S79 Question

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I've noticed for years that the S79 always runs in packs, sometimes 3 or 4 at a time and it doesn't matter what time of the year it is. Why do they run so often in packs? It seems to have very similar wait times to the S53 and I never see S53 running in packs like that. At the most 2 back-to-back but never 3 or 4 together.

[LRG]

The S79 is an awkward route...but that's one of the reasons why I like it! :cool:

 

The S79 shares Hylan Boulevard with the S78, and the S79 gets more ridership than the S78 and runs more frequent than it as well. My guess is that because the lack of passenger boarding between Richmond and Tysens Lane (near grassland) followed by a boost in passenger boarding between Tysens to Clove Road (strip malls, car dealerships), some S79s would often zoom past the stops after Richmond until Tysens and then burdened with constant starts and stops after Tysens, and then some buses will be making pickups all the way, especially in the mornings heading to Brooklyn.

 

Good question though, like I said, I witness this in the morning when S79s come to Brooklyn...those buses are also packed.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

The S79 is an awkward route...but that's one of the reasons why I like it! :cool:

 

The S79 shares Hylan Boulevard with the S78, and the S79 gets more ridership than the S78 and runs more frequent than it as well. My guess is that because the lack of passenger boarding between Richmond and Tysens Lane (near grassland) followed by a boost in passenger boarding between Tysens to Clove Road (strip malls, car dealerships), some S79s would often zoom past the stops after Richmond until Tysens and then burdened with constant starts and stops after Tysens, and then some buses will be making pickups all the way, especially in the mornings heading to Brooklyn.

 

Good question though, like I said, I witness this in the morning when S79s come to Brooklyn...those buses are also packed.

 

Seems like they're poorly spaced... I mean the headways are 6 minutes apart and that's only at the heat of rush hour. Otherwise it's about every 10 minutes, so having 3 or 4 of them bunched in packs is really strange. I wonder if SBS would help that bunching issue at all.

[SIR North Shore]

I would blame Yukon for this, the S44 bunches up way too often and at anytime of the day too but that shouldn't happen when the headways are at least 15 minutes apart.

 

OTOH, it's kind of rare to see Castleton's buses unnecessarily bunched up along the route.

[B35 via Church]

I don't know about SI Mall bound, but Brooklyn bound:

 

I've noticed for years that the S79 always runs in packs, sometimes 3 or 4 at a time and it doesn't matter what time of the year it is. Why do they run so often in packs? It seems to have very similar wait times to the S53 and I never see S53 running in packs like that. At the most 2 back-to-back but never 3 or 4 together.

 

I'm inclined to agree w/ LRG's notion....

 

tied into the fact that buses leaving SI Mall almost never leave on time... buses either often leave too early or too late, heading back towards brooklyn.. of course you have the ones going OOS, but that's neither here nor there....

 

A brooklyn bound S79 trip (call it typical if you'd like):

- leaves SI mall... LATE

- leaves the 2nd stop inside SI mall, jampacked

- a short delay, just short of the actual depot (Yukon)... (driver change, trying to stay on schedule, w/e the reason)

- 1/4 to 1/3 the riders get off @ ETC...

- bus gets to SIR eltingville, a stalemate occurs b/w the # of ppl getting off, to the ppl getting on....

((a 2nd S79 just leaves SI Mall, or is inside SI mall))

- bus almost run nonstop b/w richmond & tysens... by this time, you often meet up w/, or pass a S78 (anywhere from empty, to about 1/3 full)

- bus gets to tysens... picks up a decent amt of ppl...

by this time, that second bus doesn't endure the level of crowding inside SI Mall, or the short delay at yukon... so it pretty much makes its way undisturbed to ETC)....

- bus picks up/drops off (at a random rate) b/w tysens & clove...

((when the 1st s79 is doing this, good chance that 2nd bus is either at tysens or ebbitts, or just short of it)))

- bus gets TO clove road... if the S53 doesn't arrive first, another 10-20 ppl pile on, while about 5-7 get off...

- by time the 1st bus gets to the toll booth area, the 2nd one is w/i minutes, behind it (or is right there w/ it), and a bus beforehand is already somewhere on the bridge....

