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lilbluefoxie

Diamond 4 and Diamond 5

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How come <4> and <5> arent on the maps and station signs anymore? I cant imagine its because of the R142 since it can display <6> on the front.

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How come <4> and <5> arent on the maps and station signs anymore? I cant imagine its because of the R142 since it can display <6> on the front.

 

The rush hour diamond symbols were removed back in May of 2005, expection of the <6> b/c those trains run in peak directional hours during AM/PM and mid-days hours. The <4> only implicated it skipped 138th Street-Grand Concourse during AM ad PM rush hours. The <5> implicated it had express rush hour service to Flatbush Avenue in the AM rush and to Nereid Avenue-238th Street in the PM rush!

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did every (5) train continue past Bowling Green during rush hours or only ones marked <5>?

 

I don't know which rush hours you're talking about? Trains that left Eastchester-Dyre Avenue during the AM rush was a <5> it ran express from East 180th Street to 3rd Avenue-149th Street going past Bowling Green via Lexington Avenue to Brooklyn was a diamond....the Uptown trains was a (5). During the PM rush hours trains that leave Brooklyn College-Flatbush Avenue was a (5) or <5>......the Nereid Avenue-238th Street trains was New Lots Avenue and/or Crown Heights-Utica Avenue was a <5> ran express from 3rd Avenue-149th Street to East 180th Street then via the White Plains Road Line local to Nereid Avenue-238th Street!

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did every (5) train continue past Bowling Green during rush hours or only ones marked <5>?

 

All (5)<5> Trains ran though Bowling Green Bronx and Brooklyn Bound Trains. During Rush Hour Only. Middays, Evenings and Weekends the (5) would only run from The Bronx (Dyre Ave) to Bowling Green

 

As of June 29, 2009 (5) runs during Middays to/from the bronx and brooklyn passing bowling green

 

I do mis sthe <5> tho it was much easier to figure out which train was a Dyre or 238th street train. (5) for Dyre and <5> for 238th. There is one R142 thats based out of Union port yd that has a <5> as well as old announcements. Cant remember the car number. But you will notice it. With the LED still showing "To" for the destination... Which runs on the (2) and (5) everyday.

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I miss the <5>!

 

OMG me too!! Now i ger confuse from a 238th Train from a Dyre Train!!

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The rush hour diamond symbols were removed back in May of 2005, expection of the <6> b/c those trains run in peak directional hours during AM/PM and mid-days hours. The <4> only implicated it skipped 138th Street-Grand Concourse during AM ad PM rush hours. The <5> implicated it had express rush hour service to Flatbush Avenue in the AM rush and to Nereid Avenue-238th Street in the PM rush!

 

I never have seen a <5> in Brooklyn rush hour service, but I have seen a <5> on the R142 when it runs Express in the Bronx.

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The reason for dropping the <5> and replacing it with a regular (5) bullet is very simple. All (5) trains run thru-express in the rush hours so there was no reason for it. Unlike the Pelham (6),<6>, or Flushing (7),<7>, where trains run local and express service at the same time. There was a time when riders looked for a <5> and expected it to operate on the WPR line and not Dyre, especially during the pre-redbird era, but we were told that the diamond only meant express service and had nothing to do with the destination (Dyre or WPR).There was a time when the term "thru-express" only meant White Plains Road service OR Third Avenue express originating/terminating from 241 St terminal, period. That dates back to the Lo-V era and route numbers weren't even in existence. Hope this clears up things somewhat. but the NYCT might change everything tomorrow and revert to the past. Who knows what they're thinking from week to week? That's my brief history lesson. Carry on.

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The reason for dropping the <5> and replacing it with a regular (5) bullet is very simple. All (5) trains run thru-express in the rush hours so there was no reason for it. Unlike the Pelham (6),<6>, or Flushing (7),<7>, where trains run local and express service at the same time. There was a time when riders looked for a <5> and expected it to operate on the WPR line and not Dyre, especially during the pre-redbird era, but we were told that the diamond only meant express service and had nothing to do with the destination (Dyre or WPR).There was a time when the term "thru-express" only meant White Plains Road service OR Third Avenue express originating/terminating from 241 St terminal, period. That dates back to the Lo-V era and route numbers weren't even in existence. Hope this clears up things somewhat. but the NYCT might change everything tomorrow and revert to the past. Who knows what they're thinking from week to week? That's my brief history lesson. Carry on.

