Bronx Bus Network Redesign Draft Plan is Coming

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

On 6/12/2019 at 12:17 PM, bobtehpanda said:

 

I think even that is too circuitous; ideally such a route should be as point-to-point as possible.

This is my version of it: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1rovDnAomUo5Y50w0EWqoyJNuRsBd5Q_1&usp=sharing

I considered a stop at Northern, but none of the options for getting to Northern from Jackson Heights is particularly good.

I disagree with having the route be point-to-point. 

The route isn't just about Jackson Heights. There are other communities (parts of Astoria, LIC, Woodside) which would also be interested having a faster trip towards the South Bronx (at the very least). The to NB (and the reverse) is a more common transfer scenario than one would think. With the unreliability of the (especially on weekends), having a bus essentially compete with the can work. Plus, it makes it easier for those residents to catch said bus. 

There's demand from Western Queens for Bronx travel, but it isn't necessarily concentrated in certain areas like in eastern Queens with the Q44. Demand levels also aren't as high, so having a point-to-point route would essentially make it inconvenient for potential users because it's far from them, or still requires a bus ride (where the bus frequencies aren't the best). Ideally, you'd have to serve as much as possible, without being slow or too circuitous. 

 

Edited June 14, 2019 by BM5 via Woodhaven

[bobtehpanda]

4 hours ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

I disagree with having the route be point-to-point. 

The route isn't just about Jackson Heights. There are other communities (parts of Astoria, LIC, Woodside) which would also be interested having a faster trip towards the South Bronx (at the very least). The to NB (and the reverse) is a more common transfer scenario than one would think. With the unreliability of the (especially on weekends), having a bus essentially compete with the can work. Plus, it makes it easier for those residents to catch said bus. 

There's demand from Western Queens for Bronx travel, but it isn't necessarily concentrated in certain areas like in eastern Queens with the Q44. Demand levels also aren't as high, so having a point-to-point route would essentially make it inconvenient for potential users because it's far from them, or still requires a bus ride (where the bus frequencies aren't the best). Ideally, you'd have to serve as much as possible, without being slow or too circuitous. 

 

Departing at 5PM on a Friday, a more point-to-point route from Astoria Blvd is described as 9-20 minute drive, whereas your route is described as a 20-40 minute drive; and this is before we consider the fact that your route almost certainly has more stops. The added time is enough to be a dealbreaker.

IMO point to point from the Hub to Jackson Heights is very important; even with a two-fare trip it's much faster than the subway, and with an unlimited the second fare is basically irrelevant. Your alternative options are divert very far south for the or even further for the  ; and if you're headed somewhere like LaGuardia then best of luck. For local travel to the South Bronx you could always transfer buses, and then cross-borough travel wouldn't be impacted as badly by unreliability on the more "local" portions of route.

[NBTA]

On 6/13/2019 at 10:06 PM, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

I disagree with having the route be point-to-point. 

The route isn't just about Jackson Heights. There are other communities (parts of Astoria, LIC, Woodside) which would also be interested having a faster trip towards the South Bronx (at the very least). The to NB (and the reverse) is a more common transfer scenario than one would think. With the unreliability of the (especially on weekends), having a bus essentially compete with the can work. Plus, it makes it easier for those residents to catch said bus. 

There's demand from Western Queens for Bronx travel, but it isn't necessarily concentrated in certain areas like in eastern Queens with the Q44. Demand levels also aren't as high, so having a point-to-point route would essentially make it inconvenient for potential users because it's far from them, or still requires a bus ride (where the bus frequencies aren't the best). Ideally, you'd have to serve as much as possible, without being slow or too circuitous. 

 

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1NeKiPUFLC4n-_Ea_4EnmlQS0HkeLOJP0&usp=sharing

Here's an updated map, using what you said, the Bx45 is the original route that I thought would work.

[B35 via Church]

On ‎6‎/‎13‎/‎2019 at 10:06 PM, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

I disagree with having the route be point-to-point. 

The route isn't just about Jackson Heights. There are other communities (parts of Astoria, LIC, Woodside) which would also be interested having a faster trip towards the South Bronx (at the very least). The to NB (and the reverse) is a more common transfer scenario than one would think. With the unreliability of the (especially on weekends), having a bus essentially compete with the can work. Plus, it makes it easier for those residents to catch said bus. 

