Long-Term Closures - Providing Service Around Service Outages

[Wallyhorse]

Dont want to quote the entire thing but here are the issues/changes I see:

 

The can't access CPW from the local tracks and you can't cram them on the exps with all the and s you plan.

 

Also, why not route the to Chambers, the over 53rd and down 6 to Fulton and on to the Rockaways to accompany the ? Gets rid of a TON of weirdness...

The "weirdness" has more to do with a few factors.

 

The in my format becomes essentially the in Manhattan EXCEPT for it going on 6th Avenue.  This was in fact one of the planned routes for the   had the draconian 1991 cuts happened as I remember.

 

The being on Broadway (and becoming yellow) has to do with it running close to normal stations in most of midtown and stopping very close to its actual terminal at Cortlandt in this case.  It has terminated on G.O.'s at Whitehall in the past and most trains would terminate there.

 

The to Lefferts is since the would only be serving Brooklyn and Queens, the is the one line from Manhattan serving Fulton Street (of course, you could flip these and have the local and express at all times in this scenario).  The picks up the slack on Park Slope and I would add the OOS transfer between that at Fulton and the Atlantic-Barclays complex. 

 

The going up to CPW with the and is so you replicate the current CPW service as much as possible. I know is a bit of a merging issue north of 34th, but with only 6th Avenue service on CPW/north 8th/St. Nicholas Avenue, you likely need three lines up there at all times to replicate the current situation when the is not running there (two expresses and one local).  The to 168 also assures Broadway-Brooklyn riders of keeping their one-seat ride on 6th Avenue as this also would serve as the CPW local (while the does that late nights with the express at all times as it does now).  

[Around the Horn]

OK, so Broadway:

: Atlantic-Barclays to Coney Island

: Queensboro Plaza to Astoria-Ditmars 24/7 (if Lex-59th was open, it would terminate here)

: Court Street to 95 Street

: 96 St-2 Av to Coney Island via 6 Avenue Express

: local on 4th Avenue all times

: To Forest Hills 24/7 (additional trains to 2 Av if possible)

[Far Rock Depot]

I don't usually do these "what ifs" but....

 

If 6th ave closed:

A- normal

B- suspended

C- suspended

D- 205 to WTC,local in manhattan.

E-extended to Euclid. Local in Brooklyn. late nights queens to wtc

F-via A and E jay to 36th st queens and, local in man and via Crosstown every other train. Crosstown trains via local in queens OR

F-suspended, replaced by G in queens and Brooklyn

M- old Nassau route

Shuttle bus service to Grand St

 

If 8th ave closes

A- via 6th ave 59 to jay st, local in manhattan, lefferts trains local in brooklyn

B- suspended

C- suspended

D- normal

E- queens to 2nd Ave/LES via 6th ave local

F- normal

M- old route

 

Now if Broadway closes:

N-shuttle service Astoria to 59/Lex

Q- via 6th ave 63/Lex to DeKalb

R- shuttle service court st to Bay ridge

W- CI to Court st via Sea Beach

M- normal, weekend queens blvd service added

 

 

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[CenSin]

The "weirdness" has more to do with a few factors.

 

The in my format becomes essentially the in Manhattan EXCEPT for it going on 6th Avenue.  This was in fact one of the planned routes for the   had the draconian 1991 cuts happened as I remember.

 

The being on Broadway (and becoming yellow) has to do with it running close to normal stations in most of midtown and stopping very close to its actual terminal at Cortlandt in this case.  It has terminated on G.O.'s at Whitehall in the past and most trains would terminate there.

 

The to Lefferts is since the would only be serving Brooklyn and Queens, the is the one line from Manhattan serving Fulton Street (of course, you could flip these and have the local and express at all times in this scenario).  The picks up the slack on Park Slope and I would add the OOS transfer between that at Fulton and the Atlantic-Barclays complex. 

 

The going up to CPW with the and is so you replicate the current CPW service as much as possible. I know is a bit of a merging issue north of 34th, but with only 6th Avenue service on CPW/north 8th/St. Nicholas Avenue, you likely need three lines up there at all times to replicate the current situation when the is not running there (two expresses and one local).  The to 168 also assures Broadway-Brooklyn riders of keeping their one-seat ride on 6th Avenue as this also would serve as the CPW local (while the does that late nights with the express at all times as it does now).  

