“Welcome to Club Manhattan. $11.52 cover charge”

[Deucey]

https://www.amny.com/transit/nyc-congestion-pricing-cuomo-1.16251627

Cars entering the most traffic-clogged area of Manhattan could be charged $11.52 under recommendations to be announced by Gov. Andrew Cuomo’s congestion pricing panel, amNewYork has learned.

The highly anticipated proposal, to be released Friday by the governor’s Fix NYC panel, aims to reduce congestion in Manhattan’s central business district while also providing a new, dedicated revenue stream for the beleaguered Metropolitan Transportation Authority.

The recommended fee could either be set up to charge private vehicles a one-way fee of $11.52, or a two-way fee of $5.76 — though the exact dollar amount is considered one “option” and not a specific recommendation, according to a source familiar with the proposal. The charges are structured to match the tolls imposed on vehicles entering the city through its tunnels, the source said.

Drivers who enter Manhattan via tunnel would not have to pay twice, the source said. The charges could vary depending on the time of day.

Different fees would be applied to trucks, taxis and for-hire vehicles, the source said. Recommendations include charging trucks a one-way fee of as much as $25.34 and taxis and for-hire vehicles a surcharge between $2 and $5 per ride, according to the source.

Those fees for private vehicles would be implemented at 60th Street, while taxis and for-hire vehicles could see surcharges take effect higher in Manhattan, at 96th Street.

The panel’s proposal could raise between $1 billion and $1.5 billion annually for mass transit, the source said.

The recommendations from the panel do not include tolling the East River bridges or reducing outer-borough tolls, according to the source.

Instituting the fees would require the approval of the State Legislature, which has already shot down two other congestion pricing proposals dating back to Mayor Michael Bloomberg’s administration.

Even then, it would take at least two years to implement the tolls, with time needed for planning, design and construction of the necessary infrastructure, the source said.

Ultimately, the proposal would require the installation of similar technology that is currently used for the MTA’s cashless tolling system including the erection of gantries and scanners.

The tolls would be instituted in phases, the source said, with trucks, taxes and for-hire vehicles first getting charged and private vehicles following at some point after that.

In the time it will take to install the necessary infrastructure to support the tolls, the panel hopes that the MTA’s Subway Action Plan will bring some stability to a subway system that has experienced a soaring number of delays in recent years.

Cuomo has heralded congestion pricing as “an idea whose time has come.” Mayor Bill de Blasio, a steadfast opponent to the prospect, has pitched a millionaire’s tax to raise funds for the subways. That plan would also need approval from the State Legislature.

Crippling congestion in New York City is costing the metropolitan area $20 billion a year, according to a report issued Wednesday from the Partnership of New York City, which has representation on Cuomo’s Fix NYC panel.

While de Blasio has said he’d be open to reviewing any plan from the panel, he has maintained in recent weeks that congestion pricing is a “regressive tax” that unfairly burdens lower-income, outer-borough car owners.

Census data suggests otherwise. The majority of car owners in each borough tended to have higher household incomes than those of car-free households, according to census data crunched by the nonprofit Tri-State Transportation Campaign last summer.

Senate Majority Leader John Flanagan (R-Long Island) declined to comment on the panel’s proposal Thursday, saying through a spokesman he wanted to review the full report first. But two weeks ago when Cuomo floated the concept in his State of the State address, Flanagan, asked if he could support congestion pricing, said: “Not from what I’ve listened to.”

Further, Flanagan said he’d rely on the opinions of the only two Republican senators from the five boroughs, Sens. Martin Golden (R-Brooklyn) and Andrew Lanza (R-Staten Island). And on Wednesday, Lanza said it was “insulting and ridiculous” to charge drivers coming into Manhattan to work.

“If we’re going to address the traffic and do a congestion pricing scheme, it’s got to be fair and not punish the people from the outer boroughs,” Lanza told reporters.

