Our Mass Transit Future Parts 2 and 3 - What Happened to Democracy?

[realizm]

Just hire the right lobbyists to work for the MTA. Nassau is getting more state cash for their bus operations, and that'll just go directly to Veolia's pockets with no increase in service. All it took was probably a couple thousand bucks in campaign donations on Veolia's part (state politicians are cheap).

 

Like I mentioned before many NYS politicians can be so jaded its surreal and actually appallingly stupid really.

[Culver]

Like I mentioned before many NYS politicians can be so jaded its surreal and actually appallingly stupid really.

They're not jaded, they work for whoever pays for their campaign posters and ads; it's a business. That, and occasional pork to let the locals know they're totally fighting for them. And in the case of Nassau politicians, they're also unbelievably arrogant in their outright quest to break NYC's back and have us pay for their LIRR service. It would be comedy if it weren't sad and disgusting.

[realizm]

@ At the entire crew in this thread: It's pretty live in here with the valid comments. Very appreciated by me. Great discussion.

[qjtransitmaster]

Why should Long Islanders pay a tax for the MTA if many Long Islanders don't even use the system on a regular basis. In New York City people are more reliant on the Subway and Bus, most Long Islanders only take the train when they are going to work in Manhattan. Theres a good amount of Long Islanders who work in Nassau or Suffolk county and drive to work. Why should they have to pay for something they don't use.

You really can't be serious the real reason why LIers drive to work is simple LIRR has zero reverse commute service on the KO line and SCT suffers ridership wise indirectly only exasperated by poor rush hour service. Indirect bus lines that basically link the middle of nothing to well nothing look at N74/73 they have zero trip generators other than the LIRR what do you expect folks to do they don't even have proper transit they barely have a choice. However suffolk to nassau has a bit more bus NICE service of late yeah I think you know how it is. Complete shit. 

 

The rationale behind it is that the LIRR (and indirectly the public transit system in the boros) takes cars off the road. The people that are using public transit would otherwise be driving to the city or their destinations. Since those cars aren't on the road other than getting to a train station, it reduces congestion for those who do not have the viable option of mass transit.

 

For example: Say that there is no service east of Ronkonkoma, Huntington, or Babylon (as there was this weekend). More people would need to drive to those stations to get a train. That adds to congestion for those who aren't going to a train station.

 

Same idea, but apply it to the entire island. The same could be said for Metro North and bus/subway within the 5 boros.

 

Short version: it frees up road space for those who need it more and thus benefits both MTA users and other drivers, which benefits businesses and other entities. I know this primarily deals with the island but, as we saw with the Sandy bus bridge, it's true throughout the entire MTA region.

Best post I've heard from you yet.

[RestrictOnTheHanger]

Thanks QJ. I tend to read way more than I post here.

 

The real reason why LIers drive to work is simple LIRR has zero reverse commute service on the KO line and SCT suffers ridership wise indirectly only exasperated by poor rush hour service. Indirect bus lines that basically link the middle of nothing to well nothing look at N74/73 they have zero trip generators other than the LIRR what do you expect folks to do they don't even have proper transit they barely have a choice. However suffolk to nassau has a bit more bus NICE service of late yeah I think you know how it is. Complete shit.

Ill add to this too by saying for those that don't know, the LIRR doesn't really serve intra island commuters well during rush hour like MN does. It doesn't do that too well to begin with, but that's another story.

[realizm]

They're not jaded, they work for whoever pays for their campaign posters and ads; it's a business. That, and occasional pork to let the locals know they're totally fighting for them. And in the case of Nassau politicians, they're also unbelievably arrogant in their outright quest to break NYC's back and have us pay for their LIRR service. It would be comedy if it weren't sad and disgusting.

 

I beg to differ because the politicians actually told the MTA in so many words to shove it when the MTA was under pressure to avoid the March take hike as well as The New York State Senate delivering the smakdown to the MTA  by denying, for the current 2010-2014 Capital Program, both $770 million in additional funding and an increase in MTA's bonding authority. That in itself says alot concerning the LIRR and its problems.

