Via Garibaldi 8 Posted November 25, 2013 Share #826 Posted November 25, 2013 For heaven's sake why are you so angry and what are you talking about? First, when did I ever state that there was too much BM3 service in Sheepshead Bay? Second, where did I state that there is too much B44 local service in Sheepshead Bay? I said there was too much SBS service south of Avenue X. That is not the same thing. I actually have been saying for the past year that there would not be enough local service, not too much. You can check my article from last March if you want to. Let me clarify, since I wasn't clear. You stated before in one of your articles that express bus service should be reduced in favor of getting more folks to use the subway so that clears the BM3 up. Second, as I stated to Brooklyn IRT, when I speak of "local bus service", that also includes SBS service as far as I'm concerned. The only service I view as being truly "express" is actual express bus service, as in commuter bus service from and to Manhattan. Everything else, including SBS service falls under local bus service in my mind, so yes, I know that you said that there is too much SBS service, and that's what I was referring to when I said "local bus service". I also don't think that local bus service on the B44 will be hampered that terribly. Let's face it. Where are the majority of people going that use the B44 down in Sheepshead Bay? It's usually people traveling to and from Sheepshead Bay and not actual Sheepshead Bay residents. Most residents of Sheepshead Bay would use the B4 moreso than the B44 so it makes sense to have more SBS service down there. Also, Bus Time will be coming to Brooklyn hopefully next year, so those who need local bus service will be able to see where their bus is and then can decide to either take the more frequent SBS service and walk or wait for the local bus service. That's precisely what I do with the M15 and I support SBS service. We need buses to make fewer stops and not more. Bus speeds are becoming poorer, not better. SBS is long overdue for bus customers. @VG8: To be fair, SBS is neither local or express service. It's simply more or less BRT without fully seperated lanes (with that I mean: no interference with other traffic at all like you'd find on BRT or SBSBRT). SBS falls under LOCAL BUS service in the overall scheme of things. It uses the same buses that local buses use, even if they are wrapped with the SBS ads. As I said, to me true "express" service is express buses from and to Manhattan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vistausss Posted November 25, 2013 Share #827 Posted November 25, 2013 Just because it uses the same local buses doesn't mean it's not BRT-like. If that's the case, then you might wanna consider removing my city from the BRT list on Wikipedia because even though the system is set up as BRT, we do use normal buses you'd find in lots of cities. SBS is a form of BRT. As someone who lives in a SBSBRT city since 1998 (and I'm only 21 years old) and also has experience with 2 other SBSBRT lines in the country, I think I know a thing or two about SBS/BRT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted November 25, 2013 Share #828 Posted November 25, 2013 Just because it uses the same local buses doesn't mean it's not BRT-like. If that's the case, then you might wanna consider removing my city from the BRT list on Wikipedia because even though the system is set up as BRT, we do use normal buses you'd find in lots of cities. SBS is a form of BRT. As someone who lives in a SBSBRT city since 1998 (and I'm only 21 years old) and also has experience with 2 other SBSBRT lines in the country, I think I know a thing or two about SBS/BRT. I'm not arguing what it's a form of. The fact of the matter is it's still under local bus service in the overall scheme of things. It's like having some B/Os that do only "express runs" as in express bus runs to and from the city, and those who only do "local runs" be it SBS or not. Look at how it's listed on the website: http://web.mta.info/nyct/service/bus/bklnsch.htm LOCAL SERVICE B1 B2 B3 B4 B6 B7 B8 B9 B11 B12 B13 B14 B15 B16 B17 B20 Ocean Parkway/86 Street Avenue R Avenue U Bay Ridge Parkway/86 Street Bay Parkway/Avenue J/Flatlands Av Kings Highway/Saratoga Avenue 18 Avenue/Avenue D 60 Street/Avenue M 49 & 50 Streets/Avenue J Clarkson Av/Empire Blvd/East New York Av Crescent St/Jamaica Avenue/Wyckoff Av Sutter/Pitkin Avenues Marcus Garvey Boulevard/New Lots Avenue Ft Hamilton Parkway/13 & 14 Avenues Remsen/Seaview Avenues Pennsylvania Avenue/Linden Boulevard BACK TO TOP LOCAL SERVICE B24 B25 B26 B31 B32 B35 B36 B38 B39 B41 Greenpoint/Kingsland Avenues Fulton Street Halsey/Fulton Streets Gerritsen Avenue Bway/Kent Av/Franklin St/McGuiness Blvd Church Avenue/39 Street Avenue Z/Surf Avenue DeKalb/Lafayette Avenues Williamsburg Bridge Plaza, Brooklyn/Lower East Side, Manhattan Flatbush Avenue BACK TO TOP LOCAL SERVICE B42 B43 B44 B44 Select Bus Service B45 B46 B47 B48 B49 B52 B54 B57 B60 B61 Rockaway Parkway Manhattan Av/Graham Av/Tompkins Av Nostrand