 

that makes sense, the <5> while it would make it easy to tell at a glance if its going to 238 St, it would make it confusing too because it would imply the (5) was going to go local from 3 Ave to E 180 St. when in fact it was express too.

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Seems (5) vs. <5> has already been explained but as for the (4) and <4>:

 

There's no reason for it. All N/B rush hour trains leaving Utica between 406pm and 1731pm skip 138th Street in the PM rush. During the AM rush, all S/B trains leaving Woodlawn between 636am and 834am skip 138th.

 

There is no local version of the 4 that does stop at 138th during these times so using that on a map or train would be confusing.

 

Burnside Avenue drop-out trips, which do run express in the Bronx (skipping 170, Mt. Eden, and 176) are not shown on the map as expresses because to do so would give the appearance that there are scheduled express trains to WOODLAWN that skip those stops while, in fact, there are not.

 

Additionally <4> on a train for this purpose could confuse riders particularly at 149th Street/GC northbound, as they may think incorrectly the train is skipping Yankee Stadium, for example.

Edited by SubwayGuy

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Not to mention unlike SMEE equipment, there is no diamond or circle designation anymore on the side of trains, and something its a split second decision to wait for the side signs to scroll to the appropriate destination (again unlike SMEE where both destinations were displayed simultaneously assuming they were correct).

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I wish they would bring back the 5 diamond at least...we used to the 4 as it is but it's annoying tryna decipher at 180 which 5 is goin where...I also wish they would stop playing with the Nereid ave service ...i think. Only 1 or 2 actually make the trip local from 180 the rest run Exp to Gun hill then dropout...at least go local to 238 after! What the problem here??? I just don't see that many 2 train

conflicting at 238 to warrant such sporadic 5 service..

To nereid ...don't

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The reason for dropping the <5> and replacing it with a regular (5) bullet is very simple. All (5) trains run thru-express in the rush hours so there was no reason for it. Unlike the Pelham (6),<6>, or Flushing (7),<7>, where trains run local and express service at the same time. There was a time when riders looked for a <5> and expected it to operate on the WPR line and not Dyre, especially during the pre-redbird era, but we were told that the diamond only meant express service and had nothing to do with the destination (Dyre or WPR).There was a time when the term "thru-express" only meant White Plains Road service OR Third Avenue express originating/terminating from 241 St terminal, period. That dates back to the Lo-V era and route numbers weren't even in existence. Hope this clears up things somewhat. but the NYCT might change everything tomorrow and revert to the past. Who knows what they're thinking from week to week? That's my brief history lesson. Carry on.

 

 

Yeah i remember all bronx express 5 trains having a diamond, wheather its going to/from 238th st or Dyre Ave. The diamond indicated rush hr bx express, not destination.

Its been a while though, since the diamond was in use so maybe my memory is slipping lol.

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I wish they would bring back the 5 diamond at least...we used to the 4 as it is but it's annoying tryna decipher at 180 which 5 is goin where...I also wish they would stop playing with the Nereid ave service ...i think. Only 1 or 2 actually make the trip local from 180 the rest run Exp to Gun hill then dropout...at least go local to 238 after! What the problem here??? I just don't see that many 2 train

conflicting at 238 to warrant such sporadic 5 service..

To nereid ...don't

 

The countdown clocks help with that.

 

It would have been nice however if the side signs on the NTT's were capable of displaying more than one thing at one time...like SMEE signs. For example if there were 3 separate displays, one with route number "5" steady, then two to the right of that - one with destination steady, and one beneath it with routing "Lex Av Exp" "Bronx Exp" and "E Pkwy Exp" scrolling. But that's not the way they ordered them.

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Guest lance25

That would be incredibly cost-inefficient in my opinion. The only way that would likely work is if one of the descriptive readings, let's say the destination one, was an electronic rollsign like the original ones on the R44s and R46s because having two different electronic displays, one for destinations and the other for routings, is just a waste of money. You'd have one practically static destination display and a cycling routing one, whereas, you can consolidate the two into one at half the cost.

 

No, the better option is to see if the NTT displays can cycle through more than three readings. I mean, if the archaic R46 displays from 1989 can display at least four readings, why can't the R142s through R160s? If it's a lack of computer space, then maybe it's high-time to upgrade the on-board computers.

