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Union Tpke

More delays on projects due to G.O. Incompetance

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15 hours ago, paulrivera said:

The (D) can’t absorb every (4) rider (and vice versa) without doubling service on the remaining line, which the (MTA) won’t do except for the occasional Concourse FASTRACK. Just because the (D) and (4) co-exist in the Bronx doesn’t mean one of the lines can get cut and the other kept as-is. Both lines carry very well when they’re both running.

(A) local from 168th to 59th St; run (D) at 6 minutes with some doing a short-turn at 2nd Av, and Bob’s your uncle.

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58 minutes ago, Deucey said:

(A) local from 168th to 59th St; run (D) at 6 minutes with some doing a short-turn at 2nd Av, and Bob’s your uncle.

And have some special (B) trains run between 161st and 145th St.

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1 hour ago, Lawrence St said:

And have some special (B) trains run between 161st and 145th St.

Folks really act like it’s complicated when the hardest part really is changing the rollsigns on R68/A.

Uptown, when they shut down (A), there’s (1). When they shut down (1), there’s (A). And both still originate at the uptown yards during either situation...

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5 minutes ago, Deucey said:

Folks really act like it’s complicated when the hardest part really is changing the rollsigns on R68/A.

Uptown, when they shut down (A), there’s (1). When they shut down (1), there’s (A). And both still originate at the uptown yards during either situation...

Exactly. If the issue is capacity, find other places to short turn.

Work on 4th Av and West End? Send the extra (D) trains to 2nd Av.

Work on CPW? Either increase the amount of (D) trains between 145th St and Bedford Park, or send the (A) local.

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58 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

Work on 4th Av and West End? Send the extra (D) trains to 2nd Av.

Or run them on Culver or Brighton and switch at Lafayette or West 4th - if the former...

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I like these ideas. These ideas are very sound and very good. The problem is the (MTA) won't do them. Part of it is money, part of it is an unwillingness to think outside the box with a small layer of bureaucratic mismanagement. Get them to pony up some cash, cut some of that red tape, and obtain some more creative middle management so they can follow along with your ideas.

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The work can be done and it has happened before. The Concourse line can handle its own plus Jerome. When I was younger I remember the (4) being shut down north of 161st St which was the last stop and the (D) was an option, shuttle buses were provided, the Bx32 runs via Jerome from Kingsbridge to 176th...lets not forget BPB is an ADA station so that satisfies transfers to the Beeline service. Concourse has its help even if (D) service isnt increased. The Bx1/2, and Express buses hold their share as well from Mosholu down to near 167th. It can be done but theres always an excuse for something now in days. Cant use Yankee games as an excuse as one can argue there are long stretches of away games.

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14 minutes ago, 2 Train Master said:

Cant use Yankee games as an excuse as one can argue there are long stretches of away games.

But it’s not like they couldn’t run trains to 167th, do the crew switch on the uptown platform, do a reverse on the center track, and start the run there.

It’d require precision, but it could be done and still move trains at normal frequencies.

 

Folks just don’t wanna.

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I'll answer in bold.

13 minutes ago, 2 Train Master said:

The work can be done and it has happened before. Yes, I know that. 

The Concourse line can handle its own plus Jerome. When I was younger I remember the (4) being shut down north of 161st St which was the last stop and the (D) was an option, shuttle buses were provided, the Bx32 runs via Jerome from Kingsbridge to 176th... The (D) ran 8 minute headways at the time, which it doesn't now, and the Bx32 runs every half hour on the weekends. And the shuttle buses only run between Woodlawn and Bedford Park.

lets not forget BPB is an ADA station so that satisfies transfers to the Beeline service. (4) - 100% false. (D) - Elevator construction is still in progress. The shuttle buses are useful to get from the Bee-Line to the (D) tho.

Concourse has its help even if (D) service isnt increased. The Bx1/2, and Express buses hold their share as well from Mosholu down to near 167th. It can be done but theres always an excuse for something now in days. Cant use Yankee games as an excuse as one can argue there are long stretches of away games. The express bus is about to be discontinued, and there's also soccer games sprinkled in (there were 3 this week alone.)

 

13 minutes ago, Deucey said:

But it’s not like they couldn’t run trains to 167th, do the crew switch on the uptown platform, do a reverse on the center track, and start the run there.

It’d require precision, but it could be done and still move trains at normal frequencies.

 

Folks just don’t wanna.

There would be extreme overcrowding with people transferring between the (4) and (D) and people going to and from the game at 161 on game days. And I'd wager a guess that they "don't wanna" start and stop this project every 5 days and have speed restrictions go on for weeks on end in between road trips. After October, rip the band-aid off and have at it, but Jesus Christ, we're not talking about a loser team in a dead ballpark here.

Are you people running on 1980's data or something?

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4 hours ago, paulrivera said:

I'll answer in bold.

 

There would be extreme overcrowding with people transferring between the (4) and (D) and people going to and from the game at 161 on game days. And I'd wager a guess that they "don't wanna" start and stop this project every 5 days and have speed restrictions go on for weeks on end in between road trips. After October, rip the band-aid off and have at it, but Jesus Christ, we're not talking about a loser team in a dead ballpark here.