With Yancey Roy

 

[Deucey]

And even though it’ll bring $1.5 billion for  to mismanage and screw UES residents taking cabs, I’m still against this so long as the FDR, Westside Highway and Queensboro Bridge are included in this. It’s   forcing people who live on the wrong side of a choke point to pay more for a transit system they’re not using without forcing riders of that system to pay more.

[bobtehpanda]

2 hours ago, Deucey said:

And even though it’ll bring $1.5 billion for  to mismanage and screw UES residents taking cabs, I’m still against this so long as the FDR, Westside Highway and Queensboro Bridge are included in this. It’s   forcing people who live on the wrong side of a choke point to pay more for a transit system they’re not using without forcing riders of that system to pay more.

According to NYT, it will not cover the FDR, so you could drive all the way from the Brooklyn Bridge to the GWB and not pay a toll. (So QB and Brooklyn will not be tolled, but Manhattan and Williamsburg will be because those bridges do not have a direct path to the FDR.) The free paths as a result are greatly reduced, but there is one remaining, namely Brooklyn/QB -> FDR Dr -> GW westbound. (There is no toll-free eastbound, but that doesn't exist anyways.)

This doesn't have the same air pollution and congestion reduction impact on LIC and Downtown Brooklyn, but I'll take it.

[N6 Limited]

I don't like the lack of toll reduction on outer bridges.

As for the Brooklyn & QB Br aspect, it sounds like the QB Br would have the same amount of traffic, or it may have less traffic if motorists stop avoiding the the QMT, but the Brooklyn Br and FDR would be more clogged.

I'll have to see the plan when it's revealed, but it sounds like if you were on the southbound FDR going to Brooklyn from north of 60th st, you'd have to stay stuck in traffic to avoid the toll. If you exit the FDR to bypass congestion on the way to the Brooklyn Br or exit to use the Manhattan or Williamsburg Br because they were actually less congested (according to traffic/map apps) then you'd be charged.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

5 hours ago, N6 Limited said:

I don't like the lack of toll reduction on outer bridges.

As for the Brooklyn & QB Br aspect, it sounds like the QB Br would have the same amount of traffic, or it may have less traffic if motorists stop avoiding the the QMT, but the Brooklyn Br and FDR would be more clogged.

I'll have to see the plan when it's revealed, but it sounds like if you were on the southbound FDR going to Brooklyn from north of 60th st, you'd have to stay stuck in traffic to avoid the toll. If you exit the FDR to bypass congestion on the way to the Brooklyn Br or exit to use the Manhattan or Williamsburg Br because they were actually less congested (according to traffic/map apps) then you'd be charged.

No toll reductions... The idea is to deter driving, not encourage it.  Our roads are saturated with too many cars and more and more people moving here want to drive (the key word being want). It is unsustainable. Not only is it causing an insane amount of congestion and pollution, but it is having a huge impact on our local economy. For those who absolutely must drive, they can pay accordingly. I'm also glad that they are slapping these trucks too. They clog up the streets double (and triple) parking all over the place and blocking up traffic.  The other issue that is exacerbating congestion is the FedEx and UPS trucks.  With so many people ordering online now, these guys are everywhere blocking traffic to make deliveries. That and those FreshDirect trucks...

Quote

In an analysis released this week, the partnership calculated that worsening congestion now costs the New York region about $20 billion annually, up from $13 billion annually in 2006.

 

7 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

According to NYT, it will not cover the FDR, so you could drive all the way from the Brooklyn Bridge to the GWB and not pay a toll. (So QB and Brooklyn will not be tolled, but Manhattan and Williamsburg will be because those bridges do not have a direct path to the FDR.) The free paths as a result are greatly reduced, but there is one remaining, namely Brooklyn/QB -> FDR Dr -> GW westbound. (There is no toll-free eastbound, but that doesn't exist anyways.)

This doesn't have the same air pollution and congestion reduction impact on LIC and Downtown Brooklyn, but I'll take it.

Agreed.  The last time I remember congestion this bad was around 2007/2008 before the economy tanked.

