What would be the best way to improve weekend CPW service?

[AndrewJC]

Before responding to anybody in particular, I'm seeing a lot of proposed solutions, but it's not clear what problem they're aiming to solve. Let's start by identifying the problem. I'll list a few possibilities; feel free to add on others if you think I've left anything out:

1. 1. The CPW corridor (A/C/D) is overcrowded on weekends (over 125% of a seated load in the average car on the average train).
    
   
2. 2. The C train specifically is overcrowded on weekends, but the corridor as a whole is not.
    
   
3. 3. There's no overcrowding issue, but CPW local riders would like shorter headways.
    
   
4. 4. There's a significant market for direct service between CPW local stations and 6th Avenue. That market is met on weekdays with the B but only with a transfer on weekends - a transfer which costs 5 minutes on average and 10 minutes in the worst case (assuming trains are perfectly spaced).
   

 

Remember that the agency operating these services has guidelines that dictate frequencies, largely based on loading. Running extra services not warranted by guidelines is costly - not only on CPW, but as soon as word gets out that the MTA added service that weren't called for according to the guidelines, politicians across the city will demand that their subway and bus lines get the same treatment!

 

With that in mind, let's go one by one.

 

If #1 is the problem, then the only solution is to add service. Which of the three lines should get the additional service is based on line-by-line loadings. But I'm fairly confident that #1 is not the problem.

 

If #2 is the problem, then the solution is to rebalance the existing CPW service - that is, provide more local and less express service. I don't think this is the problem, but I may be wrong.

 

If #3 is the problem, too bad. Everybody wants shorter headways. CPW riders aren't more important than anybody else in the city. Politely tell them that their headways meet systemwide standards. The end.

 

If #4 is the problem - and I personally think this is the most significant problem with CPW service on weekends - then the solution is to run the D local (which, incidentally, also solves #2, if that is also a problem). The only other solution that anybody here has proposed, to run some form of B on weekends, is not warranted by guidelines. It's a waste of money and it won't happen.

 

Getting on to the responses:

 

1) I didn't assume all Concourse riders use the express (that's why I said "traveling to Midtown" as opposed to "traveling"). I'm aware of the intraborough, Bronx-Harlem, Bronx-cpw lcl, etc. patterns (from my experiences, the Bronx-cpw lcl contingent is the smallest of these). Indeed, more info is needed; finding the proportion of riders of a line who use stations relative to total riders could be a starting point.

 

 

I think you omitted Concourse -> 8th Avenue riders, who can retain their express service by transferring at 145th.

 

2) You mention the IRT. While you may attract some riders, you must remember two things:

-96 and 72 on the IRT are *express* stops and as such will remain more attractive than the corresponding cpw lcl stops even with the lcl (not only because of availability of exp service, but because IRT service at 96 & 72 will always be more frequent, barring GOs)

-The population density relative to IRT stops is greater than that of the cpw lcl so the IRT stops will retain a much higher share of the upper west side ridership.

 

 

The population density is highest between the IRT and IND. Currently, not only is the CPW local infrequent relative to the IRT (especially at express stops), but the CPW local serves a less central corridor in Midtown. More than the frequency boost, I think the direct 6th Avenue access would attract people off the IRT. Somebody going from, say, 96th and Columbus to Herald Square can currently walk two long blocks to Broadway, take the IRT to 34th and 7th, and walk one long block to 6th, or he can walk one long block to CPW, take the IND to 34th and 8th, and walk two long blocks to 6th. Total walking distance is similar, so he'll probably take the option that's more frequent. But if the D ran local, he could walk one long block to CPW and take the D straight to his destination, saving two long blocks of walking - easily offsetting the increased wait time (for the D vs. the 1/2/3). The 1/2/3 would still be quite busy, no doubt, but the D would be attractive to people going to Central Midtown.