Avenue Sheepshead Bay/Williamsburg Bridge Plaza St Johns Place Utica Avenue/Malcolm X Blvd Broadway/Ralph Avenue/Avenue U Lorimer Street/Franklin & Classon Avenues Ocean Avenue/Bedford & Rogers Avenues Gates Avenue Myrtle Avenue Flushing Avenue Wilson Avenue/Rockaway Avenue Van Brunt Street/Columbia St/Atlantic Avenue BACK TO TOP LOCAL SERVICE B62 B63 B64 B65 B67 B68 B69 B70 B74 B82 B83 B84 B100 B103 Long Island City – Downtown Brooklyn Fifth/Atlantic Avenues 86 Street/Bath Avenue Bergen/Dean Streets McDonald/7 Avenues Coney Island/Brighton Beach Avenues 7 & Vanderbilt Avenues 7 & 8 Avenues Mermaid Avenue Bay Pkwy/Kings Hwy/Flatlands Av Van Siclen/Pennsylvania Avenues Ashford St/Flatlands/Fountain Avenues E 66th St - Fillmore Av - Quentin Rd Canarsie - Downtown Brooklyn Limited BACK TO TOP EXPRESS ROUTES BM1 BM2 BM3 BM4 BM5 X27 X37 X28, X38 Mill Basin - Downtown/Midtown via Church St/Madison Av Canarsie/Spring Creek - Downtown/Midtown via Church St/Madison Av Sheepshead Bay - Downtown/Midtown via Church St/Madison Av Gerritsen Beach - Downtown/Midtown via Church St/Madison Av Spring Creek - Midtown via Madison Av Bay Ridge - Downtown/Midtown Manhattan Bay Ridge - Midtown Manhattan Sea Gate/Bensonhurst - Downtown/Midtown Manhattan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrooklynIRT Posted November 25, 2013 Share #829 Posted November 25, 2013 That's precisely what I do with the M15 and I support SBS service. We need buses to make fewer stops and not more. Bus speeds are becoming poorer, not better. SBS is long overdue for bus customers. But the B44 and surrounding routes needed to be planned better.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted November 25, 2013 Share #830 Posted November 25, 2013 But the B44 and surrounding routes needed to be planned better.. Well that's a whole separate issue than what I was discussing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vistausss Posted November 25, 2013 Share #831 Posted November 25, 2013 @VG8: SBSBRT routes (like in my city and a few other regions here) and even New York's SBS are even listed on the ITDP list of BRT services, which are made by the international BRT Standard Commitee board so that even confirms my previous post. Anyway: it's not local service nor express service. Maybe *you* think it's local service but that doesn't make it officially local. Even if the marks it as local somewhere on the interwebz, then it still isn't really local because SBS (not even the name) is not something the came up with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrooklynBus Posted November 25, 2013 Share #832 Posted November 25, 2013 Let me clarify, since I wasn't clear. You stated before in one of your articles that express bus service should be reduced in favor of getting more folks to use the subway so that clears the BM3 up. Second, as I stated to Brooklyn IRT, when I speak of "local bus service", that also includes SBS service as far as I'm concerned. The only service I view as being truly "express" is actual express bus service, as in commuter bus service from and to Manhattan. Everything else, including SBS service falls under local bus service in my mind, so yes, I know that you said that there is too much SBS service, and that's what I was referring to when I said "local bus service". I also don't think that local bus service on the B44 will be hampered that terribly. Let's face it. Where are the majority of people going that use the B44 down in Sheepshead Bay? It's usually people traveling to and from Sheepshead Bay and not actual Sheepshead Bay residents. Most residents of Sheepshead Bay would use the B4 moreso than the B44 so it makes sense to have more SBS service down there. Also, Bus Time will be coming to Brooklyn hopefully next year, so those who need local bus service will be able to see where their bus is and then can decide to either take the more frequent SBS service and walk or wait for the local bus service. That's precisely what I do with the M15 and I support SBS service. We need buses to make fewer stops and not more. Bus speeds are becoming poorer, not better. SBS is long overdue for bus customers. SBS falls under LOCAL BUS service in the overall scheme of things. It uses the same buses that local buses use, even if they are wrapped with the SBS ads. As I said, to me true "express" service is express buses from and to Manhattan. I never specifically said you should reduce Express bus service to get more people to use the subway. I said something similar related to hierarchy of service, but not the way you stated it. You are putting words in my mouth. If there is a demand for express bus service, by all means fill it. You shouldn't force people to ride differently because of the level of service you provide which is exactly what te MTA is doing by not providing enough locals. They are forcing people to take SBS when they don't want to and that is wrong. What i said was when you plan, regarding hierarchy, you should try to get people first to use the railroads, then subways, then express buses, and finally local