 

Thanks QJ. I tend to read way more than I post here.

 

Ill add to this too by saying for those that don't know, the LIRR doesn't really serve intra island commuters well during rush hour like MN does. It doesn't do that too well to begin with, but that's another story.

 

Yeah QJT knows his stuff. I'm getting skooled here by his posts and his perspective.

[Culver]

I beg to differ because the politicians actually told the MTA in so many words to shove it when the MTA was under pressure to avoid the March take hike as well as The New York State Senate delivering the smakdown to the MTA  by denying, for the current 2010-2014 Capital Program, both $770 million in additional funding and an increase in MTA's bonding authority. That in itself says alot concerning the LIRR and its problems.

Yes, because those politicians either a) still consider public transit to be a welfare program for the poors; b) are from non-MTA counties and would love to defund it completely; or c) from MTA-served counties and just don't want to pay for the services their constituents receive anyways. The Long Island politicians want the LIRR funded, by NYC, and they've directly said as much. NYC reps in Albany just stick with the "cut MTA funding then fake outrage at the MTA trying to recoup lost revenues via fares" act, and it works every time with a lazy local media and sheep voters.

 

As for my lobbyist point, I'll stick by it, as the Veolia case in Nassau illustrates. I'll have to Google this tomorrow, but I suspect Veolia made some campaign contributions. On a state level, $1,000 per rep is already enough to get what you need, and for all the politicians they likely donated to, they'll get at least a 500% return on their investment with the increase in state aid that will go directly into the profit column.

 

*At the very first find, they've given handily to Mangano's campaign...no wonder.

[realizm]

Yes, because those politicians either a) still consider public transit to be a welfare program for the poors; b) are from non-MTA counties and would love to defund it completely; or c) from MTA-served counties and just don't want to pay for the services their constituents receive anyways. The Long Island politicians want the LIRR funded, by NYC, and they've directly said as much.

 

Solid! I thought I was the only one seeing the ignorance with those elitist politicians. Particularly point a)

[Culver]

Solid! I thought I was the only one seeing the ignorance with those elitist politicians. Particularly point a)

BREAKING NEWS: Cheap sell-out politicians are cheap sell-outs.

 

http://www.elections.ny.gov:8080/plsql_browser/CONTRIBUTORB_NAME?LAST_NAME_IN=&NAME_IN=Veolia&position_IN=START&date_from=01%2F01%2F2010&date_to=12%2F31%2F2012&AMOUNT_from=1&AMOUNT_to=20000&ORDERBY_IN=N

 

For a modest $9,790.00 given to Mangano and the Nassau county elephant committee (that's not counting any anonymous SuperPAC donations to the Nassau elephant party), Veolia received a multi-million dollar bus contract, and now an increase in state aid that they will pocket. And all they have to do now is keep occasionally-running buses and continue to "save" money for Nassau by not bothering with things like maintenance or proper driver training.

 

Best of all, it's all legal. Fun times.

[lilbluefoxie]

Because you LI folk use the LIRR. Lots of you do. And some use the subways from Penn Station and Flatbush terminal. What you suggest is grossly entitled and selfish. So if Nassau had their way, the mostly affluent residents of Nassau get to use the very-expensive-to-run LIRR (and then if needed as part of commute, the subways) with a complete subsidy from the mostly lower-and-middle class NYC. That's almost insane in its shameless sense of entitlement.

If you don't want to pay the MTA payroll tax, then that's fine by me; just have LIRR trains bypass Nassau county stops and end Port Washington branch service at Douglaston.

 

And let the people who ride the LIRR pay for it, instead of forcing the entire county to. The LIRR should find ways to run more efficiently and cheaper instead of sticking it to Long Islanders every time they run short on funds. Not every Long Islander is a regular user of the LIRR or the Subway or even the county bus systems.