 

a b/o that may be trying to make up for lost time, worsens this bunching problem.

 

 

anyway, to sum it up, how can I do this:

+ a s79'' pulls into 86th st

+ s79' is either somewhere along 92nd st, or along 4th av...

+ the first bus, right along with the 2nd bus, is around the vicinity of getting off at the 92nd st exit....

 

any amt of traffic, or combination of catching red lights whilst in brooklyn, makes it appear as if 3 S79's are arriving all at once....

 

 

That sounds like a mix of uneven passenger distribution, huge lapses/durations of pax loading/offloading inactivity (something suffolk's routes also suffer from, but the problem is negated by high headways), poor scheduling, all tied in w/ lateness.... something operations would have to look into, if they cared enough....

 

(notice, I only mentioned the S78 once in that little example... this tells you which of the two routes are more a] sought after, and b] used.)

 

 

sry if this looks unorganized, but it's hard to illustrate this by typing, instead of orating.....

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I don't know about SI Mall bound, but Brooklyn bound:

 

 

 

I'm inclined to agree w/ LRG's notion....

 

tied into the fact that buses leaving SI Mall almost never leave on time... buses either often leave too early or too late, heading back towards brooklyn.. of course you have the ones going OOS, but that's neither here nor there....

 

Typical brooklyn bound S79 trip:

- leaves SI mall... LATE

- leaves the 2nd stop inside SI mall, jampacked

- a short delay, just short of the actual depot (Yukon)... (driver change, trying to stay on schedule, w/e the reason)

- 1/4 to 1/3 the riders get off @ ETC...

- bus gets to SIR eltingville, a stalemate occurs b/w the # of ppl getting off, to the ppl getting on....

((a 2nd S79 just leaves SI Mall, or is inside SI mall))

- bus almost run nonstop b/w richmond & tysens... by this time, you often meet up w/, or pass a S78 (anywhere from empty, to about 1/3 full)

- bus gets to tysens... picks up a decent amt of ppl...

by this time, that second bus doesn't endure the level of crowding inside SI Mall, or the short delay at yukon... so it pretty much makes its way undisturbed to ETC)....

- bus picks up/drops off (at a random rate) b/w tysens & clove...

((when the 1st s79 is doing this, good chance that 2nd bus is either at tysens or ebbitts, or just short of it)))

- bus gets TO clove road... if the S53 doesn't arrive first, another 10-20 ppl pile on, while about 5-7 get off...

- by time the 1st bus gets to the toll booth area, the 2nd one is w/i minutes, behind it (or is right there w/ it), and a bus beforehand is already on the bridge....

 

a b/o that may be trying to make up for lost time, worsens this bunching problem.

 

anyway, to sum it up, how can I do this:

+ a s79'' pulls into 86th st

+ s79' is either somewhere along 92nd st, or along 4th av...

+ the first bus, right along with the 2nd bus, is around the vicinity of getting off at the 92nd st exit....

 

any amt of traffic, or combination of catching red lights whilst in brooklyn, makes it appear as if 3 S79's are arriving all at once....

 

 

That sounds like a mix of uneven passenger distribution, huge lapses/durations of pax loading/offloading inactivity, poor scheduling, all tied in w/ lateness.... something operations would have to look into, if they cared enough....

 

(notice, I only mentioned the S78 once in that little example... this tells you which of the two routes are more a] sought after, and b] used.)

 

And with a 10 minute gap in most cases, to have 3 or 4 bunched together is just crazy. The S78 from my observation seems to be flaky. Of late I've noticed two of them sometimes bunched together... Could've of just been becuause of the blizzard...

[B35 via Church]

And with a 10 minute gap in most cases, to have 3 or 4 bunched together is just crazy. The S78 from my observation seems to be flaky. Of late I've noticed two of them sometimes bunched together... Could've of just been becuause of the blizzard...

 

most likely.

 

I've never known the S78 to bunch.

[checkmatechamp13]

Speaking of bunching, I was surprised to see 2 S48s back-to-back near the beginning of the route (near Western Beef). Maybe it was due to all the traffic on Forest Avenue, because it usually only bunches up during rush hours.

 

most likely.