buses. That's why when express buses were started they were designed to serve areas without subways, not to compete with them. You obviously cannot take a subway if none exists, hence the need for express buses. By the same token should you run an express service when there are only one or two people aboard? I'm sure you feel yes you should, but there has to be a cutoff point where it becomes too wasteful. You somehow turned that thought into I advocated for reduced BM3 service which I did not. Regardless how you classify SBS, local or otherwise, there is still way to much B44 service south of Avenue U. Five minute SBS plus Ten minute locals for a combined service of 18 buses an hour or a bus every 3.3 minutes is wasteful and excessive when the ridership is not there. They can waste service like tat on the B44 but can't afford 10 minute headways on the B4 to Sheepshead Bay Station. And what's this about most riders are from out of the area with few being Sheepshead Bay residents? Where does that come from. I would say the numbers are about equal between residents and visitors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted November 25, 2013 Share #833 Posted November 25, 2013 @VG8: SBSBRT routes (like in my city and a few other regions here) and even New York's SBS are even listed on the ITDP list of BRT services, which are made by the international BRT Standard Commitee board so that even confirms my previous post. Anyway: it's not local service nor express service. Maybe *you* think it's local service but that doesn't make it officially local. Even if the marks it as local somewhere on the interwebz, then it still isn't really local because SBS (not even the name) is not something the came up with. It's not what I think. The has the B44SBS listed under local bus service, which is what they consider it, so that's what it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted November 25, 2013 Share #834 Posted November 25, 2013 I never specifically said you should reduce Express bus service to get more people to use the subway. I said something similar related to hierarchy of service, but not the way you stated it. You are putting words in my mouth. If there is a demand for express bus service, by all means fill it. You shouldn't force people to ride differently because of the level of service you provide which is exactly what te MTA is doing by not providing enough locals. They are forcing people to take SBS when they don't want to and that is wrong. What i said was when you plan, regarding hierarchy, you should try to get people first to use the railroads, then subways, then express buses, and finally local buses. That's why when express buses were started they were designed to serve areas without subways, not to compete with them. You obviously cannot take a subway if none exists, hence the need for express buses. By the same token should you run an express service when there are only one or two people aboard? I'm sure you feel yes you should, but there has to be a cutoff point where it becomes too wasteful. You somehow turned that thought into I advocated for reduced BM3 service which I did not. Regardless how you classify SBS, local or otherwise, there is still way to much B44 service south of Avenue U. Five minute SBS plus Ten minute locals for a combined service of 18 buses an hour or a bus every 3.3 minutes is wasteful and excessive when the ridership is not there. They can waste service like tat on the B44 but can't afford 10 minute headways on the B4 to Sheepshead Bay Station. And what's this about most riders are from out of the area with few being Sheepshead Bay residents? Where does that come from. I would say the numbers are about equal between residents and visitors. A "hierarchy" of service? Is that what you call it? Sorry, but the subway isn't any better than any other service. Isn't the getting federal funds for these SBS routes? Also, they can't have tons of B44s end at Avenue U. There simply isn't enough layover space, so perhaps that's part of the reason for more SBS's going to Knapp St too. As for less local bus service, sorry but most riders using the B44 are heading north of Avenue U anyway, so I'd argue that they're simply meeting demand. I mean most of the folks on the B44 are from that nursing home and those are mainly workers. After that the next big stop is Avenue X which is mainly students going north of Avenue U, so who else is supposedly using the B44 so heavily that local bus service is needed to and from Knapp St so much? I say this from my own personal experiences of having gone to Sheepshead Bay HS and having used the B44 from Knapp St. up to Avenue U. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrooklynBus Posted November 25, 2013 Share #835 Posted November 25, 2013 A "hierarchy" of service? Is that what you call it? Sorry, but the subway isn't any better than any other service. Isn't the getting federal funds for these SBS routes? Also, they can't have tons of B44s end at Avenue U. There simply isn't enough layover space, so perhaps that's part of the reason for more SBS's going to Knapp St too. As for less local bus service, sorry but most riders using the B44 are heading north of Avenue U anyway, so I'd argue that they're simply meeting demand. I mean most of the folks on the B44 are from that nursing home and those are mainly workers. After that the next big stop is Avenue X which is mainly students going north of Avenue U, so who else is supposedly using the B44 so heavily that local bus service is needed to and from Knapp St so much? I say this from my own personal experiences of having gone to Sheepshead Bay HS and having used the B44 from Knapp St. up to Avenue U. Regarding "hierarchy". It's not a question of what service is better. It's a question of economics. It costs much less to operate subway service than bus service, especially express bus service. Paratransit is the most expensive. That's why the MTA is now giving out free MetroCards to Access-a-Ride users to encourage them not to use that service if they can help it at all. They are even now paying for their taxi rides because it is still cheaper than $50 for a paratransit trip. Think of how much it would cost to replace subway service with express bus service, not too mention the extra street congestion. There has to be a hierarchy based on demand. We coudn't have express buses instead of a Second Avenue Subway. It just wouldn't work. But as I said just because it is cheaper to,operate subway service, it doesn't mean you should force people onto trains by taking away their local bus option which the MTA did with their service cuts. Every mode has its place. And the reason they are also running the locals to Knapp Street which they don't need, was to minimize the number of stops where they had to install fare kiosks. There are now fewer buses terminating at Avenue U than before. An alternative would have been to split te SBS service between Knapp Street and Sheepshead Bay Station if layover space were a problem at Avenue U, an alternative they refused to consider, although it was suggested to them. They could also extend service to Kingsborough College to ake use of empty buses. What they did was just plain wasteful. The federal funds are not for operational purposes, only for the set up of the route and purchasing of buses. The MTA pays for the fare kiosks and their maintenance once the manufacturer's warranty runs out probably in three years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted November 25, 2013 Share #836 Posted November 25, 2013 Regarding "hierarchy". It's not a question of what service is better. It's a question of economics. It costs much less to operate subway service than bus service, especially express bus service. Paratransit is the most expensive. That's why the MTA is now giving out free MetroCards to Access-a-Ride users to encourage them not to use that service if they can help it at all. They are even now paying for their taxi rides because it is still cheaper than $50 for a paratransit trip. Think of how much it would cost to replace subway service with express bus service, not too mention the extra street congestion. There has to be a hierarchy based on demand. We coudn't have express buses instead of a Second Avenue Subway. It just wouldn't work. But as I said just because it is cheaper to,operate subway service, it doesn't mean you should force people onto trains by taking away their local bus option which the MTA did with their service cuts. Every mode has its place. And the reason they are also running the locals to Knapp Street which they don't need, was to minimize the number of stops where they had to install fare kiosks. There are now fewer buses terminating at Avenue U than before. An alternative would have been to split te SBS service between Knapp Street and Sheepshead Bay Station if layover space were a problem at Avenue U, an alternative they refused to consider, although it was suggested to them. They could also extend service to Kingsborough College to ake use of empty buses. What they did was just plain wasteful. Service south of Avenue U has always been lacking, and so quite frankly, it's nice to see them reverse things. I mean seriously, it only takes an additional 10 minutes or so from Avenue U to Knapp St., so they're not breaking the bank. This is a step in the right direction. I also applaud them for having Jackie Gleason take over the B4 and out of the hands of Ulmer Park, which mismanaged that route for years. Buses are much more reliable when I take them now and are actually on time from Sheepshead Bay and from Bay Ridge, at least during the weekends (Saturdays and Sundays) anyway. Frequencies could be bumped up, but I'd rather the buses be on time then them providing phony schedules saying a bus is due every 10 minutes, but then pulling buses secretly from the line and then you're stuck waiting 20 minutes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vistausss Posted November 25, 2013 Share #837 Posted November 25, 2013 I have to agree with BrooklynBus on the hierarchy thing. BRT on Second Avenue, even with headways of every 30 