Bronx Bus Network Redesign Draft Plan is Coming

[bobtehpanda]

10 hours ago, danielhg121 said:

The whole Bx23 thing is just asking for the route to bunch. I see the Bx23 buses that pull into Edson/Bartow, they never exceed standing capacity and most of the time, less than that even but the MTA basically wants to increase the frequency on a fairly short route and have all the riders get dispersed to where they’re going after that. I still think the bunching will cause uneven gaps in service and that’ll deter ridership which allows them to cut service later on.

I really hope they decide to make it fare free otherwise, ur screwing over Co-Op City residents.

At a three-minute frequency, does bunching really matter?

There comes a point where you run so many buses that maintaining schedule is impossible and you shouldn't even bother.

[JeremiahC99]

26 minutes ago, Missabassie said:

So basically they'll just make it +Selectbus+ & call it a day. (I'm not necessarily advocating for that by the way)

Not necessarily since Select Bus is usually for buses making limited stops on a certain corridor. The Bx23 is merely a loop route serving every section of the neighborhood, terminating at the Pelham Bay Park  station, connecting with other routes along the way. I will admit that some aspect of the SBS should be added here, such as faster boarding. Also, it should have a separate branding and it’s fare waived. I propose they call it the “Co-op City Link”, and it should be free.

27 minutes ago, Missabassie said:

Ooohh god.....

What is wrong with one single route traversing Fulton Street and Livingston Street In Brooklyn whole having other routes truncated to an area just outside the corridor. No one is losing access to the Downtown Area from the outer neighborhoods. That’s outrageous.

[GojiMet86]

I thought for sure this redesign would result in some Bronx-Queens local via the Triboro, but I guess not.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

@JubaionBx12+SBS @checkmatechamp13 The BxM10/BxM6 combo concerns me because I don't think they're going to have enough service.  The BxM10 is #2 in ridership on weekends and the BxM6 is #9.  Despite claims that they perform "poorly" the BxM10 is only behind the BxM7 in terms of ridership.  I'm very concerned about overcrowding because even though the BxM6 on serves three stops, the first two can fill up an entire bus at times. I have used both the BxM6 and BxM10 extensively on weekends. Having only hourly service won't cut it. If it goes through, it will be very interesting to say the least.

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

43 minutes ago, Via Garibaldi 8 said:

@JubaionBx12+SBS @checkmatechamp13 The BxM10/BxM6 combo concerns me because I don't think they're going to have enough service.  The BxM10 is #2 in ridership on weekends and the BxM6 is #9.  Despite claims that they perform "poorly" the BxM10 is only behind the BxM7 in terms of ridership.  I'm very concerned about overcrowding because even though the BxM6 on serves three stops, the first two can fill up an entire bus at times. I have used both the BxM6 and BxM10 extensively on weekends. Having only hourly service won't cut it. If it goes through, it will be very interesting to say the least.

If they run all BxM10 buses through, then they should be able to fit (initially) since for a particular hour, some would choose one bus (and some would choose the other). The 30 minute headways might prove to be attractive for Parkchester residents though, which is both good and bad.

Yeah, I agree though, the BxM6 is not to be underestimated. I've seen trips on Saturdays in particular with very good loads.

Edited June 2, 2019 by BM5 via Woodhaven

[Via Garibaldi 8]

2 minutes ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

If they run all BxM10 buses through, then they should be able to fit (initially) since for a particular hour, some would choose one bus (and some would choose the other). The 30 minute headways might prove to be attractive for Parkchester residents though, which is both good and bad.

Yeah, I agree though, the BxM6 is not to be underestimated. I've seen trips on Saturdays in particular with very good loads.

Well that's what you have to hope, but we know that the BxM6 runs on the hour now on the weekends, and I normally boarded at the first stop to ensure I had a good seat. Well that stop is the furthest away from the  and that and the second one are the two big ones. That first stop is basically half of the ridership right there, and even with the second stop being by the  it's a big one because the bus is basically a Super Express version of the  so three stops and you're on the Cross Bronx Expressway. Some of the earlier trips back to Morris Park will be fine though. We had one instance one weekend where the BxM6 didn't show up to Parkchester and the BxM10 made all stops and dropped us off. That's fine, because it was early on a Sunday morning going to the Bronx, but going to Manhattan is another animal.

[Missabassie]

On 6/2/2019 at 5:45 PM, JeremiahC99 said:

Not necessarily since Select Bus is usually for buses making limited stops on a certain corridor. The Bx23 is merely a loop route serving every section of the neighborhood, terminating at the Pelham Bay Park  station, connecting with other routes along the way. I will admit that some aspect of the SBS should be added here, such as faster boarding. Also, it should have a separate branding and it’s fare waived. I propose they call it the “Co-op City Link”, and it should be free.

