Department of Subways - Proposals/Ideas

[Reptile]

14 hours ago, Armandito said:

After noticing a lot of support for a Northern Boulevard/50th Street subway, these are the stations I plan to include for the route:

Queens:

Bayside-Bell Blvd* (LIRR at Bayside)

Auburndale-192 St* (LIRR at Auburndale)

Murray Hill-162 St (LIRR at Broadway)

154 St

147 St

Main-Union Sts

Mets-Willets Point (at Seaver Way between 126th and 127th Streets)

108 St

Junction Blvd

83 St

73 St

54 St-Broadway

43 St

36 St

Queens Plaza (lower level)

Court Sq-23 St (at 45th Avenue and 23rd Street)

Manhattan:

Lexington Av-50 St

6 Av-Rockefeller Center  ( via transfer passageway to Seventh Avenue)

8 Av

42 St-11 Av

34 St-Hudson Yards (lower level)

*Stations with an asterisk not finalized in my proposal yet

(Route and track maps will come later)

Maybe it should be an extension for the . I don't think it would be that long of a line compared to lines like and .

[Theli11]

20 minutes ago, Reptile said:

Maybe it should be an extension for the . I don't think it would be that long of a line compared to lines like and .

I don't think that the extension should be for the  it'll make any train too long. It's just the stations for the entire line. Personally I think it should go *up* to 72 St, but it might need that connection to the . (Could be a split route thing, and send the to 72 along with 50% of trains to 72, and the other half to the .)

[Bklyn Bound 2 Local]

1 hour ago, Reptile said:

6 Av-Rockefeller Center  ( via transfer passageway to Seventh Avenue)

I think there should be a transfer between the  and  right now, either via a passageway or a walking transfer

Edited September 29, 2020 by Bklyn Bound 2 Local

[Theli11]

8 minutes ago, Bklyn Bound 2 Local said:

I think there should be a transfer between the  and  right now, either via a passageway or a walking transfer

why not just put a train stop on Broadway, that way you'll get Rockefeller, Broadway and 7th Aves. There doesn't need to be a transfer because Times Square already provides that transfer between all trains. But when 50th comes around it'll be worth the investment for alleviation.

[Theli11]

17 hours ago, engineerboy6561 said:

Running Northern off SAS is my preferred alternative, mostly because it fills a serious gap in Northeastern Queens service and sets the Second Avenue corridor up with multiple feeders. You could extend SAS north along 3 Av in the Bronx and east along Northern at least to Flushing (though I'd recommend continuing it out to Bell Blvd to take a load off the Q12/Q13 and spur development along Northern Blvd); if you wanted to extend the  along that way I'd like the Northern Blvd segment to be four tracks and the  used to provide local service as far as Flushing with services into Manhattan providing supplementary local and express service (especially to reduce travel time for people coming from beyond Flushing). 

My old 2 Av system map that covers a plan similar to this is at https://www.google.com/maps/d/view?mid=1Sgq--JwpB1No7avLLLVpK-bsAtq4z9Is&usp=sharing , and there would be room for the  along Northern Blvd in that plan. You'd need to add a flying junction off the current  tracks north of Court Sq, drop below the four-track trunk leading into Queens Plaza, and run under Crescent St before curving east onto 36 Av; you could add a G station under QBP to create a QP/QBP transfer complex. If you wanted to run 50 St crosstown as well you could turn off under 47 Av in Queens and connect the 50 St crosstown there. That plan would leave room for 30tph SAS to Flushing/Bayside, 15tph , and 15tph 50 St to Flushing/Bayside. In that scenario the easiest (read: least interlining) way to do it would be to run the SAS trains express and the /50 St trains local. If you figure you'd need more trains to 50 St then you could keep the  topped out around 10tph and run 20tph through 50 St.

As far as pulling the  off QBL there wouldn't be room if you wanted the  and the 50 St crosstown running to Flushing and you tied Northern to SAS. In that case I'd probably recommend tying SAS to a new corridor along Astoria Blvd and then leaving the  and the 50 St crosstown to split a four-track line, figuring out local and express in that case would be interesting. You could run the 50 St trains and the  local and run the  express (figuring that the  has the longest run of the three lines and would benefit the most from the runtime reduction, or you could run the 50 St tracks separate from the  tracks until the start of the four-track portion of the corridor and run a 50/50 local/express split for crosstown trains; that would get you 25-30tph on 50 St and leave 15tph each for the  and .