seconds, would be a nightmare. It's even a nightmare in Utrecht with Line 12 to the big University park. It runs every 1-2 minutes and in rush hour every 10-30 seconds. And every of those runs is run with double-articulated buses. It's a nightmare trying to squeeze on there. That's why they're now extending the subway-like line onto the campus to accommodate Line 12. Bottom line: high-capacity routes can't be run by buses only but they can be accommodated by buses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrooklynBus Posted November 25, 2013 Share #838 Posted November 25, 2013 Service south of Avenue U has always been lacking, and so quite frankly, it's nice to see them reverse things. I mean seriously, it only takes an additional 10 minutes or so from Avenue U to Knapp St., so they're not breaking the bank. This is a step in the right direction. I also applaud them for having Jackie Gleason take over the B4 and out of the hands of Ulmer Park, which mismanaged that route for years. Buses are much more reliable when I take them now and are actually on time from Sheepshead Bay and from Bay Ridge, at least during the weekends (Saturdays and Sundays) anyway. Frequencies could be bumped up, but I'd rather the buses be on time then them providing phony schedules saying a bus is due every 10 minutes, but then pulling buses secretly from the line and then you're stuck waiting 20 minutes. If service south of Avenue U is lacking, it's because of reliability problems with the B36 and infrequent B4 service. I have not heard of previous complaints regarding inadequate B44 service south of Avenue U. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted November 25, 2013 Share #839 Posted November 25, 2013 If service south of Avenue U is lacking, it's because of reliability problems with the B36 and infrequent B4 service. I have not heard of previous complaints regarding inadequate B44 service south of Avenue U. I mean in general, talking about over the years. There was always an abundance of B44 service to Avenue U and then waits for service to Knapp St. The B4 and B36 are two entirely different issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrooklynBus Posted November 25, 2013 Share #840 Posted November 25, 2013 I mean in general, talking about over the years. There was always an abundance of B44 service to Avenue U and then waits for service to Knapp St. The B4 and B36 are two entirely different issues. The long waits were because of reliability issues such as bunching. The question is does the ridership below Avenue U merit extra service which it doesnt't, when at the same time you have 90 Kingsborough students on a single B1 sixty foot bus during the midday and you also run private school buses, and it is still not enough service. That is only one example. I'm sure there are many other examples of overcrowding that are not addressed. That is what the planning guidelines are supposed to do, make sure the service is where the riders are. While its nice that Nostrand Avenue riders will havena wait eliminated at Avenue U, and I'm sure they will appreciate that, can we afford to operate frequent articulated bus service with six passengers per bus at the same time other routes are so crowded, you can't even get on the first bus? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted November 25, 2013 Share #841 Posted November 25, 2013 The long waits were because of reliability issues such as bunching. The question is does the ridership below Avenue U merit extra service which it doesnt't, when at the same time you have 90 Kingsborough students on a single B1 sixty foot bus during the midday and you also run private school buses, and it is still not enough service. That is only one example. I'm sure there are many other examples of overcrowding that are not addressed. That is what the planning guidelines are supposed to do, make sure the service is where the riders are. While its nice that Nostrand Avenue riders will havena wait eliminated at Avenue U, and I'm sure they will appreciate that, can we afford to operate frequent articulated bus service with six passengers per bus at the same time other routes are so crowded, you can't even get on the first bus? Well explain how you would address the problem then? Artics are needed on the B44SBS and there is a lack of layover space around Avenue U, so what else do you propose? You can't seriously sit here and tell me that running those B44s from Avenue U to Knapp St. would afford such great savings to the point to where you'd be able to add substantial service to other lines that are currently overcrowded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vistausss Posted November 25, 2013 Share #842 Posted November 25, 2013 The only thing I can see happening (though that wouldn't help freeing up buses for other routes) is them short-turning a few B44SBS runs at Avenue U. No layover space needed because they can drop-off, wait a few minutes and short-turn back to where they came from. But anything other than I don't see happening to free up spare buses, unless it means cutting service (like cutting the B44 local or M15 local, for example). