Unification of Express Bus Designations

[Lennyj17]

If and when the NYCT and MTAB merger is completed.  How should the Express Routes be unified. 

 

A - assume MTAB standards, (BM, QM, BxM, SM???) 

 

B - assume NYCT standards, (X) - There would have to be 3 digit X routes to fit all the MTAB routes into this standard. 

 

VOTE! 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I think it should stay the way that it is.

[Lennyj17]

I disagree...Once the agencies are a single entity the express bus designations need to be streamlined and unified doesn't make sense for the unified "MTA NYCT" to be using both _M and X for Express Routes. 

 

Now if they do go with the NYCT standard of using "X" they could give each Borough its own group in a range of Number....

 

i.e. SI = X 1 - 19, Qns = X 20 - 39, BK = X 40 - 59, BX = X 60 - 79.....Something like that. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I disagree...Once the agencies are a single entity the express bus designations need to be streamlined and unified doesn't make sense for the unified "MTA NYCT" to be using both _M and X for Express Routes. 

 

Now if they do go with the NYCT standard of using "X" they could give each Borough its own group in a range of Number....

 

i.e. SI = X 1 - 19, Qns = X 20 - 39, BK = X 40 - 59, BX = X 60 - 79.....Something like that. 

Well I'm an express bus rider and have been riding for a good 7 years now, and I see absolutely nothing wrong with the currently set up.  X is for Staten Island and Brooklyn, QM for Queens, BxM for Bronx and Riverdale and BM is for Brooklyn. What's so hard about that?

[Eric B]

There was a plan to make them all DOT style (boro combinations), which made more sense to me. Helps indicate where it's going.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I'm still trying to figure out what's so confusing about the current set up? The only people that get "confused" are airhead tourists who want to get on just because they want to be obnoxious.  New Yorkers know an express bus from a local bus and the ones that don't 9 times out of 10 are just trying to be slick and get on just because.

[Lennyj17]

Well I'm an express bus rider and have been riding for a good 7 years now, and I see absolutely nothing wrong with the currently set up.  X is for Staten Island and Brooklyn, QM for Queens, BxM for Bronx and Riverdale and BM is for Brooklyn. What's so hard about that?

 

That both X and _M are used in both BK and Qns...NYCT has 3 X routes in Queens as well. It's called streamlining and being uniformed.

 

Just like MTA got rid of all of the PBL's Letter Suffixes (i.e Q19A, Q19B), just like they got rid of the QBx1 (i.e. Q50, Bx23) it didn't fit in with the formation of how the MTA designates routes. 

 

Once the merger is complete I have no doubt the MTA will do the same with the Express Routes, I just wanted to get everyone opinions on which Branding works best at Uniforming the Express Lines. 

There was a plan to make them all DOT style (boro combinations), which made more sense to me. Helps indicate where it's going.

 

I was leaning towards using the MTAB standard myself for just that reason. But X can work too again if each borough is grouped by a range of consecutive numbers. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

That both X and _M are used in both BK and Qns...NYCT has 3 X routes in Queens as well. It's called streamlining and being uniformed.

 

Just like MTA got rid of all of the PBL's Letter Suffixes (i.e Q19A, Q19B), just like they got rid of the QBx1 (i.e. Q50, Bx23) it didn't fit in with the formation of how the MTA designates routes. 

 

Once the merger is complete I have no doubt the MTA will do the same with the Express Routes, I just wanted to get everyone opinions on which Branding works best at Uniforming the Express Lines. 