Are you people running on 1980's data or something?

Then don't run the (4) on weekends when work must be done. The Yankees are nowhere near as important as the infrastructure, and the MTA can always beef up (D) service to compensate for the loss (maybe even have weekend (B) service for those in Brooklyn and the Bronx on the affected dates). If it's so damn important to see a sports game, look into watching it at home or using an alternative so the work can be done.

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9 hours ago, Deucey said:

But it’s not like they couldn’t run trains to 167th, do the crew switch on the uptown platform, do a reverse on the center track, and start the run there.

It’d require precision, but it could be done and still move trains at normal frequencies.

 

Folks just don’t wanna.

Thats how it works. Train crews end service at 161. Check the cars for any remaining passengers, train heads north and relays at 167th preparing for service at Yankee Stadium. One could argue why not terminate the (4) at 167th but there aren't any connections there aside from the Bx35 which runs via Highbridge

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9 hours ago, paulrivera said:

The work can be done and it has happened before. Yes, I know that. 

The Concourse line can handle its own plus Jerome. When I was younger I remember the (4) being shut down north of 161st St which was the last stop and the (D) was an option, shuttle buses were provided, the Bx32 runs via Jerome from Kingsbridge to 176th... The (D) ran 8 minute headways at the time, which it doesn't now, and the Bx32 runs every half hour on the weekends. And the shuttle buses only run between Woodlawn and Bedford Park.

lets not forget BPB is an ADA station so that satisfies transfers to the Beeline service. (4) - 100% false. (D) - Elevator construction is still in progress. The shuttle buses are useful to get from the Bee-Line to the (D) tho.

Concourse has its help even if (D) service isnt increased. The Bx1/2, and Express buses hold their share as well from Mosholu down to near 167th. It can be done but theres always an excuse for something now in days. Cant use Yankee games as an excuse as one can argue there are long stretches of away games. The express bus is about to be discontinued, and there's also soccer games sprinkled in (there were 3 this week alone.)

Then there shouldn't be any b.s for shutting down Jerome Line, can't we agree? I'm sure you grew up along the (4) and know what has been done and the weird services that are ran on that line.

Albeit the (D)'s headways are longer now that can be compensated with some short turns 2nd Av is an option. Bx32 schedule can be adjusted and prepared for the upcoming G.O, my apologies was thinking of 205th , anyways BPB needs and should have been ADA long ago especially with the college, high schools nearby. 

Even if the express buses didn't exist there is still extra service that can be provided for the Concourse Line. It wasn't that long ago the (4) was shut down north of Yankee Stadium, if it was like 20 to 30 years ago where population would be significant than 5 to 10 years I could understand but I still can't get over the petty excuses(Not you btw) for something that has been done before.

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7 hours ago, Lex said:

Then don't run the (4) on weekends when work must be done. The Yankees are nowhere near as important as the infrastructure, and the MTA can always beef up (D) service to compensate for the loss (maybe even have weekend (B) service for those in Brooklyn and the Bronx on the affected dates). If it's so damn important to see a sports game, look into watching it at home or using an alternative so the work can be done.

EXACTLY.

It's a baseball game, MTA should have their focus on infrastructure.

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12 hours ago, paulrivera said:

I'll answer in bold.

 

There would be extreme overcrowding with people transferring between the (4) and (D) and people going to and from the game at 161 on game days. And I'd wager a guess that they "don't wanna" start and stop this project every 5 days and have speed restrictions go on for weeks on end in between road trips. After October, rip the band-aid off and have at it, but Jesus Christ, we're not talking about a loser team in a dead ballpark here.

Are you people running on 1980's data or something?

No we are running on something called logic and common sense.

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Posted (edited)

Those wishing an alternative to ‘moar GOs’ have a point. NYCT has been doing weekend/midday work on the Jerome line for what feels like 3 years without seemingly any pause. I’m sure if you asked them they’d give you a laundry list of reasons why they *actually* can’t be efficient about it, but in a civilized city this whole mess would have been audited long ago. Once again, no one sucks at maintenance as much as we do.

Until then, I say find the weekends when CPW isn’t being tortured, schedule your raft of Jerome GOs for then, and run a (D) overlay. 

Edited by RR503
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13 minutes ago, RR503 said:

Those wishing an alternative to ‘moar GOs’ have a point. NYCT has been doing weekend/midday work on the Jerome line for what feels like 3 years without seemingly any pause. I’m sure if you asked them they’d give you a laundry list of reasons why they *actually* can’t be efficient about it, but in a civilized city this whole mess would have been audited long ago. Once again, no one sucks at maintenance as much as we do.

Until then, I say find the weekends when CPW isn’t being tortured, schedule your raft of Jerome GOs for then, and run a (D) overlay. 

Or run the surplus trains to 145th St...

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Would adding an infill station at 104th/CPW for the (2)(3) with a transfer to 103rd (B)(C) be beneficial? You’d give another connection to 7th and relive the transfers at 168th, 149th-GC, and 59th.

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45 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

Or run the surplus trains to 145th St...