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I was on the (4) today and I still saw a <B> on the strip map as a transfer at Yankee Stadium. If diamonds weren't based off of destination, then why was a <B> ever even there? My first guess would be that it indicated service to Bedford....

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I was on the (4) today and I still saw a <B> on the strip map as a transfer at Yankee Stadium. If diamonds weren't based off of destination, then why was a <B> ever even there? My first guess would be that it indicated service to Bedford....

 

probably an old map, they used to indicate the (;) to bedford park with <B>.

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On a NTT how hard is it to read the side sign display? Or hear the automated announcement? It appears to me that on a 10 car train a person waiting on the platform has ample time to see and hear where the train is going, especially during rush hours. How is it that a visually or hearing impaired person can travel during the rush hours easier than some of you railfans? It sounds like some people need major hand-holding to get around the subway system. It's always better to move down the platforms to get more opportunity to view the side signs anyway. Those who wait at the first car don't see the displays as often as those further down the platform as trains enter the station. Common sense. It's still my opinion that SMEE and pre-SMEE cars were better at displaying route and destination information compared to NTT but that's just my opinion. Three lines of static info, assuming the info is right, vs scrolling info but it seems the young folks love the bells and whistles and electronic displays. Well you've got your flashy displays yet people still complain. What a shame.

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That would be incredibly cost-inefficient in my opinion. The only way that would likely work is if one of the descriptive readings, let's say the destination one, was an electronic rollsign like the original ones on the R44s and R46s because having two different electronic displays, one for destinations and the other for routings, is just a waste of money. You'd have one practically static destination display and a cycling routing one, whereas, you can consolidate the two into one at half the cost.

 

Compared to the cost of the cars as a whole, the cost of an additional electronic sign (2 per car - one for each side) would not have been a big deal. It also allows the other sign to be made smaller. Destination information is stored constantly on the TOD screen anyway and on all the electronic signs, even if not displayed constantly, so it's not too much of an extra stretch to display it constantly.

 

Picture something like this, I don't know how you could say any electronic signs could give more information more conveniently than this:

 

668e8d73a1b99adca5544c6ee545ec53.gif

 

There are many times during rush hour the train has sat in the station, loaded, and the announcement has already played. Someone walking up to a train in that situation won't hear the next stop announcement, and to wait 10 seconds for the side signs (or interior signs) to scroll back to the destination may mean the difference between making the train and not making it.

 

I'm the last person to defend rider stupidity, but in this case you can't fault people for not seeing information that is not readily available. It does no one any good to see a 5 pull into East 180th Street N/B, and the ONLY two pieces of information someone happens to see upon walking to the platform before the doors close are "E Pkwy Exp" and "Lexington Av Exp".

 

The destination is far more important information than the routing, which is why the routing ought to cycle and the destination remain constant.

 

That was the main advantage of SMEE and AMUE car signs, is they displayed the destination (and in some cases lit the active destination). Obviously the downside was they could not all be updated in real time from one point on the train, so there was no guarantee they were all accurate. But with technology, that's possible, so it's silly to display less information just for the sake of only using one screen.

 

And it's important to do this with electronic signage (NOT ROLLSIGNS) because that way when the train goes back southbound, the destination will reflect ONLY the southern terminal (since the northern terminal is not relevant, obviously), and the scrolling routes will display the new information...in the case of a 5 during PM rush, replacing "Bronx Exp" with "Bronx Lcl". And having a constant destination sign is still helpful southbound since you have 5 trains that go to Utica, so that information is prominantly and consistently displayed for riders. As a matter of fact, every line in the IRT running NTT's has some alternate destination that riders would want to know about:

 

-Most 2's go to Flatbush, some go to New Lots

-Most 4's go to Woodlawn, some go to Burnside. Most 4's go to Utica, some go to New Lots (even during the day!)

-Most 5's go to Flatbush, some go to Utica. Most 5's go to Dyre, some go to 238th.

-Most 6's go to Pelham, some go to Parkchester and some go to 138th/3rd.

 

That information ought to be displayed more constantly and more prominently than it is now.

