are trying to get between Hanover Square and 125th St. What if a rider wanted to get to Brooklyn,or the Bronx? This line would not be of much use to them. Suppose I needed to get to Staten Island. The Second Avenue Subway has no links to the Ferry so a rider would have make two transfers just to do this. Rather than doing all that most riders probably would rather just walk 4 blocks to the Lex Avenue line.

[Grand Concourse]

What does SI have to do with anything? They haven't even finished phase 1, let alone plan on starting phase 2.

That's what he will be for: 2nd av (north of 72nd) then transfer at 14th for the . Across the platform transfer as opposed to transferring at 59th or 14th st. So if you don't want to deal with the transfer, then stick with the overcrowded lexington av lines.

[Roadcruiser1]

Obviously after looking back at most of these posts and ideas since I have left for college and for other reasons I see things still haven't changed and the same people are flowing the same nonsense around here.

 

1) The can't afford to add a third track to the Second Avenue Subway. It has been mentioned a billion times that the already has problems itself with Phase 3 of the Second Avenue Subway since nothing has been built down there. If they have problems there what makes you think it's possible for a third track?

 

2) If we even get to Phase 4 the already did feasibility studies showing that none of Vanshnookenraggen's ideas will work, or any other of those options. Even though they look good on a darn map it won't happen since the studies say no.

 

3) Staten Island, Brooklyn, The Bronx? What year are we in? The is broke. That instantly kills it.

Edited October 9, 2012 by Roadcruiser1

[Far Rock Depot]

What makes me laugh right now is how heads are comparing headway between 2nd and Lex with the debate of walking to the Lex for faster headways. Let me put ya'll on to something. Headways don't mean anything if the trains are too crowded to board. And the whole "What if I need to go to SI factor"? Yeah. Like a one seat ride is guaranteed with every swipe. And why are we still talking about Bronx extensions?

[Quill Depot]

But even a 3rd track at 72nd would've been ideal to serve as a short turn like Whitehall. It's not like having the 3rd track going all the way up 2nd av. Yes, you are probably right, the interlockings can allow for single tracking, but it's not very ideal imo.

 

 

Makes sense, but not worth it.

[Grand Concourse]

:smh: ^

[Guest Lance]

@Quill Depot: Just out of curiosity, why do you think it wouldn't be worth the expense to add a third track? Obviously they aren't going to add one since the boring is pretty much done, but it would be more beneficial than not.

[Quill Depot]

@Quill Depot: Just out of curiosity, why do you think it wouldn't be worth the expense to add a third track? Obviously they aren't going to add one since the boring is pretty much done, but it would be more beneficial than not.

 

 

It'd be too much money, and the stretch is not too long, then you have to merge, which may make rush peak service useless.

Edited October 10, 2012 by Quill Depot

[Brighton Express]

It'd be too much money, and the stretch is not too long, then you have to merge, which may make rush peak service useless.

 

 

I think it would make more sense to spend more money now instead of suspending the during an incident.

[Threxx]

I think it would make more sense to spend more money now instead of suspending the during an incident.

 

 

Exactly. It would be better to spend a few million extra to bore an extra tunnel rather than inconveniencing millions who will be using the .

[Quill Depot]

Exactly. It would be better to spend a few million extra to bore an extra tunnel rather than inconveniencing millions who will be using the .

 

 

The will be the only line running on Phase 1.

[Threxx]

The will be the only line running on Phase 1.

 

 

This is about the future, and the same thing would apply to the .

[Quill Depot]

This is about the future, and the same thing would apply to the .

 

 

What about the crossovers before and after EVERY station.