Second Avenue Subway Discussion

[T to Dyre Avenue]

Main Problem with the amount of to Astoria is where are you going to terminate them? Whitehall is full, and the next suitable place is 9 Av in Brooklyn. So we should send some to 9 Av?

It's true that you would be unable to turn all trains at Whitehall if you increase service to 15 tph. You could probably turn only about half of them there. I suggest running the other half to Brooklyn. Just not 9th Ave. I'll explain below, in response to Wallyhorse's post.

And this is why I came up with the plan I did to split the into (via Sea Beach and express via 4th Avenue, Manhattan Bridge and Broadway to 125) and (via Sea Beach and local via 4th Avenue, Montague Tunnel and Broadway to Astoria).

The becoming the main service to Astoria, done with most service in my revised plan to 9th Avenue or Bay Parkway via 4th Avenue local with SOME trains terminating/beginning at Whitehall at all times (except late nights when the would replace the in Brooklyn and run the old route to Astoria) to me is a compromise that keeps those in Astoria and the Upper East Side happy since in this scenario, the only merges would be (except late nights) the at 59th and at 36th with the and the current mergers at DeKalb and the Manhattan Bridge.

Yes, Sea Beach riders might not like having half their trains running local in Brooklyn, however, those along Sea Beach looking for lower Manhattan would no longer need to switch trains along 4th Avenue either. That's the one trade-off but it likely makes for better service overall with two and a half (of the current) lines running local and one and a half (of the current) lines running express in Manhattan with no merges in Manhattan.

 

But you don't have to "split the (N)" to accomplish this. Run the at 15 tph (maybe a bit more if track capacity allows it). Terminate half the W's at Whitehall. Run the rest to Coney Island via the 4th Ave Local and the Sea Beach Line. There would be no need for a V service from Astoria to 9th Ave or Bay Pkwy and no need to reinstate the delay-prone merge at 36th St between 4th Ave local and express trains headed for the West End Line. And why terminate a new subway service at 9th Ave, which is not a very busy station and is hemmed in by Green-Wood Cemetery? I'm pretty sure the residents there won't be calling for more subway service any time soon.

 

As for the , its new role would be primarily as a supplemental service on 2nd Ave to provide the increased weekday service that the line is projected to need. Thus, it should run only on weekdays and not more than 8-9 tph during rush hours. It can also function in this role in Brooklyn on the Sea Beach Line.

Edited August 2, 2017 by T to Dyre Avenue

[T to Dyre Avenue]

@Wally: There's no kill like overkill, is there?

 

 

Not to mention, is the ridership even there for this clusterf*** of a rearrangement? I understand the increased number of passengers on Broadway and 2nd Avenue, but is it enough to justify four or five services on Broadway at all times? I think not. Even if it is, you could bet your right arm that other riders would be clamoring for similar services which would not be a sustainable practice in the long run. For what it's worth, I like your first idea better. If there is to be another line sent up 2nd Avenue, it should be the as a Broadway Express. Running the as a continued Broadway Local would just become another merging disaster. It's too bad there's little room for a 6th Avenue express - 4th Avenue Local route from 2nd Avenue. There is room for another 6th Avenue express. It would just be a matter of justifying the additional 6th Ave service through the mess that is DeKalb Junction.

I actually like this idea too, even though it would require merging with the at Rockefeller Center, not to mention going through DeKalb Junction and switching from the bridge tracks to the 4th Ave local tracks after DeKalb Ave to merge with the . It kills two birds with one stone. It would provide the extra service that 2 Ave needs plus it would provide more 4th Ave local service. Maybe run this service - let's call it the - to/from Bay Ridge via the line up to Pacific St (Atlantic-Barclays), then switch over to the Bridge-bound tracks before DeKalb. It might even attract some Midtown-bound folks in Bay Ridge and Dyker Heights because even though the would run local in Brooklyn, it would become express after DeKalb because it would bypass Downtown Brooklyn and much of Lower Manhattan by taking the bridge, unlike the . Just have to figure out how to time it so the doesn't foul up the at Rockefeller Center or cause any more delays between the bridge and DeKalb. Edited August 2, 2017 by T to Dyre Avenue

[RR503]

That's gonna give you 3 services on one track at Dekalb...

