Unification of Express Bus Designations

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Come to think of it (due to VG8 mentioning 'SRO'): I wonder, on express buses, are you allowed to stand? Because they are essentially coach buses so I'm not sure about the rules when it comes to standing.

Oh believe me you're allowed to stand on them, but they're not suitable for standing. Staten Island is the only place where I've seen people standing as late as 24:00 or 01:00 in the morning in some cases.  That's partially why the X1 became 24/7 because there was simply too few buses that late at night and I actually went to a board meeting a few years back to speak about this very problem when I was living on Staten Island.  They knew about the problem but didn't have the funding at the time to address the issue.  Anywho, I've stood once on an X10 an vowed that I would never do it again.  On SI buses going through New Jersey there is some sort of rule about not having standees since those buses travel interstate between NY and NJ and I've never seen on on any SI bus going through NJ.  The Riverdale buses apparently have had SRO buses but I've never seen one.  It happened on either a BxM1 or a BxM2 but that was due to some sort of back up with buses.  I haven't seen it too much on SI buses either these days but there are a few lines that still have chronic problems with buses being MIA.  The X5 certainly comes to mind.

[QM1to6Ave]

I've also seen standees (and been one myself) on QM1/5/6/7/8 peak buses into the city, though I have occasionally had B/O's say "sorry, nobody is allowed to stand, wait for the next bus", so I'm not sure if there technically is some rule against it, or the B/O's just weren't comfortable with having people stand. In general, people will wait for the next bus as there are a lot of them and nobody wants to pay 6 dollars to stand. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I've also seen standees (and been one myself) on QM1/5/6/7/8 peak buses into the city, though I have occasionally had B/O's say "sorry, nobody is allowed to stand, wait for the next bus", so I'm not sure if there technically is some rule against it, or the B/O's just weren't comfortable with having people stand. In general, people will wait for the next bus as there are a lot of them and nobody wants to pay 6 dollars to stand. 

No they could stand.  Understand that most Bus depots are old school going back to when they were separate companies so a lot of the stuff they still do under Bus IF they can.  Because of the high fare they will ask if any seats are left and if there aren't any, they'll tell passengers that no seats are left and may give them the option to stand, but the thing is Bus express buses are usually not SRO since Bus gets money from the city to provide service so they don't have to be as stingy in adding buses the way they are on Staten Island.  If there is any chance of a bus being SRO due to buses being late, in some cases they'll even have B/O's on stand by who can fill in and do the run.  It's really up to the B/O usually because if management is strict then they may decide to not allow any other passengers on.  Perfect example being the following:

 

I notice that all Bus express buses that I've been on make all drop-offs at designated bus stops (in other words they can't just drop passengers off anywhere in theory unless they request a stop late at night).  IF they feel safe dropping off a passenger, then they'll do, it otherwise they'll let them off at the actual bus stop or at a place that they deem safe.  That happened with my B/O buddy.  A passenger requested to be let off closer to where he lived along Henry Hudson Parkway and he refused to do so citing safety concerns.  The passenger then called in to complain and wrote in to complain and the B/O was of course called in.  He defended his actions citing safety concerns and that was the end of it since the request wasn't to be dropped off at an actual bus stop.  On Staten Island express buses though, B/O's frequently stop wherever they can to drop you off in the interest of time as long as they feel it's safe enough, but it doesn't have to be at a designated bus stop, and in some cases, the drop-off signs aren't visible on SI routes (particularly in the city) while with Bus buses, they usually are.

 

While we're on the subject of unification of express buses all of the Bus express buses serve areas of the city that the city deems lacks transportation options (i.e. a subway or is a schlepp of a commute) and so therefore they provide monies to ensure that all areas of the city get adequate transportation access.  However, I'm not sure why this doesn't apply with Staten Island (all express buses are under NYCT, along with parts of Southwest Brooklyn and Eastern Queens).

[bobtehpanda]

No they could stand.  Understand that most Bus depots are old school going back to when they were separate companies so a lot of the stuff they still do under Bus IF they can.  Because of the high fare they will ask if any seats are left and if there aren't any, they'll tell passengers that no seats are left and may give them the option to stand, but the thing is Bus express buses are usually not SRO since Bus gets money from the city to provide service so they don't have to be as stingy in adding buses the way they are on Staten Island.  If there is any chance of a bus being SRO due to buses being late, in some cases they'll even have B/O's on stand by who can fill in and do the run.  It's really up to the B/O usually because if management is strict then they may decide to not allow any other passengers on.  Perfect example being the following:

 

I notice that all Bus express buses that I've been on make all drop-offs at designated bus stops (in other words they can't just drop passengers off anywhere in theory unless they request a stop late at night).  IF they feel safe dropping off a passenger, then they'll do, it otherwise they'll let them off at the actual bus stop or at a place that they deem safe.  That happened with my B/O buddy.  A passenger requested to be let off closer to where he lived along Henry Hudson Parkway and he refused to do so citing safety concerns.  The passenger then called in to complain and wrote in to complain and the B/O was of course called in.  He defended his actions citing safety concerns and that was the end of it since the request wasn't to be dropped off at an actual bus stop.  On Staten Island express buses though, B/O's frequently stop wherever they can to drop you off in the interest of time as long as they feel it's safe enough, but it doesn't have to be at a designated bus stop, and in some cases, the drop-off signs aren't visible on SI routes (particularly in the city) while with Bus buses, they usually are.