 

You city people are the ones with a shameless sense of entitlement, expect us to pay a payroll tax for a service many Long Islanders seldom use. The city residents should be the ones paying for NYC Transit, since they are the primary users of it. and before you start, if someone works in new york city but lives in the suburbs they still pay new york city taxes.

 

The rationale behind it is that the LIRR (and indirectly the public transit system in the boros) takes cars off the road. The people that are using public transit would otherwise be driving to the city or their destinations. Since those cars aren't on the road other than getting to a train station, it reduces congestion for those who do not have the viable option of mass transit.

 

For example: Say that there is no service east of Ronkonkoma, Huntington, or Babylon (as there was this weekend). More people would need to drive to those stations to get a train. That adds to congestion for those who aren't going to a train station.

 

Same idea, but apply it to the entire island. The same could be said for Metro North and bus/subway within the 5 boros.

 

Short version: it frees up road space for those who need it more and thus benefits both MTA users and other drivers, which benefits businesses and other entities. I know this primarily deals with the island but, as we saw with the Sandy bus bridge, it's true throughout the entire MTA region.

 

People still drive to those nearer stations, and yet its not a huge traffic impact that far out in Suffolk. People drive to Speonk, people drive to Ronkonkoma. Traffic that far out is never that bad unless theres a huge accident or road closure.

 

You really can't be serious the real reason why LIers drive to work is simple LIRR has zero reverse commute service on the KO line and SCT suffers ridership wise indirectly only exasperated by poor rush hour service. Indirect bus lines that basically link the middle of nothing to well nothing look at N74/73 they have zero trip generators other than the LIRR what do you expect folks to do they don't even have proper transit they barely have a choice. However suffolk to nassau has a bit more bus NICE service of late yeah I think you know how it is. Complete shit. 

 

Best post I've heard from you yet.

 

The business parks in Suffolk are nowhere near the LIRR, people would rather drive directly than deal with the train and a bus transfer. You can make all the new routes you want, im still driving and I believe many others out here share my sentiment.

[qjtransitmaster]

And let the people who ride the LIRR pay for it, instead of forcing the entire county to. The LIRR should find ways to run more efficiently and cheaper instead of sticking it to Long Islanders every time they run short on funds. Not every Long Islander is a regular user of the LIRR or the Subway or even the county bus systems.

 

You city people are the ones with a shameless sense of entitlement, expect us to pay a payroll tax for a service many Long Islanders seldom use. The city residents should be the ones paying for NYC Transit, since they are the primary users of it. and before you start, if someone works in new york city but lives in the suburbs they still pay new york city taxes.

 

 

People still drive to those nearer stations, and yet its not a huge traffic impact that far out in Suffolk. People drive to Speonk, people drive to Ronkonkoma. Traffic that far out is never that bad unless theres a huge accident or road closure.

 

 

The business parks in Suffolk are nowhere near the LIRR, people would rather drive directly than deal with the train and a bus transfer. You can make all the new routes you want, im still driving and I believe many others out here share my sentiment.

THE BUSES BARELY RUN THEY CAN'T USE IT ANYWAY!!!!! Plus LIRR service to them what service? Greenport line is complete shit you must drive you are not a mind reader. Not an excuse to defend poor transit. I really don't want to know what your on when you made that statement. New routes aren't needed to make transit to those places work. What is needed is better rush hour service to brentwood and central islip LIRR fortunately S45 is decent and well used. Then make LIRR have reverse service via 2nd track and 3rd main line track or via central branch. And allow shortline to become open-door in LI merge their OWL with I-495 service and extend owl trips to LI with better morning trips at reverse hour and better stops sorry hempstead.

 

 

Well to be fair speonk and ronkonkoma are the middle of nowhere. You can run in your birthday suit without being spotted for a solid 40 mins.

[Culver]

And let the people who ride the LIRR pay for it, instead of forcing the entire county to. The LIRR should find ways to run more efficiently and cheaper instead of sticking it to Long Islanders every time they run short on funds. Not every Long Islander is a regular user of the LIRR or the Subway or even the county bus systems.