 

I've never known the S78 to bunch.

 

For some reason, the Straphangers Campaign says that it is the most unreliable bus on SI. Maybe it has something to do with route length.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Speaking of bunching, I was surprised to see 2 S48s back-to-back near the beginning of the route (near Western Beef). Maybe it was due to all the traffic on Forest Avenue, because it usually only bunches up during rush hours.

 

 

 

For some reason, the Straphangers Campaign says that it is the most unreliable bus on SI. Maybe it has something to do with route length.

 

However, service on the S48 is always flaky... You can have a few days of decent service and then weeks of crappy service, which is why I stopped using it all together and switched to the express bus. I think the only line on the entire island with somewhat decent reliability in terms of local bus service is the S53, perhaps because of its frequency. They are generally on time and actually run relative to what is listed on the schedule.

[B35 via Church]

For some reason, the Straphangers Campaign says that it is the most unreliable bus on SI. Maybe it has something to do with route length.

 

from my experiences, I'd have to give that (dis)honor to the S44....

S44 runs little more frequent than the S78, but when you're waiting for either one of them, it feels like a whole millenia passes....

 

one thing I always found odd about the 78... b/w st george & say, stapleton, I have no problems seeing/catching the things.... seems as if buses are getting swallowed into a black hole along the route somewhere b/w clove rd & around the stapleton area... b/c waiting for the things along hylan, you look at the posted schedule/timetable at any random stop, and you say to yourself, according to this damned thing, at least TWO buses should've passed by now.....

 

 

far as straphangers goes, they're probably basing it solely on the route length (they know it's the longest local bus route in our system).... the basis with which they come to conclusions are somehow skewed/unfair anyway.....

[checkmatechamp13]

Of the local buses I ride often, here is my opinion of their reliability (at the times when I ride them, which is usually on weekdays):

 

S44/S94: During the AM rush, they generally show up on time. However, during the PM rush, there are often problems heading towards St. George. On the weekends, I've noticed that there is an uneven distribution of passengers lately, even when they run on time. You'll see a crushloaded S44 (it probably met the ferry) followed by an empty S59 followed by a SRO S44 (that wasn't scheduled to meet the ferry).

 

S46/S96: During the AM rush, buses tend to bunch up in both directions (though westbound, they may just be scheduled that way). Part of it, I attribute the schoolchildren. In the PM rush, they have never been more than a few minutes late.

 

S48/S98: Generally, I would consider it comparable to the S46/S96. In the PM (since I rarely actually ride it in the AM), buses have a tendency to bunch up in the western part of the route (and by that, I mean an S48 and S98 coming together)

 

S59/S89: Probably the most reliable out of all of the buses. Out of all of the buses, they the highest tendancy to come a few minutes early (especially the S59).

 

S62/S92: I don't really ride them much, but they're pretty reliable. Generally, when the S62 and S92 run in the PM, the S62 will almost always come into CSI about a minute after the S92 that it left St. George with. In the eastbound direction, you'll see crowded (not crushloaded, but crowded) buses from Travis, and mostly empty S62s from CSI.

 

from my experiences, I'd have to give that (dis)honor to the S44....

S44 runs little more frequent than the S78, but when you're waiting for either one of them, it feels like a whole millenia passes....

 

one thing I always found odd about the 78... b/w st george & say, stapleton, I have no problems seeing/catching the things.... seems as if buses are getting swallowed into a black hole along the route somewhere b/w clove rd & around the stapleton area... b/c waiting for the things along hylan, you look at the posted schedule/timetable at any random stop, and you say to yourself, according to this damned thing, at least TWO buses should've passed by now.....

 

 

far as straphangers goes, they're probably basing it solely on the route length (they know it's the longest local bus route in our system).... the basis with which they come to conclusions are somehow skewed/unfair anyway.....

 

They do it based on how many buses arrive "in bunches" or "with long gaps of service", but, if they are doing it the way I think they're doing it, they're overestimating the unreliability of the route.

 

For example, after schools let out, they often run a few buses for the students, and they always end up leaving a few minutes after one another, so those buses shouldn't be factored into the unreliability calculations.

 

BTW, the S74 is the longest route, and the S78 is the second-longest.