 

While we're on the subject of unification of express buses all of the Bus express buses serve areas of the city that the city deems lacks transportation options (i.e. a subway or is a schlepp of a commute) and so therefore they provide monies to ensure that all areas of the city get adequate transportation access.  However, I'm not sure why this doesn't apply with Staten Island (all express buses are under NYCT, along with parts of Southwest Brooklyn and Eastern Queens).

 

I believe it's the fact that pretty much all of Staten Island has inconvenient transit access - the Ferry+SIR/bus is generally very reliable, but it's also very long. I'm sure there would be an outcry if express buses were axed from neighborhoods with very quick access to the ferry or neighborhoods very close to SIR. (Edit: misinterpreted that last bit)

 

It's also because a lot of older routes are MTAB routes and they're still integrating them - the buses in Queens that are X routes as opposed to QM routes don't have service levels as high because they're not directly subsidized (as opposed to the _M routes, which were subsidized so that private operators would run them under contract). If the MTAB routes were let out today to brand new companies, I'm sure that DOT would move from paying for a baseline level of service and crowding, to a per-kilometer or per-mile contract and start analyzing data to see where they could cut (the way they're super stingy with the Ferry and the services they still contract out). Keep in mind that this mayoral administration is a lot more about nickel-and-diming everything than previous administrations.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I believe it's the fact that pretty much all of Staten Island has inconvenient transit access - the Ferry+SIR/bus is generally very reliable, but it's also very long. I'm sure there would be an outcry if express buses were axed from neighborhoods with very quick access to the ferry or neighborhoods very close to SIR. (Edit: misinterpreted that last bit)

 

It's also because a lot of older routes are MTAB routes and they're still integrating them - the buses in Queens that are X routes as opposed to QM routes don't have service levels as high because they're not directly subsidized (as opposed to the _M routes, which were subsidized so that private operators would run them under contract). If the MTAB routes were let out today to brand new companies, I'm sure that DOT would move from paying for a baseline level of service and crowding, to a per-kilometer or per-mile contract and start analyzing data to see where they could cut (the way they're super stingy with the Ferry and the services they still contract out)

That was the point I was making... Somebody didn't read what I wrote... 

[QM1to6Ave]

No they could stand.  Understand that most Bus depots are old school going back to when they were separate companies so a lot of the stuff they still do under Bus IF they can.  Because of the high fare they will ask if any seats are left and if there aren't any, they'll tell passengers that no seats are left and may give them the option to stand, but the thing is Bus express buses are usually not SRO since Bus gets money from the city to provide service so they don't have to be as stingy in adding buses the way they are on Staten Island.  If there is any chance of a bus being SRO due to buses being late, in some cases they'll even have B/O's on stand by who can fill in and do the run.  It's really up to the B/O usually because if management is strict then they may decide to not allow any other passengers on.  Perfect example being the following:

 

I notice that all Bus express buses that I've been on make all drop-offs at designated bus stops (in other words they can't just drop passengers off anywhere in theory unless they request a stop late at night).  IF they feel safe dropping off a passenger, then they'll do, it otherwise they'll let them off at the actual bus stop or at a place that they deem safe.  That happened with my B/O buddy.  A passenger requested to be let off closer to where he lived along Henry Hudson Parkway and he refused to do so citing safety concerns.  The passenger then called in to complain and wrote in to complain and the B/O was of course called in.  He defended his actions citing safety concerns and that was the end of it since the request wasn't to be dropped off at an actual bus stop.  On Staten Island express buses though, B/O's frequently stop wherever they can to drop you off in the interest of time as long as they feel it's safe enough, but it doesn't have to be at a designated bus stop, and in some cases, the drop-off signs aren't visible on SI routes (particularly in the city) while with Bus buses, they usually are.

 

While we're on the subject of unification of express buses all of the Bus express buses serve areas of the city that the city deems lacks transportation options (i.e. a subway or is a schlepp of a commute) and so therefore they provide monies to ensure that all areas of the city get adequate transportation access.  However, I'm not sure why this doesn't apply with Staten Island (all express buses are under NYCT, along with parts of Southwest Brooklyn and Eastern Queens).

 

I forgot that the city pays for MTAB routes. Well, I pay city taxes so I guess I am getting my money's worth, haha. Perhaps that is why the QM1/5/6 schedule stays pretty much the same (only very, very minor estimated arrival time changes) every year. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Yes, the loading guidelines are also different for Bus express buses vs. NYCT express buses.

[Kto168]

In that case, we could do away with letters altogether and be like NJT, or even out MTA sign codes, and use a "hundred" number to represent each borough (and for those routes over 100, a higher number or something).

 

 

That's a good compromise. Really, simple borough letter combinations could then be used for local routes that go extensively through two boroughs.