The X's in Queens I simply forgot about but I've used two of them.  The express buses are already being streamlined by getting rid of the "A"s... Before you had the QM1 and the QM1A with several branches.  From that you now have the QM1, QM5, QM6, (Midtown variants) and the QM7 and QM8 (Downtown variants).  Same thing with the BxM4 and BxM4A (now defunct) and BxM7 and BxM7A which is now the BxM7 and BxM8.  The current set up is more marketable for us express bus riders, and that's what is important.  As an express bus rider, what I care about is knowing which express bus I need and when and the current set up is pretty clear and believe you me, I've used just about all of the express buses in the system, including defunct ones

(BM1, BM2, BM3, X1, X2, X7, X9, X10, X11, X12, X13, X14, X15, X16, X17C, X17J, X27, X28, X29, X30, X42, X64, X68, QM1, QM1A, QM5, QM6, BxM1, BxM2, BxM4, BxM10 and BxM18)

 

Constantly changing the routes is not good for those who are being targeted.  Perfect example is the X17.  X17J for New Jersey; X17C, everyone knows those do just about the entire route most of the time, the X17A is the Downtown variant along with the X19.

[Lennyj17]

Constantly changing the routes is not good for those who are being targeted.  Perfect example is the X17.  X17J for New Jersey; X17C, everyone knows those do just about the entire route most of the time, the X17A is the Downtown variant along with the X19.

 

You just made another case for using the MTAB standard IMO....It would be less of a change.... for SI all you'd need to do is change the X to SM, each express route can keep their number designation since it doesn't overlap.... X17 would simply become the SM17, whether you keep the A C J suffixes or give each branch its own number (as the MTA has been wanting to do) is another matter all together, but there's definitely room to do both under the SM branding. 

 

X27, 28, 37, 38 would simply change to BM27, 28, 37 and 38

 

X63, 64 and 68 just becomes QM 63 64 and 68

 

Easy Enough...

[Via Garibaldi 8]

You just made another case for using the MTAB standard IMO....It would be less of a change.... for SI all you'd need to do is change the X to SM, each express route can keep their number designation since it doesn't overlap.... X17 would simply become the SM17, whether you keep the A C J suffixes or give each branch its own number (as the MTA has been wanting to do) is another matter all together, but there's definitely room to do both under the SM branding. 

 

X27, 28, 37, 38 would simply change to BM27, 28, 37 and 38

 

X63, 64 and 68 just becomes QM 63 64 and 68

 

Easy Enough...

You still haven't explained why this would be necessary? Are you saying that people actually trying to use the express buses have problems figuring out which bus they need? Just because the wants to change it doesn't mean it's necessary.  What's important is that the people that use the express buses know which bus they need, and in the 7 years that I've been using express buses, I've never once been confused about which bus I needed.  The issue I have with the QM's has nothing to do with the prefix, but rather with the routing they take.

[Lennyj17]

You still haven't explained why this would be necessary? Are you saying that people actually trying to use the express buses have problems figuring out which bus they need? Just because the wants to change it doesn't mean it's necessary.  What's important is that the people that use the express buses know which bus they need, and in the 7 years that I've been using express buses, I've never once been confused about which bus I needed.  The issue I have with the QM's has nothing to do with the prefix, but rather with the routing they take.

 

It's not a question of Necessity....It fits the pattern of what the MTA has been doing since the take over of the PBL's.

 

Again once everything is merged I have no doubt the MTA will streamline the Express Bus Designation into a Uniform. My question isn't if they should do it, my question is "WHEN" they do it, which branding works best.   

[Via Garibaldi 8]

It's not a question of Necessity....It fits the pattern of what the MTA has been doing since the take over of the PBL's.

 

Again once everything is merged I have no doubt the MTA will streamline the Express Bus Designation into a Uniform. My question isn't if they should do it, my question is "WHEN" they do it, which branding works best.   

I see... Well then in that case I don't have anything to add, so I think the current system works best.

[aemoreira81]

Unification. I would allocate X routes as follows:

 

SI: 1 - 29 (three routes would have to be renumbered)

Bk: 30-49

Bx: 40-59

Q: 60-89

[Rick44]

Unification using the _M system. It's costs more to change everything to the X system, but they should do some kind of uniformity.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

How much would all of this renumbering/uniformity nonsense cost anyway? That could be used to improve express bus service rather than for something that is non essential "just because". 

