official Subway - What If?

[Wallyhorse]

Next:

A Blizzard has shut down most of Bronx's elevated subway lines, the L between East 105 Street and Canarsie, the entire Brighton Line in Brooklyn, and the Marcy Ave Station. Reroute. Affected: 1/2/4/56/L/B/Q/J/M/Z

This is basically how the and state SHOULD have done it, but remembeing the 2010 blizzard and the lawsuits that came out of that I think it will take Wall Street being adversely affected to where some firms sue the state and MTA to bar the system from being completely shut down like it will be:

 

Anyway:

 

There is NO EXPRESS service on any lines.

 

is unaffected (the portals are actally at level ground, it's the topography that changes rapidly in some cases there).

 

operations are dependant on snowfall.  Lines will operate to 149th Street-Grand Concourse no matter what, beyond there depends on snow affecting the portals.

 

will operate normal in Brooklyn no matter what

 

may operate between 148th Street and 96th Street OR Times Square ONLY!!

 

operates to Utica Avenue no matter what.  Beyond there (replacing the if so) depends on safety of tracks.

 

is suspended

 

operates to Hunts Point Avenue no matter what, service beyond there depends on the portal being cleared.

 

operations depend on snowfall and could be suspended if portals and other areas can't be cleared.

 

operates to Euclid Avenue ONLY with a shuttle between Euclid and Grant Avenue

 

and the Frankin Avenue and Rockaway shuttles are suspended (Times Square Shuttle runs at all times)

 

will run to 36th Street no matter what BUT could otherwise terminate at 9th Avenue OR run to 95th Street-Bay Ridge via the if snow prevents operations to at least 9th Avenue (one reason why I'd be looking to doing enough rehab work to be able to open the lower level of 9th Avenue so it can be used in an emergency).  Operations beyond 36th on the West End line may be suspended at any time.

 

is unaffected.

 

operates to Bergen Street no matter what, operations beyond depend on snow levels and could be suspended at any time.

 

is extended to 71st-Continental on the Queens end if necessary.  Brooklyn end could terminate at Bergen Street if operations beyond there are deemed too dangerous.

 

will run between Broad Street and Essex Street no matter what.  Operations beyond that should be okay but could be suspended if conditions are too dangerous.

 

should be okay but operations could be suspended if conditions are too dangerous on the outside.

 

is re-routed south of 59th to 95th Street-Bay Ridge

 

is also re-routed to 95th Street-Bay Ridge with single track shuttles operating between Atlantic Avenue and Prospect Park on the Brighton Line (Brighton Line otherwise is suspended)

 

is entriely suspended with other re-routed lines picking up the slack.

Edited January 27, 2015 by Wallyhorse

[MTA Dude]

If we went with the Grand Street terminal option, then trains would have to share West 4 Street and Broadway–Lafayette Street with the and , which can't be good for the since it runs with such high frequency.

 

Not to mention how delayed the and already is!

[Union Tpke]

Not to mention how delayed the and already is!

in that case the M would have to run to chambers

[CenSin]

Not to mention how delayed the and already is!

in that case the M would have to run to chambers

Here's another addition to the answer that I just edited in:

 

Of course, you could also install a switch west of Broadway–Lafayette to bring trains to the local track, and send the via 8 Avenue, but you'd be pushing the problem to another line, and it's at the sacrifice of the , , and since their frequencies will now be reduced.

[TheNewYorkElevated]

1) No.

2) Very costly. You have a million dollars?

True.

 

I wish.

Same here. 

 

Shut the system down like they are going to do in a few hours

 

interesting response

LOL. 

[cl94]

I've got one:

A fire at DeKalb Ave on Flatbush blocks all 6 tracks. At the same time, an is stuck under Chrystie Street on the NB track, preventing access to Midtown from the Willy B. Have at it!

 

And yes, the thing was added just to prevent an to CPW scenario.