What’s going to happen to Queens Boulevard without the ? I’m sure that given the choice between Central Park West and Queens Boulevard, the line that needs service more is pretty obvious.

[CenSin]

I don't usually do these "what ifs" but....

 

If 6th ave closed:

A- normal

B- suspended

C- suspended

D- 205 to WTC,local in manhattan.

E-extended to Euclid. Local in Brooklyn. late nights queens to wtc

F-via A and E jay to 36th st queens and, local in man and via Crosstown every other train. Crosstown trains via local in queens OR

F-suspended, replaced by G in queens and Brooklyn

M- old Nassau route

Shuttle bus service to Grand St

 

If 8th ave closes

A- via 6th ave 59 to jay st, local in manhattan, lefferts trains local in brooklyn

B- suspended

C- suspended

D- normal

E- queens to 2nd Ave/LES via 6th ave local

F- normal

M- old route

 

Now if Broadway closes:

N-shuttle service Astoria to 59/Lex

Q- via 6th ave 63/Lex to DeKalb

R- shuttle service court st to Bay ridge

W- CI to Court st via Sea Beach

M- normal, weekend queens blvd service added

 

 

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Poor Brighton… without its express service.

 

And that merge between 47–50 Streets–Rockefeller Center and Lexington Avenue/63 Street is going to cause a lot of delays for the Broadway shutdown. At the very least, swap the and , sending the less-frequent through 63 Street to minimize conflict with the .

[CenSin]

Getting this back to the original intent:

 

This time, we replace the 6th Avenue line with a closure of the 8th Avenue line between Columbus Circle and High Street (which can be used to terminate trains in Brooklyn.  This is how I would handle it as best possible:

 

becomes a Brooklyn/Queens-only line between High Street and Far Rockaway full-time

 

becomes full-time and runs 24/7 from 207th in Manhattan-Brighton Beach (express with the in Manhattan and express in Brooklyn).  Evenings, nights and weekends, line is extended to Coney Island (local along 8th Avenue and CPW late nights).

 

is suspended entirely.

 

runs as it does now EXCEPT for no peak-direction express service north of 145th Street.

 

becomes yellow and runs as it does on QB, BUT via 60th Street and Broadway local to Whitehall Street (rush hours to 9th Avenue in Brooklyn via 4th Avenue as needed due to turning capacity at Whitehall, max 12 TPH, see below and no because of this).  Operates local late nights.

 

is re-routed in Brooklyn to the Fulton Line and runs 24/7 to Lefferts, replacing the there and becoming the Fulton Local (no late-night Lefferts  ).

 

operates full-time between 71st-Continental and Coney Island at a max of 12 TPH with full-length trains.

 

A new train operates at all times between 179th and 53rd Street-Lexington Avenue (max 7 TPH) with a single-track operating between Lexington and 7th Avenues on 53rd.  This operates express on the full route at all times.

 

is re-routed after 47-50 to run with the B/D to Columbus Circle and become the CPW local to 168th.  This operates all times except late nights.  

 

Additional trains operate from Astoria as the is replaced by the on Broadway.

 

Some trains run via 63rd Street as needed at peak hours to accommodate the running via 60th.

 

That to me is how I would handle this one.

The problem with your proposal is the quantity of routes affected. You’re effectively doing a chain shift for Broadway. The is moved to 63 Street to make room for more trains via 60 Street, which is beefed up to cover for the , which in turn is eliminated to make room for the replacing it. It’s quite a mess. And Culver gets a …?

[Daniel The Cool]

Poor Brighton… without its express service.

 

And that merge between 47–50 Streets–Rockefeller Center and Lexington Avenue/63 Street is going to cause a lot of delays for the Broadway shutdown. At the very least, swap the and , sending the less-frequent through 63 Street to minimize conflict with the .

No that will not work. There was a reason why they took the off 53rd Street when the debuted in 2001.

[RR503]

The "weirdness" has more to do with a few factors.