9 hours ago, Deucey said:

And even though it’ll bring $1.5 billion for  to mismanage and screw UES residents taking cabs, I’m still against this so long as the FDR, Westside Highway and Queensboro Bridge are included in this. It’s   forcing people who live on the wrong side of a choke point to pay more for a transit system they’re not using without forcing riders of that system to pay more.

I support it, even though it's essentially half-@ssed, but there is no question that the congestion is worsening and we need to start somewhere. I was talking with another commuter about it this morning because we both used to take a later BxM2 down to work.  Now we've both moved up our commutes by almost an hour.  

[N6 Limited]

4 hours ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

No toll reductions... The idea is to deter driving, not encourage it.  Our roads are saturated with too many cars and more and more people moving here want to drive (the key word being want). It is unsustainable. Not only is it causing an insane amount of congestion and pollution, but it is having a huge impact on our local economy. For those who absolutely must drive, they can pay accordingly. I'm also glad that they are slapping these trucks too. They clog up the streets double (and triple) parking all over the place and blocking up traffic.  The other issue that is exacerbating congestion is the FedEx and UPS trucks.  With so many people ordering online now, these guys are everywhere blocking traffic to make deliveries. That and those FreshDirect trucks...

Haha, those Fresh Direct trucks are everywhere.

I like the idea of outer borough toll reductions. Yes, they want to deter driving but the only transit between Queens and the Bronx is the Q44 & Q50.  I can drive from eastern Queens to Bay Plaza/Co-op City (or even New Rochelle!) in 20-30 minutes, by public transportation that would take TWO HOURS with good connections! 

If they want to discourage driving they need to improve transit options, convenience, costs and speeds.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

6 minutes ago, N6 Limited said:

Haha, those Fresh Direct trucks are everywhere.

I like the idea of outer borough toll reductions. Yes, they want to deter driving but the only transit between Queens and the Bronx is the Q44 & Q50.  I can drive from eastern Queens to Bay Plaza/Co-op City (or even New Rochelle!) in 20-30 minutes, by public transportation that would take TWO HOURS with good connections! 

If they want to discourage driving they need to improve transit options, convenience, costs and speeds.

That's all fine and good, but there are plenty of people driving all over the city that really aren't saving any time. They just sit in traffic, so I don't fully buy the excuse that so much time is saved.  

[bobtehpanda]

Here's a more detailed writeup of the plan.

• Tolls not on the ERB, so Brooklyn/QB->FDR->GWB is still fine.
• A $2-$5 surcharge on all rideshare trips within the congestion zone.
• 10% increase in speeds. $800M-$1.1B raised, depending on what is used
• Toll is entering Manhattan; no toll leaving.

Cuomo has already said he will want to reduce tolls on the outer borough bridges as well. Which is fine, because we want all those LI'ers getting out of the city to use those instead.

Really, we should enshrine into law a three-tier toll system:

Cheapest tier - non-highway bridges between Manhattan and the Bronx, Rockaways bridges

Middle tier - outer borough bridges (VZ, Triboro, Whitestone, Throgs Neck

Highest tier - Manhattan CBD entry.

The most interesting experiment would be if this highest tier ran the way some HOT lanes worked and set the toll needed to maintain speeds on the bridge approaches or Canal St at, say, 30-40MPH. Virginia did this and saw tolls hike up to $40.

[BreeddekalbL]

Will this plan have an exemption for the residents who live in the congestion zone?

[bobtehpanda]

2 hours ago, BreeddekalbL said:

Will this plan have an exemption for the residents who live in the congestion zone?

No, but why should it? Most people who live in the congestion zone don't own cars, and if they're driving around they are by definition contributing to congestion.

[BreeddekalbL]

50 minutes ago, bobtehpanda said:

No, but why should it? Most people who live in the congestion zone don't own cars, and if they're driving around they are by definition contributing to congestion.