 

Also let's just consider the merges involved in this:

 

Heading southbound:

 

-With the at 63rd

-With the and at 47-50 

-With the at Dekalb

-With the at Dekalb 

 

I like the speedy midtown service too -- I'm just worried you'll lose all those savings in a congested Dekalb. 

[T to Dyre Avenue]

You're right, all those merges would have to be taken into account. It may very well be more than enough reason not to implement this service. Probably much better to do an expanded and extended that provides all Astoria service, as well as primary service on the Sea Beach Line, allowing the to supplement the on 2nd Ave. That way, we'd have far fewer merges.

[CenSin]

Yes, Sea Beach riders might not like having half their trains running local in Brooklyn, however, those along Sea Beach looking for lower Manhattan would no longer need to switch trains along 4th Avenue either.  That's the one trade-off but it likely makes for better service overall with two and a half (of the current) lines running local and one and a half (of the current) lines running express in Manhattan with no merges in Manhattan.  

Let’s continue using the -to-2 Avenue and -to-Astoria proposal (no ) and substitute bits of your comment accordingly:

Yes, Astoria riders might not like having all of their trains running local along Broadway, however, those along Astoria looking for lower Manhattan would no longer need to wait for every other train headed for Whitehall Street–South Ferry either. That’s the one change and it definitely makes for better service overall with completely segregated express and local trains along Broadway. Plus, there are no additional merges for Sea Beach riders in Brooklyn!

Edited August 4, 2017 by CenSin

[Wallyhorse]

Let’s continue using the -to-2 Avenue and -to-Astoria proposal (no ) and substitute bits of your comment accordingly:

Good point, especially if we can keep the express levels where they are now.  

 

I was looking to where it would be least confusing, and in this formal, the only merge (if the went via Sea Beach to Coney Island at all times) would be with the at 59th.  Otherwise, no mergers and 4th Avenue riders get two local services.

 

(Note: Late nights, I would as noted before move the to Bay Ridge-95th and have IT replace the there, running the old route to Astoria).

[RR503]

Good point, especially if we can keep the express levels where they are now.  

 

I was looking to where it would be least confusing, and in this formal, the only merge (if the went via Sea Beach to Coney Island at all times) would be with the at 59th.  Otherwise, no mergers and 4th Avenue riders get two local services.

 

(Note: Late nights, I would as noted before move the to Bay Ridge-95th and have IT replace the there, running the old route to Astoria).

 

But why? It's much simpler to keep the shuttle and just do a full replacement of the . And anyway, that complicates post-PM rush/pre-AM rush put ins/set outs from CIY for the . 

 

(Also why the should run down Sea Beach) 

Edited August 4, 2017 by RR503

[BreeddekalbL]

if trump considered giving money to the 2nd ave subway for say phase 4 could it be possible that he can force them into building the easier option with the cross platform at grand street?

[CenSin]

if trump considered giving money to the 2nd ave subway for say phase 4 could it be possible that he can force them into building the easier option with the cross platform at grand street?

Trump: **** everything. Let’s make this great!

 

Yup. I can imagine such a possibility.

[Fresh Pond]

Trump: **** everything. Let’s make this great!

 

Yup. I can imagine such a possibility.

We're gonna build the SAS, and make SEPTA pay for it...bigly

[Wallyhorse]

We're gonna build the SAS, and make SEPTA pay for it...bigly

     

[R42N]

Well, as someone who lives in Astoria and sees 35% of the passengers wait for the other Astoria Line, I can tell you it’s super important to have both the and a supplemental line (the now) in place. Astoria needs considerably more service, not less, and considering that 39th Avenue/Queensboro is becoming a mini-manhattan, the TPH up the Astoria Line is going to have to increase dramatically to not have extreme overcrowding. 