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrooklynBus Posted November 25, 2013 Share #843 Posted November 25, 2013 Well explain how you would address the problem then? Artics are needed on the B44SBS and there is a lack of layover space around Avenue U, so what else do you propose? You can't seriously sit here and tell me that running those B44s from Avenue U to Knapp St. would afford such great savings to the point to where you'd be able to add substantial service to other lines that are currently overcrowded. The B49 is jammed with Kingsborough students going south in the AM. Meanwhile the SBS is running empty southbound at this time. With the SBS headway at every 5 minutes to Knapp Street, tell me why they couldn't run every other SBS bus straight to Kingsborough College directly from Emmons Avenue and Nostrand Avenue? It would take a heavy load off the B49 and they may even be able to save a few B49 buses. The buses could terminate outside the loop on Oriental Blvd between Kensington and Langham Streets which is a No Standing Zone anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olegkha Posted November 25, 2013 Share #844 Posted November 25, 2013 Well explain how you would address the problem then? Artics are needed on the B44SBS and there is a lack of layover space around Avenue U, so what else do you propose? You can't seriously sit here and tell me that running those B44s from Avenue U to Knapp St. would afford such great savings to the point to where you'd be able to add substantial service to other lines that are currently overcrowded. And if two drives will have to use a bathroom at Ave U, that covern will become a cluster F with two artics sting there taking the whole space The B49 is jammed with Kingsborough students going south in the AM. Meanwhile the SBS is running empty southbound at this time. With the SBS headway at every 5 minutes to Knapp Street, tell me why they couldn't run every other SBS bus straight to Kingsborough College directly from Emmons Avenue and Nostrand Avenue? It would take a heavy load off the B49 and they may even be able to save a few B49 buses. The buses could terminate outside the loop on Oriental Blvd between Kensington and Langham Streets which is a No Standing Zone anyway. If Artic comes to KCC, It maybe tight to use the loop, especialy if there is a bus loading at the loop. With few no parking signes it maybe easier to send those busses to the left, and get them back along the canal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrooklynBus Posted November 26, 2013 Share #845 Posted November 26, 2013 If Artic comes to KCC, It maybe tight to use the loop, especialy if there is a bus loading at the loop. With few no parking signes it maybe easier to send those busses to the left, and get them back along the canal. The residents on those side streets would never stand for artics going down those blocks. They could u-turn inside the college but they probably wouldn't agree to that either. If 40 foot buses can pass others in the stand, why shouldn't artics be able to do that? I thought their turning radius shorter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B35 via Church Posted November 26, 2013 Share #846 Posted November 26, 2013 You ask if it is time to split up the local. The SBS is already split. No SBS bus goes from one end to the other. So why should it be so difficult to split the local? Who's talking about the SBS in regards to that question? I'm talking about the non-SBS buses (which is what I meant by local).... I mean, you're the one who brought up segmenting the route..... And What do you mean the SBS is already split & no SBS bus goes from one end to the other..... There are SBS buses that go from WBP to Sheepshead (and vice versa).... You asked if we should hope for more service cuts for other riders in order to have more service on NYA than there is now, and I am saying I do not really see SBS routes as a net service cut. And the objective I was aiming for was to cut costs without making net service cuts. This does not mean I do not think the B44 SBS/local should not be altered. Although I do think the southbound B44 SBS b/w St. John's/Empire and "H" should not be altered. If we should hope for more service cuts to have more service on NY av? I asked no such thing... Now you are blatantly lying, sir.... See here: So in other words, hope for more cuts for other riders so that NY av can retain local service? Is that what you're conveying here.... That's not exactly the way to go either, fam.... .....So yeah, It was a question I was specifically asking YOU; it was not a general question (which is what's being implicated when you plug a "we" into it)...... It was a direct inquiry to what YOU said about having 49's run up NY av..... All this talk about net service cuts is a nice little smokescreen you wanna put up to evade answering what I asked... Your prerogative, but don't sit there & lie about what I asked.