 

The in my format becomes essentially the in Manhattan EXCEPT for it going on 6th Avenue. This was in fact one of the planned routes for the had the draconian 1991 cuts happened as I remember.

 

The being on Broadway (and becoming yellow) has to do with it running close to normal stations in most of midtown and stopping very close to its actual terminal at Cortlandt in this case. It has terminated on G.O.'s at Whitehall in the past and most trains would terminate there.

 

The to Lefferts is since the would only be serving Brooklyn and Queens, the is the one line from Manhattan serving Fulton Street (of course, you could flip these and have the local and express at all times in this scenario). The picks up the slack on Park Slope and I would add the OOS transfer between that at Fulton and the Atlantic-Barclays complex.

 

The going up to CPW with the and is so you replicate the current CPW service as much as possible. I know is a bit of a merging issue north of 34th, but with only 6th Avenue service on CPW/north 8th/St. Nicholas Avenue, you likely need three lines up there at all times to replicate the current situation when the is not running there (two expresses and one local). The to 168 also assures Broadway-Brooklyn riders of keeping their one-seat ride on 6th Avenue as this also would serve as the CPW local (while the does that late nights with the express at all times as it does now).

You're thinking about this in the wrong way. The aim of this isn't to provide the closest you can get to the 8th avenue route map without 8th avenue, it's to provide the most sensible service patterns you can in its absence.

 

The B is sensible.

 

The E is not. People are mildly used to E via sixth, but E via bway... Not only are you upending Broadway service patterns by doing so (and creating some insane QP congestion) but you're introducing a route combo that frankly makes no sense given current service. Again, people have heard "E via M / F before, and are used to it, but E via Broadway just won't register." I much prefer the B to 207/D local in Bx/E to Euclid/M to Chambers and A from Jay to Rockaway -- requires less shuffling and keeps trains closer to existing/known routings.

 

F to Lefferts is unnecessary given above, and is also (unusual for you, Wally) an overserving of Fulton over Culver. Also it'll be confusing for riders and will create the mother of all stair jams at Hoyt Schermerhorn.

 

As for the M up CPW, it is not just a little merging issue. If you send the M there while maxing out the B and D, you are physically putting too many trains on a track. So no. Also, for the sake of simplicity, why can't the B become 24/7 CPWL to 207 and the D 24/7 CPWE to 205? Just easier... I'll give you that M to Chambers sucks for Bway BK riders, but it's the simplest way to do things.

 

I'm with you on full length Gs to 71 if this happens.

[CenSin]

No that will not work. There was a reason why they took the off 53rd Street when the debuted in 2001.

Lesser of two evils. There are other things that don’t work. Which one works worse?

 

The must retain its medium-high frequency, and so it remains at 12 TPH. The must retain its high frequency, and it must also remain at 15 TPH. Merging two high-frequency routes for 1 station (57 Street) is probably going to cause massive delays.

 

The other solution is to truncate the to an from Lexington Avenue/63 Street to 96 Street to eliminate the merge. The assumes all responsibility for carrying passengers between Lexington Avenue/63 Street and the rest of 6 Avenue. The takes over for the Brighton local, running 24/7.

 

Any better ideas?

[Far Rock Depot]

Lesser of two evils. There are other things that don’t work. Which one works worse?

 

The must retain its medium-high frequency, and so it remains at 12 TPH. The must retain its high frequency, and it must also remain at 15 TPH. Merging two high-frequency routes for 1 station (57 Street) is probably going to cause massive delays.

 

The other solution is to truncate the to an from Lexington Avenue/63 Street to 96 Street to eliminate the merge. The assumes all responsibility for carrying passengers between Lexington Avenue/63 Street and the rest of 6 Avenue. The takes over for the Brighton local, running 24/7.

 

Any better ideas?

During a bway shutdown, have The Q run on sixth ave. Naturally supplement schedules will adjust for the increase of traffic. (Not many consider that during GOs, supplement schedules come into effect adjusting headways and runtimes for just such an incident. But worse case scenario, you send every third F via crosstown.

