Modernizing signaling

[RailRunRob]

I know we've touched on this topic before. Just wanted to share from the Times this morning! Interesting comparison with London as well.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/01/nyregion/new-york-subway-signals.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=photo-spot-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0

[Via Garibaldi 8]

This should perhaps be discussed from a different angle, and that is how we can take the strain off of the subway to allow the work to actually get done.  That's one reason we need to find a way to improve bus service.  No they can't magically deal with all the people riding the subway, but we have to look at other ways to move people in addition to the subway.  We now have city wide ferry service starting today.  That's a step in the right direction.  The has kept fares on express buses at $6.50.  Metro-North and LIRR need to re-examine their fare structures as well to allow more riders to use their system. I don't mean making them $2.75 either but lower than what they are.

[Kraps]

This should perhaps be discussed from a different angle, and that is how we can take the strain off of the subway to allow the work to actually get done. That's one reason we need to find a way to improve bus service. No they can't magically deal with all the people riding the subway, but we have to look at other ways to move people in addition to the subway. We now have city wide ferry service starting today. That's a step in the right direction. The has kept fares on express buses at $6.50. Metro-North and LIRR need to re-examine their fare structures as well to allow more riders to use their system. I don't mean making them $2.75 either but lower than what they are.

What is citywide ferry service?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

What is citywide ferry service?

I attended several meetings back in 2015 and 2016 during the planning stages as part of my job.  It's basically ferry service being provided to various communities around the city with limited transportation.  The service costs $2.75 for a single ride and $121.00 for a monthly pass, just like the subway.  It started today running from the Rockaways to Wall Street with a stop in Sunset Park, and they run 7 days a week.  There are other ferry routes as well, which can be found here.  Some of them will start later this year or in 2018. 

 

https://www.ferry.nyc/routes-and-schedules/

 

http://www.nyctransitforums.com/forums/topic/50368-new-city-wide-ferry-service-starts-today/?do=findComment&comment=923250

 

Some were previously run by another provider at a higher cost.  Now everything is under the city at the same price! I think this is huge for the city and definitely needed.  I hate taking the subway, and now I can go to Williamsburg, DUMBO and the like with the ferry.  A much nicer, CLEANER ride, without all of the signal delays. 

[Deucey]

I attended several meetings back in 2015 and 2016 during the planning stages as part of my job. It's basically ferry service being provided to various communities around the city with limited transportation. The service costs $2.75 for a single ride and $121.00 for a monthly pass, just like the subway. It started today running from the Rockaways to Wall Street with a stop in Sunset Park, and they run 7 days a week. There are other ferry routes as well, which can be found here. Some of them will start later this year or in 2018.

 

https://www.ferry.nyc/routes-and-schedules/

 

http://www.nyctransitforums.com/forums/topic/50368-new-city-wide-ferry-service-starts-today/?do=findComment&comment=923250

 

Some were previously run by another provider at a higher cost. Now everything is under the city at the same price! I think this is huge for the city and definitely needed. I hate taking the subway, and now I can go to Williamsburg, DUMBO and the like with the ferry. A much nicer, CLEANER ride, without all of the signal delays.

I'm sad the East River ferry by NY Waterways is gone, but $2.75 for a trip from Wall Street to North W'burg instead of $4 is a beautiful thing.

[biGC323232]

I attended several meetings back in 2015 and 2016 during the planning stages as part of my job.  It's basically ferry service being provided to various communities around the city with limited transportation.  The service costs $2.75 for a single ride and $121.00 for a monthly pass, just like the subway.  It started today running from the Rockaways to Wall Street with a stop in Sunset Park, and they run 7 days a week.  There are other ferry routes as well, which can be found here.  Some of them will start later this year or in 2018. 