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Guest lance25

I get that the destination is the most important aspect on the electronic displays, but I don't see the need for two separate displays. If anything, the current displays could be easily updated to leave the destination reading up for a few more seconds than the rest of them (such as EASTCHSTR-DYRE AV - 5 seconds, EASTERN PKWY EXP/LEXINGTON AV EXP - 2 seconds) because unless the train is diverted, it's usually going to be running on those lines and most people know that. Alternatively, the readings can reset to the destination when the doors open and close, similar to the R160s' setup. I just don't think we need two different routing/destination displays on the trains, but hey, it's just my opinion.

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SubwayGuy - you do actually have a major point, and I'm not really commenting on that.

 

There was one aspect of the older roll signs that I did like. If the train was traveling downtown - one could "tell" from where that train came from. To me as a transit nut - that kind of information was useful. The same could be said for the uptown direction - it was "nice" to know from where the train came from. When I was a kid - the MTA did not publish train route guides or fairly detailed timetables. One had to read the signage to determine that "this uptown #5 train came from Flatbush Avenue, while the #5 after it came from Utica Avenue - even though I was headed to the Bronx. It was not that riding either #5 train would have made a practical difference, it just added to my understanding of the subways.

 

The current electronic signs that only show the destinations (and not the origins) of the trains - posting that information because that is not what Uptown riders need (in this example) - information about the Brooklyn origin is not really needed for Bronx bound riders. It is the just "progress" that's all.

 

Mike

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I get that the destination is the most important aspect on the electronic displays, but I don't see the need for two separate displays. If anything, the current displays could be easily updated to leave the destination reading up for a few more seconds than the rest of them (such as EASTCHSTR-DYRE AV - 5 seconds, EASTERN PKWY EXP/LEXINGTON AV EXP - 2 seconds) because unless the train is diverted, it's usually going to be running on those lines and most people know that. Alternatively, the readings can reset to the destination when the doors open and close, similar to the R160s' setup. I just don't think we need two different routing/destination displays on the trains, but hey, it's just my opinion.

 

And what good is that if someone happens to arrive when Eastern Pkwy/Lex/Bronx exp is displaying?

 

With your idea those signs take 6 seconds to cycle back to showing the destination (with 3 routings needing to be displayed). With a 10 second dwell time. Meaning if the train has sat in the station for a whopping 4 seconds, someone comes up the stairs, they may not see the destination before it's time to go during off hours.

 

Combining routings is confusing...there is only so much abbreviating you can do before you confuse the general public. A clusterf*ck like "E Pkwy/Lex/BNX EXP" would never really fly except in a world of disfunctional sign foaming train buffs.

 

The routing is important also, and that shouldn't simply disappear to "reset" to the destination. But it is not AS important as the destination.

 

Further, the old signs used to display all this! On redbirds on the <6> for example, you would see:

 

Pelham Bay Park

Bronx

------------------

Brooklyn Bridge

Manhattan

------------------

<6> Lex Av Lcl-Pelham Exp

 

All at once!

 

As to your comment "unless the train is diverted, it's usually going to be running on those lines and most people know that", that's invalid because like I said these are scheduled runs that do NOT go to the typical terminal. People getting on a 5 train in Brooklyn MIGHT like to know before they get on the train if it's going to Utica instead of Flatbush. And that's not something you can learn by simply looking at a map because the map doesn't show the train going to that station.

 

Hence why proper and complete signage on TRAINS is so important.

 

Where the technology comes in is the difficulty of changing SMEE signs being removed and replaced with instantaneous trainline updates through the TOD screen. Additionally, as Mike said, the newer SMEE signs did not indicate direction of travel (older ones did by illuminating the active destination). For the older SMEE signs that was a helpful feature as Mike said for someone to understand more about the train they were riding, as it was apparent which terminal was the destination and which the origin. But again, as Mike said, that origin information is not truly "necessary" to a rider going to the destination. And without clear indication of which is actually the destination, it could confuse people so it makes sense to remove origin info in this context. Especially using the TOD since if a program is not available for origin to destination (like the 2 Dyre->South Ferry) the origin information will be incorrect anyway (the route used for 2 Dyre->South Ferry is actually a Wakefield->Chambers St. routing where all the upper WPR stops are knocked out).

 

The sign I've suggested, had it been implemented on the NTT's, would have done all that and then some...removing the origin, which is not entirely necessary, and replacing it by scrolling routing which is complete, not excessively abbreviated, and maintains the presence of the destination at all times on the train.

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