[Lennyj17]

How much would all of this renumbering/uniformity nonsense cost anyway? That could be used to improve express bus service rather than for something that is non essential "just because". 

 

I get that you hate change...

 

But it does make perfect sense for the MTA to want to do this.....What other reason do you have to keep the express buses from having a Uniformed branding other than "Well its always worked this way" The QBX1 always worked fine the way it was too....I had no problem differentiating between Q19, Q19A, Q19B, Q65 and Q65A...

 

Yet the MTA saw a purpose of "Wasting Money" to Uniform these routes into how designation are assigned. 

 

If I'm someone new to NYC and I live somewhere in Queens where I have the X63 and QM21 as options. I will be confused as to what is the difference in express options that they have different prefixes. It wouldn't make sense to me. Forget the whole NYCT vs MTAB, outside of us transit insiders  its all one agency to the rest of the public so why isn't things uniformed? 

[RookiePhenom]

I'm still trying to figure out what's so confusing about the current set up? The only people that get "confused" are airhead tourists who want to get on just because they want to be obnoxious.  New Yorkers know an express bus from a local bus and the ones that don't 9 times out of 10 are just trying to be slick and get on just because.

 

In fairness, attempting to take the X17 back into Manhattan wasn't that difficult, but as this tourist who uses it, some uniformity would be prudent in making sure you know where the heck you're going. 

 

Not everyone is a hardcore express bus user, and they're not bus nuts like the lot of us. 

 

However, I will say that only Staten Island should keep the 'X' designation, but the other boroughs should be assigned the _M designation.

[QM1to6Ave]

You just made another case for using the MTAB standard IMO....It would be less of a change.... for SI all you'd need to do is change the X to SM, each express route can keep their number designation since it doesn't overlap.... X17 would simply become the SM17, whether you keep the A C J suffixes or give each branch its own number (as the MTA has been wanting to do) is another matter all together, but there's definitely room to do both under the SM branding. 

 

X27, 28, 37, 38 would simply change to BM27, 28, 37 and 38

 

X63, 64 and 68 just becomes QM 63 64 and 68

 

Easy Enough...

 

I suspect they would avoid using SM since it sounds kind of like the common acronym for sadomasochism.

 

I think the QM/BxM/BM designations most the make sense. I jsut dislike that there are locals, like the Q44, that actually have a significant portion of their route in another borough. I wish there was a way to designate that fact without it sounding like an express bus.  

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I get that you hate change...

 

But it does make perfect sense for the MTA to want to do this.....What other reason do you have to keep the express buses from having a Uniformed branding other than "Well its always worked this way" The QBX1 always worked fine the way it was too....I had no problem differentiating between Q19, Q19A, Q19B, Q65 and Q65A...

 

Yet the MTA saw a purpose of "Wasting Money" to Uniform these routes into how designation are assigned. 

 

If I'm someone new to NYC and I live somewhere in Queens where I have the X63 and QM21 as options. I will be confused as to what is the difference in express options that they have different prefixes. It wouldn't make sense to me. Forget the whole NYCT vs MTAB, outside of us transit insiders  its all one agency to the rest of the public so why isn't things uniformed? 

No, I don't hate change. I just think it's ridiculous to change something that currently works and waste money.  It isn't rocket science.  You live in a neighborhood that you're new to and you want to know which express bus runs in your neighborhood?  Do a Google search and find out! Takes less than 5 minutes.  You're making it sound like it's so difficult to figure out when it isn't at all.  People mistakenly take the wrong local bus a lot and they're all "uniform" just the way you like them and you know why? Because they don't take the time to read! Wasting money to try to help people who are simply lazy is just a total waste of time and money.  When they do decide to make it nice and uniform, you'll still have people say that they're confused so they're damned if they do and damned if they don't.