Someone in london told me they have a "residential discount" if they have a car

[N6 Limited]

I noticed something slick. If you take the Upper Level of the QB Br to Manhattan and stay north of 60th street then there is no fee. But if you want to return to Queens via the QB Br you have to cross 60th street to access the upper and lower levels, and pay the fee.

[Italianstallion]

On 1/19/2018 at 4:41 AM, N6 Limited said:

I don't like the lack of toll reduction on outer bridges.

As for the Brooklyn & QB Br aspect, it sounds like the QB Br would have the same amount of traffic, or it may have less traffic if motorists stop avoiding the the QMT, but the Brooklyn Br and FDR would be more clogged.

I'll have to see the plan when it's revealed, but it sounds like if you were on the southbound FDR going to Brooklyn from north of 60th st, you'd have to stay stuck in traffic to avoid the toll. If you exit the FDR to bypass congestion on the way to the Brooklyn Br or exit to use the Manhattan or Williamsburg Br because they were actually less congested (according to traffic/map apps) then you'd be charged.

It;'s easy enough technologically to allow free passage on all the bridges as long as you then head for the FDR. While your car would be tolled when you exit, say, the Manhattan Bridge, the toll could then be deducted when you pass the sensor entering the FDR as long as you do that within 15 minutes of leaving the bridge.

[Italianstallion]

3 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

No, but why should it? Most people who live in the congestion zone don't own cars, and if they're driving around they are by definition contributing to congestion.

Because people who live in the zone with cars will use them only to leave the city, and return home later. Usually they leave in the a.m. and return in the p.m. - with thus no effect on daytime congestion. They should not be charged.

[bobtehpanda]

54 minutes ago, Italianstallion said:

Because people who live in the zone with cars will use them only to leave the city, and return home later. Usually they leave in the a.m. and return in the p.m. - with thus no effect on daytime congestion. They should not be charged.

Congestion is still pretty high throughout the day; I've been in many a late night traffic jam crawling across Canal St from the Holland Tunnel to the Manhattan Bridge.

Tolls will be lower during weekends and nights to reflect that under the proposal. But there's still enough congestion to have a baseline charge.

[N6 Limited]

So your're charged the fee to enter the zone but not charged to exit. Will it then be "free" to use the Queens Midtown and Brooklyn Battery Tunnels to exit Manhattan?

[BreeddekalbL]

There will be a protest about it i guarantee that any goods being shipped in you will see a price hike

[Wallyhorse]

On 1/19/2018 at 3:08 PM, N6 Limited said:

Haha, those Fresh Direct trucks are everywhere.

I like the idea of outer borough toll reductions. Yes, they want to deter driving but the only transit between Queens and the Bronx is the Q44 & Q50.  I can drive from eastern Queens to Bay Plaza/Co-op City (or even New Rochelle!) in 20-30 minutes, by public transportation that would take TWO HOURS with good connections! 

If they want to discourage driving they need to improve transit options, convenience, costs and speeds.

Right.  This is one of the reasons I would be looking at extending the to The Bronx (most likely to Jacobi Medical Center), doing it so there are transfers to the  and  at East 180 and the  at Elder/Westchester Avenue (plus introduce an OOS transfer at Queens/Queensboro Plaza).   This would give those in Queens and The Bronx a way to go between those boroughs without going through Manhattan.  

[bobtehpanda]

19 hours ago, N6 Limited said:

So your're charged the fee to enter the zone but not charged to exit. Will it then be "free" to use the Queens Midtown and Brooklyn Battery Tunnels to exit Manhattan?

It would be under the current proposal. 

19 hours ago, BreeddekalbL said:

There will be a protest about it i guarantee that any goods being shipped in you will see a price hike

This is so stupid. Do you know how many goods a truck can hold? Do you know how small the toll would be relative to all the goods in that truck?

[peacemak3r]

On 1/19/2018 at 3:08 PM, N6 Limited said:

If they want to discourage driving they need to improve transit options, convenience, costs and speeds.

This.

On 1/19/2018 at 3:15 PM, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

That's all fine and good, but there are plenty of people driving all over the city that really aren't saving any time. They just sit in traffic, so I don't fully buy the excuse that so much time is saved.  

