Department of Subways - Proposals/Ideas

[Theli11]

12 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

Jackson Heights is better because it has so many transfers. Anyone using a circumferential is most likely changing trains at both ends, so you want to make the transfers as convenient as possible. Having direct connections to the  is better than having direct connections to the since the and serve unique destinations from their local. Otherwise everyone coming from Jamaica who wants to go to, say, Nostrand and Church, is now making a four-seat ride on the new crosstowns or they're transferring in the city with one transfer; direct connections would reduce that to three and make it more palatable.

Jackson Heights has way too many people going through and is going to be super super crowded with this new line in the complex. If we created another express stop (Woodhaven Blvd), Then there can be a connection between QBL express, the super express and the crosstown connector. Then, connect it to the  via Junction Blvd. Another issue would be that 74 - Broadway is a local station on Roosevelt, and that platform wouldn't be able to handle all the extra people. Moving it to Woodhaven would help both and alleviate service from there, and connect to the Super Express. 

[bobtehpanda]

23 minutes ago, Theli11 said:

Jackson Heights has way too many people going through and is going to be super super crowded with this new line in the complex. If we created another express stop (Woodhaven Blvd), Then there can be a connection between QBL express, the super express and the crosstown connector. Then, connect it to the  via Junction Blvd. Another issue would be that 74 - Broadway is a local station on Roosevelt, and that platform wouldn't be able to handle all the extra people. Moving it to Woodhaven would help both and alleviate service from there, and connect to the Super Express. 

Crosstown demand is high but not that high. If we felt so strongly about it there are multiple ways to fix the issue, like a Woodhaven express stop (the crosstown still stops at Jackson Heights). Or we rebuild Jackson Heights in the manner of 34-Penn station without cross-platform transfer and convert, I don't know, Northern Blvd into an express stop as well.

The problem with Woodhaven is what's a nice path to get from Broadway Junction to Woodhaven and Queens Blvd that is easy to build and isn't duplicative or overly windy? The current proposed alignment is as cheap as it gets along an existing rail right of way and a highway.

[Theli11]

21 hours ago, Armandito said:

It was me who posted a Northern Boulevard crosstown route under the designation via Google Maps last month, but deleted it afterwards. While I do agree that this corridor is great for a new subway line to alleviate pressure on the , 50th Street doesn't sit well with me because of the corridor's status as a mostly local-only street, a drawback which could inconvenience some riders transferring to north-south services in Manhattan. Rockefeller Center on Sixth Avenue is pretty much the only express station serving 50th Street.

50th St is a good corridor because it'll move people towards  at 50th,   at 49 St,  at 50th, and  at 51 St. they're not all express stops but it'll alleviate both on 53, and on 42. The crowding on both trains is crazy high. 

[mrsman]

25 minutes ago, Theli11 said:

50th St is a good corridor because it'll move people towards  at 50th,   at 49 St,  at 50th, and  at 51 St. they're not all express stops but it'll alleviate both on 53, and on 42. The crowding on both trains is crazy high. 

I think part of the idea is that this is a Queens line to 50th, so most of the passengers are destined for Midtown and a transfer to a local on a trunk line would be enough as few people would need to go any further south than 23rd.

[Theli11]

1 hour ago, bobtehpanda said:

Crosstown demand is high but not that high. If we felt so strongly about it there are multiple ways to fix the issue, like a Woodhaven express stop (the crosstown still stops at Jackson Heights). Or we rebuild Jackson Heights in the manner of 34-Penn station without cross-platform transfer and convert, I don't know, Northern Blvd into an express stop as well.

The problem with Woodhaven is what's a nice path to get from Broadway Junction to Woodhaven and Queens Blvd that is easy to build and isn't duplicative or overly windy? The current proposed alignment is as cheap as it gets along an existing rail right of way and a highway.

Why not, After Myrtle Av, turn on Eliot until Woodhaven, then turn on 59 St and Junction Blvd until LaGuardia.

I don't want to add on to Jackson Heights crowding, because it can get really bad. Specifically the riders transfer to , and riders transferring to express service. and riders transferring to local service. now you're adding transfers to Crosstown,  to Crosstown, Crosstown to , and Crosstown to . 