There's demand from Western Queens for Bronx travel, but it isn't necessarily concentrated in certain areas like in eastern Queens with the Q44. Demand levels also aren't as high, so having a point-to-point route would essentially make it inconvenient for potential users because it's far from them, or still requires a bus ride (where the bus frequencies aren't the best). Ideally, you'd have to serve as much as possible, without being slow or too circuitous. 

Looks like you're making this more about coverage, when it's more about connectivity.....

Now I'm not really too too gung-ho about this South Bronx - Jackson Hgts. route bit (my main concern is centered around demand from a Bronxite's perspective; I don't see too many of them taking the route; especially past the Astoria Line), but if it were to exist, I'd concur with BobPanda's POV on this one; I mean, you start adding a bunch of stops to a route like that, and it's not going to be nearly as attractive.... What you're suggesting having this South Bronx - Jackson Heights route do, is akin to having the Q70 serve more of Jackson Heights (outside of LIRR Woodside & 74th st/Moore Terminal) and East Elmhurst (outside of the airport itself).....

If your aim is to make it a coverage route, you're going to need to have it serve a hell of a lot more of the Bronx than just up to the Hub.....

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

10 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

Looks like you're making this more about coverage, when it's more about connectivity.....

Now I'm not really too too gung-ho about this South Bronx - Jackson Hgts. route bit (my main concern is centered around demand from a Bronxite's perspective; I don't see too many of them taking the route; especially past the Astoria Line), but if it were to exist, I'd concur with BobPanda's POV on this one; I mean, you start adding a bunch of stops to a route like that, and it's not going to be nearly as attractive.... What you're suggesting having this South Bronx - Jackson Heights route do, is akin to having the Q70 serve more of Jackson Heights (outside of LIRR Woodside & 74th st/Moore Terminal) and East Elmhurst (outside of the airport itself).....

If your aim is to make it a coverage route, you're going to need to have it serve a hell of a lot more of the Bronx than just up to the Hub.....

I believe both coverage and connectivity need to be addressed. There are Queens residents who do go up to the Bronx (but there's a lesser amount of Bronx residents going to Queens). Like I mentioned before, it doesn't have to be a local bus route, if it is not going to be point-to-point. It can be a limited-stop route, so that way it doesn't actually steal off riders on the local routes it would run along (and slowing down service), and so that the bus isn't making a whole bunch of stops. The particular route I had in mind would have five additional stops compared to bobtehpanda's route. The main issues with such a routing would for the most part be the area around Steinway & Broadway.

I do agree that though that such a route should go past The Hub, if it were to also serve more areas in Queens. I was thinking of having such an alignment run in conjunction with the Bx15 LTD on 3rd Avenue. It would provide 3rd Avenue with additional bus service as well, and allow for connections to crosstown buses.

Edited June 16, 2019 by BM5 via Woodhaven

[bobtehpanda]

1 hour ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

I believe both coverage and connectivity need to be addressed. There are Queens residents who do go up to the Bronx (but there's a lesser amount of Bronx residents going to Queens). Like I mentioned before, it doesn't have to be a local bus route, if it is not going to be point-to-point. It can be a limited-stop route, so that way it doesn't actually steal off riders on the local routes it would run along (and slowing down service), and so that the bus isn't making a whole bunch of stops. The particular route I had in mind would have five additional stops compared to bobtehpanda's route. The main issues with such a routing would for the most part be the area around Steinway & Broadway.

I do agree that though that such a route should go past The Hub, if it were to also serve more areas in Queens. I was thinking of having such an alignment run in conjunction with the Bx15 LTD on 3rd Avenue. It would provide 3rd Avenue with additional bus service as well, and allow for connections to crosstown buses.

I think that if you want coverage and connectivity, you actually want two separate routes, because one route doing both does not work out too well.

I kind of said "the Hub" as a northern endpoint, because making the route go to say, Fordham Plaza, would make such a route even using my more limited routing 10 miles long, through lots of congestion. I would rather not create crazy-ass unreliable Frankenstein routes doing a poor job at many things. That being said, it would be pretty similar to the Bx50 proposed by DOT at one point, which was Fordham Plaza - LGA via Webster.