[MTA Dude]

suspended.

suspended b/t 2nd Av and 36th St. Brooklyn shuttle running 4 TPH, Manhattan & Bronx 12-15 TPH. Concourse Local.

suspended b/t Jay St and 36th St. Brooklyn shuttle running 4 TPH, Manhattan & Queens 12-15 TPH. Some s/b trains terminate at Whitehall St.

n/b trains terminate at Prospect Park.

n/b trains terminate at Atlantic Av, s/b trains express to 36th St.

 

rerouted to Chambers/truncated to Essex St.

QBL Local (to balance crowds between and .

[Wallyhorse]

I've got one:

 

A fire at DeKalb Ave on Flatbush blocks all 6 tracks. At the same time, an is stuck under Chrystie Street on the NB track, preventing access to Midtown from the Willy B. Have at it!

 

And yes, the thing was added just to prevent an to CPW scenario.

LOL on the CPW scenario!!

 

Anyway:

runs from Chambers Street OR 2nd Avenue station (alternating trains) to 145th Street OR Bedford Park Boulevard.

 

runs via the between Broadway-Lafayette and Coney Island and through Coney Island via normal route to Atlantic Avenue-Barclays Center, where it terminates.

 

Single track shuttle runs between Broadway-Lafayette and Grand Street.

 

is re-routed to Chambers Street or Broad Street on the Nassau Line OR continues via Montauge to Jay Street-Metrotech in Brooklyn if needed.

 

runs via the tunnel to Jay Street-Metrotech, where it terminates.

 

runs in Brooklyn only as follows:

Regular route from Prospect Park to Coney Island and then through and via the Sea Beach Line and 4th Avenue to Atlantic Avenue-Barclays Center, where it terminates.

 

Single track shutle runs on the between Atlantic Avenue-Barclays Center and Prospect Park on the Brighton Line.

 

This is where having full-length stations on the Franklin Avenue would help a lot because then trains can use that in an emergency.

 

runs in two sections:

71st-Continental in Queens to Whitehall Street in Manhattan

Shuttle between 59th Street and 95th Street Bay Ridge in Brooklyn.

 

Shuttle buses between Jay Street-Metrotech and 36th Street in Brooklyn.

Edited January 29, 2015 by Wallyhorse

[CenSin]

suspended.

suspended b/t 2nd Av and 36th St. Brooklyn shuttle running 4 TPH, Manhattan & Bronx 12-15 TPH. Concourse Local.

suspended b/t Jay St and 36th St. Brooklyn shuttle running 4 TPH, Manhattan & Queens 12-15 TPH. Some s/b trains terminate at Whitehall St.

n/b trains terminate at Prospect Park.

n/b trains terminate at Atlantic Av, s/b trains express to 36th St.

During construction, the MTA has also made the 4 Avenue local with trains single-tracking between 59 Street and Bay Ridge–95 Street on one of the tracks. Either leaving 59 Street or entering it, depending on the track it's using, the will have to wrong-rail across the switch crossing over the path of the . I'm not a fan of wrong-railing. It decreases efficiency.

 

You might want to simply terminate the at 59 Street on the express track since it can turn back using the switches between 59 Street and 8 Avenue. The is unable to turn south of 36 Street, so it must turn using the northbound express track north of the station. That leaves Atlantic Avenue–Barclays Center for the , which will run as you suggested.

 

In Manhattan, the could probably run local since it'll have to anyway to get to 2 Avenue. 9M) trains are already out of the way. With terminal capacity at 34 Street–Herald Square and West 4 Street–Washington Square, you could run trains and terminate them there, thus, reducing the impact on Central Park West and the Bronx.

 

trains can also terminate at Canal Street to ease the load on Whitehall Street–South Ferry.

[CenSin]

And as usual, Wallyhorse always finds a way to introduce something irregular:

 

 

runs from Chambers Street OR 2nd Avenue station (alternating trains) to 145th Street OR Bedford Park Boulevard.