[Armandito]

Eliminated the Brighton extension of the X train. Better? https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=13I9vecZGJDpc7SIpyjtbMZdPGwJW3OaY&ll=40.717339572080135%2C-73.91711000000002&z=12

Approximate fleet size: 13 trains (same as )

Planned frequencies in minutes:

AM rush: 10

Middays: 10

PM rush: 10

Evenings: 10-12

Weekends: 10-12

Late nights: 20

 

[Theli11]

11 minutes ago, Armandito said:

Eliminated the Brighton extension of the X train. Better? https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=13I9vecZGJDpc7SIpyjtbMZdPGwJW3OaY&ll=40.717339572080135%2C-73.91711000000002&z=12

Approximate fleet size: 13 trains (same as )

Planned frequencies in minutes:

AM rush: 10

Middays: 10

PM rush: 10

Evenings: 10-12

Weekends: 10-12

Late nights: 20

Your frequencies makes it easier for it to use only one track for Franklin. I'm also thinking about the fact that the (X) doesn't really go anywhere for traveling connections. It misses Atlantic, doesn't go to Midtown.. You should make it end at Astoria, then put the  to LaGuardia Airport. trains that go to 4th Av, should also be the ones that go to LGA.

Edited September 28, 2020 by Theli11

[bobtehpanda]

31 minutes ago, Theli11 said:

Your frequencies makes it easier for it to use only one track for Franklin. I'm also thinking about the fact that the (X) doesn't really go anywhere for traveling connections. It misses Atlantic, doesn't go to Midtown.. You should make it end at Astoria, then put the  to LaGuardia Airport. trains that go to 4th Av, should also be the ones that go to LGA.

You still.need double track for anything better than 15 minutes, and I don't trust the MTA to run single-track every 15 minutes well.

[Armandito]

27 minutes ago, Theli11 said:

Your frequencies makes it easier for it to use only one track for Franklin. I'm also thinking about the fact that the (X) doesn't really go anywhere for traveling connections. It misses Atlantic, doesn't go to Midtown.. You should make it end at Astoria, then put the  to LaGuardia Airport. trains that go to 4th Av, should also be the ones that go to LGA.

But it does connect to various subway lines serving Manhattan:

at Astoria Blvd

at 40 Av

at Court Sq-44 Dr

at Metropolitan Av

(I haven't included transfer points further south because they're too far)

LIRR customers can use the Q70 bus at Woodside to get to the airport.

[Armandito]

1 minute ago, bobtehpanda said:

You still.need double track for anything better than 15 minutes, and I don't trust the MTA to run single-track every 15 minutes well.

Note that the at Whitehall only uses one track, and that train already operates at approximately every 10-12 minutes on weekdays.

[Theli11]

2 minutes ago, Armandito said:

But it does connect to various subway lines serving Manhattan:

at Astoria Blvd

at 40 Av

at Court Sq-44 Dr

at Metropolitan Av

(I haven't included transfer points further south because they're too far)

LIRR customers can use the Q70 bus at Woodside to get to the airport.

Yeah but who wants to transfer with bags? and  makes it so much easier because it goes through midtown. The (X) forces a transfer to another train before getting to any Metro North, LIRR, NJT etc.

[Theli11]

5 minutes ago, bobtehpanda said:

You still.need double track for anything better than 15 minutes, and I don't trust the MTA to run single-track every 15 minutes well.

I really meant for just the terminal, and to have a double track from Botanical Garden to Franklin* 

[bobtehpanda]

Just now, Theli11 said:

I really meant for just the terminal, and to have a double track from Botanical Garden to Franklin* 

A line should be fully double tracked (other than terminals) in a rapid transit context.

[Theli11]

1 minute ago, bobtehpanda said:

A line should be fully double tracked (other than terminals) in a rapid transit context.

Yeah that's what I meant, sorry if it wasn't clear. Franklin should be the ONLY single tracked protion.

[Armandito]

2 minutes ago, bobtehpanda said:

A line should be fully double tracked (other than terminals) in a rapid transit context.

This is how I made the track map for the Franklin connection:

[Armandito]

2 hours ago, Theli11 said:

Yeah but who wants to transfer with bags? and  makes it so much easier because it goes through midtown. The (X) forces a transfer to another train before getting to any Metro North, LIRR, NJT etc.