By the time you’re running a shuttle that’ll likely spend more than half its trip time in relay, you need to rethink your work scheduling...167-145 isn’t a useful service. 

27 minutes ago, R68OnBroadway said:

Would adding an infill station at 104th/CPW for the (2)(3) with a transfer to 103rd (B)(C) be beneficial? You’d give another connection to 7th and relive the transfers at 168th, 149th-GC, and 59th.

Likely not. You’d get folks from 103-116 on CPW jump onto the already packed (2)(3), as no one loves that local run down CPW. 

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3 minutes ago, RR503 said:

By the time you’re running a shuttle that’ll likely spend more than half its trip time in relay, you need to rethink your work scheduling...167-145 isn’t a useful service. 

Likely not. You’d get folks from 103-116 on CPW jump onto the already packed (2)(3), as no one loves that local run down CPW. 

Surplus trains would come from Bedford Park.

Also, isnt the relay faster at 145th St since the (B) uses it?

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Lawrence St said:

Surplus trains would come from Bedford Park.

Also, isnt the relay faster at 145th St since the (B) uses it?

(B) terminates on the middle track from the south. This imaginary service would have to come down the local into 145, discharge, and relay on the express to come back north (is that even an allowed move??). 

There are places where I think overlays make sense, and I've suggested them in those places in the past. It just feels that here, there's a less heavy-handed solution to be had given the fact CPW work has drawn down significantly after ESI finished. 

Edited by RR503

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6 minutes ago, RR503 said:

(B) terminates on the middle track from the south. This imaginary service would have to come down the local into 145, discharge, and relay on the express to come back north (is that even an allowed move??). 

There are places where I think overlays make sense, and I've suggested them in those places in the past. It just feels that here, there's a less heavy-handed solution to be had given the fact CPW work has drawn down significantly after ESI finished. 

Several things

The (4) has had weekend GOs of either Alternating trains going north of Burnside or some closure for 20 weeks last year. Or a 4hr midday service via Trk M for about 26 weeks out of the year, I'm not going to parse out everyone, but suffice it to say a lot of this time goes to 'emergency repairs' and not even the prescribed repairs.

Anyway if you want to run a shuttle on the Concourse on top of the (D) and on top of the (S) specials, you would need to run the (A) local and relay at 135th on A4 as well as 145th at C3 to avoid plugging the line. That said people tend avoid shuttles when through service is available so it will be a waste of resources. Better off just running the Specials to 2nd Ave/South like they've been doing. If you have the (D) on a 6 minute headway then the event crowds will have to contend  with regulars, which is a nightmare for all involved. (D) trains skip 161st, you have your 8 Specials lined up no service 161-167th for an hour after last pitch. 

 

18 hours ago, Deucey said:

 

Folks just don’t wanna.

 You're right, no one want's their line shut down and no elected Official ever wants to tolerate it, Americans always want the best until its time to pay the price for it. See (L) train for details.
 

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57 minutes ago, RR503 said:

(B) terminates on the middle track from the south. This imaginary service would have to come down the local into 145, discharge, and relay on the express to come back north (is that even an allowed move??). 

There are places where I think overlays make sense, and I've suggested them in those places in the past. It just feels that here, there's a less heavy-handed solution to be had given the fact CPW work has drawn down significantly after ESI finished. 

Trains can't switch to the express track after 161st St and go down to 145th St middle?

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, Jsunflyguy said:

 The (4) has had weekend GOs of either Alternating trains going north of Burnside or some closure for 20 weeks last year. Or a 4hr midday service via Trk M for about 26 weeks out of the year, I'm not going to parse out everyone, but suffice it to say a lot of this time goes to 'emergency repairs' and not even the prescribed repairs.

A lot of it was also track panel/rail replacement work, too, if I'm remembering correctly. Emergency work is what it is, but once again, failures are, to some degree, a constant across all systems. NYCT's 'massive impact' approach to remediating them and doing work generally _seems_ unique. 

16 minutes ago, Jsunflyguy said:

Anyway if you want to run a shuttle on the Concourse on top of the (D) and on top of the (S) specials, you would need to run the (A) local and relay at 135th on A4 as well as 145th at C3 to avoid plugging the line. That said people tend avoid shuttles when through service is available so it will be a waste of resources. Better off just running the Specials to 2nd Ave/South like they've been doing. If you have the (D) on a 6 minute headway then the event crowds will have to contend  with regulars, which is a nightmare for all involved. (D) trains skip 161st, you have your 8 Specials lined up no service 161-167th for an hour after last pitch. 

Not following how A4 is involved here... Is there not enough space (or no capability) to relay on C3-4 south of X664? 

Regardless, we're on the same side here. Shuttles to 145 are a waste; just coordinate appropriately. 

Edited by RR503
I got north and south confused
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1 minute ago, Lawrence St said:

Trains can't switch to the express track after 161st St and go down to 145th St middle?

That's a hell of a long terminal pocket you've just created. At that point, you should be rethinking why you're doing such a thing. 

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30 minutes ago, RR503 said:

That's a hell of a long terminal pocket you've just created. At that point, you should be rethinking why you're doing such a thing. 

I see your point, then 2nd Av would be the next best thing.

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