What is wrong with one single route traversing Fulton Street and Livingston Street In Brooklyn whole having other routes truncated to an area just outside the corridor. No one is losing access to the Downtown Area from the outer neighborhoods. That’s outrageous.

What I was getting at was at one point there was a proposal to make crosstown buses free. Instead they're going the +SBS+ way. With off-board payment some will ''choose'' to pay fare while others won't, Happens all the time.

As for Brooklyn, truncating routes outside Downtown Bklyn forcing a transfer to a single loop-shuttle or whatever dosen't sound too great. A setup like that would work with trains, but becomes complicated with buses. I guess we could say the B37 was the start of this.

[JeremiahC99]

1 hour ago, Missabassie said:

What I was getting at was at one point there was a proposal to make crosstown buses free. Instead they're going the +SBS+ way. With off-board payment some will ''choose'' to pay fare while others won't, Happens all the time.

As for Brooklyn, truncating routes outside Downtown Bklyn forcing a transfer to a single loop-shuttle or whatever dosen't sound too great. A setup like that would work with trains, but becomes complicated with buses. I guess we could say the B37 was the start of this.

Wow. Maybe they should really embrace making some of the routes free like the loop, shuttle, and crosstown routes. Why are they not doing this now?

As for the Brooklyn opinion, please read my response in the Brooklyn Division Proposals thread.

[Lex]

8 hours ago, JeremiahC99 said:

Wow. Maybe they should really embrace making some of the routes free like the loop, shuttle, and crosstown routes. Why are they not doing this now?

Because those don't function primarily (or at all) as bustitution, and politicians can be rather stingy with capital funding (to say nothing of operations).

8 hours ago, JeremiahC99 said:

As for the Brooklyn opinion, please read my response in the Brooklyn Division Proposals thread.

Still trying to push that 💩, I see.

[ConCraftGaming]

On 6/1/2019 at 11:04 AM, checkmatechamp13 said:

The old pattern where the local went further out than the limited made no sense. But in any case I don't think it will be too bad. There is a lot of turnover at 149th Street anyway

As someone who regularly takes the Bx15, I disagree. Sure, during the morning rush, not many people stay on past 149th, but Bx15 Limiteds become fairly crowded before 149th Street during the PM rush and on weekends. Having an M125 will cause more overcrowding on the already crowded 2 and 5 trains and will also cause the bus stop to be more overcrowded as well.

[NBTA]

On 6/2/2019 at 6:45 PM, GojiMet86 said:

I thought for sure this redesign would result in some Bronx-Queens local via the Triboro, but I guess not.

I see why they didn't do it, because the Triboro isn't the best bridge when it comes to traveling between the Bronx and Queens. But, it would be very useful, especially if it heads to Jackson Heights, or Queens Plaza. 

[Orion6025]

Speaking of Bronx-Queens services, what became of that Co-Op to Jamaica idea that was referenced in one of the early Bx redesign pamphlets? That seemed promising as well.

Perhaps all these Bronx-Queens local services are being tabled for consideration under the Queens bus redesign program?

[MysteriousBtrain]

45 minutes ago, Orion6025 said:

Speaking of Bronx-Queens services, what became of that Co-Op to Jamaica idea that was referenced in one of the early Bx redesign pamphlets? That seemed promising as well.

Perhaps all these Bronx-Queens local services are being tabled for consideration under the Queens bus redesign program?

That was more coverage ideas. Not really needed since you could just do Q44<->Q50.

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

1 hour ago, NBTA said:

I see why they didn't do it, because the Triboro isn't the best bridge when it comes to traveling between the Bronx and Queens. But, it would be very useful, especially if it heads to Jackson Heights, or Queens Plaza. 

A route from Jackson Heights to The Hub can work, if routed properly.

[Gotham Bus Co.]

3 hours ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

A route from Jackson Heights to The Hub can work, if routed properly.

 

How much demand is there for travel from Jackson Heights to the Hub? Is it faster by subway? 

[NBTA]

Just now, Gotham Bus Co. said:

 

How much demand is there for travel from Jackson Heights to the Hub? Is it faster by subway? 

I personally don't think it has to be faster by any means, just serving a high density area, as well as providing for another, can work for both the Bronx and Queens.

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

4 hours ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

 

How much demand is there for travel from Jackson Heights to the Hub? Is it faster by subway? 

It's not just about travel between those two intermediate points, it's about the connections along the way (and in both areas). Such a route would also end up serving Mott Haven as well in some way. No one said the route has to be a point to point route.