 

https://www.ferry.nyc/routes-and-schedules/

 

http://www.nyctransitforums.com/forums/topic/50368-new-city-wide-ferry-service-starts-today/?do=findComment&comment=923250

 

Some were previously run by another provider at a higher cost.  Now everything is under the city at the same price! I think this is huge for the city and definitely needed.  I hate taking the subway, and now I can go to Williamsburg, DUMBO and the like with the ferry.  A much nicer, CLEANER ride, without all of the signal delays. 

Question for you VG8...Do you think the ferry service from the rockaways to mahn  will be a success...Far rockaway to manhattan  by boat is a long trip... 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I'm sad the East River ferry by NY Waterways is gone, but $2.75 for a trip from Wall Street to North W'burg instead of $4 is a beautiful thing.

lol... I don't know why you would be.  The city is investing over 300 million dollars for new boats, new everything.  The service will be cheaper and better. They'll be WiFi as well in the future. I'm really looking forward to going Downtown and to parts of Brooklyn more often.  The idea is that the more people that use it, the more service will be able to run.  At $4.00, you're limiting your ridership potential, since there are no free transfers to say an express bus.

[rbrome]

I don't know why the MTA can't just say "line X will be closed at night (all nights) for the next three years" and get the dang CBTC installed. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Question for you VG8...Do you think the ferry service from the rockaways to mahn  will be a success...Far rockaway to manhattan  by boat is a long trip... 

Oh I think it will be a hit.  This is the first time that the city has been committed to keeping this service up and running, and given the amount of cash coming into the coffers, they have plenty of money to keep things going.  I met with some of the residents of the Rockaways at a few of the meetings (one guy showed up to just about every location where there was a meeting (Kew Gardens in Queens, Soundview in the Bronx, Brooklyn Heights, and so on lol)) talking about what Far Rockaway residents needed for the ferry service.  Already it's been a success because it cuts the commute times for those folks out there by HALF.  Some people apparently had a two hour commute between the bus and the train, so now they have a one hour commute that is much more relaxing than dealing with the train with its frequent delays from signal problems.  Not only that but like Red Hook, I expect the neighborhood to be revitalized from outside visitors.  It's just a question of making sure that the service is promoted and accessible to those who want to use it.  That's been the issue in Red Hook.  People are very upset about the proposed placement of the slips.  Once they figure that out it should be good to go. It also gives people an alternative and I think we definitely need more of this down the road to alleviate the crowding on the subways.  It will allow the more flexibility to shut down subway service instead of doing patch work.

[biGC323232]

Oh I think it will be a hit.  This is the first time that the city has been committed to keeping this service up and running, and given the amount of cash coming into the coffers, they have plenty of money to keep things going.  I met with some of the residents of the Rockaways at a few of the meetings (one guy showed up to just about every location where there was a meeting (Kew Gardens in Queens, Soundview in the Bronx, Brooklyn Heights, and so on lol)) talking about what Far Rockaway residents needed for the ferry service.  Already it's been a success because it cuts the commute times for those folks out there by HALF.  Some people apparently had a two hour commute between the bus and the train, so now they have a one hour commute that is much more relaxing than dealing with the train with its frequent delays from signal problems.  Not only that but like Red Hook, I expect the neighborhood to be revitalized from outside visitors.  It's just a question of making sure that the service is promoted and accessible to those who want to use it.  That's been the issue in Red Hook.  People are very upset about the proposed placement of the slips.  Once they figure that out it should be good to go. It also gives people an alternative and I think we definitely need more of this down the road to alleviate the crowding on the subways.  It will allow the more flexibility to shut down subway service instead of doing patch work.

Got it...I havent been on a boat since i visited someone in SI which was years ago...But i do visit the rockaways more...I'll give it a try and see...Cause like you said the bus to the   and vice versa can be a headache sometimes

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Got it...I havent been on a boat since i visited someone in SI which was years ago...But i do visit the rockaways more...I'll give it a try and see...Cause like you said the bus to the   and vice versa can be a headache sometimes

And for $2.75, you can't beat it.

-------

I must say though... I was shocked to see how old some of the signaling equipment is that is being used for the subway.  Not only that but how long this process is taking. I don't see any other solutions... In a way though, I think we're seeing how commuters are responding by how successful Uber and other options have been on weekends for example.  