Chambers Street and World Trade Center will not be used. The needs to turn all the trains it can possibly turn. Besides, you'd have 3 trains in the mix between West 4 Street–Washington Square and Canal Street which introduces delays to a line that's not related to the DeKalb Avenue issue.

 

 

runs via the between Broadway-Lafayette and Coney Island and through Coney Island via normal route to Atlantic Avenue-Barclays Center, where it terminates.

The first half is a good idea. I don't know about using Coney Island as a through station though.

 

 

Single track shuttle runs between Broadway-Lafayette and Grand Street.

Good idea!

 

 

is re-routed to Chambers Street or Broad Street on the Nassau Line OR continues via Montauge to Jay Street-Metrotech in Brooklyn if needed.

 

runs via the tunnel to Jay Street-Metrotech, where it terminates.

If The is terminating at Jay Street–MetroTech, the should not be thrown in there as well. Service problems are not opportunities to extend services blindly.

 

 

runs in Brooklyn only as follows:

Regular route from Prospect Park to Coney Island and then through and via the Sea Beach Line and 4th Avenue to Atlantic Avenue-Barclays Center, where it terminates.

You're terminating too many trains at Atlantic Avenue–Barclays Center. You can't have the and turning around on one track. Edited January 29, 2015 by CenSin

[CenSin]

Next…

 

A smoke condition at Queens Plaza station is impairing visibility within the station. The station has been evacuated and the fire department is on the case. Trains cannot pass through Queens Plaza.

 

Affected:

[P3F]

Next…

 

A smoke condition at Queens Plaza station is impairing visibility within the station. The station has been evacuated and the fire department is on the case. Trains cannot pass through Queens Plaza.

 

Affected:

terminates at Court Square instead of Continental Avenue.

 

runs via from 36th Street to West 4th Street.

 

runs via from 36th Street to Lex/63rd Street, and then via the non-revenue tracks to 57th Street and beyond.

 

Extra service operates on the and .

Edited January 29, 2015 by P3F

[cl94]

Next…

 

A smoke condition at Queens Plaza station is impairing visibility within the station. The station has been evacuated and the fire department is on the case. Trains cannot pass through Queens Plaza.

 

Affected:

 

runs via 63rd Street and is extended to Jamaica Center to replace the

to Chambers, avoiding the IND entirely

suspended between Court Square and Roosevelt Ave, use to connect

runs local on Queens Boulevard to allow to relay and make up for lost service

 

I thought about sending the via 63rd Street, but that would cause excess congestion and possibly back up 3 Manhattan trunk lines.

[CenSin]

I think the second solution wins out. You can't leave 53 Street without service. But 3 lines through 63 Street would certainly create massive jams stretching all the way down to the trunk lines. If the were to terminate at Court Square–23 Street, it would still have to get as far as 47‒50 Streets–Rockefeller Center, which is 2 stations away from Lexington Avenue–63 Street. That's where the jam is expected to occur, and when it does the would be backed up pretty quickly down the entirety of 6 Avenue, which doesn't help the on its journey to Court Square–23 Street. The would also be backed up, but it can afford to do so down to Times Square–42 Street; if the trains pile up all the way to 34 Street–Herald Square, then we have a problem. Sending the to Court Square–23 Street instead of the or is a good compromise since it's the only train that doesn't have convenient access to 63 Street, and of the , , and , it's obvious which of the two gets priority.

[Wallyhorse]

And as usual, Wallyhorse always finds a way to introduce something irregular:

 

Chambers Street and World Trade Center will not be used. The needs to turn all the trains it can possibly turn. Besides, you'd have 3 trains in the mix between West 4 Street–Washington Square and Canal Street which introduces delays to a line that's not related to the DeKalb Avenue issue.

 

The first half is a good idea. I don't know about using Coney Island as a through station though.

 

Good idea!