[B35 via Church]

Of the local buses I ride often, here is my opinion of their reliability (at the times when I ride them, which is usually on weekdays):

 

S44/S94: During the AM rush, they generally show up on time. However, during the PM rush, there are often problems heading towards St. George. On the weekends, I've noticed that there is an uneven distribution of passengers lately, even when they run on time. You'll see a crushloaded S44 (it probably met the ferry) followed by an empty S59 followed by a SRO S44 (that wasn't scheduled to meet the ferry).

 

S46/S96: During the AM rush, buses tend to bunch up in both directions (though westbound, they may just be scheduled that way). Part of it, I attribute the schoolchildren. In the PM rush, they have never been more than a few minutes late.

 

S48/S98: Generally, I would consider it comparable to the S46/S96. In the PM (since I rarely actually ride it in the AM), buses have a tendency to bunch up in the western part of the route (and by that, I mean an S48 and S98 coming together)

 

S59/S89: Probably the most reliable out of all of the buses. Out of all of the buses, they the highest tendancy to come a few minutes early (especially the S59).

 

S62/S92: I don't really ride them much, but they're pretty reliable. Generally, when the S62 and S92 run in the PM, the S62 will almost always come into CSI about a minute after the S92 that it left St. George with. In the eastbound direction, you'll see crowded (not crushloaded, but crowded) buses from Travis, and mostly empty S62s from CSI.

 

 

 

They do it based on how many buses arrive "in bunches" or "with long gaps of service", but, if they are doing it the way I think they're doing it, they're overestimating the unreliability of the route.

 

For example, after schools let out, they often run a few buses for the students, and they always end up leaving a few minutes after one another, so those buses shouldn't be factored into the unreliability calculations.

 

BTW, the S74 is the longest route, and the S78 is the second-longest.

 

Thanks for (your) breakdown of the reliabilities of those bus routes... I don't know as much as I'd like to know about the north shore routes...

 

 

 

...and as for your reply to my (quoted) post....

You get the idea (about how straps errantly formulates things)....

 

...and the length thing, yup, the 74 is longer... I tediously figured that out via mapquest, about two yrs ago....

I just didn't wanna put S74/78 there in that last post (b/c the way the MTA had you believe before, they were the exact same length, simply b/c they both go from st george to tottenville...

 

now on their page, they actually updated/state the difference in mileage b/w the two:

 

Longest rides: The longest local bus routes are Staten Island's S78, which travels 16.5 miles from the St George Ferry Terminal to Main Street in Tottenville and the S74 route, also in Staten Island, which is 17.8 miles long.

 

http://www.mta.info/nyct/facts/ffbus.htm

[SIR North Shore]

I agree with all of you, 2011 better be the year of improvements! :tup:

[checkmatechamp13]

Thanks for (your) breakdown of the reliabilities of those bus routes... I don't know as much as I'd like to know about the north shore routes...

 

 

 

...and as for your reply to my (quoted) post....

You get the idea (about how straps errantly formulates things)....

 

...and the length thing, yup, the 74 is longer... I tediously figured that out via mapquest, about two yrs ago....

I just didn't wanna put S74/78 there in that last post (b/c the way the MTA had you believe before, they were the exact same length, simply b/c they both go from st george to tottenville...

 

now on their page, they actually updated/state the difference in mileage b/w the two:

 

The S74 just seemed longer because:

a) It makes that loop in the Rossville area (Rossville Avenue->Woodrow Road->Bloomingdale Road)

B) Since Arthur Kill Road gets further apart from Hylan Blvd the further west you go, the S74 has the additional north-south distance to get back down to Amboy Road.

 

IMO, those "awards" they give out to the routes are a bunch of BS. They always go to the same type of routes every year.

 

The slowest routes are always Manhattan crosstowns.

The routes with the longest runtime are always routes in Manhattan that cover long distances (and nobody rides them end-to-end anyway).

The unreliable routes are the ones with the longest length.

[B35 via Church]

The S74 just seemed longer because:

a) It makes that loop in the Rossville area (Rossville Avenue->Woodrow Road->Bloomingdale Road)

B) Since Arthur Kill Road gets further apart from Hylan Blvd the further west you go, the S74 has the additional north-south distance to get back down to Amboy Road.