In either scenario, given the QBL, a bus would be faster. Therr are quite a few people using the to the to go to the Bronx, but more people use the in Western Queens for Lex Avenue service to the Bronx (for obvious reasons). 

[bobtehpanda]

5 hours ago, Gotham Bus Co. said:

Is it faster by subway? 

The subway is 40 minutes.

Google Maps gives the distance of a route via 3rd and the Major Deegan/Triboro at under 7 miles; if you only stopped at 138 St and Astoria you could definitely beat 40 minutes.

[NBTA]

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1NeKiPUFLC4n-_Ea_4EnmlQS0HkeLOJP0&usp=sharing

Here's a map on how I think a local Bronx-Queens Via Tri-borough route would look, if you guys want me to change anything (or if the link doesn't work), then let me know.

[BM5 via Woodhaven]

6 hours ago, NBTA said:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1NeKiPUFLC4n-_Ea_4EnmlQS0HkeLOJP0&usp=sharing

Here's a map on how I think a local Bronx-Queens Via Tri-borough route would look, if you guys want me to change anything (or if the link doesn't work), then let me know.

That route is a little circuitous (and in the wrong areas too). There aren't too many areas north of Astoria Boulevard in Western Queens looking for Bronx travel. Virtually nobody east of 31st Street and north of Astoria is looking for Bronx travel. Most of it comes from points south. 

I personally would have such a route operate as a limited stop service via from 74th Street via 73/74 Streets, Northern Boulevard, Broadway, Steinway Street, then head on Astoria Boulevard and across the Triborough onto the Bronx. Buses in the Bronx can travel along 138 Street and Willis Avenue to get to The Hub. Maybe for even greater connectivity, buses can also operate to Yankee Stadium via Melrose Avenue & E 161 Street (but such a route should at the very least go to The Hub).

Edited June 9, 2019 by BM5 via Woodhaven

[NBTA]

10 hours ago, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

That route is a little circuitous (and in the wrong areas too). There aren't too many areas north of Astoria Boulevard in Western Queens looking for Bronx travel. Virtually nobody east of 31st Street and north of Astoria is looking for Bronx travel. Most of it comes from points south. 

I personally would have such a route operate as a limited stop service via from 74th Street via 73/74 Streets, Northern Boulevard, Broadway, Steinway Street, then head on Astoria Boulevard and across the Triborough onto the Bronx. Buses in the Bronx can travel along 138 Street and Willis Avenue to get to The Hub. Maybe for even greater connectivity, buses can also operate to Yankee Stadium via Melrose Avenue & E 161 Street (but such a route should at the very least go to The Hub).

I'll make this route in the next coming day or so, pretty busy these next two days.

[B35 via Church]

On ‎6‎/‎2‎/‎2019 at 1:21 AM, checkmatechamp13 said:

Actually, if anything I would say they want Bee Line to still help out in covering Boston Road (for the simple reason that it's fewer buses NYCT has to run). Think about it, most of the other Bee Line routes just travel over the city line to the closest subway station (or slightly further in. I know the 4/20/21 end at BPB, the 42 ends at 233rd Street, and the 52 ends at the Boston-Secor Houses). The 60/61/62 travel for a few miles before they reach their actual terminal, so NYCT probably figures they might as well take some passengers while they're at it. So they'll still get the people traveling past Bronx Park East who don't want to transfer to the Bx12/22.

Exactly what came to mind upon seeing the termination of this proposed Bx30 at Pelham Pkwy. .... So few people will consider taking the Bx30 out of Co-op with such a service change, it isn't even funny...... The Boston rd. folks will still gravitate (more) towards the 60/61, simply because it'd actually take them to actual PTI's (points of interest).....

On ‎6‎/‎2‎/‎2019 at 6:47 AM, danielhg121 said:

The whole Bx23 thing is just asking for the route to bunch. I see the Bx23 buses that pull into Edson/Bartow, they never exceed standing capacity and most of the time, less than that even but the MTA basically wants to increase the frequency on a fairly short route and have all the riders get dispersed to where they’re going after that. I still think the bunching will cause uneven gaps in service and that’ll deter ridership which allows them to cut service later on.

I really hope they decide to make it fare free otherwise, ur screwing over Co-Op City residents.

There's something to be said when the QBx1 b/w PBP  & Co-Op garnered more riders than the very Bx23 (that was carved from the QBx1) currently garners b/w the same exact two points.....