The isn't as necessary as putting a Manhattan line on there. A real purpose for that is to have a train that connects LaGuardia [It could be the and branch off at Junction Blvd], and a train that relieves the  and goes to Midtown [The on 50th Street would be a good choice]. the can go on the route Weekdays and Weekends only as the express, while the other crosstown train  can go on 21 St (or use a connection to the 50th St tunnel to go to 72 St - Broadway.) 

[Armandito]

Thoughts? https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=1xxOviuFLs1P8LiFK-DurKk2yPp54nKbV&ll=40.75917812494056%2C-73.9353563574515&z=13

[Theli11]

2 hours ago, Armandito said:

Thoughts? https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=1xxOviuFLs1P8LiFK-DurKk2yPp54nKbV&ll=40.75917812494056%2C-73.9353563574515&z=13

Pretty much what I wanted it to be.

[EvilMonologue]

4 hours ago, Armandito said:

Thoughts? https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=1xxOviuFLs1P8LiFK-DurKk2yPp54nKbV&ll=40.75917812494056%2C-73.9353563574515&z=13

I'd add a stop where the Triboro Line would intersect with Northern Blvd, so that would mean either adding a stop by the BQE or moving the one at 73rd St. Also, for the stops in Manhattan, sending the line down 11th Av and either above or below the  would be complex and expensive, so I might have a terminal, at least for the time being, at 10th Av. Also it's worth considering having the stop on Broadway instead of 8th Av, connecting the  with  trains instead of with the , just because they are spaced closer together, though I understand the logic of doing it as you've done. Just my two cents.

[Theli11]

4 hours ago, EvilMonologue said:

I'd add a stop where the Triboro Line would intersect with Northern Blvd, so that would mean either adding a stop by the BQE or moving the one at 73rd St. Also, for the stops in Manhattan, sending the line down 11th Av and either above or below the  would be complex and expensive, so I might have a terminal, at least for the time being, at 10th Av. Also it's worth considering having the stop on Broadway instead of 8th Av, connecting the  with  trains instead of with the , just because they are spaced closer together, though I understand the logic of doing it as you've done. Just my two cents.

Are they still doing the Triboro line? The intersection would be at 63 St/BQE. I think splitting the line (half 72-Amsterdam, half 42-10th Av.) would be better (doing the 72-Amsterdam first, and 10th Av second, combining that with the  on 10th Av, having some trains short turn at 8th - 14 St with a middle track between 10th and 8th. 

[bobtehpanda]

13 hours ago, Armandito said:

Thoughts? https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=1xxOviuFLs1P8LiFK-DurKk2yPp54nKbV&ll=40.75917812494056%2C-73.9353563574515&z=13

I don't think constructing this somehow under the EF express tracks is going to be very easy.

[Armandito]

3 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

I don't think constructing this somehow under the EF express tracks is going to be very easy.

I plan to build the tracks at the same level as the express tracks along Northern Boulevard between 36th Street and Broadway; I'll post track maps soon.

[Theli11]

4 hours ago, Armandito said:

I plan to build the tracks at the same level as the express tracks along Northern Boulevard between 36th Street and Broadway; I'll post track maps soon.

I think they meant in general, you'll have to build the Northern Line below the and because the and run along Northern. 

Edited September 30, 2020 by Theli11

[Armandito]

Thoughts?

[Kharn501]

As someone who used to live on Northern Blvd that subway would be a godsend as I hated having to walk south to reach my station. Has the MTA ever had discussions/plans on paper in the past to put a subway on Northern just out of curiosity? 

Wouldn't it be better to terminate it at LGA, making it a true "air train", and just expand the 7 to serve bayside on the other hand?

 

 

[Armandito]

54 minutes ago, Kharn501 said:

As someone who used to live on Northern Blvd that subway would be a godsend as I hated having to walk south to reach my station. Has the MTA ever had discussions/plans on paper in the past to put a subway on Northern just out of curiosity? 

Wouldn't it be better to terminate it at LGA, making it a true "air train", and just expand the 7 to serve bayside on the other hand?