Included in my LaGuardia subway proposal is a connection to the 63rd Street Line for a potential SAS service to Manhattan and possibly Brooklyn (via Fulton Street Local). Note that this would require relocating the Queensbridge station to the other side of 21st Street:

Edited September 28, 2020 by Armandito

[LGA Link N Train]

4 minutes ago, Armandito said:

Included in my LaGuardia subway proposal is a connection to the 63rd Street Line for a potential SAS service to Manhattan and possibly Brooklyn (via Fulton Street Local). Note that this would require relocating the Queensbridge station to the other side of 21st Street:

I gotta say, your (X) proposal is pretty iteresting, however I do have to agree with eveyone else here that sending the  and  to LaGuardia is a better option. Also coming to think of it, is it even possible to even get the Crosstow Line past 41st Avenue? I ask that because of the LIRR Tunnels for East SIde Access that are right beneath the . I don't really know how deep they are. 

[Armandito]

4 minutes ago, LaGuardia Link N Tra said:

I gotta say, your (X) proposal is pretty iteresting, however I do have to agree with eveyone else here that sending the  and  to LaGuardia is a better option. Also coming to think of it, is it even possible to even get the Crosstow Line past 41st Avenue? I ask that because of the LIRR Tunnels for East SIde Access that are right beneath the . I don't really know how deep they are. 

I would have the line under 21st Street go above the tunnel and relocate the current station to the other side of the corridor. One reason why I'm not so cool on an extension to LGA is because there was immense community opposition against this proposal when the first envisioned it in 1999. When it comes to building a new el in any neighborhood these days, it's guaranteed to get struck down by NIMBYs, believe it or not.

[Infamous85]

Would there be any material benefit to bringing the IRT to BMT/IND specs? This would obviously rank very low on the long list of expansions/improvements that need to happen first, it could be something that’s completed over time rather than all at once.

Any necessary modifications for the slightly larger and potentially heavier future BMT/IND trains would be factored into any major work undertaken along these lines in the future, alterations to the station platforms would come last and should be a relatively easy. I imagine this would all be easiest to do on the  since it’s all by itself, the others might be more difficult.

Edited September 28, 2020 by Infamous85

[Theli11]

3 minutes ago, Armandito said:

I would have the line under 21st Street go above the tunnel and relocate the current station to the other side of the corridor. One reason why I'm not so cool on an extension to LGA is because there was immense community opposition against this proposal when the first envisioned it in 1999. When it comes to building a new el in any neighborhood these days, it's guaranteed to get struck down by NIMBYs, believe it or not.

Why not turn the right BEFORE Astoria Blvd, then the can go through a portal and along the same route you have. I think another alternative would be the SAS going there via Northern or removing the  from QBL and moving to Northern that way you'll have the to Flushing via Northern, and  / SAS to LaGuardia via Northern.

[bobtehpanda]

4 minutes ago, Infamous85 said:

Would there be any material benefit to bringing the IRT to BMT/IND specs? This would obviously rank very low on the long list of expansions/improvements that need to happen first, it could be something that’s completed over time rather than all at once.

Any necessary modifications for the slightly larger and potentially heavier future BMT/IND trains would be factored into any major work undertaken along these lines in the future, alterations to the station platforms would come last and should be a relatively easy. I imagine this would all be easiest to do on the  since it’s all by itself, the others might be more difficult.

The 7 would actually probably be the hardest.

The Steinway tunnels were already shaved back when they switched from streetcar to IRT operation. You're going to need to build new tubes for a B Division service.

[Theli11]

Just now, Infamous85 said:

Would there be any material benefit to bringing the IRT to BMT/IND specs? I imagine this would be easiest to do on the since it’s all by itself, the others might be difficult.

This would obviously rank very low on the long list of expansions/improvements that need to happen first, it could be something that’s completed over time rather than all at once. Any necessary modifications for the slightly larger and potentially heavier future BMT/IND trains would be factored into any major work undertaken along these lines in the future, alterations to the station platforms would come last and should be a relatively easy.

Benefits? Sure, but it's better that it's self contained and separate from the B-Division. It's just not a good idea because you'd have to make all the tunnels wider, widen the platforms, it'll be a mess and is like very low and not even necessary. 