 

4) The lcl idea may be inexpensive relative to the others (though methinks an 8-min headway on the can't be that much more costly), but it is the only one which introduces detriments (not to mention Concourse riders traveling to Midtown already have longer trip times than cpw lcl riders under the *current* pattern).

 

 

The round trip running time on the C, including relays at either end, takes about 150 minutes. If trains run every 10 minutes, then 15 trains are in service at a time. If trains run every 8 minutes, then 19 trains are in service at any time. That's four additional trains.

 

By your own numbers, running the D local adds 3 minutes to the running time each way, or 6 minutes round trip. With a headway of 10 minutes, that requires maybe one additional train, at most.

 

And aside from the cost issue, simply increasing C service does nothing to address problem #4. Frankly, I don't think increasing C service solves any actual problem at all. If we're not going to solve a problem, why run four more trains?

 

I'm not sure what point you're making regarding longer travel times. The raw distance from the Concourse line to Midtown is much longer than the raw distance from CPW to Midtown, so of course travel times are longer. (Bedford Park to Herald Square is over three times the distance than 96th to Herald Square).

 

But providing direct CPW -> 6th Avenue service reduces the typical travel time from 96th to Herald Square by 23% (average 5 minute wait for the C plus average 5 minute wait for the D plus 12 minutes in motion - running the D local knocks out the 5-minute wait for the C), while adding 3 minutes to a trip from Bedford Park to Herald Square increases the trip time (including an average wait of 5 minutes) by only 7%. Looking at worst case wait times (if you're unlucky enough to just miss every train you try to catch) makes the difference even more dramatic: still about a 7% increase for the trip from the Bronx, but a whopping 31% savings for the trip within Manhattan.

 

Remember, I'm not saying that the D should run local. I'm just saying that it's worth considering. NYCT's planners, who presumably have access to a lot more numbers than we do here, might want to look into it. If they conclude that the advantages to running the D local would outweigh the disadvantages, then presumably they'd formally propose the change. If not, then they wouldn't.

 

5) Never say never re: MTA deciding to run more , , and/or trains now or in the future.

 

 

As long as loads and guidelines remain as they are today, I think it's pretty safe to say never.

 

Well, I've checked the G.O.s most weekends and I would guess from my experience that while those service changes are fairly common, most weekends don't have them.

 

 

Tracks are shut down when they need to be shut down, and that happens on CPW just like it happens on every other line. And as I've pointed out, it isn't just GO's on CPW itself that interfere with B service.

 

Once these three projects start up in a few years, expect to see GO's on the Manhattan IND almost every weekend! Most of them will be incompatible with B service.

 

I do think that increasing service would do the trick. I mean, having the run every 10 minutes (like it currently does) isn't that terrible to begin with, so I'm thinking that running it every 8 minutes would do the trick.

 

 

What trick? What problem are you trying to solve?

 

The more that I think about this, I realize that running the or the local would overserve CPW.

 

 

I don't follow. You're suggesting adding service; I'm not.

[CDTA]

As much as I want extra service, I don't want to have the be packed too, and add a an extra seven minutes to Concourse riders commutes, not to mention a more uncomfortable ride for them. Also, lets not throw out Harlem riders who use the too.

[AndrewJC]

As much as I want extra service, I don't want to have the be packed too, and add a an extra seven minutes to Concourse riders commutes, not to mention a more uncomfortable ride for them. Also, lets not throw out Harlem riders who use the too.

 

 

How do you get seven minutes? It was three the other day - did it more-than-double overnight?

 

Who's throwing out Harlem riders? All the riders and potential riders should be included in the analysis. (Don't forget that many Harlem riders want the A anyway.)

[realizm]

It's the fact that many riders in the Bronx need a D express train to commute to and from work. I'm very sure that those commuters are not taking that express train to foam, because that ride from say 205th street, all the way to 6th avenue is enough of a long and time consuming ride. Lexington Avenue is maxed out as it is and we won't see a 2nd avenue extension to the Bronx let alone 125th street anytime soon. So I don't think running a D local will be a good idea. In fact it would be a disaster.