 

 

It's too late to extend the past Main Street; the stubs that would've been used for such an extension are now blocked by a new entrance that got built when the station was renovated in the mid-1990s. Gotta admit that it would've been much, much better if a Northern Boulevard subway was included in the blueprints for the original IND subway of the 1930s. Feels puzzling that a Concourse Line parallel to the on Jerome was included but not an adjacent line to the , especially taking into account that some parts of the original IND are overbuilt.

Edited September 30, 2020 by Armandito

[Deucey]

2 minutes ago, Armandito said:

Feels puzzling that a Concourse Line parallel to the on Jerome was included but not an adjacent line to the , especially taking into account that some parts of the original IND are overbuilt.

Not when you realize the IND was built for petty reasons - to bankrupt the IRT first and foremost, and to move pax secondary.

[Armandito]

14 minutes ago, Deucey said:

Not when you realize the IND was built for petty reasons - to bankrupt the IRT first and foremost, and to move pax secondary.

Then it would've been "logical" for the IND to build a Northern Boulevard subway parallel to the if their primary goal was to push the IRT and BMT out of business. After all, no other subway line serves Queens north of the Queens Boulevard Line except the  to Astoria and the  to Flushing.

Edited September 30, 2020 by Armandito

[engineerboy6561]

1 hour ago, Kharn501 said:

As someone who used to live on Northern Blvd that subway would be a godsend as I hated having to walk south to reach my station. Has the MTA ever had discussions/plans on paper in the past to put a subway on Northern just out of curiosity? 

Wouldn't it be better to terminate it at LGA, making it a true "air train", and just expand the 7 to serve bayside on the other hand?

 

 

Expanding the  to Bayside isn't the best idea because of how much of a legendary PITA rebuilding the eastern end of the station would be. I'd prefer to see B-division subway service along Northern and Astoria Blvds, and then Flushing Main St becomes a multi-corridor subway hub like Coney Island. The B Div trains could run out to Bell Blvd (with provisions for extension out to Great Neck if NE Queens winds up densifying heavily), and express service should be provided along at least one of those corridors, maybe both). I'd say it would make sense to run the 50 St crosstown via Northern with at least three tracks, and SAS trains via Astoria Blvd with four tracks, and then expand the Flushing/Main St station to include a plaza under Main St between Roosevelt and Northern; local trains would turn at Flushing Main St and then express trains would continue out to Bell Blvd.

Also, at that point, if we decide that we really want to do something to extend the  east we'd have 60-75 BMT tph of capacity into Flushing, and so turning the  at Shea for a year or two during construction would be feasible. If we were to try to do that without the BMT capacity as a relief it would be an absolute disaster.

Edited September 30, 2020 by engineerboy6561

[Armandito]

15 minutes ago, engineerboy6561 said:

Expanding the  to Bayside isn't the best idea because of how much of a legendary PITA rebuilding the eastern end of the station would be. I'd prefer to see B-division subway service along Northern and Astoria Blvds, and then Flushing Main St becomes a multi-corridor subway hub like Coney Island. The B Div trains could run out to Bell Blvd (with provisions for extension out to Great Neck if NE Queens winds up densifying heavily), and express service should be provided along at least one of those corridors, maybe both). I'd say it would make sense to run the 50 St crosstown via Northern with at least three tracks, and SAS trains via Astoria Blvd with four tracks, and then expand the Flushing/Main St station to include a plaza under Main St between Roosevelt and Northern; local trains would turn at Flushing Main St and then express trains would continue out to Bell Blvd.

If you take a look at my train map (https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=1xxOviuFLs1P8LiFK-DurKk2yPp54nKbV&ll=40.755252902715426%2C-73.886925&z=10), the line would extend as a fully local service from Bell Boulevard to the Hudson Yards station, with the latter end terminating at a lower level platform below the existing one. Though I do have a third track included in my plan (between the Broadway intersection and 164th Street next to the LIRR Broadway station), I haven't considered introducing express service as the stations along the are more widely spaced than those on the . On the other hand, the following stations would be provisional express stops: 54 St-Broadway, Junction Blvd, Main-Union Sts, 164 St, 192 St, and Bell Blvd. The rest of the stations along the route would be all-train stops.