 

Is there anything wrong with the current service pattern? There is always standing room on the SAS during peak periods as I see it (especially with the going up virtually every midday) and there hasn’t been one rush hour commute in three weeks that I’ve had where we don’t leave someone at Queensboro Plaza. 

 

Side note: It’s also kind of funny (in a weird way) to see Wallyhorse’s obsession of making the the 24/7 Astoria Line, in all of his convoluted Astoria Line proposals, the gets booted from it’s primary role, which is oddly coincidental, I guess. 

[Around the Horn]

Well, as someone who lives in Astoria and sees 35% of the passengers wait for the other Astoria Line, I can tell you it’s super important to have both the and a supplemental line (the now) in place. Astoria needs considerably more service, not less, and considering that 39th Avenue/Queensboro is becoming a mini-manhattan, the TPH up the Astoria Line is going to have to increase dramatically to not have extreme overcrowding. 

 

Is there anything wrong with the current service pattern? There is always standing room on the SAS during peak periods as I see it (especially with the going up virtually every midday) and there hasn’t been one rush hour commute in three weeks that I’ve had where we don’t leave someone at Queensboro Plaza. 

 

Side note: It’s also kind of funny (in a weird way) to see Wallyhorse’s obsession of making the the 24/7 Astoria Line, in all of his convoluted Astoria Line proposals, the gets booted from it’s primary role, which is oddly coincidental, I guess. 

 

This has already been addressed above. The would run at 15-18 TPH thanks to the removal of the merge at 34th Street, meaning that only the and would use 60th Street.

 

This would also mean that it could theoretically run even more frequently that the current split, whereas in its current form, you can't add anymore TPH, due to the various merges.

 

And SAS doesn't have standing room during rush hours. It's mobbed in both directions and that's why they're even considering adding trips up there in addition to the and .

Edited August 12, 2017 by Around the Horn

[R42N]

This has already been addressed above. The would run at 15-18 TPH thanks to the removal of the merge at 34th Street, meaning that only the and would use 60th Street.

 

This would also mean that it could theoretically run even more frequently that the current split, whereas in its current form, you can't add anymore TPH, due to the various merges.

 

And SAS doesn't have standing room during rush hours. It's mobbed in both directions and that's why they're even considering adding trips up there in addition to the and .

 

 

You can’t offer Astoria/LIC passengers an express through manhattan and Brighton, and a local through Manhattan and 4th Ave Express in 2016, and two years later only have one line that is a Manhattan local.

 

Of all the trains in the Queensboro/Queens Plaza complex (which is growing at an astronomical rate) there is no other train than the which provides Express Service in Manhattan and serves Western Brooklyn (also bustling) 

 

Under your proposal, you would have the following lines in that Queens Plaza complex:

 

Manhattan Local, to Financial District. 

(M)Manhattan Local, to Williamsburg

Manhattan Local, to Brooklyn via Financial District

Manhattan Local, to Lower Mnhtn via Financial District

Manhattan Local, to Hudson Yards

 

Noticing a pattern? 

 

The (and the previously) is the only Manhattan Express line plus it goes over the bridge quickly to Western Brooklyn. 

 

Too many people pass on the for it to be the only line in Astoria (people passed on the when the went express too). The could potentially be the only line, but the switch issues would be hell at 34th, so the current set-up is the only feasible one. 

[HenryB]

But... how many riders from Astoria actually need one-seat express service to brooklyn, if most of them are going to get off north of 34th street? 

[Caelestor]

Astoria riders who want Midtown (the majority) are ambivalent to either the or . South of 34 St, I'm pretty certain most Astoria riders would want local service, since the serves 23 St, NYU, and the Financial District. Brooklyn riders are better off transferring to the at Lex Ave - 59 St.

 

IMO the only practical solution is to send more rush hour trains onto SAS, with a 1-to-1 replacement in Astoria. Doing so increases the effective capacity of 3 lines:

• SAS obviously
• Every local-express merge removed increases the Broadway tph capacity by 1
• Astoria doesn't get more tph, but the reduced delays at both 34 St and Ditmars Blvd leads to increased service in practice

All trains run to Astoria outside peak hours, because honestly the current arrangement works reasonably well for middays and weekends. 