 

I ride that line Mondays through Friday. What I've noticed with rush hour local and express service on the Grand Concourse: The B train is relatively empty up until it reaches 167th street and then 161st street. On the PM rush, it's empty after it reaches 161st street. Meanwhile the D Concourse express train is packed all they way to at least Fordham Road. That shows in itself without even considering stats on headways and capacity how dependant Bronx riders are on express service on the Grand Concourse and CPW to midtown.

 

Making the D local won't work and will surely be very unpopular with riders who got to make it to where they must go, on time. That's like permanantly suspending 7 train express service to Main Street or Times Square on the weekdays to and from Manhattan. People got places to go to and must do so under a limited time frame. Not to mention the potential for serious overcrowding with decreased headways if something like that was to happen.

[TheSubwayStation]

@ Realizm 2012, just to be fair, we're talking about weekends, not weekdays. And, the CPW express only saves 4 minutes.

[TwoTimer]

This will also increase overcrowding on the , those trains are already packed with Bronx goers leaving 59, and it will look very much like feeding CPW with a silver spoon (the idea of people being able to sit on a to go a few stops) while shafting the Bronx (yet again). Just a reminder that service on weekends also got cut, and the result may have pulled a few over to the as well.

 

About the shorter train/faster headway vs longer train/slower headway argument, just a reminder that the second option is the cheaper of the two, with no extra crews needed. Since the amount of car space used is mathmatically the same, it makes what's cheaper fairly clear.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

The one thing I will say is that it can take FOREVER for one measly train to come on the weekends on this line... IMO both the and the run like crap on the weekends.

[Threxx]

Running trains between 2nd Avenue and 145th Street on weekends will not be a waste. As you said yourself Andrew, the demand is for 6th, so why would riders not frequent a weekend ? We can probably agree, it will not get much ridership on Brighton, but it can be done in Manhattan.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Running trains between 2nd Avenue and 145th Street on weekends will not be a waste. As you said yourself Andrew, the demand is for 6th, so why would riders not frequent a weekend ? We can probably agree, it will not get much ridership on Brighton, but it can be done in Manhattan.

 

 

And why wouldn't it get much ridership in Brooklyn? Based on what? A few folks at the Town Hall Meeting in Sheepshead Bay complained about wanting direct access to 6th Av on weekends via the subway.

[CDTA]

Well, iv'e seen some pretty packed trains on the weekend, so it might be worth it to run on the Brighton Local.

[Threxx]

And why wouldn't it get much ridership in Brooklyn? Based on what? A few folks at the Town Hall Meeting in Sheepshead Bay complained about wanting direct access to 6th Av on weekends via the subway.

 

Well, iv'e seen some pretty packed trains on the weekend, so it might be worth it to run on the Brighton Local.

 

 

If it ran express, it wouldn't get much usage. As CDTA said, if it ran local, it could probably get more usage otherwise, but I would start it b/w 2nd Avenue and 145th Street...

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Well, iv'e seen some pretty packed trains on the weekend, so it might be worth it to run on the Brighton Local.

 

 

So have I, which is why I've mentioned having the run on weekends, but people keep saying oh it isn't needed. I don't think anyone really pays attention on how ridership is growing on the weekends in general and they just automatically assume that the usual service is fine on the weekends.

 

 

If it ran express, it wouldn't get much usage. As CDTA said, if it ran local, it could probably get more usage otherwise, but I would start it b/w 2nd Avenue and 145th Street...

 

 

You still haven't said based on what information? What makes you so sure that it wouldn't?? You have people wanting the on the weekends to access 6th Ave so there very well could be a demand for it.

[CDTA]

You still haven't said based on what information? What makes you so sure that it wouldn't?? You have people wanting the on the weekends to access 6th Ave so there very well could be a demand for it.

 

 

 

Yes, but how many people want it?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Yes, but how many people want it?