But usually a supplement reduces headways by canceling some trips which for a shutdown like this WILL happen. So all this talk about tph have to remember that the current tph count will be reduced. Its not regular service. its a GO. A 24/7 GO for the duration of the project.

 

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[Wallyhorse]

You're thinking about this in the wrong way. The aim of this isn't to provide the closest you can get to the 8th avenue route map without 8th avenue, it's to provide the most sensible service patterns you can in its absence.

 

The B is sensible.

 

The E is not. People are mildly used to E via sixth, but E via bway... Not only are you upending Broadway service patterns by doing so (and creating some insane QP congestion) but you're introducing a route combo that frankly makes no sense given current service. Again, people have heard "E via M / F before, and are used to it, but E via Broadway just won't register." I much prefer the B to 207/D local in Bx/E to Euclid/M to Chambers and A from Jay to Rockaway -- requires less shuffling and keeps trains closer to existing/known routings.

 

F to Lefferts is unnecessary given above, and is also (unusual for you, Wally) an overserving of Fulton over Culver. Also it'll be confusing for riders and will create the mother of all stair jams at Hoyt Schermerhorn.

 

As for the M up CPW, it is not just a little merging issue. If you send the M there while maxing out the B and D, you are physically putting too many trains on a track. So no. Also, for the sake of simplicity, why can't the B become 24/7 CPWL to 207 and the D 24/7 CPWE to 205? Just easier... I'll give you that M to Chambers sucks for Bway BK riders, but it's the simplest way to do things.

 

I'm with you on full length Gs to 71 if this happens.

In that case, the is local to 207, the is express in Manhattan/local in The Bronx to 205 and the instead of the / combo, the runs at all times to Jamaica Center (as it did after Sandy briefly) OR if 10-car trains are needed at Jamaica Center, the runs there and the becomes a full-time train to 179 as an express on QB whether it goes to 179 or Jamaica Center (with the fully suspended).  If needed, a truncated can run between Columbus Circle and 168 in this scenario to supplement the .

[Around the Horn]

Hmmm, A 6th Avenue closure seems like the hardest one to plan. 

Well I'll take a stab at it anyway...

No trains between 59 St-Columbus Circle/Lexington Av-63 St and West 4th Street

: Lefferts trains local in Brooklyn

: suspended (see  )

: 168 Street to East Broadway (if 6 Avenue south of West 4th is open; if not suspend and run 8 Avenue Local)

: 8th Avenue Express then via  in Brooklyn

: some  trips from Jamaica-179 St become  trips to 2 Av; all  trains run local on QBL weekdays

: via Broadway/4th Av Express and  in Brooklyn

: To 9th Avenue or Bay Parkway (provide additional capacity from Essex to Fulton and a connection from West End to Fulton for  passengers)

: local via tunnel at all times 

: 96 St-2 Av to Brighton Beach via Brighton Express

: suspended

 

Shuttle buses between West 4th and Grand Street, and between Jay St-MetroTech and York St.

 

(To support the extended train, several R160s from 207th are transferred over to Fresh Pond Yard)

 

The and  uses a mix of the   and fleets.

[Lawrence St]

Let's try a harder one:

 

The Lexington Avenue Line between Bowling Green and 86th Street is out of service for track and structure rebuild following a crane collapse.

 

How I would do it:

 

trains run only between Woodlawn and 86th Streetwith select trips terminating at 161st St-Yankee Stadium.

 

trains operate via 7th Avenue local to Rector St, then via loop to Bowling Green weekends. These trips alternate between Wakefield and Dyre. Weekdays, trains run via 7th Avenue Local to Chambers, then via to Franklin, then via to Crown Heights.

 

trains operate only between 138th Street and Pelham Bay Park.

 

some trips are cancelled to fit in service.

[Wallyhorse]

Let's try a harder one:

 

The Lexington Avenue Line between Bowling Green and 86th Street is out of service for track and structure rebuild following a crane collapse.

 

How I would do it:

 

trains run only between Woodlawn and 86th Streetwith select trips terminating at 161st St-Yankee Stadium.

 

trains operate via 7th Avenue local to Rector St, then via loop to Bowling Green weekends. These trips alternate between Wakefield and Dyre. Weekdays, trains run via 7th Avenue Local to Chambers, then via to Franklin, then via to Crown Heights.