 

In fairness, attempting to take the X17 back into Manhattan wasn't that difficult, but as this tourist who uses it, some uniformity would be prudent in making sure you know where the heck you're going. 

 

Not everyone is a hardcore express bus user, and they're not bus nuts like the lot of us. 

 

However, I will say that only Staten Island should keep the 'X' designation, but the other boroughs should be assigned the _M designation.

It has nothing to do with being a hardcore express bus user.  When I moved to Riverdale, I knew there were express buses, but I didn't where they went specifically, so I had to check and see because most express bus riders just use the lines that they live near.  How long did that take? A few minutes on line, something you would have to do regardless of what designation was used.  Argue the sake of uniformity just to make things "neat" for everyone. Okay fine, but to argue that it's so difficult to figure out.  That's just a joke.  

 

 

I suspect they would avoid using SM since it sounds kind of like the common acronym for sadomasochism.

 

I think the QM/BxM/BM designations most the make sense. I jsut dislike that there are locals, like the Q44, that actually have a significant portion of their route in another borough. I wish there was a way to designate that fact without it sounding like an express bus.  

That's precisely my point. When does it end? I mean you can only make it so clear for people.  It's almost as if there is no destination signage, with these routes just the designation and route number.

[Lennyj17]

No, I don't hate change. I just think it's ridiculous to change something that currently works and waste money.  It isn't rocket science.  You live in a neighborhood that you're new to and you want to know which express bus runs in your neighborhood?  Do a Google search and find out! Takes less than 5 minutes.  You're making it sound like it's so difficult to figure out when it isn't at all.  People mistakenly take the wrong local bus a lot and they're all "uniform" just the way you like them and you know why? Because they don't take the time to read! Wasting money to try to help people who are simply lazy is just a total waste of time and money.  When they do decide to make it nice and uniform, you'll still have people say that they're confused so they're damned if they do and damned if they don't.

 

 

But having uniform system works easier and is easier to understand....How do you explain the difference between a QM route and an X route express buses that have common routing like the QM21 and X63... I can see someone asking what's the difference. If its Uniformed less chance of Confusion...Regardless if "It works now" that's you, not everyone else, and not for people new to the system. 

 

I think just like the Locals, Express Routes should and need to be uniformed under a single brand....Doesn't really matter which...either "X" or _M but yes make it Uniformed. Express Routes are no different from Locals that they should keep unique brands from past agencies that will no longer exists. 

[Vistausss]

I wonder why no one has thought of a combination yet.

 

XQM, XBM, XSM, XBxM, etc.

 

It still indicates the boroughs it goes through but it does add the X suffix to indicate that it's an express bus.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

But having uniform system works easier and is easier to understand....How do you explain the difference between a QM route and an X route express buses that have common routing like the QM21 and X63... I can see someone asking what's the difference. If its Uniformed less chance of Confusion...Regardless if "It works now" that's you, not everyone else, and not for people new to the system. 

Is that right? Then how do you explain people being confused with the current uniform local bus system?  

 

When I'm on Staten Island and I go to an X1 bus stop and the bus hasn't come yet, we all ask are you waiting for the "1"? When I go to a bus stop in Riverdale and wait for the BxM1, we all ask are you waiting for the "1"?  Do you see a pattern here?  No one gives a crap about the prefix because it makes no difference.  The only thing that people get confused about 9 times out 10 is does this bus go to such and such place?  That's what I hear the most and that's because they don't look at the timetables located right at the bus stop.  

 

The thing that the tourists do has nothing to do with a prefix, so you could make it as uniform as you want and it wouldn't matter.  They just see a bus and think they can get on ANY bus be it an express bus or a local bus.  They don't know the difference and they don't even look.  They just try to get on and start asking where such and such bus goes.

 

 

I wonder why no one has thought of a combination yet.

 

XQM, XBM, XSM, XBxM, etc.