 

 

Well I think it's worth doing a reach out to the community to be honest. As I said before some folks in the Town Hall Meeting in Sheepshead Bay brought it up and quite frankly it is something that I plan on writing to elected representatives about when the MTA's fiscal situation improves because I think there could be a demand there, esp. seeing how ridership continues to grow on the on the weekends. Populations change and people's needs change. Even the MTA has admitted that folks are using the subways more now on the weekends and they understand that weekend service is no longer taken for granted if you will. You have the tourists using it more on the weekends, plus folks working and folks going shopping or even to school on Saturdays.

 

I say this as a long time Sheepshead Bay resident. Weekend ridership has continued to grow from the time I was living back in Sheepshead Bay until now and I still use it and quite frankly am surprised at how crowded it is now.

 

If it did run (the that is), I would not run it local in Brooklyn. The express can shave off a good 15 minutes from the commutes of folks in South Brooklyn and quite frankly it's about time that communities outside of Manhattan started seeing more express service outside of rush hours.

[CDTA]

Well I think it's worth doing a reach out to the community to be honest. As I said before some folks in the Town Hall Meeting in Sheepshead Bay brought it up and quite frankly it is something that I plan on writing to elected representatives about when the MTA's fiscal situation improves because I think there could be a demand there, esp. seeing how ridership continues to grow on the on the weekends. Populations change and people's needs change. Even the MTA has admitted that folks are using the subways more now on the weekends and they understand that weekend service is no longer taken for granted if you will. You have the tourists using it more on the weekends, plus folks working and folks going shopping or even to school on Saturdays.

 

I say this as a long time Sheepshead Bay resident. Weekend ridership has continued to grow from the time I was living back in Sheepshead Bay until now and I still use it and quite frankly am surprised at how crowded it is now.

 

 

 

Just because the is crowded, does not mean the will be. Remember the is an EXPRESS.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Just because the is crowded, does not mean the will be. Remember the is an EXPRESS.

 

 

I know what the is. I lived in Sheepshead Bay for over 15 years. Thank you. That is why I said A REACHOUT to the community should be done. In other words, see what the community thinks about it since some in the community have voiced wanting it and if it is feasible and will be used, find the money to run it.

[TheSubwayStation]

So have I, which is why I've mentioned having the run on weekends, but people keep saying oh it isn't needed. I don't think anyone really pays attention on how ridership is growing on the weekends in general and they just automatically assume that the usual service is fine on the weekends.

 

 

You still haven't said based on what information? What makes you so sure that it wouldn't?? You have people wanting the on the weekends to access 6th Ave so there very well could be a demand for it.

 

Here's some information: I just checked the weekend ridership statistics on mta.info for every station on the Brighton Line between 7 Av and Brighton Beach, and 2011 ridership has decreased from 2010 at every single station except for Newkirk Plaza and Neck Road.

 

If it did run (the that is), I would not run it local in Brooklyn. The express can shave off a good 15 minutes from the commutes of folks in South Brooklyn and quite frankly it's about time that communities outside of Manhattan started seeing more express service outside of rush hours.

 

Uh, no.

 

The question is not whether people in Sheepshead Bay or Brighton Beach would benefit from the ; of course they would. It's about whether you're going to have fairly empty and trains and a lot of money spent. If the is crowded on the weekend, the solution might be to increase service by a little bit, rather than creating a whole new line which would nearly double Brighton Line service.

[TwoTimer]

A similar reach out to those people on those platforms from 81-116st as well to really see if they all want 6Av service (and when I say 6 Av, I mean specifically 14st up to 7Av, points below mostly requires a transfer anyway) instead of assuming at least half of them want 6Av.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Here's some information: I just checked the weekend ridership statistics on mta.info for every station on the Brighton Line between 7 Av and Brighton Beach, and ridership has decreased from last year at every single station except for Newkirk Plaza and Neck Road.