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B35 via Church Posted November 26, 2013 Share #847 Posted November 26, 2013 I never specifically said you should reduce Express bus service to get more people to use the subway. I said something similar related to hierarchy of service, but not the way you stated it. You are putting words in my mouth. If there is a demand for express bus service, by all means fill it. You shouldn't force people to ride differently because of the level of service you provide which is exactly what te MTA is doing by not providing enough locals. They are forcing people to take SBS when they don't want to and that is wrong. What i said was when you plan, regarding hierarchy, you should try to get people first to use the railroads, then subways, then express buses, and finally local buses. That's why when express buses were started they were designed to serve areas without subways, not to compete with them. You obviously cannot take a subway if none exists, hence the need for express buses. By the same token should you run an express service when there are only one or two people aboard? I'm sure you feel yes you should, but there has to be a cutoff point where it becomes too wasteful. You somehow turned that thought into I advocated for reduced BM3 service which I did not. Regardless how you classify SBS, local or otherwise, there is still way to much B44 service south of Avenue U. Five minute SBS plus Ten minute locals for a combined service of 18 buses an hour or a bus every 3.3 minutes is wasteful and excessive when the ridership is not there. They can waste service like tat on the B44 but can't afford 10 minute headways on the B4 to Sheepshead Bay Station. And what's this about most riders are from out of the area with few being Sheepshead Bay residents? Where does that come from. I would say the numbers are about equal between residents and visitors. I'll vouch for that & say you never specifically said the BM3 should be reduced to force more ppl. onto the brighton or w/e.... However... There's something that still doesn't sit well with me with that whole hierarchy thing you made a mention of in an article a while back.... It suggests that you try to get people onto one mode over another first, correct? So How is it so wrong when the MTA does it, but it's okay when you say when you plan, you should go about a hierarchy? Because one is blatantly forcing riders onto a mode & the other is indirectly forcing riders onto a mode, "first"..... Lol...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrooklynBus Posted November 26, 2013 Share #848 Posted November 26, 2013 I'll vouch for that & say you never specifically said the BM3 should be reduced to force more ppl. onto the brighton or w/e.... However... There's something that still doesn't sit well with me with that whole hierarchy thing you made a mention of in an article a while back.... It suggests that you try to get people onto one mode over another first, correct? So How is it so wrong when the MTA does it, but it's okay when you say when you plan, you should go about a hierarchy? Because one is blatantly forcing riders onto a mode & the other is indirectly forcing riders onto a mode, "first"..... Lol...... First of all in answer to your other question while Williamsburg Plaza buses go to Sheepshead Bay, none of them go to Knapp Street except between midnight and 6 AM when SBS does not operate. The rest of the time there are two distinct SBS services WB to Ave U and Flushing to Knapp. I never really said there was anything wrong with that. The problem is that since no locals go to WB. B54 and B52 riders have to take three buses and pay two fares to go to WB. That would be avoided if the local were split as my friend suggested. About the hierarchy thing, the MTA is wrong by eliminating bus routes to force you to take the subway. I never advocated that. I was talking more about planning new services, that if possible you should try to encourage use of the subway. The only example I could think of right now, is that I wasn't crazy about the B41 Limited when it started because I didn't like the idea of someone formerly getting on in Bergen Beach, for example, and changing for the #2 train to get to Borough Hall, changing his trip to taking a Limited and staying on the bus for the whole trip instead because he wouldn't save anytime on the bus, but if enough people did that you would have to increase bus service without any decrease in subway service. You are not getting additional revenue, but now you are spending more to serve the same number of passengers, resources that could have been invested to fill service gaps. When I discussed this with the Director of Bus Service Planning in 2004, he seemed surprised that he didn't even realize this woud happen. He was bragging how successful the Limited was saying it increased patronage by like 20 or 40%. I asked him if he knew where those passengers were coming from, and if they were merely coming out of the train and taking the bus all the way instead. And if that was true, was it still a good idea? He had no idea what the