CDTA Posted August 6, 2012 Author Share #226 Posted August 6, 2012 IMO, the local will just make things worse for everybody. The is already crowded by the time it gets to 125th, and then you get the riders from CPW, which would make it an even worse situation than the . Not to mention the , which will get all the riders who want express service from the , making the crowded too. Granted, the wouldn't be as crowded, but it's not worth it just to have an extra service that's going to be as crowded, if not more crowded than the originally was. And then yet again, you have the extra crowds on the . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Concourse Express Posted August 6, 2012 Share #227 Posted August 6, 2012 The D is not "so overcrowded" on weekends. Sorry. Your reasoning doesn't even make sense. The CPW line is the only line providing direct access to the IND within the areas it serves. And for those who don't need the IND, the IRT is farther away from CPW than it is from the Grand Concourse. While this was not in response to me, I must once again point out that the and serve entirely different markets in Manhattan, so the relative distance between CPW/West Side IRT vs. Concourse/Jerome El isn't really a factor. In terms of trips to/from Manhattan (except Broadway-Lafayette), the is not an adequate alternative to the ; while one could take the to the at 149 St as an alternate means, this combo is more time-consuming and cumbersome than the alone; the is even less frequent than the at a 12-min weekend headway. And all seats occupied? Plenty of people stand, either because they simply prefer to stand or because they don't want to put up a fight with the people hogging two or three seats. A seated load means that there are as many people in the car as there are seats. Whether they're all seated or not is irrelevant. On a car with 70 seats, 125% of a seated load means 87 people - it doesn't matter if 70 are sitting and 17 are standing, or if 17 are sitting and 70 are standing, or any other breakdown. Yes, with all seats occupied. However, it is true that some cats will prefer standing to the "dreaded" middle seats (or dirty/stained seats) on the R68s; however, as you said, an R68 car with 87+ cats inside is statistically crowded regardless of what the seated/standing ratio is - while I on occasion rode trains with a few unoccupied seats and standees, this number usually added to more than 87... The most crowded point on the C is between 72nd and 59th - if you're looking at 96th and 86th, you're not making a fair comparison. Anyway, I didn't get a chance to compare A/C/D loads myself today - it was way too hot to be hanging out on a subway platform and I wanted to get home before the rain. But I did get a call from a friend who lives in Harlem, near 125th, and is a grad student at NYU - he's been riding the IND to school nearly every day, including weekends, since September - so I took the opportunity to ask him about his commute. He told me that he usually takes whichever train comes first, except that during rush hours he sometimes waits for an express. As for weekend crowding entering 59th, he said that, except on game days, the D is consistently less crowded than the A or C, which are pretty close. Regarding the D, he said that it always has "plenty of seats for all who want to sit." When I revealed why I asked - that I thought it might make sense for the D to run local on weekends - the words out of his mouth were "no-brainer." He thought it was a very good idea, even though it would lessen his chances of catching an express to West 4th. Don't blame you - the humidity this weekend was unbearable! But I must ask - between 72 and 59? What about 81 St, the busiest cpw local station? Clearly your friend and I have different experiences on the average; however, about Yankee games: 1) Yes, 's are much more crowded when the Yankees are in town, but I've been on many crowded trains outside of game days (particularly N/B). 2) IIRC the baseball specials that run from 161 IND on weekends run via cpw local to 2 Ave... The 1 was already being cut to 8 minute headways most weekends for GO's - the 2010 cut only made it official for all weekends. Undo the cut and the 1 will still run every 8 minutes most weekends. The only way I can think of to improve headways on the 1 and 2 is to cancel 3 service entirely, but I can imagine that would be very challenging politically. Won't FASTRACK reduce the prevalence of weekend GOs though? And there's no justification for killing the weekend - the is overcrowded as it is. My NYU friend disagrees with you about the D, assuming you mean on weekends. (It's certainly crowded in rush hours.)...And, as you know, I disagree, because I don't think running the D local is a terrible hardship on current D riders - especially if my friend's observations that the C is more crowded than the D are accurate. And as you know, I disagree with your friend. Now this doesn't mean I've *never* been on an uncrowded through the cpw exp (it's happened), but from my experiences it generally is crowded. But of course, anecdotal evidence on either side isn't gonna get us too far, as I'm sure some cats will share my experiences and others those of your friend. I have an idea on how to estimate ridership trends by converting the weekend ridership figures into a relative frequency distribution and going from there, but I'm thinking such would be overkill even in this discussion (it would take a while to run the numbers). I wouldn't call it a service increase - it's just a change in stopping pattern. When 1/9 skip-stop was discontinued, there was no overall service increase, even though many stations saw more frequent service. It's a service improvement for some riders, but there's no actual increase. Increasing C service is a service increase. Running the D local is not. OK, call it a service improvement for cpw local riders. Don't see how this distinction changes the nature of our debate other than