 

You city people are the ones with a shameless sense of entitlement, expect us to pay a payroll tax for a service many Long Islanders seldom use. The city residents should be the ones paying for NYC Transit, since they are the primary users of it. and before you start, if someone works in new york city but lives in the suburbs they still pay new york city taxes.

 

 

 

People still drive to those nearer stations, and yet its not a huge traffic impact that far out in Suffolk. People drive to Speonk, people drive to Ronkonkoma. Traffic that far out is never that bad unless theres a huge accident or road closure.

 

 

 

The business parks in Suffolk are nowhere near the LIRR, people would rather drive directly than deal with the train and a bus transfer. You can make all the new routes you want, im still driving and I believe many others out here share my sentiment.

The amount of outright delusion and wrong in this post says it all. Don't take this personally, but I don't think you know how...things work in general. How do you propose "only people who use LIRR" pay for LIRR? The fares would be hilarious. And do you then make it a membership? How does one who isn't a member get on a train quickly? Do they fill out a form? I'm sorry but this hurts to read. The point of a public service is everyone chips in so that it's there and you pay a fare for using it fully. And pleas spare me, plenty of folks use LIRR.

The other issue is you seem to confuse NYC transit and MTA. Nassau pays the payroll tax because it is an MTA served county. It goes to the MTA, not NYCTA. You are horribly confused. Of that MTA, Nassau happens to enjoy a most expensive service. Now I will say it again, when you say you want only NYC to pay the payroll tax, you are directly saying that you want a mostly lower-middle class city to completely subsidize the LIRR for the mostly affluent Nassau county, and that's rather disgusting. Please don't respond with falsehoods again, I'd rather not re-type this.

[lilbluefoxie]

First off the courts struck down the payroll tax, so nobodys paying it out here, and the latest news is the higher court that the MTA was appealing to didnt want to take on the case.

 

As for how to run the LIRR for cheaper, Nassau saved a ton of money by getting a private company to run the buses. Im sure they could do the same thing for the LIRR and save us plenty of money out here. For the high cost of running the LIRR its run very badly compared to Metro North.

[qjtransitmaster]

First off the courts struck down the payroll tax, so nobodys paying it out here, and the latest news is the higher court that the MTA was appealing to didnt want to take on the case.

 

As for how to run the LIRR for cheaper, Nassau saved a ton of money by getting a private company to run the buses. Im sure they could do the same thing for the LIRR and save us plenty of money out here. For the high cost of running the LIRR its run very badly compared to Metro North.

I will admit this I agree with this I am not gonna refute or argue with you against cause well your right. But isn't LIRR independently run? The MTA is well just there for show. The cost of running metro-north is less?

[Culver]

First off the courts struck down the payroll tax, so nobodys paying it out here, and the latest news is the higher court that the MTA was appealing to didnt want to take on the case.

 

As for how to run the LIRR for cheaper, Nassau saved a ton of money by getting a private company to run the buses. Im sure they could do the same thing for the LIRR and save us plenty of money out here. For the high cost of running the LIRR its run very badly compared to Metro North.

Yes, Nassau politicians were very proud of it. Rather repulsive. And then you pretty much kill any credibility in that post by citing NICE. That's just hilarious. I'm sorry, but that's just...I can't think of a word for how let's say misguided it is to cite Veolia on how to improve a service. I knew I should've just down voted your original post and gone to bed. This has been a complete waste of time.

[qjtransitmaster]

Yes, Nassau politicians were very proud of it. Rather repulsive. And then you pretty much kill any credibility in that post by citing NICE. That's just hilarious. I'm sorry, but that's just...I can't think of a word for how let's say misguided it is to cite Veolia on how to improve a service. I knew I should've just down voted your original post and gone to bed. This has been a complete waste of time.