passengers were previously riding. he just assumed they were all new riders because he was treating bus and train passengers separately. He seemed stunned like he never thought of it before. If he had, there might never have been through limited service offered from the southern terminals to Downtwn Brooklyn because the MTA would never intentionally take people out of trains and put them on buses. Of course if he tries to change it now, people would yell and scream. If I planned the B41 limited, I would have overlapping Limiteds, from Downtown to the Junction and GAP to the southern terminals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrooklynIRT Posted November 26, 2013 Share #849 Posted November 26, 2013 If we should hope for more service cuts to have more service on NY av? I asked no such thing... Now you are blatantly lying, sir.... .....So yeah, It was a question I was specifically asking YOU; it was not a general question (which is what's being implicated when you plug a "we" into it)...... It was a direct inquiry to what YOU said about having 49's run up NY av..... All this talk about net service cuts is a nice little smokescreen you wanna put up to evade answering what I asked... Your prerogative, but don't sit there & lie about what I asked.... You asked if I should hope for more service cuts for other riders in order to have more service on NYA than there is now, and I am saying I want there to be more SBS routes without B44-like situations (meaning, without a huge loss of service on one road and redundant service on another, and huge gaps between some stops), but no service cuts. I do not really see SBS routes (as I would design them) as a service cut. I would not have designed the B44 SBS/local the way they are now. I want there to be more SBS routes (without B44-like situations) because I think an SBS route that is designed properly will cut costs for MTA while making the system more attractive due to much-improved speed and reliability. The B44 SBS below "H" and above Fulton was probably not properly designed, and the parallel routes between Fulton and "H" need to be restructured. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted November 26, 2013 Share #850 Posted November 26, 2013 About the hierarchy thing, the MTA is wrong by eliminating bus routes to force you to take the subway. I never advocated that. I was talking more about planning new services, that if possible you should try to encourage use of the subway. The only example I could think of right now, is that I wasn't crazy about the B41 Limited when it started because I didn't like the idea of someone formerly getting on in Bergen Beach, for example, and changing for the #2 train to get to Borough Hall, changing his trip to taking a Limited and staying on the bus for the whole trip instead because he wouldn't save anytime on the bus, but if enough people did that you would have to increase bus service without any decrease in subway service. You are not getting additional revenue, but now you are spending more to serve the same number of passengers, resources that could have been invested to fill service gaps. I don't see why though when bus service is suffering so much #1, and #2, subway lines are already having difficulty meeting demand. So what if you have to spend more money to add local bus service. It still isn't breaking the bank. What's important is that it's used. The subways most of the time are packed, and as a rider, I think we deserve more comfortable commutes (as in getting a seat on the subway or bus) instead of having to stand all of the time, which is usually the case. Now granted I generally prefer to stand on the subway or local bus, but it would be nice to go back to the old loading guidelines. That could be another reason why some folks are ditching the buses because it used to be that you could say okay, it'll take longer on the bus but it's a more comfortable ride, so that was a trade off. Now however, you're practically crushed on some buses, so in those cases it's no different from the subway. The B49 is jammed with Kingsborough students going south in the AM. Meanwhile the SBS is running empty southbound at this time. With the SBS headway at every 5 minutes to Knapp Street, tell me why they couldn't run every other SBS bus straight to Kingsborough College directly from Emmons Avenue and Nostrand Avenue? It would take a heavy load off the B49 and they may even be able to save a few B49 buses. The buses could terminate outside the loop on Oriental Blvd between Kensington and Langham Streets which is a No Standing Zone anyway. I'm of the opinion that both lines should have service increases. With the B49, I would add some artics to that line to accommodate the overcrowding. I don't know what happened to the B49, but it used to be much better than it is now. The headways stink, the buses are either MIA or late (no matter when I see them or consider taking one) and part of that is because service was cut. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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