 

trains operate only between 138th Street and Pelham Bay Park.

 

some trips are cancelled to fit in service.

Assuming Bowling Green can be used to terminate:

 

runs at all times to New Lots Avenue during this time

 

is split as follows:

Woodlawn-86th Street

Bowling Green-Utica Avenue

Some northbound trains terminate at Borough Hall

Some southbound trains terminate at 149th Street

 

runs as a shuttle only between Dyre Av-East 180th Street

(Rush Hours: Some trains operate to/from Dyre Avenue)

 

runs between Pelham Bay Park and 86th Street ONLY

Some trains terminate at 3rd Avenue-East 138th Street

[Lawrence St]

So you would leave Nostrand Avenue with only the ?

[Wallyhorse]

So you would leave Nostrand Avenue with only the ?

Likely with enhanced service.  You could in theory have addition (2)'s operate from the platform at Borough Hall or Bowling Green if needed.

[tripleeye49]

Let's try a harder one:

 

The Lexington Avenue Line between Bowling Green and 86th Street is out of service for track and structure rebuild following a crane collapse.

 

How I would do it:

 

trains run only between Woodlawn and 86th Streetwith select trips terminating at 161st St-Yankee Stadium.

 

trains operate via 7th Avenue local to Rector St, then via loop to Bowling Green weekends. These trips alternate between Wakefield and Dyre. Weekdays, trains run via 7th Avenue Local to Chambers, then via to Franklin, then via to Crown Heights.

 

trains operate only between 138th Street and Pelham Bay Park.

 

some trips are cancelled to fit in service.

 

- Lexington Avenue Local: New Lots Avenue to Bowling Green. All Times. Only Train Running Along Lexington south of 86th Street.  Encourage transfers to to get around.  Bronx service from Woodlawn to 125th / 86th Street.  Bronx service renamed (8) train if long term.

- 7th Avenue Express: White Plains Road to Flatbush Avenue.  Some trains runs to 148th Street, replacing .

- 7th Avenue Express: Dyre Avenue to Utica Avenue.  Some trains runs to 148th Street, replacing .

- Replaced by (2)/(5) and shuttle buses in Harlem.

- Pelham Bay Park to 86th Street.

 

No Brooklyn Express Service during this time.

[D to Burke Avenue]

- Lexington Avenue Local: New Lots Avenue to Bowling Green. All Times. Only Train Running Along Lexington south of 86th Street. Encourage transfers to to get around. Bronx service from Woodlawn to 125th / 86th Street. Bronx service renamed (8) train if long term.

- 7th Avenue Express: White Plains Road to Flatbush Avenue. Some trains runs to 148th Street, replacing .

- 7th Avenue Express: Dyre Avenue to Utica Avenue. Some trains runs to 148th Street, replacing .

- Replaced by (2)/(5) and shuttle buses in Harlem.

- Pelham Bay Park to 86th Street.

 

No Brooklyn Express Service during this time.

I guess select trains will be R62s to 148 Street granted that 145 Street only handles 5 cars.

[Around the Horn]

I guess select trains will be R62s to 148 Street granted that 145 Street only handles 5 cars.

 

They've run R142s up there. Just had one go up there Monday in fact.

[Porter]

In regards to the , that line would be rerouted back to Nassau St

 

Shouldn't it use the bullet during the period in which it travels along the Nassau Street Line, so as to not confuse riders into thinking that it's service as usual for over a year?

[Far Rock Depot]

I guess select trains will be R62s to 148 Street granted that 145 Street only handles 5 cars.

They've run R142s up there. Just had one go up there Monday in fact.

Yeah, why would 145th st be a Factor in what equipment gets sent to it? Both types of railcars has the C/R setup at the same locations. Both halves of both sets are set up in 5-car zones

 

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[Around the Horn]

We've been talking primarily about individual long term closures, but how would you plan a systemwide effort, say something like WMATA's SafeTrack, where section after section gets worked on?

 

Which sections do you do first? Which do you save for last? What exactly would you fix?