 

If The is terminating at Jay Street–MetroTech, the should not be thrown in there as well. Service problems are not opportunities to extend services blindly.

 

You're terminating too many trains at Atlantic Avenue–Barclays Center. You can't have the and turning around on one track.

That would be a SPLIT .  Half the trains run to 2nd Avenue, the other half to Chambers.  Main thing is keeping 6th Avenue service as normal as possible.  You are talking there of ONE-HALF of the trains going with the and for a stretch.

 

The jam-ups at Jay Street are I put "if needed" on the and have the end at Whitehall.

 

As for running through Coney Island, that to me is the easiest way to handle the blockages elsewhere.

 

For the last one, I can have the end at 9th Avenue or 36th Street OR the end at 36th if that's an issue in any event.

[Javier]

Anyway:

A fire starts at 14 Street Union Square and the smoke blocks firefighters from entering the station. The smoke has seeped through the following:

 

From 14 St to Times Square on the

From 14 Street to 1 Ave on the

 

Reroute!

[Fresh Pond]

Anyway:

A fire starts at 14 Street Union Square and the smoke blocks firefighters from entering the station. The smoke has seeped through the following:

 

From 14 St to Times Square on the

From 14 Street to 1 Ave on the

 

Reroute!

That's a mile and a half uptown...illogical, but whatever...

 

242 St to 137 St

241 St to 96 St, Chambers St to Flatbush Av

suspended

Woodlawn to Grand Central, Borough Hall to New Lots Av

Dyre Av to 180 St

Pelham Bay Park to Grand Central

Bedford Av to Canarsie

via Brighton Local

Astoria to 57 St, Whitehall St to Coney Island

Suspended

via 6 Av-63 St

[cl94]

Anyway:

A fire starts at 14 Street Union Square and the smoke blocks firefighters from entering the station. The smoke has seeped through the following:

 

From 14 St to Times Square on the

From 14 Street to 1 Ave on the

 

Reroute!

 

Spock wouldn't be happy with the lack of logic here.

 

suspended south of 96th Street, express NB south of 137th Street

suspended between 96th Street and Chambers Street

suspended

suspended Grand Central-Brooklyn Bridge, local in Brooklyn and extended to New Lots

suspended south of E180 St

suspended south of Grand Central

runs local in Brooklyn to Brighton Beach

suspended west of Bedford

suspended between 34 Street and Canal St, via tunnel

runs on between 36th and Bway-Lafayette, then over the bridge to DeKalb

suspended

[CenSin]

That would be a SPLIT .  Half the trains run to 2nd Avenue, the other half to Chambers.  Main thing is keeping 6th Avenue service as normal as possible.  You are talking there of ONE-HALF of the trains going with the and for a stretch.

Here are the TPH figures for the different routes. I'm sure some routes have had additional trains added per hour since then, so assume the TPH is actually a bit higher than stated.

 

You mean to tell us that World Trade Center can handle 20 TPH and that Broadway–Lafayette Street's local track can handle 30 TPH while the switches at West 4 Street–Washington Square, Canal Street, and 2 Avenue are in active use. Keep in mind that for this to work, the must already be on the local track at West 4 Street–Washington Square. That means that at that one station, 34 TPH must go through the local track southbound. Northbound trains can use the switches west of Broadway–Lafayette Street.

 

It's hardly normal 6 Avenue service, and you've also inconvenienced those on 8 Avenue.

 

The jam-ups at Jay Street are I put "if needed" on the and have the end at Whitehall.

And I said they should not. I was expressing my opinion that extending the should not be a consideration at all since an extended provides scant benefits in terms of transfer opportunities.

 

As for running through Coney Island, that to me is the easiest way to handle the blockages elsewhere.

 

For the last one, I can have the end at 9th Avenue or 36th Street OR the end at 36th if that's an issue in any event.