[P3F]

How much longer is it going to take to modernize the Dyre Avenue line's signals?

[Around the Horn]

Oh I think it will be a hit.  This is the first time that the city has been committed to keeping this service up and running, and given the amount of cash coming into the coffers, they have plenty of money to keep things going.  I met with some of the residents of the Rockaways at a few of the meetings (one guy showed up to just about every location where there was a meeting (Kew Gardens in Queens, Soundview in the Bronx, Brooklyn Heights, and so on lol)) talking about what Far Rockaway residents needed for the ferry service.  Already it's been a success because it cuts the commute times for those folks out there by HALF.  Some people apparently had a two hour commute between the bus and the train, so now they have a one hour commute that is much more relaxing than dealing with the train with its frequent delays from signal problems.  Not only that but like Red Hook, I expect the neighborhood to be revitalized from outside visitors.  It's just a question of making sure that the service is promoted and accessible to those who want to use it.  That's been the issue in Red Hook.  People are very upset about the proposed placement of the slips.  Once they figure that out it should be good to go. It also gives people an alternative and I think we definitely need more of this down the road to alleviate the crowding on the subways.  It will allow the more flexibility to shut down subway service instead of doing patch work.

 

NY1 did a race between Rockaway and Pier 11, and the guy on the lost only because they made the stupid decision of taking the from Fulton to Broad and got hit with delays there, instead of walking or taking the to Wall.

 

If you're headed to Midtown and take the ferry, the will either beat you, or you end up getting the same train at Fulton that you would have gotten in the Rockaways.

 

plus its one ferry an hour and it only fits something like 150 people a boat or something like that.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

NY1 did a race between Rockaway and Pier 11, and the guy on the lost only because they made the stupid decision of taking the from Fulton to Broad and got hit with delays there, instead of walking or taking the to Wall.

 

If you're headed to Midtown and take the ferry, the will either beat you, or you end up getting the same train at Fulton that you would have gotten in the Rockaways.

 

plus its one ferry an hour and it only fits something like 150 people a boat or something like that.

Listen I've used the .  When there are delays because of signal problems, the ferry will be very helpful. Hell I just read about this lady driving from Jamaica Queens to Far Rockaway just to take the ferry because it's stress free. This is only a start.  If it's successful, more routes will be added and service will be expanded.  The Rockaways quite frankly should have 7 day express bus service, and since they don't this is a start.  The other thing that is planned is to integrate the system so that people can get free transfers to the subway or the bus.  There's already a free shuttle bus in Far Rockaway taking people to the ferry, and folks in the Rockaways were quite angry when the service was cancelled under Bloomberg.  Given how vocal they were at the meetings I attended, and the price point, I expect this to do very well.

 

The other thing you're overlooking is there's obviously a lot of people that live in the Rockaways that don't work in Midtown and that's a market that is being served now with ferry service. Outside of the , the only other option previously was an express (QM16 or QM17) bus  with limited hours serving Midtown only with folks having to transfer to the BxM18 for Downtown service.

 

I should also add that the pilot ferry service so far has been quite successful, carrying 1.3 million passengers annually, and that was at $4.00 per ride during the week.

 

 

How much longer is it going to take to modernize the Dyre Avenue line's signals?

Heh, please.  We'll both be walking with canes and they still won't have that done... 

How much longer is it going to take to modernize the Dyre Avenue line's signals?

Heh, please.  We'll both be walking with canes and they still won't have that done... 

[Deucey]

lol... I don't know why you would be. The city is investing over 300 million dollars for new boats, new everything. The service will be cheaper and better. They'll be WiFi as well in the future. I'm really looking forward to going Downtown and to parts of Brooklyn more often. The idea is that the more people that use it, the more service will be able to run. At $4.00, you're limiting your ridership potential, since there are no free transfers to say an express bus.