 

And so? I don't know how accurate those numbers can be with all of the construction on the Brighton line. Furthermore, I didn't say anything about implementing service right away. What I said was to see what the community thinks about it when the MTA's financial situation improves (which may not be for several years). Ridership fluctuates anyway, so who knows what will happen down the road.

 

Uh, no.

 

 

Uh no what? I know from personal experience. Depending on where you're going it most certainly can especially since you wouldn't have to transfer to another train if you had the and needed 6th Avenue on the Brighton Line.

[TwoTimer]

I think it can be as much as 15 mins when you add in the wait time (10 mins if you just missed a to the runtime, which is roughly 5 mins saved with the express).

[TheSubwayStation]

And so? I don't know how accurate those numbers can be with all of the construction on the Brighton line. Furthermore, I didn't say anything about implementing service right away. What I said was to see what the community thinks about it when the MTA's financial situation improves (which may not be for several years). Ridership fluctuates anyway, so who knows what will happen down the road.

 

Okay. That sounds like a good idea.

Uh no what? I know from personal experience. Depending on where you're going it most certainly can especially since you wouldn't have to transfer to another train if you had the and needed 6th Avenue on the Brighton Line.

 

Well sure, the would save you time if you'd otherwise be transferring. But we were talking about running the local vs. express on the weekends, not whether to run it at all. You said, "No, it should run express because it saves 15 minutes for riders." That isn't true.

 

 

I think it can be as much as 15 mins when you add in the wait time (10 mins if you just missed a to the runtime, which is roughly 5 mins saved with the express).

 

Remember, we were talking specifically about whether a weekend should run express or local, not about waiting times.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

The question is not whether people in Sheepshead Bay or Brighton Beach would benefit from the ; of course they would. It's about whether you're going to have fairly empty and trains and a lot of money spent. If the is crowded on the weekend, the solution might be to increase service by a little bit, rather than creating a whole new line which would nearly double Brighton Line service.

 

 

But who says you can't cut back on service a little to implement some service?

 

 

Okay. That sounds like a good idea.Well sure, the would save you time if you'd otherwise be transferring. But we were talking about running the local vs. express on the weekends, not whether to run it at all. You said, "No, it should run express because it saves 15 minutes for riders." That isn't true.

 

 

Quite frankly I don't see the point in running it local when it has its own tracks up until the Prospect Park station. As for your other point yes, as I said before, depending on where you're going you could save up to 15 minutes. If you're going to the same place that the stops then yes, you save only say 5 minutes or so.

[Quill Depot]

It never hurts to try.

 

Correct.

 

And why wouldn't it get much ridership in Brooklyn? Based on what? A few folks at the Town Hall Meeting in Sheepshead Bay complained about wanting direct access to 6th Av on weekends via the subway.

 

 

People can't always get what they want. Take the to Coney where you can take a Manhattan-bound or . Or take the to 34th St - Herald Square and take an or . Transferring is not that hard. We are more concerned about CPW riders, not Brighton riders.

 

The to 2nd Ave would be a good idea. It should run 6th Avenue local though. Not express. This may make it hard for tourists though.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Correct.

 

 

 

People can't always get what they want. Take the to Coney where you can take a Manhattan-bound or . Or take the to 34th St - Herald Square and take an or . Transferring is not that hard. We are more concerned about CPW riders, not Brighton riders.

 

The to 2nd Ave would be a good idea. It should run 6th Avenue local though. Not express. This may make it hard for tourists though.

 

 

Which is why I said for the third time you reach out to the community to see if the service is feasible...

[NX Express]

But who says you can't cut back on service a little to implement some service?

 

 

I'm sure the local riders would be glad to see their service cut to every 12-15 minutes just so they can see the fly by on weekends. Remember, after the reconstruction was over the local communities had wanted to keep the local on weekdays as well, so cutting the isn't going to happen.

 

If the goes local on weekends, then they'd probably be okay with it.