 

IMO, those "awards" they give out to the routes are a bunch of BS. They always go to the same type of routes every year.

 

The slowest routes are always Manhattan crosstowns.

The routes with the longest runtime are always routes in Manhattan that cover long distances (and nobody rides them end-to-end anyway).

The unreliable routes are the ones with the longest length.

 

yup, the S78 is more "direct" than the S74, en route to Tottenville.... good point about the difference in distance b/w AK road & hylan the more you pan out west....

 

 

 

...and once upon a time, when I was on RD, those little awards, I used to give *some* significance to.... until I started noticing/learning more & more about most the individual routes in the system...

year 1 passes, then year 2... then year 3... and I'm like, why is it always a x-town that's deemed to be the slowest route.... Then it hit me... x-town routes are the easiest to study...

 

you can send someone & have them walk from jacob javits, or pier 83 to the UN (for example) [m42].. but take any other slow assed route, like the, um, B82.... I don't know about the new LTD they threw on the route, but the local has always been god awful... anyway, you aint havin no one agree to walking from starrett city to coney island... lol...

 

It's easy to conclude that an unreliable route, will always be the one of the longest ones....

While the S44 & the S78 are bad enough w/ unreliability, I could give you 3 routes off the bat that are just as, if not more unreliable, and are all shorter than those 2: the Q19, B4, Q38... Straps judge unreliability based on how often buses bunch, which is, for lack of a better word, stupid.... In brooklyn, they gave this (dis)honor to the B44... I'll tell you.. hell, let mysterious2train also tell you... the B44 is FAR from the most unreliable bus route in brooklyn... it aint even the most unreliable out of it's own depot [b47]....

 

(for your reference)

- http://straphangers.org/pokeyaward/10/Pokey_2010_Methodology.pdf (last page)

- http://www.transitblogger.com/straphangers-campaign/straphangers-campaign-2010-bus-award-winners.php

 

they (straps) seem to be confusing the terms unreliable & inconsistent.....

[SIR North Shore]

Those awards aren't 100% BS, because they gave the S61 the award in 2009 (S44 was second) and that line definitely deserved it. Since then, they added 15 minute headways to the S61 down from 20 and some more limited service in the PM.

[BNQtrain3912]

for brooklyn id say the 49 or 62 is the most unreliable

[Via Garibaldi 8]

for brooklyn id say the 49 or 62 is the most unreliable

 

That's interesting about the B49. I used to use that on occasion when I was back in high school and it was pretty reliable. They can however run in a pack-like manner even when they're just starting out there by Manhattan Beach. I still see two or three within a 3 or 4 minute span when I am waiting for the BM3 down by Shore Blvd and Emmons.

[BJC]

I don't know about SI Mall bound, but Brooklyn bound:

 

 

 

 

 

I'm inclined to agree w/ LRG's notion....

 

tied into the fact that buses leaving SI Mall almost never leave on time... buses either often leave too early or too late, heading back towards brooklyn.. of course you have the ones going OOS, but that's neither here nor there....

 

A brooklyn bound S79 trip (call it typical if you'd like):

- leaves SI mall... LATE

- leaves the 2nd stop inside SI mall, jampacked

- a short delay, just short of the actual depot (Yukon)... (driver change, trying to stay on schedule, w/e the reason)

- 1/4 to 1/3 the riders get off @ ETC...

- bus gets to SIR eltingville, a stalemate occurs b/w the # of ppl getting off, to the ppl getting on....

((a 2nd S79 just leaves SI Mall, or is inside SI mall))

- bus almost run nonstop b/w richmond & tysens... by this time, you often meet up w/, or pass a S78 (anywhere from empty, to about 1/3 full)

- bus gets to tysens... picks up a decent amt of ppl...

by this time, that second bus doesn't endure the level of crowding inside SI Mall, or the short delay at yukon... so it pretty much makes its way undisturbed to ETC)....

- bus picks up/drops off (at a random rate) b/w tysens & clove...