Just the customer service aspect. If NY Waterways staff saw me running from South Ferry (in my bright orange jacket) or saw the SI Ferry pull in late, they'd hold the boat or come back to the gate to let me and/or the two other riders on if the boat didn't pull away yet. That sort of attention earns loyalty. It'll be interesting to see if that continues under City administration.

 

On the trains and signalling, we've endured two major extended shutdowns - Greenpoint and Montague for rebuilds, so I dunno why doesn't do the same on other lines for CBTC and rebuilds to get this done faster.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Just the customer service aspect. If NY Waterways staff saw me running from South Ferry (in my bright orange jacket) or saw the SI Ferry pull in late, they'd hold the boat or come back to the gate to let me and/or the two other riders on if the boat didn't pull away yet. That sort of attention earns loyalty. It'll be interesting to see if that continues under City administration.

 

On the trains and signalling, we've endured two major extended shutdowns - Greenpoint and Montague for rebuilds, so I dunno why doesn't do the same on other lines for CBTC and rebuilds to get this done faster.

I see... Well the SI Ferry does that too to an extent, so I don't see that changing too much, especially if the next boat isn't due in a hour.

[Around the Horn]

The Rockaways quite frankly should have 7 day express bus service, and since they don't this is a start.  

 

The Rockaways doesn't have seven day express service?! That seems like one of the areas that would really use it...

[Via Garibaldi 8]

The Rockaways doesn't have seven day express service?! That seems like one of the areas that would really use it...

Nope.  With this ferry service, at least that will run 7 days a week, though the service ends early.

[RailRunRob]

This should perhaps be discussed from a different angle, and that is how we can take the strain off of the subway to allow the work to actually get done.  That's one reason we need to find a way to improve bus service.  No they can't magically deal with all the people riding the subway, but we have to look at other ways to move people in addition to the subway.  We now have city wide ferry service starting today.  That's a step in the right direction.  The has kept fares on express buses at $6.50.  Metro-North and LIRR need to re-examine their fare structures as well to allow more riders to use their system. I don't mean making them $2.75 either but lower than what they are.

You know I don't have an answer I'm okay saying it. It's almost like were past the point of no return with the Subways. Imagine being in the middle of the ocean with the closest route to land being years away in all directions. That's what I visualize here. There isn't a magic bullet it's going to get worst before it even starts to get better. I mean New York was built atop the subway and it's infrastructure nothing could compare even if you wanted it to. We got royally screwed by the generations before us. Lack of vision, foresight, investment atop misstep after misstep so in a way we're reaping what we sowed.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

You know I don't have an answer I'm okay saying it. It's almost like were past the point of no return with the Subways. Imagine being in the middle of the ocean with the closest route to land being years away in all directions. That's what I visualize here. There isn't a magic bullet it's going to get worst before it even starts to get better. I mean New York was built atop the subway and it's infrastructure nothing could compare even if you wanted it to. We got royally screwed by the generations before us. Lack of vision, foresight, investment atop misstep after misstep so in a way we're reaping what we sowed.

The only answer is to look at other ways of moving people.  Nothing can replace the subway, but we can certainly lessen the burden on it and integrate the system more.  It's going to take some drastic planning for that to happen.  What I have liked about the is they've been trying to make service elsewhere uniform to some degree.  They need to do more of that with the schedules.  The system has to be modernized given the population increase that is expected. I also think we have to re-examine overnight bus service again.  When I lived in Florence (a city without a subway), the bus system was pretty efficient.  We had routes that only ran overnight and they were prompt.  Here we've been cutting overnight bus service.  Restore some of that service which would then allow for more subway shutdowns during the late nights.  Florence is a very small city, much like Milan, but both cities have good transportation.  In Milan there are trams all over.  The picture I took below is basically what is also used in Rome. Whatever happened with the tram project de Blasio was pushing?