Edited September 30, 2020 by Armandito

[engineerboy6561]

43 minutes ago, Armandito said:

If you take a look at my train map (https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=1xxOviuFLs1P8LiFK-DurKk2yPp54nKbV&ll=40.755252902715426%2C-73.886925&z=10), the line would extend as a fully local service from Bell Boulevard to the Hudson Yards station, with the latter end terminating at a lower level platform below the existing one. Though I do have a third track included in my plan (between the Broadway intersection and 164th Street next to the LIRR Broadway station), I haven't considered introducing express service as the stations along the are more widely spaced than those on the . On the other hand, the following stations would be provisional express stops: 54 St-Broadway, Junction Blvd, Main-Union Sts, 164 St, 192 St, and Bell Blvd. The rest of the stations along the route would be all-train stops.

That's interesting; I tend to be more fond of placing local stops 1500-1700 feet apart, and then having express stops every 3500-7000 feet. For instance, my proposal for the 3 Av line has stops at Norwood/205 St, Bedford Park Bl, Fordham Plaza, 183 St, 180 St, Tremont Av, 174 St, 169 St, 163 St, 156 St, 149 St, 143 St, and 138 St, with Norwood, Fordham Plaza, Tremont Av, 163 St, 149 St, and 138 St serving as express stops.

Edited September 30, 2020 by engineerboy6561

[Armandito]

20 minutes ago, engineerboy6561 said:

That's interesting; I tend to be more fond of placing local stops 1500-1700 feet apart, and then having express stops every 3500-7000 feet. For instance, my proposal for the 3 Av line has stops at Norwood/205 St, Bedford Park Bl, Fordham Plaza, 183 St, 180 St, Tremont Av, 174 St, 169 St, 163 St, 156 St, 149 St, 143 St, and 138 St, with Norwood, Fordham Plaza, Tremont Av, 163 St, 149 St, and 138 St serving as express stops.

I tend to determine which stops become expresses based on potential ridership as opposed to distance. Kinda like how the determines LTD and SBS stops along busy bus routes.

[bobtehpanda]

6 hours ago, Armandito said:

Thoughts?

<large images>

To call this a construction nightmare would be an understatement. This exact type of construction is why the Sixth Avenue Line ended up wasting all the money for the Second System.

1 hour ago, Deucey said:

Not when you realize the IND was built for petty reasons - to bankrupt the IRT first and foremost, and to move pax secondary.

 

1 hour ago, Armandito said:

Then it would've been "logical" for the IND to build a Northern Boulevard subway parallel to the if their primary goal was to push the IRT and BMT out of business. After all, no other subway line serves Queens north of the Queens Boulevard Line except the  to Astoria and the  to Flushing.

Couple things

1. The Bronx was denser and more heavily populated than Queens in the '20s and '30s so building there was the priority
2. Queens was so poorly served by transit that Queens Boulevard was the priority. It would not have made a whole lot of sense for the IND to try and chase competing passengers in a then not-dense area, instead of pursuing new opportunities elsewhere. And given the lack of money this would've been the choice they were making.
3. Both Grand Concourse Line and Queens Boulevard Line were planned earlier on as Dual Contracts lines, the IND mostly took existing plans and made them their own, with some adjustments.

[engineerboy6561]

Just now, Armandito said:

I tend to determine which stops become expresses based on potential ridership as opposed to distance. Kinda like how the determines LTD and SBS stops along busy bus routes.

Same; in that specific case I went with Norwood, Fordham, Tremont, 161 and 149 because of the high volume of bus connections available at each of those spots, and then 138 St simply to keep a full transfer from the .

[Theli11]

On 9/30/2020 at 4:33 PM, engineerboy6561 said:

That's interesting; I tend to be more fond of placing local stops 1500-1700 feet apart, and then having express stops every 3500-7000 feet. For instance, my proposal for the 3 Av line has stops at Norwood/205 St, Bedford Park Bl, Fordham Plaza, 183 St, 180 St, Tremont Av, 174 St, 169 St, 163 St, 156 St, 149 St, 143 St, and 138 St, with Norwood, Fordham Plaza, Tremont Av, 163 St, 149 St, and 138 St serving as express stops.