They never really tried to make the Bx23 more attractive (IMO, it was more or less a "here, take it because it exists.... oh, and you're welcome" sort of deal).... As a compromise to having split the QBx1, the Q50 runs up to (co-op) - but along the edge of the community, en route to the isolated section 5.... So it more or less became a "do you want the LTD with less immediate coverage, or the sporadic local that maintains said coverage" sort of ordeal..... Now they want to take the quote-unquote LTD away & forcefeed a bunch of quote-unquote local service to/from the  onto people....

TL:DR - The Bx23 runs like shit.

On ‎6‎/‎2‎/‎2019 at 10:25 AM, Union Tpke said:

Here is Alon Levy's take on the plan. I am interested in hearing your responses.

The shape of the network in the core of the Bronx – that is, the South Bronx – seems reasonable. I have just one major complaint: the Bx3 and Bx13 keep running on University Avenue and Ogden Avenue respectively and do not interline, but rather divert west along Washington Bridge to Washington Heights. For all of the strong communal ties between University Heights and Washington Heights, this service can be handled with a high-frequency transfer at the foot of the bridge, which has other east-west buses interlining on it. The subway transfer offered at the Washington Heights end is low-quality, consisting of just the 1 train at the GWB bus station; a University-Ogden route could instead offer people in University Heights a transfer to faster subway lines at Yankee Stadium.

The ignorance being spewed in this one paragraph alone is astounding.... Pretty much sums up what I think about the guy overall; an intellectualizer of bullshit.....

A high frequency transfer for a low quality  at GWB.... Novel concept... SMH..
(nevermind the fact that the connection to the 1 at St. Nicholas av. isn't even the main reason the majority of Bronxites take buses over the bridge to/from Washington Heights)

What do some of you see in this guy anyway.....

Edited June 10, 2019 by B35 via Church

[Around the Horn]

13 hours ago, B35 via Church said:

The shape of the network in the core of the Bronx – that is, the South Bronx – seems reasonable. I have just one major complaint: the Bx3 and Bx13 keep running on University Avenue and Ogden Avenue respectively and do not interline, but rather divert west along Washington Bridge to Washington Heights. For all of the strong communal ties between University Heights and Washington Heights, this service can be handled with a high-frequency transfer at the foot of the bridge, which has other east-west buses interlining on it. The subway transfer offered at the Washington Heights end is low-quality, consisting of just the 1 train at the GWB bus station; a University-Ogden route could instead offer people in University Heights a transfer to faster subway lines at Yankee Stadium.

 

The ignorance being spewed in this one paragraph alone is astounding.... Pretty much sums up what I think about the guy overall; an intellectualizer of bullshit.....

A high frequency transfer for a low quality  at GWB.... Novel concept... SMH..
(nevermind the fact that the connection to the 1 at St. Nicholas av. isn't even the main reason the majority of Bronxites take buses over the bridge to/from Washington Heights)

What do some of you see in this guy anyway.....

Somehow I completely missed that part about the train...

Completely ignored or forgot about the train SMH

[bobtehpanda]

On 6/10/2019 at 7:36 AM, B35 via Church said:

What do some of you see in this guy anyway.....

He was the first one to actually compare subway costs (NY vs globally).

That being said, being right in one thing doesn't make you right in everything, and he likes dressing up opinions as fact.

Edited June 12, 2019 by bobtehpanda

[bobtehpanda]

On 6/9/2019 at 4:04 AM, NBTA said:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1NeKiPUFLC4n-_Ea_4EnmlQS0HkeLOJP0&usp=sharing

Here's a map on how I think a local Bronx-Queens Via Tri-borough route would look, if you guys want me to change anything (or if the link doesn't work), then let me know.

 

On 6/9/2019 at 10:40 AM, BM5 via Woodhaven said:

That route is a little circuitous (and in the wrong areas too). There aren't too many areas north of Astoria Boulevard in Western Queens looking for Bronx travel. Virtually nobody east of 31st Street and north of Astoria is looking for Bronx travel. Most of it comes from points south. 

I personally would have such a route operate as a limited stop service via from 74th Street via 73/74 Streets, Northern Boulevard, Broadway, Steinway Street, then head on Astoria Boulevard and across the Triborough onto the Bronx. Buses in the Bronx can travel along 138 Street and Willis Avenue to get to The Hub. Maybe for even greater connectivity, buses can also operate to Yankee Stadium via Melrose Avenue & E 161 Street (but such a route should at the very least go to The Hub).

I think even that is too circuitous; ideally such a route should be as point-to-point as possible.

This is my version of it: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1rovDnAomUo5Y50w0EWqoyJNuRsBd5Q_1&usp=sharing

I considered a stop at Northern, but none of the options for getting to Northern from Jackson Heights is particularly good.