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ATO in effect on the Larry Line going into terminals

RTOMan

By RTOMan,
in New York City Subway

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INDman Train Operator

INDman

Posted
Posted
so whats the train op doing besides folding his arms together, just making sure everything is on the right track? pun

 

Well, i don't remember if the alerter is being used (a button that must be pressed every 15 seconds or so) or if the dead man is activated. But basically the T/O is there to make sure every thing is going swell. I do not thing the (L) will ever go ZPTO since it is an open route. Even if platform screen doors are installed, there are plenty of areas where people could get onto the roadbed. Also, he must be there if there is an ATO failure so the train can still move.

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Dan05979

Dan05979

Posted
Posted
Well, i don't remember if the alerter is being used (a button that must be pressed every 15 seconds or so) or if the dead man is activated. But basically the T/O is there to make sure every thing is going swell. I do not thing the (L) will ever go ZPTO since it is an open route. Even if platform screen doors are installed, there are plenty of areas where people could get onto the roadbed. Also, he must be there if there is an ATO failure so the train can still move.

 

Honestly, I dont like it. I feel in the future it will take away jobs, maybe the t/o is happy he can relax for the tour but, I dont know........:tdown:

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INDman Train Operator

INDman

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Posted
Honestly, I dont like it. I feel in the future it will take away jobs, maybe the t/o is happy he can relax for the tour but, I dont know........:tdown:

 

I have not sat up front for this one. I don't think I would like it as I like being in control. I don't think jobs will be in danger for the near future, but who knows. The MTA is always trying to go the cheap way and will compromise safety if it means saving money. (I don't mean in this particular situation as I don't know enough about it yet.) I just hope that when the train does try to run the block, the poor T/O has the reflexes of a cat and can either dump the train or get out of that cab in time.

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rr4567

rr4567

Posted
Posted
Not funny, making jokes from the end result of people suffering.

 

Who said I was making jokes? :confused: If I was joking about something, ":p" would be there. So stop making accusations.

 

Now stop going off topic.

 

___________________________________________________________________

 

 

I wonder how it will work out. Will it be successful? Or will we have an attempt at making a route extension by one of these trains? :P

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Fan Railer

Fan Railer

Posted
Posted
"this is 10th Ave"

 

"This is Rockaway Parkway (street)"

 

did you or did you not type that. using crashes where people died is not respecctful, more so when it's the T/O

 

I have to agree with him. Although you may have not meant it as a joke, those quotes certainly portray it as a joke. remember that it's the perspective of the reader that one must consider when posting such material, not his own, since the reader can obviously interpret it differently.

 

anyway, back on topic, how fast do trains come into stations anyway under CBTC? i would estimate around 40-35, assuming max braking is utilize.

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fishmech

fishmech

Posted
Posted

I really doubt there's going to be problems at the terminals.

 

I mean, has anyone seen any AirTrain cars crashing into the terminal ends? They don't slow until they're entering the terminal area either.

 

Don't forget Vancouver has run multiple ATO lines for about 3 decades without terminal station crashes.

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rr4567

rr4567

Posted
Posted
"this is 10th Ave"

 

"This is Rockaway Parkway (street)"

 

did you or did you not type that. using crashes where people died is not respecctful, more so when it's the T/O

 

You don't get it, do you?

 

crash.jpg

 

What would happen if a train going 25 MPH were to do that at Rockaway Parkway? It would go into the street.

 

Photos used for damage reference.

 

Derp!

 

_____________________________________________________________________

 

I have to agree with him. Although you may have not meant it as a joke, those quotes certainly portray it as a joke. remember that it's the perspective of the reader that one must consider when posting such material, not his own, since the reader can obviously interpret it differently.

 

anyway, back on topic, how fast do trains come into stations anyway under CBTC? i would estimate around 40-35, assuming max braking is utilize.

 

You're right. They do seem as if I'm joking. But the train PROBABLY would go in the street if it were going fast.

_____________________________________________________________________

 

 

Who knows, ATO may possibly succeed. but there is that chance.

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rr4567

rr4567

Posted
Posted
There's also a chance a train with a human operator will do that OH WAIT THAT'S ALREADY HAPPENED DOZENS OF TIMES ON THE SUBWAY. The point of ATO is it makes it less likely.

 

But there is STILL a chance. Maybe less likely, but still a chance.

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BusOperator3319

BusOperator3319

Posted
Posted

I don't like the sound of Automatic Train Operation are they using this outside of Rush Hour because if s**t hit's the fan and you have a crush load of people on the train and something go's wrong you know it's a lawsuit terrible things have happened in the past I know what people are trying to hit on Computers do malfunction now my question is would the T/O have ample enough time to react if that did happen it's like playing Russian Roulette and im surprised there are no T/O's against this as they would be the first to be affected by this if you know what I mean there is no walking away from a train going into a wall that is truly called the point of no return

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fishmech

fishmech

Posted
Posted
But there is STILL a chance. Maybe less likely, but still a chance.