[B35 via Church]

15 hours ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

I believe both coverage and connectivity need to be addressed. There are Queens residents who do go up to the Bronx (but there's a lesser amount of Bronx residents going to Queens). Like I mentioned before, it doesn't have to be a local bus route, if it is not going to be point-to-point. It can be a limited-stop route, so that way it doesn't actually steal off riders on the local routes it would run along (and slowing down service), and so that the bus isn't making a whole bunch of stops. The particular route I had in mind would have five additional stops compared to bobtehpanda's route. The main issues with such a routing would for the most part be the area around Steinway & Broadway.

I do agree that though that such a route should go past The Hub, if it were to also serve more areas in Queens. I was thinking of having such an alignment run in conjunction with the Bx15 LTD on 3rd Avenue. It would provide 3rd Avenue with additional bus service as well, and allow for connections to crosstown buses.

Between the Bronx & Western/Northwestern part of Queens, I think coverage is a non-issue & I would be hesitant about actually creating a bus route that would address the network connectivity issue.... You're not really going to have a coverage route effectively address the connectivity issue of the sort - and to be quite frank, I think you're grossly exaggerating any demand that exists b/w the South Bronx & the confines of Queens CB1..... Astoria & friends (lol) are pretty vociferous when it comes to public transportation, and unless you know something I don't, I have not once ever read or heard anything about better/direct access to the Bronx.... What I'm more inclined to believe is that you'd like to test the waters with a route of sorts, as opposed to there being some existing/latent demand that would support the creation of a bus route of sorts to fulfill a coverage gap......

A point to point route, or a fixed route making as minimal stops as possible, makes the most sense for a route of sorts....

14 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

I think that if you want coverage and connectivity, you actually want two separate routes....

....and bingo was his name-o.

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

4 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

Between the Bronx & Western/Northwestern part of Queens, I think coverage is a non-issue & I would be hesitant about actually creating a bus route that would address the network connectivity issue.... You're not really going to have a coverage route effectively address the connectivity issue of the sort - and to be quite frank, I think you're grossly exaggerating any demand that exists b/w the South Bronx & the confines of Queens CB1..... Astoria & friends (lol) are pretty vociferous when it comes to public transportation, and unless you know something I don't, I have not once ever read or heard anything about better/direct access to the Bronx.... What I'm more inclined to believe is that you'd like to test the waters with a route of sorts, as opposed to there being some existing/latent demand that would support the creation of a bus route of sorts to fulfill a coverage gap......

A point to point route, or a fixed route making as minimal stops as possible, makes the most sense for a route of sorts....

....and bingo was his name-o.

I'm not saying that there are great amounts of people looking for Bronx travel, but there's a few areas which would use the service if provided. However, I believe having more than one route currently would be too much. Having one route which isn't too far but close enough to those areas IMO would fill up more, because not only do you have those riders but anyone in East Elmhurst/Northern Jackson Heights that's transferring off buses (either the Q19, Q66, or M60). The only way I see this changing is if the South Bronx area south of 149th gentrifies enough (IDK where they come from, but there's hipster types already strolling around in the area along 138th and Third), and if those people choose to or desire travel towards Western Queens (or from Western Queens to the Bronx). Otherwise, having multiple western Queens-Bronx routes is overkill. 

Theoretically If two routes were to be created, with one of them being a route like bobtehpanda drew, the other I guess would be either a 21st or 31st Street route (or some hybrid of that) , but then that would need to be reworked into the Queens network. 

19 hours ago, bobtehpanda said:

I think that if you want coverage and connectivity, you actually want two separate routes, because one route doing both does not work out too well.

I kind of said "the Hub" as a northern endpoint, because making the route go to say, Fordham Plaza, would make such a route even using my more limited routing 10 miles long, through lots of congestion. I would rather not create crazy-ass unreliable Frankenstein routes doing a poor job at many things. That being said, it would be pretty similar to the Bx50 proposed by DOT at one point, which was Fordham Plaza - LGA via Webster.

While your points are true regarding an extension up to Fordham Plaza, it wouldn't be such an issue if there were dedicated bus lanes on most or all of Third Avenue. 

 

Edited June 16, 2019 by BM5 via Woodhaven

[Lawrence St]

Wasnt there also a proposal in a document to have bus service to Empire City Casino and a LGA bus from Fordham Plaza?