 

[RR503]

I'm all for multimodality, but Deblasio's ferry system is honestly a waste. For an initial cost of 325 million, it's expected to carry just 4.6 million people per year, or about 12,500 people per day. They talk a lot about reducing pressure on our subways, but that 12,500 is about two tenths of one percent of daily subway ridership. In other words, a molecule in the bucket.

 

In comparison to this ferry system, the B35 carries (IIRC) 11 million a year, and it's not even the highest ridership route. Imagine what that 325 mil could do to our bus and subway systems. New signals, SBS conversions, new rolling stock, new routes, you name it. And those improvements would definitely move more than 12,500 a day. Yes alternatives, are sexy, and even saying the word seems to make politicians/planners get aroused, but they're not always best. To start afresh and ignore what we already have is to be ignorant. This isn't to benefit us, this is to benefit Deblasio. He is building his ferry system not out of a will for public good, but because he feels shut out of the MTA by Cuomo, and needs to up his pedigree. This is politics, folks. Don't see it as anything else.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I'm all for multimodality, but Deblasio's ferry system is honestly a waste. For an initial cost of 325 million, it's expected to carry just 4.6 million people per year, or about 12,500 people per day. They talk a lot about reducing pressure on our subways, but that 12,500 is about two tenths of one percent of daily subway ridership. In other words, a molecule in the bucket.

 

In comparison to this ferry system, the B35 carries (IIRC) 11 million a year, and it's not even the highest ridership route. Imagine what that 325 mil could do to our bus and subway systems. New signals, SBS conversions, new rolling stock, new routes, you name it. And those improvements would definitely move more than 12,500 a day. Yes alternatives, are sexy, and even saying the word seems to make politicians/planners get aroused, but they're not always best. To start afresh and ignore what we already have is to be ignorant. This isn't to benefit us, this is to benefit Deblasio. He is building his ferry system not out of a will for public good, but because he feels shut out of the MTA by Cuomo, and needs to up his pedigree. This is politics, folks. Don't see it as anything else.

lol... The city's waterways have been underutilized for years, and this is a project that has been thrown around, but never quite came to fruition until now.  The idea that we should only have buses and subways as the only way to get around in this city is absurd and shortsighted, when buses and subways don't necessarily make sense for every community.

 

Looking at what other cities around the world have in terms of transportation options, it's laughable that it's taken this long to have ferry service citywide here, and we're supposed to be one a model for others...  Aside from that, we have a massive congestion problem, both under ground and above ground, so spending 325 million to upgrade the subways would just be a drop in the bucket as well. We have to explore other ways to move people.

[RR503]

The reason it hasn't been done before is that it doesn't really make sense. Remember that once upon a time, New York had ferries to everywhere, and even in that time of insane congestion, they disappeared.

 

$325 million would in no way be a drop in the bucket. That's about 1/2 of the cost of CBTC on a trunk, or about 15 SBS routes.

 

Options are nice to have, but in the end, what you need is service quality, not quantity. I can go to a supermarket and look at a hundred types of cabbage, and that's great, but the end it means nothing if all the cabbage is rotten.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

The reason it hasn't been done before is that it doesn't really make sense. Remember that once upon a time, New York had ferries to everywhere, and even in that time of insane congestion, they disappeared.

 

$325 million would in no way be a drop in the bucket. That's about 1/2 of the cost of CBTC on a trunk, or about 15 SBS routes.

 

Options are nice to have, but in the end, what you need is service quality, not quantity. I can go to a supermarket and look at a hundred types of cabbage, and that's great, but the end it means nothing if all the cabbage is rotten.

I don't think that the communities that lack transportation options would agree with you.  In the Rockaways, if the train goes down and the express buses aren't running there is NOTHING else as an option.  I don't see how you could call that "rotten".  The reason the ferries didn't work previously was due to a lack of frequency but mainly the high costs.  At $2.75 a person, it's right in line with the subway, which makes it more accessible, not to mention the free shuttle buses.

[RR503]

You literally just defeated your own point. Spend those $325 mil on express buses, and problem solved. You have an alternative, and one that coexists with our existing system.