 

It still indicates the boroughs it goes through but it does add the X suffix to indicate that it's an express bus.

That's ridiculously long and takes up for too much space on the display screen plus the destination has to be included.

[Lennyj17]

Is that right? Then how do you explain people being confused with the current uniform local bus system?  

 

When I'm on Staten Island and I go to an X1 bus stop and the bus hasn't come yet, we all ask are you waiting for the "1"? When I go to a bus stop in Riverdale and wait for the BxM1, we all ask are you waiting for the "1"?  Do you see a pattern here?  No one gives a crap about the prefix because it makes no difference.  The only thing that people get confused about 9 times out 10 is does this bus go to such and such place?  That's what I hear the most and that's because they don't look at the timetables located right at the bus stop.  

 

The thing that the tourists do has nothing to do with a prefix, so you could make it as uniform as you want and it wouldn't matter.  They just see a bus and think they can get on ANY bus be it an express bus or a local bus.  They don't know the difference and they don't even look.  They just try to get on and start asking where such and such bus goes.

 

 

So what the problem if its X1 or SM1....It's would still be the "1"....By the way there are parts of the city that don't use the Destination at all, they just say "The Express" or "The Express Bus". The PBL's lasted eon's with QM1 and QM1A, BxM7, 7A and 7B...Obviously people didn't have problem with it...Yet the MTA changed it anyway...WHY! Because the MTA like things to be Uniformed! And I can't blame them for that. 

 

All that said you still can't tell me WHY they shouldn't be uniformed, where's the harm in uniforming the system?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

So what the problem if its X1 or SM1....It's would still be the "1"....By the way there are parts of the city that don't use the Destination at all, they just say "The Express" or "The Express Bus". The PBL's lasted eon's with QM1 and QM1A, BxM7, 7A and 7B...Obviously people didn't have problem with it...Yet the MTA changed it anyway...WHY! Because the MTA like things to be Uniformed! And I can't blame them for that. 

 

All that said you still can't tell me WHY they shouldn't be uniformed, where's the harm in uniforming the system?

#1 Because the current system works just fine!  Do you even use express buses?  I do daily and I see firsthand the problems and the prefix is certainly not an issue.

 

#2 You seem to be implying that making the system uniform will actually make things clearer when in fact the local buses are uniform and the riders still act confused, so I don't see the point in wasting money to make things uniform and "clearer" if the same problems will still exist. Now the QM1A set up for example WAS a good change to make that QM1, QM5, QM6, QM7 and QM8 and break them up into branches to make things clearer and also to get a true feel of ridership on each route.  

 

Could you make the prefixes uniform?  Sure, but it would be just for the hell of it and a complete waste of money. If it didn't cost anything I wouldn't care, but wasting money on something that won't help riders to me is inexcusable.  The money would be better used on increasing service.  The majority of express bus riders use the lines on a daily basis with a small amount of riders being non regulars and I do mean small.  By regulars that includes people that just use the express bus on occasion.  

[bobtehpanda]

Could you make the prefixes uniform?  Sure, but it would be just for the hell of it and a complete waste of money. If it didn't cost anything I wouldn't care, but wasting money on something that won't help riders to me is inexcusable.  The money would be better used on increasing service.  The majority of express bus riders use the lines on a daily basis with a small amount of riders being non regulars and I do mean small.  By regulars that includes people that just use the express bus on occasion.  

 

And what if the MTA should ever decide that it wants to *gasp* lure new riders to express bus routes? The amount of money it costs to implement these changes is not very large - signs need replacing every now and then, and in any case that's a DOT perogative. You'd have to redo maps and schedules, but this literally consists of editing text boxes.

 

That being said, I would prefer a "QX", "BX", "BxX", "SX" designation, because it's very intuitive (and let's be frank, SM is just a very bad designation for a bus route to have). The problem with grouping by numbers in X is the very real possibility of overlapping service numbers - look at what happened with the S42 and X42.