I had thought of that idea as well.

[Kto168]

You know, years back, I had to have been about 13 or 14, I came up with a plan just like that. And I was bored that day, but took the time to write it down. I suggested Manhattan routes would be 1-99, The Bronx 100s, Brooklyn 200s, Queens 300s, S.I 400s and all express routes MTA and PBL 500s &

600s. Thinking that it would lead to a lot of confusion, I scrapped the idea. IDK...would something like that actually work in NYC???

[Vistausss]

@Kto: It works in other American cities and Europe so I don't see why it wouldn't work in NYC. Well, actually, the only problem I foresee is people having trouble to adjust. I mean, it's a radical change...

[bobtehpanda]

@Kto: It works in other American cities and Europe so I don't see why it wouldn't work in NYC. Well, actually, the only problem I foresee is people having trouble to adjust. I mean, it's a radical change...

 

Don't some boroughs have more than 100 routes?

 

It could be problematic, particularly when certain routes numbers are more than just a number (the M86 runs on 86th St, the Q64 goes to 164th St and the Q65 runs on 164th St, etc.)

[NewFlyer 230]

Don't some boroughs have more than 100 routes?

 

It could be problematic, particularly when certain routes numbers are more than just a number (the M86 runs on 86th St, the Q64 goes to 164th St and the Q65 runs on 164th St, etc.)

Non of the bouroughs have more than 100 routes some numbers are missed so it could work. Example in Queens half the 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's and the entire 90's is missing so if the number in the 100's and 110's were renumbered then there will be less than 100 routes.

[Gotham Bus Co.]

If and when the NYCT and MTAB merger is completed.  How should the Express Routes be unified. 

 

A - assume MTAB standards, (BM, QM, BxM, SM???) 

 

B - assume NYCT standards, (X) - There would have to be 3 digit X routes to fit all the MTAB routes into this standard. 

 

VOTE! 

 

 

Under Option "B," I would consolidate some numbers by using letter suffixes to distinguish Manhattan branches. For example, X27/37 would become X27 (all Manhattan stops), X27A (Midtown only), and X27B (Downtown only).  The X37 number would then become available for some other route, and 3-digit number might not be needed.

[bobtehpanda]

You know, years back, I had to have been about 13 or 14, I came up with a plan just like that. And I was bored that day, but took the time to write it down. I suggested Manhattan routes would be 1-99, The Bronx 100s, Brooklyn 200s, Queens 300s, S.I 400s and all express routes MTA and PBL 500s &

600s. Thinking that it would lead to a lot of confusion, I scrapped the idea. IDK...would something like that actually work in NYC???

 

I feel like the letters are an instantly recognizable way to know where a bus runs.

 

Keep in mind that some surrounding counties also use this system (Nassau with n, Suffolk with S, etc.), so any change here would affect more than just us.

[Vistausss]

It wouldn't affect other counties as they are free to do as they please. (btw, by your logic they would already be affected... look at SCT's S... Staten Island much?)

[bobtehpanda]

It wouldn't affect other counties as they are free to do as they please. (btw, by your logic they would already be affected... look at SCT's S... Staten Island much?)

 

If you are so lost that you wind up in Suffolk when you want to be in Staten Island, you probably shouldn't be taking public transport in the first place.

[Vistausss]

I'm not saying customers get confused, I'm just saying they chose the S just like for SI. That alone proves they are free to do what they want. If removes the B/Bx/S/Q from the panels, NICE and Suffolk will still keep on using the N and S.

[bobtehpanda]

I'm not saying customers get confused, I'm just saying they chose the S just like for SI. That alone proves they are free to do what they want. If removes the B/Bx/S/Q from the panels, NICE and Suffolk will still keep on using the N and S.

 

It's about consistent wayfinding. There is a reason why DOT and MTA have been standardizing the bus numbers to a BoroughXX format, why the Manhattan buses were renumbered to match with their streets, why we no longer have bus routes like the "Q5AB" - to maintain consistent, legible wayfinding. Everything in a certain local area has to be consistent or it gets confusing - when you go to any town, all the road signs, bus stops, road and map icons, etc. will look the same for that reason. If X was a SI only designator for buses, that'd be okay, but it's not; X and QM routes in Queens run on the same street, and appear to be part of a different system entirely, so that should be standardized. However, borough-designators to three-digit numbers would be too big of a change for the majority of riders to handle, and would cause mass confusion (as opposed to the amount of people using just express buses, which pales in comparison to overall bus rider numbers).

 

I'm also pretty sure that Suffolk originally had the S - Staten Island was R for Richmond County a couple decades back.

 

EDIT: We'd also start running into issues with other systems - doesn't NJT use three-digit-numbers, including on buses running to Manhattan?

[Vistausss]

Doesn't matter what NJT uses for buses running into Manhattan. If you board a NJT bus then you clearly know. It's hard to miss the big 'NJT' logo on their buses. If they don't see the difference then I can actually see them getting into trouble when in using an S bus in Suffolk lol ("hey, but aren't I in SI???)