NICE preserved service with the funds nassau had. some lines were upgraded actually. N43,22,and 16 they even resurrected an old line to boot. The only thing I hate is poor maintenance which is funding related as NICE is restricted from cutting routes outright. So to make up shortfall maintenance declines and driver training. service quality downgrades. lilbluefoxie has somewhat of a point.

 

 

How did we go from discussing brooklynbus' brooklyn changes to NICE and LIRR? WTF

[realizm]

You city peple are the ones with a shameless sense of entitlement, expect us to pay a payroll tax for a service many Long Islanders seldom use. The city residents should be the ones paying for NYC Transit, since they are the primary users of it. and before you start, if someone works in new york city but lives in the suburbs they still pay new york city taxes.

 

Excuse me? City people with a shameless sense of entitlement? Look I respect your pride as a LI resident, that's fine.

 

But can you please stop mixing us genuine hard working New Yorkers with the elitist snobs or NIMBYs in the minority? 

 

The city residents are obviously paying for the services offered and maintenance costs  by NYC Transit: 54% to be exact as of 2011 figures in the MTA subways alone! with only a fraction of grants from NYS and the federal government  By fare revenue, you know the swipe of the metrocard and paying the fare! The MTA (again) is a public benefits corporation NOT a non for profit. Google it if my statement here lacks credibility.

 

On your statements on the LIRR and how most LI residents do not use the LIRR, the facts prove that ridership is up by 12% and that increase was confirmed as early as Oct of 2012. In  May 2012 alone, the number of LIRR riders went up by 4 percent: 7,169,078 out of a population of 758,504 residents in Long Island. (according to the 2010 US census)  Of course most own cars I would not deny that but that statistics would say that most people DO take advantage of the LIRR as the busiest railroad IN THE NATION.

 

Google it  or do a forum search if you don't believe me or anyone else here.

[lilbluefoxie]

Incredible. Just wow!

 

Excuse me? City people with a shameless sense of entitlement? Hey don't mix us genuine hard working New Yorkers with the elitist snobs in the minority. Thank you for sharing your subjective perspectives of city residents with us that speaks volumes about your attitude in this discussion while we are looking at this strictly from an objective perspective ......

 

The city residents are obviously paying for the services offered by NYC Transit: 54% to be exact as of 2011 figures in the MTA subways alone! with only a fraction of grants from NYS and the federal government  By fare revenue, you know the swipe of the metrocard and paying the fare! The MTA (again) is a public benefits corporation NOT a non for profit. Google it if my statement here lacks credibility.

 

On your statements on the LIRR and how most LI residents do not use the LIRR, the facts prove that ridership is up by 12% and that increase was confirmed as early as Oct of 2012. In  May 2012 alone, the number of LIRR riders went up by 4 percent: 7,169,078 out of a population of 758,504 residents in Long Island. (according to the 2010 US census)  Of course most own cars I would not deny that but that statistics would say that most people DO take advantage of the LIRR as the busiest railroad IN THE NATION.

 

Be my guest and google it if you find what I'm saying to be incorrect.

 

First off, that other guy was hardly objective, complaining about Long Islanders who oppose paying more of their hard earned money in extra taxes. And yes every time I travel off the Island I do have to pay for the subway by using the bridges which the toll revenue goes towards the Subway. I have proposed before taking the bridges out of the MTA's hands so they cant do that. 

 

Second, if the city residents are paying for the subway, thats a good thing, they use it they should be the ones primarily paying for it.

 

Thirdly, my point was not about who uses the LIRR on Long Island, its why should people that don't commute to the city have to pay the same payroll tax. Why should people that work in the various business areas on Long Island and drive to and from work pay the same tax. The MTA should learn better to spend within their means and if they cant do that for Long Island, well its time we look into getting someone else in there that will.

 

There are states out there with no income tax and no sales tax, but yet they have functional state governments.

[realizm]

First off, that other guy was hardly objective, complaining about Long Islanders who oppose paying more of their hard earned money in extra taxes. And yes every time I travel off the Island I do have to pay for the subway by using the bridges which the toll revenue goes towards the Subway. I have proposed before taking the bridges out of the MTA's hands so they cant do that. 