People that sit in traffic, don't know their sense of traffic. When I worked in Queens and had to travel into Manhattan and back, I can easily handle this with a car rather take mass transportation.

Luckily for me, I don't drive into Manhattan during peak hours anymore, only at night if I have to attend a dinner and such. Beats waiting to take a subway 3 in the morning where I can get home in about 40 minutes.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

On 1/20/2018 at 10:36 PM, N6 Limited said:

So your're charged the fee to enter the zone but not charged to exit. Will it then be "free" to use the Queens Midtown and Brooklyn Battery Tunnels to exit Manhattan?

They are thinking about lowering the tolls in the outer boroughs to counter the congestion pricing. It only applies to those ENTERING the congested zones, NOT leaving them, so there's a fee of $11.52 each time.  

[N6 Limited]

52 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

They are thinking about lowering the tolls in the outer boroughs to counter the congestion pricing. It only applies to those ENTERING the congested zones, NOT leaving them, so there's a fee of $11.52 each time.  

Yes, so I was trying to figure out the logistics if you use the currently tolled crossings (Queens Midtown and Battery Tunnels) :

1. Do you pay $5.76 to use the tunnel, then a $5.76 step up congestion charge once you're in the zone, which would then make the return toll $5.76 get waived?
2. Or will they effectively increase the inbound toll to $11.52 and and make it one way.

 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

18 minutes ago, N6 Limited said:

Yes, so I was trying to figure out the logistics if you use the currently tolled crossings (Queens Midtown and Battery Tunnels) :

1. Do you pay $5.76 to use the tunnel, then a $5.76 step up congestion charge once you're in the zone, which would then make the return toll $5.76 get waived?
2. Or will they effectively increase the inbound toll to $11.52 and and make it one way.

 

The congestion fee is completely SEPARATE of any tolled crossings.  If you live in Manhattan and enter the congestion zone, you will pay $11.52.  If you live in Queens or the other outerboroughs and enter the congestion zone, you will pay whatever tolls you have to pay and THEN the congestion fee.  Again the idea is to DETER driving, not encourage it, so yes it's expensive and it should be.  Use public transit to enter Manhattan and leave your car at home.  The monies collected for the congestion fee will go to improving transportation as it should.

[N6 Limited]

12 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

The congestion fee is completely SEPARATE of any tunnels.  If you live in Manhattan and enter the congestion zone, you will pay $11.52.  If you live in Queens or the other outerboroughs and enter the congestion zone, you will pay whatever tolls you have to pay and THEN the congestion fee.  Again the idea is to DETER driving not encourage it, so yes it's expensive and it should be.  Use public transit to enter Manhattan and leave your car at home.  The monies collected for the congestion fee will go to improving transportation as it should.

I understand the fee is "separate", but it really isn't. If you enter from NJ, the PANYNJ tolls cover the congestion charge. If you use a "free" crossing from Brooklyn you pay the congestion charge. If you use a tolled crossing, then you're still paying an additional $5.76 total to enter the zone which totals up to $11.52. They're not going "double toll" as mentioned in the report. 

IF they're not going to double toll and you're all ready in the zone, they either have to remove the outbound tolls on the tunnels or credit/waive them.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

1 minute ago, N6 Limited said:

I understand the fee is "separate", but it really isn't. If you enter from NJ, the PANYNJ tolls cover the congestion charge. If you use a "free" crossing from Brooklyn you pay the congestion charge. If you use a tolled crossing, then you're still paying an additional $5.76 total to enter the zone which totals up to $11.52. They're not going "double toll" as mentioned in the report. 

IF they're not going to double toll and you're all ready in the zone, they either have to remove the outbound tolls on the tunnels or credit/waive them.

I'm sure there will be adjustments either way so I just hope it passes because it is needed.  I am sick of leaving and earlier and sitting in more and more traffic, and getting anywhere with the subways is just as bad.