perhaps to make more clear the difference between the " local" idea and the "increase and/or service" ideas... Of course they're not unique, but there's an easy, inexpensive way here to cut wait times in half for many people who are traveling relatively short distances (96/CPW to Herald Square is 3.5 miles), where riders currently have to allocate more time for their wait than to ride the train itself. If there were a way of doing that on the Concourse line, I'd be suggesting it there too! I just don't understand why you consider 3 extra minutes on an air conditioned train to be such a great imposition while shrugging off the extra transfer that many CPW riders have to make, with its up-to-10-minute wait in a hot station. There actually is a way to reduce waits for Concourse riders - increase service (i.e. restore pre-2010 weekend service levels)! As for my defending the weekend express so vigorously, it's for a few reasons. One, travel times from most Concourse Line stations to Midtown are already long enough - and we currently have the same expected waits for trains as CPW local riders. As an example, the expected travel time (including the 5 min expected wait) from my home station (Fordham Rd) to 145 St is about 18 minutes; it's 30 mins to 59 St. This is roughly the same time it takes a rider from 135 St to reach Herald Sq (combined expected wait 10 min); though said rider is already in Midtown by the time a from Fordham touches Harlem. Second, based on ridership figures, there doesn't appear to be sufficient to justify this pattern even though it clearly is beneficial to cpw local riders. N.B.: Upon analyzing the and schedules, it appears the scheduled time savings (based on comparing running times from 145 to 59) on the CPW express is 3 minutes on weekdays, but 4 minutes on weekends. Just thought I'd point that out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RollOver Posted August 6, 2012 Share #228 Posted August 6, 2012 The whole point is that Central Park West local riders at 116th, 110th, 103rd, 96th, 86th, 81st, and 72nd Streets want DIRECT access to Midtown Manhattan or wherever else. It doesn't have to be 6th or 8th Avenues because they are both in Midtown and quite closer than far. BOTH the and as well as the and all go to Midtown Manhattan. If CPW local riders want to go to Rockefeller Center, take the B on weekdays or on weekends transfer from the C to the D at 59th Street Columbus Circle and even on weekdays if the C comes first. If you live along CPW Local stops and want service to the Bronx during AM/PM Weekday Rush or during middays, evenings, and weekends, take the B or take the C to 125th Street and transfered to the D. There's no need to make a big deal out of this. The C heading uptown after 59th will become more empty BEFORE it gets to 125th. The is crowded from Midtown to CPW Local due to museum/CPW goers. The service levels should stay the way it is and nothing more. CPW Local riders don't care about weather the B or C takes them to 6th or 8th Avenues. Think first about the neighborhood/area rather than the avenue/street that they are going to. They both go to Midtown Manhattan. The and the stations are closer until about after 23rd Street. Demanding of ridership on CPW Local that their destination is primarily Midtown Manhattan and not just 6th or 8th Avenues because they are located in the same hood. You want to reduce overcrowding on the during weekends? let it stay 100% R46s or take all remaining 50 R42s from East New York Yard to 207th Street Yard and have it consist of 150 out of the 222 R32s and 50 R42s (20 trainsets besides 18) during the off-summer months, having it come once every 8 or 10 minutes which ever you prefer. But that's just my opinion due to lower amount of R143s and not enough R160s for the BMT Eastern Division lines, they need some of the R160s from the for the sake of increasing service for its high ridership and heavy usage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q10 Airport Posted August 7, 2012 Share #229 Posted August 7, 2012 Unless the is overcrowded (Lexington level of being overcrowded) on weekends, don't hope for much change. There are many other crowded trains during the weekend, so why this line instead of increasing service on the or or any other number of lines? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CDTA Posted August 7, 2012 Author Share #230 Posted August 7, 2012 Unless the is overcrowded (Lexington level of being overcrowded) on weekends, don't hope for much change. There are many other crowded trains during the weekend, so why this line instead of increasing service on the or or any other number of lines? Because the is at capacity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q10 Airport Posted August 7, 2012 Share #231 Posted August 7, 2012 Because the is at capacity. On weekends? I doubt it, because last time I was on the (Saturday mid day) they were running once every ten minutes. On weekdays, I agree, the is at capacity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vistausss Posted August 10, 2012 Share #232 Posted August 10, 2012 "It's already been established"? By whom? What problem do you think you're solving? Why would the MTA spend money to increase D service when D trains aren't overcrowded? (By my back-of-the-envelope calculations, increasing the D from a 10-minute headway to an 8-minute headway adds five trains to the requirements.) Look buddy, you need to focus on what happens in practice, not on one friend of yours or what the MTA says. Lemme tell you a little story. Here in The Netherlands, on the railway line thats closest to me, trains are overcrowded. The Dutch Railways deny it. But I have pictures as proof that there IS overcrowding. Lots of (and I have experienced it myself 2 times). My point being: it doesn't matter what any transit authority says or what statistics they use, in practice things could be different. So I suggest you board a few trains on weekends or at least go somewhere along the line and observe yourself. It might me be more crowded than you seem to think based on some statistics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Vandelay Posted August 10, 2012 Share #233 Posted August 10, 2012 It is painfully obvious to anyone who actually uses the D on weekends that Andrew is entirely correct. When I ride the D, it is wonderful to have the empty cars to myself, passing those packed C trains. However, when I wait for the C, it is infuriating to see empty D trains crawling past the platform, each train with fewer riders than are waiting for the next packed C on each platform from 96 south. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vistausss Posted August 10, 2012 Share #234 Posted August 10, 2012 Well, then Andrew should ride and observe both the C and D to test that out. Now he's only making assumptions, just like you because you see some empty trains on the and some packed trains on the . But it'll be better to do a test and ride and observe them for a few hours. That'll give more insight than a few bypassing trains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Concourse Express Posted August 10, 2012 Share #235 Posted August 10, 2012 It is painfully obvious to anyone who actually uses the D on weekends that Andrew is entirely correct. When I ride the D, it is wonderful to have the empty cars to myself, passing those packed C trains. However, when I wait for the C, it is infuriating to see empty D trains crawling past the platform, each train with fewer riders than are waiting for the next packed C on each platform from 96 south. LOL! It's "painfully obvious" to this rider that the opposite of what you state is true, in general! I've been on countless crowded trains through the cpw exp and have passed gloriously empty trains too! The ridership figures also appear to support the hypothesis that the cpw local situation isn't dire, your exaggerations notwithstanding. Well, then Andrew should ride and observe both the C and D to test that out. Now he's only making assumptions, just like you because you see some empty trains on the and some packed trains on the . But it'll be better to do a test and ride and observe them for a few hours. That'll give more insight than a few bypassing trains. That won't be enough. You won't be able to collect enough samples (i.e. >= 30 for a normal distribution) in a few hours. Methinks you'd have to collect random samples over a period of several weekends to get a reliable estimate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B35 via Church Posted August 11, 2012 Share #236 Posted August 11, 2012 All I really have to say about this is, 's are crowded on weekends on the Bronx-Manhattan end of the line..... on the Brooklyn-Manhattan end, not near as much..... I see where Concourse Express is coming from, regarding the northern half of the line, but I also see where ppl. that are saying they catch virtually empty cars on the are coming from as well - When I hit up the hobby shops in chinatown on the weekends, there are plenty seats available on most cars.... I can't easily say the same if I'm in manhattan, and I'm riding the D towards the Bronx.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vistausss Posted August 11, 2012 Share #237 Posted August 11, 2012 That won't be enough. You won't be able to collect enough samples (i.e. >= 30 for a normal distribution) in a few hours. Methinks you'd have to collect random samples over a period of several weekends to get a reliable estimate. That's even better Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
realizm Posted August 11, 2012 Share #238 Posted August 11, 2012 This weekend due to a GO Bronx bound D trains will be going express on the Grand Concourse. Perhaps this would be a good opportunity for subway enthusiasts opting for a D local to observe ridership patterns. I know that the trains will be crowded because Bronx bound residents won't be able to exit at the local stations but it would be interesting to see how many people will still be on the train after Tremont Avenue. Provided that the headways doesn't change from the normal weekend pattern. Maybe this won't prove anything or maybe it will. I'm just throwing the suggestion out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
realizm Posted August 11, 2012 Share #239 Posted August 11, 2012 Should have took pics, sorry, but I noticed that the Service advisories omitted the weekend GOs for the D in the Bronx. It only listed the changes in Brooklyn, correct me if I'm wrong. A little tidbit for those wanting to get pics of this typo. I'm absolutely sure that the diversion is correct because I had to head down into the city to take a Microsoft exam. (Yes I passed, and now looking for that raise) Had to take the D to the IRT. The Bronx bound trains on the CG were definitely skipping stations on the middle track. That's when I realized that those service advisories had typos in it. A bit off topic I know but yeah. I took the IRT back to the Bronx so I never rode the D Bronx bound. Damn can I ever stay on topic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q10 Airport Posted August 11, 2012 Share #240 Posted August 11, 2012 This weekend due to a GO Bronx bound D trains will be going express on the Grand Concourse. Perhaps this would be a good opportunity for subway enthusiasts opting for a D local to observe ridership patterns. I know that the trains will be crowded because Bronx bound residents won't be able to exit at the local stations but it would be interesting to see how many people will still be on the train after Tremont Avenue. Provided that the headways doesn't change from the normal weekend pattern. Maybe this won't prove anything or maybe it will. I'm just throwing the suggestion out there. No. It would be better to see the on a weekend where there aren't service changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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