[Infamous85]

7 minutes ago, bobtehpanda said:

The 7 would actually probably be the hardest.

The Steinway tunnels were already shaved back when they switched from streetcar to IRT operation. You're going to need to build new tubes for a B Division service.

That’s interesting. So it doesn’t seem worth it at all, barring some sort of emergency that required some sections of these lines to be almost wholly rebuilt/repaired.

6 minutes ago, Theli11 said:

Benefits? Sure, but it's better that it's self contained and separate from the B-Division. It's just not a good idea because you'd have to make all the tunnels wider, widen the platforms, it'll be a mess and is like very low and not even necessary. 

Yeah I was thinking in terms of capacity improvements way into the future, but it seems like it’d be more trouble than it’s worth.

[Armandito]

After noticing a lot of support for a Northern Boulevard/50th Street subway, these are the stations I plan to include for the route:

Queens:

Bayside-Bell Blvd* (LIRR at Bayside)

Auburndale-192 St* (LIRR at Auburndale)

Murray Hill-162 St (LIRR at Broadway)

154 St

147 St

Main-Union Sts

Mets-Willets Point (at Seaver Way between 126th and 127th Streets)

108 St

Junction Blvd

83 St

73 St

54 St-Broadway

43 St

36 St

Queens Plaza (lower level)

Court Sq-23 St (at 45th Avenue and 23rd Street)

Manhattan:

Lexington Av-50 St

6 Av-Rockefeller Center  ( via transfer passageway to Seventh Avenue)

8 Av

42 St-11 Av

34 St-Hudson Yards (lower level)

*Stations with an asterisk not finalized in my proposal yet

(Route and track maps will come later)

[engineerboy6561]

2 hours ago, Theli11 said:

Why not turn the right BEFORE Astoria Blvd, then the can go through a portal and along the same route you have. I think another alternative would be the SAS going there via Northern or removing the  from QBL and moving to Northern that way you'll have the to Flushing via Northern, and  / SAS to LaGuardia via Northern.

Running Northern off SAS is my preferred alternative, mostly because it fills a serious gap in Northeastern Queens service and sets the Second Avenue corridor up with multiple feeders. You could extend SAS north along 3 Av in the Bronx and east along Northern at least to Flushing (though I'd recommend continuing it out to Bell Blvd to take a load off the Q12/Q13 and spur development along Northern Blvd); if you wanted to extend the  along that way I'd like the Northern Blvd segment to be four tracks and the  used to provide local service as far as Flushing with services into Manhattan providing supplementary local and express service (especially to reduce travel time for people coming from beyond Flushing). 

My old 2 Av system map that covers a plan similar to this is at https://www.google.com/maps/d/view?mid=1Sgq--JwpB1No7avLLLVpK-bsAtq4z9Is&usp=sharing , and there would be room for the  along Northern Blvd in that plan. You'd need to add a flying junction off the current  tracks north of Court Sq, drop below the four-track trunk leading into Queens Plaza, and run under Crescent St before curving east onto 36 Av; you could add a G station under QBP to create a QP/QBP transfer complex. If you wanted to run 50 St crosstown as well you could turn off under 47 Av in Queens and connect the 50 St crosstown there. That plan would leave room for 30tph SAS to Flushing/Bayside, 15tph , and 15tph 50 St to Flushing/Bayside. In that scenario the easiest (read: least interlining) way to do it would be to run the SAS trains express and the /50 St trains local. If you figure you'd need more trains to 50 St then you could keep the  topped out around 10tph and run 20tph through 50 St.

As far as pulling the  off QBL there wouldn't be room if you wanted the  and the 50 St crosstown running to Flushing and you tied Northern to SAS. In that case I'd probably recommend tying SAS to a new corridor along Astoria Blvd and then leaving the  and the 50 St crosstown to split a four-track line, figuring out local and express in that case would be interesting. You could run the 50 St trains and the  local and run the  express (figuring that the  has the longest run of the three lines and would benefit the most from the runtime reduction, or you could run the 50 St tracks separate from the  tracks until the start of the four-track portion of the corridor and run a 50/50 local/express split for crosstown trains; that would get you 25-30tph on 50 St and leave 15tph each for the  and .

Edited September 28, 2020 by engineerboy6561