 

The only way to avoid it is to turn every terminal station into a loop.

 

I don't like the sound of Automatic Train Operation are they using this outside of Rush Hour because if s**t hit's the fan and you have a crush load of people on the train and something go's wrong you know it's a lawsuit terrible things have happened in the past I know what people are trying to hit on Computers do malfunction now my question is would the T/O have ample enough time to react if that did happen it's like playing Russian Roulette and im surprised there are no T/O's against this as they would be the first to be affected by this if you know what I mean there is no walking away from a train going into a wall that is truly called the point of no return

 

It hasn't happened on any subway-like system with ATO yet... for example Vancouver, some of the Paris lines, and so on.

 

 

A terminal station is the safest place for ATO, and the plans used for the Vancouver and upcoming NYC ATO avoid the problem that led to the DC Metro crash. The DC Metro runs ATO that doesn't stop any trains in the vicinity of a train that stops responding, which led to the recent crash there. Vancouver and soon NYC use a system that shuts out trains near a disabled one, such that manual operation is needed to proceed.

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INDman Train Operator

INDman

Posted
Posted
I love how some of the people bashing it don't have clue on how it really works and what it really does. They just don't like the idea and come up with stupid excuses to say it won't work. For example, saying it won't work becuase they are retrofitting an 80 year old line is just bullshit. London uses ATO on the Central Line, which opened 4 years before the IRT did, hasn't been extened in 60 years so nothing new has been built on it), is longer than the A train, a full local and carries more passengers than the L. The Central line was 94 when they brought it's ATO on-line.

 

still want to use that excuse?

 

Yes, I will still use it all I want. It took how long for TA to install the system and get it to work as designed? Oh, thats right, it still has some problems. Also the Central Line was almost totally rebuilt while the (L) was not. Yes they did replace some track, but there was alot they did in London that they did not do here. When the line works as intended without any hic-ups, then it really does work. Until then, it does not.

 

You do also know that one of the reasons why NYCT has a hard time integrating new systems is that many of the old equipment rooms in the subway are in horrible condition. Many of them leak badly and it ruins the new equipment. A major company pulled out of a contract with NYCT to install a security system due to this reason. Don't tell me that adding a new system to a very old transit system is not a problem and is very easy. It ain't.

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RTOMan Train Operator

RTOMan

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I love how some of the people bashing it don't have clue on how it really works and what it really does. They just don't like the idea and come up with stupid excuses to say it won't work. For example, saying it won't work becuase they are retrofitting an 80 year old line is just bullshit. London uses ATO on the Central Line, which opened 4 years before the IRT did, hasn't been extened in 60 years so nothing new has been built on it), is longer than the A train, a full local and carries more passengers than the L. The Central line was 94 when they brought it's ATO on-line.

 

still want to use that excuse?

 

Who is this person again???^^^^

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SubwayGuy

SubwayGuy

Posted
Posted
There's also a chance a train with a human operator will do that OH WAIT THAT'S ALREADY HAPPENED DOZENS OF TIMES ON THE SUBWAY. The point of ATO is it makes it less likely.

 

While that may be the design, it may not ultimately work that way. Second if there are problems, even if an operator overruns and hits the blocks in most cases they put the train into emergency or at least slowed it down first, what happens when ATO gets the glitch and goes into a block at 15-20 MPH? It's a HUGE difference in terms of casualties and damage at 15 vs. at 5 MPH which will still be very damaging.

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fishmech

fishmech

Posted
Posted
While that may be the design, it may not ultimately work that way. Second if there are problems, even if an operator overruns and hits the blocks in most cases they put the train into emergency or at least slowed it down first, what happens when ATO gets the glitch and goes into a block at 15-20 MPH? It's a HUGE difference in terms of casualties and damage at 15 vs. at 5 MPH which will still be very damaging.

 

Are you not aware that ATO setups almost always have a human operator standing by in the cab in case of trouble? That's what they're doing here in NYC.

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SubwayGuy

SubwayGuy

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Posted
Are you not aware that ATO setups almost always have a human operator standing by in the cab in case of trouble? That's what they're doing here in NYC.

 

I am very much aware of that. However when you dumb down the job and get someone in the habit of staring at a computer screen and out the window for entire shifts, it's only natural that their reaction time is going to be slower when something does happen.

 

And if you've ridden ATO trains, it is not always immediately clear when the train is going to stop a little long. Happened at a couple stations on a train I was on not all that long ago...

 

Besides, that WMATA train in DC had someone assigned to monitor. That didn't do much good because many times when an accident is going to happen, there's not enough time to realize 1) yes this is a dangerous condition that I can't do anything about 2) OK I need to stop the train and 3) the physical delay of a couple seconds in your body reacting accordingly.

 

The computer should be there to catch human error, not vice versa. Humans make mistakes more often, but computer mistakes are more often fatal. And in case of emergencies, computers have faster reaction times.

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