((when the 1st s79 is doing this, good chance that 2nd bus is either at tysens or ebbitts, or just short of it)))

- bus gets TO clove road... if the S53 doesn't arrive first, another 10-20 ppl pile on, while about 5-7 get off...

- by time the 1st bus gets to the toll booth area, the 2nd one is w/i minutes, behind it (or is right there w/ it), and a bus beforehand is already somewhere on the bridge....

 

a b/o that may be trying to make up for lost time, worsens this bunching problem.

 

 

anyway, to sum it up, how can I do this:

+ a s79'' pulls into 86th st

+ s79' is either somewhere along 92nd st, or along 4th av...

+ the first bus, right along with the 2nd bus, is around the vicinity of getting off at the 92nd st exit....

 

any amt of traffic, or combination of catching red lights whilst in brooklyn, makes it appear as if 3 S79's are arriving all at once....

 

 

That sounds like a mix of uneven passenger distribution, huge lapses/durations of pax loading/offloading inactivity (something suffolk's routes also suffer from, but the problem is negated by high headways), poor scheduling, all tied in w/ lateness.... something operations would have to look into, if they cared enough....

 

(notice, I only mentioned the S78 once in that little example... this tells you which of the two routes are more a] sought after, and b] used.)

 

 

sry if this looks unorganized, but it's hard to illustrate this by typing, instead of orating.....

 

Couple weeks ago,I was waiting for 79 by the bus depot.I was at the bus stop wondering when the damn bus going to come....of course three 79 went pass me....they were SI mail bound.Finally the bus came and the first one was SRO,then the 2nd one was right behind that one that bus had three people on it.I didn't understand why the 79 was late when the mail is three minute away.

[checkmatechamp13]

Maybe the delay SI-bound affected buses going Brooklyn-bound.

[LRG]

Maybe the delay SI-bound affected buses going Brooklyn-bound.

 

Traffic is definitely heavy over the bridge in that direction.

[SIR North Shore]

The thing that I can't stand about the S79 is how it's less busier than the S53 yet whenever I'm waiting for the S53 at 86th, there's a line stretching down the entire street and only 1 S53 bus to fit everyone yet there's S79s pulling up in 2s and 3s every few minutes or so.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

The thing that I can't stand about the S79 is how it's less busier than the S53 yet whenever I'm waiting for the S53 at 86th, there's a line stretching down the entire street and only 1 S53 bus to fit everyone yet there's S79s pulling up in 2s and 3s every few minutes or so.

 

Very true... I remember it being that way years ago when I hadn't switched to the express bus yet. It's sad that it still hasn't changed in all this time. Instead of having just one dispatcher at Hylan and Clove, maybe they need another one further south on Hylan to resolve the bunching problem. I often wonder if the MTA makes cuts based on these things because if one bus is SRO and then next one has only 3 people on it, it makes things look rather skewed.

 

I've been noticing that the X1 has been shaky of late too. This morning apparently they were 5 minutes late. Doesn't sound like a big deal but they are 5 minutes apart during 9am for a while and as a result the bus was SRO by the time we reached Hylan and the service road. I would argue that the MTA needs to add a few more late buses on the other runs to help out with the X1. I mean they don't seem to realize that there are people that start work at 10, so extending the X2, X3 and X9 until 09:30 would be great.

[LRG]

The thing that I can't stand about the S79 is how it's less busier than the S53 yet whenever I'm waiting for the S53 at 86th, there's a line stretching down the entire street and only 1 S53 bus to fit everyone yet there's S79s pulling up in 2s and 3s every few minutes or so.

 

Not by much though...the only reason the S53 is busier than the S79 is because the S79 is a mall route and during middays the mall is virtually empty. On weekends, especially on Saturdays, the S79 is busier than the S53.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Not by much though...the only reason the S53 is busier than the S79 is because the S79 is a mall route and during middays the mall is virtually empty. On weekends, especially on Saturdays, the S79 is busier than the S53.

 

The S53 is always busy, be it weekends or weekdays. Notice that the timetables for both the S79 and S53 are virtually identical during the weekends and at times the S53 has more frequency than the S79... The S53 is a transfer bus for both the X1 and X10, which a lot of people use on the weekends, in addition to its North-South function and Brooklyn connection.