On 9/30/2020 at 4:55 PM, Armandito said:

I tend to determine which stops become expresses based on potential ridership as opposed to distance. Kinda like how the determines LTD and SBS stops along busy bus routes.

On 9/30/2020 at 5:11 PM, engineerboy6561 said:

Same; in that specific case I went with Norwood, Fordham, Tremont, 161 and 149 because of the high volume of bus connections available at each of those spots, and then 138 St simply to keep a full transfer from the .

I think that in (and areas immediately surrounding) Manhattan, it's more about express stops serving an important destination (Yankee Stadium*, 125 St, 59 St, 42, 34, 14, City Hall/Chambers, Fulton St/World Trade and South Ferry) because Passengers from Queens, Bronx and Brooklyn want to get to those important destinations. However, inside of those boroughs it's about getting to Manhattan the fastest, and getting to transfers the fastest. (It's why peek-direction trains are always to Manhattan in the morning since that's where a lot of people work, Down/Midtown Manhattan, Downtown Queens, and Downtown Brooklyn). In Engineerboy's examples, I would even skip 163 St and just go from Tremont to 149 Sts, though I understand why you choose 161-163 Sts.  For 3 Av, the  should go to Gun Hill - White Plains Roads (Instead of using Norwood as the express stop, use the  stop as the express stop and extend to Co-Op City.) In general, the goal in the outer boroughs is to get to Manhattan as fast as possible, hitting the most important stops, like Engineerboy says.

 

 

[engineerboy6561]

7 hours ago, Theli11 said:

I think that in (and areas immediately surrounding) Manhattan, it's more about express stops serving an important destination (Yankee Stadium*, 125 St, 59 St, 42, 34, 14, City Hall/Chambers, Fulton St/World Trade and South Ferry) because Passengers from Queens, Bronx and Brooklyn want to get to those important destinations. However, inside of those boroughs it's about getting to Manhattan the fastest, and getting to transfers the fastest. (It's why peek-direction trains are always to Manhattan in the morning since that's where a lot of people work, Down/Midtown Manhattan, Downtown Queens, and Downtown Brooklyn). In Engineerboy's examples, I would even skip 163 St and just go from Tremont to 149 Sts, though I understand why you choose 161-163 Sts.  For 3 Av, the  should go to Gun Hill - White Plains Roads (Instead of using Norwood as the express stop, use the  stop as the express stop and extend to Co-Op City.) In general, the goal in the outer boroughs is to get to Manhattan as fast as possible, hitting the most important stops, like Engineerboy says.

 

 

Usually for that specific plan I bring a four-track trunk up to Norwood/205 St, turn the local trains there, and then run a three-track line carrying the  and the 2 Av express along Gun Hill to Bay Plaza, with connections for the  at White Plains Rd and the  at Seymour Av, with the goal of providing people in the East Bronx east- and west-side access. By running only the expresses out that far we dramatically cut access times to East and West midtown (the  is an hour from Wakefield to Times Sq on the schedule, and the  is 45 minutes from Dyre to Grand Central; the  is 35 minutes from Norwood to 34 St, and an extension to Bay Plaza would likely add 9-12 mins on to that, and I figure a 2 Av express would be about even with the  or even a bit faster). All told that would do Williamsbridge to Midtown in 35-38 minutes via the IND rather than 52ish minutes via IRT, and the 2 Av setup would essentially pull a huge chunk of the people heading from the western half of the Bronx to the hospitals on the east side. I'm figuring from Williamsbridge to Tisch or Beth Israel would be eleven stops (Gun Hill Rd/WPR, Norwood, Fordham, Tremont, 163, 149, 125, 86, 59, 42, 14) on 2 Av as opposed to fourteen on the IRT, and faster between the stops because there wouldn't be the constant backups due to overcrowding that you'd see on the Lex. 

Here's the last completed draft of my proposal: 45 new IND tph into the Bronx (30 via 3 Av, 15 via Boston Rd/Amtrak trunk, 30 crosstown tph on Gun Hill), 60tph on 2 Av, 60tph into Williamsburg, 30tph to Jamaica Center and SE Queens, 45tph along Northern Blvd west of Junction Bl, 30tph from Junction Bl to Bell Blvd.

 

 

Edited October 3, 2020 by engineerboy6561