It'd be less confusing if one line were designated one terminal each. I got pretty pissed when the went down 4 Avenue and at every express stop, they changed their mind about where the was really going. It eventually ended up going down West End where everyone thought it would go to Coney Island for a connection to the , but at Bay Parkway, they got a last minute decision to terminate the train there. That's absolutely horrible. Make a clear decision and stick with it is what I suggest. If trains are terminating at 36 Street, trains should go elsewhere.

 

 

Anyway:

A fire starts at 14 Street Union Square and the smoke blocks firefighters from entering the station. The smoke has seeped through the following:

 

From 14 St to Times Square on the

From 14 Street to 1 Ave on the

 

Reroute!

Smoke has a tendency to travel up vertically through the sidewalk grates, away from gravity rather than horizontally.

Edited January 29, 2015 by CenSin

[Javier]

If you look at a video on YouTube ("Seconds From Disaster Tunnle Inferno") you would see that smile can travel that huge of a mile.

[CenSin]

If you look at a video on YouTube ("Seconds From Disaster Tunnle Inferno") you would see that smile can travel that huge of a mile.

I watched the first 16 seconds of it and realized… that isn't New York City. And furthermore, there are no sidewalk grates from which the smoke can escape; the smoke can only go one other way! Here in New York City, smoke has the freedom of choice, and given a choice smoke rises up. That's hardly the case with a tunnel where things can only go backwards or forwards.

 

Why do you think smoke conditions in New York City's subway has only ever affected single stations?

Edited January 29, 2015 by CenSin

[MTA Dude]

Next:

 

That Court Sq building collapsed. Everything south of 36th Av and west of 36th St in Queens is affected.

 

Affected:  

 

In addition, a fire near Barclays Center closed service down in that area. Borders are Jay/Smith St, Myrtle Av, Vanderblilt Av, and Bergen St.

 

Affected:

 

Look at a bus map if you need to.

[Priincenene]

Next:

 

That Court Sq building collapsed. Everything south of 36th Av and west of 36th St in Queens is affected.

 

Affected:

 

In addition, a fire near Barclays Center closed service down in that area. Borders are Jay/Smith St, Myrtle Av, Vanderblilt Av, and Bergen St.

 

Affected:

 

Look at a bus map if you need to.

For Court Sq: how is the and affected? Edited January 30, 2015 by Priincenene

[cl94]

I'm trying to figure out how a building collapse affects the , which are half a mile away. Heck, when WTC was attacked they had service running a couple short blocks away a couple days later. Same for the Barclays Center, which has stuff open 3 short blocks south but closed a mile north and west.

[BronxBombers]

For Court Sq: how is the and affected?

 

Court Sq isn't too far from the Astoria Line...

 

 

I think the 63rd St line is accessible.

 

Two Sections: Single Track between Times Sq & Vernon Blvd and Local service between 74th St and Flushing (Shuttle buses provided)

Two sections: Between WTC & Lexington Av and Roosevelt Av & Jamaica Center via Express

Local on QBL

Terminates at Nassau Av (Shuttle Buses provided)

via 63rd St Line

 

Terminates at Lex/59th St.

Terminates at 57th St

Single Track between 59th St and 95th St

Basically use the F or M.

 

Two Sections: Local between 241st St & Wall St and Eastern Pkwy/Bklyn Museum & Flatbush Av

Two Sections: 148th St & 14th St and Eastern Pkwy/Bklyn Museum & New Lots Av

Woodlawn & Bowling Green

Dyre & E 180 St

bypass Hoyt St and Lafayette St

Normal Service.. it won't be affected since Bergen St is far from Barclays Center

bypass Fulton St and Hoyt St

Bedford Park/145th to 34th St

Two Sections: 205 St & 34 St and 36th St & Coney Island

Lex/59th & Jay St-Metro Tech and 36th St & Coney Island

57th St & Whitehall St and Prospect Park & Coney Island

Single Track 59th St to 95th St