 

Second, if the city residents are paying for the subway, thats a good thing, they use it they should be the ones primarily paying for it.

 

Thirdly, my point was not about who uses the LIRR on Long Island, its why should people that don't commute to the city have to pay the same payroll tax. Why should people that work in the various business areas on Long Island and drive to and from work pay the same tax. The MTA should learn better to spend within their means and if they cant do that for Long Island, well its time we look into getting someone else in there that will.

 

There are states out there with no income tax and no sales tax, but yet they have functional state governments.

 

Source?

[qjtransitmaster]

for the record I am neutral and just objective here kay culver and lilbluefoxie.

 

Foxie I suggest you use MARTA and you will know how bad transit can get without state support. 

 

Culver in foxie's defense however veolia did a decent job not great or terrible but with the funding they have can't really complain much.

[lilbluefoxie]

The entire reason for putting the bridges under MTA control in the first place was to help generate revenue for the MTA. That was a decision under Nelson Rockefeller.

 

Why do you think they moved the Triboro Bridge and Tunnel Authority under MTA control in the first place, aside from Govenor Rockefeller's personal vendetta with Robert Moses.

[Culver]

First off, that other guy was hardly objective, complaining about Long Islanders who oppose paying more of their hard earned money in extra taxes. And yes every time I travel off the Island I do have to pay for the subway by using the bridges which the toll revenue goes towards the Subway. I have proposed before taking the bridges out of the MTA's hands so they cant do that. 

 

Second, if the city residents are paying for the subway, thats a good thing, they use it they should be the ones primarily paying for it.

 

Thirdly, my point was not about who uses the LIRR on Long Island, its why should people that don't commute to the city have to pay the same payroll tax. Why should people that work in the various business areas on Long Island and drive to and from work pay the same tax. The MTA should learn better to spend within their means and if they cant do that for Long Island, well its time we look into getting someone else in there that will.

 

There are states out there with no income tax and no sales tax, but yet they have functional state governments.

I don't know if there's a point to responding since you keep repeating the same ignorant and false things over and over but I'll give it one last try.

Look, the way a public service works is everybody pitches in via taxes of some sort so the service runs and is there. That way funding stays somewhat stable. Then when you want to use it you pay a fare for your full contribution for the service. That way when you want to use it you don't need a membership or whatever other way you want to make only constant customers pay. If you try and fund it via only fares, the fares become outrageous and nobody uses it. I feel like I'm teaching an elementary school civics class here.

 

As for your last post. Why don't you look up the poverty levels and other quality of life stats for those no-income tax states and get back to me on "doing just fine."

[realizm]

I don't know if there's a point to responding since you keep repeating the same ignorant and false things over and over but I'll give it one last try.

.

As for your last post. Why don't you look up the poverty levels and other quality of life stats for those no-income tax states and get back to me on "doing just fine."

 

Exactly! 

[lilbluefoxie]

for the record I am neutral and just objective here kay culver and lilbluefoxie.

 

Foxie I suggest you use MARTA and you will know how bad transit can get without state support. 

 

Culver in foxie's defense however veolia did a decent job not great or terrible but with the funding they have can't really complain much.

 

Where did I say that I proposed eliminating all funding for the LIRR? The payroll tax was in addition to the money the state gives them already. The state still gives money to the MTA regardless if the extra payroll tax is in effect or not.

[lilbluefoxie]

Its all subjective, these states lack a personal income tax.

 

• Alaska
• Florida
• Nevada
• South Dakota
• Texas
• Washington
• Wyoming

Is everything rosy there, surely not. But they have the basics. Its not like theres no services altogether. Florida is pretty nice in places, Texas has a lot of businesses and such down there. Washington as well. The rest are a bit sleepy but im sure are hardly the horrible places you make them out to be. For someone that likes to live in a big city with a lot of things going on and stuff, I can understand how they would be the worst places for you guys.