 

When SAS Phase 2 opens, SAS ridership will increase by at least 50 percent, and then the must be sent up SAS at all times.

[Jemorie]

I don't understand why some people claim that Astoria residents pass up one line for the other in favor for express service. Why would they honestly? I'm not going to believe such claims. The and both serve Lexington Avenue, 5th Avenue, 57th Street, 49th Street, 34th Street, 14th Street, and Canal Street anyway, so they take whatever comes first. Another thing is that, any Astoria residents wishing to get to 28th, 23rd, 8th, Prince, City Hall, Cortlandt, Rector, and Whitehall can either take the to the or just simply wait for the .
 
Simple.
 

But... how many riders from Astoria actually need one-seat express service to brooklyn, if most of them are going to get off north of 34th street?

Believe me, almost no one travels from one end to the other end on any line. Nearly all Astoria residents take whatever comes first for the reasons I mention above and the Broadway Express saves little to no time, at only a minute or two the most. The only runs express along Broadway and 4th Avenue via the Manhattan Bridge solely for Sea Beach customers, not Astoria. You are fully correct.

 

All trains can run up to and from SAS at all times while the serves Astoria alone with a 4 or 5 minute headway, in theory, if the wants. The only issue is that kind of frequency won't be good enough for the one-pocket terminal at Whitehall to handle so I guess alternate trains are going to have to go to Brooklyn and terminate at whatever South Brooklyn terminal I guess.

Edited August 13, 2017 by Jemorie

[R42N]

But... how many riders from Astoria actually need one-seat express service to brooklyn, if most of them are going to get off north of 34th street? 

 

 

The same riders that take the (N)/(W) instead of the . 

 

Let me ask you this: How come, during almost every midday, when there is construction in Queens, Trains are being sent up Second Avenue?

 

Why go through the hassle of switching the at 34 and switching the at 57, when you could do neither and provide the “same” service in Queens? The answer is the same reason why you won’t see the being the sole line in Queens.

Edited August 13, 2017 by R42N

[Jemorie]

The same riders that take the (N)/(W) instead of the .

 

What?

[CenSin]

Let me ask you this: How come, during almost every midday, when there is construction in Queens, Trains are being sent up Second Avenue?

 

Why go through the hassle of switching the at 34 and switching the at 57, when you could do neither and provide the “same” service in Queens? The answer is the same reason why you won’t see the being the sole line in Queens.

That’s not the reason. The reason is because Sea Beach and Astoria needs a certain amount of trains running per hour. The runs more of them, and the runs less of them. The obvious solution is to send all Sea Beach trains (which is not ) to Astoria and redirect the “superfluous”/expendable train to 2 Avenue.

 

If trains were to remain on Astoria, then some trains would have to 2 Avenue, producing a 3-way contrast between services just to maintain higher headways for Astoria:

• to Upper East Side
• to Astoria
• to Astoria

It would be much clearer to just do this:

• to Astoria
• to Upper East Side

 

And since this construction is done outside of rush hours, it poses much less of a problem. Once 125 Street is done though, the massive increase in service required would essentially necessitate extraction of the from Astoria entirely. And because that would include rush hours, the is obviously a poor choice due to the track arrangements.

[CenSin]

The same riders that take the (N)/(W) instead of the .

If they’re taking the or , maybe they need Lexington Avenue/59 Street, or 5 Avenue, or 57 Street–7 Avenue, or 49 Street, or 34 Street–Herald Square, or 28 Street, or 23 Street, or 14 Street–Union Square, or 8 Street, or Prince Street, or Canal Street, or City Hall, or Cortlandt Street, or Rector Street, or Whitehall Street–South Ferry… none of which are in Brooklyn!

 

Surely, there are other trains that they could transfer to, but it’s a cross-platform transfer at Queensboro Plaza—the easiest kind of transfer you could possibly make as opposed to navigating the maze of stairs at 42 Street–Grand Central, or 5 Avenue, or 42 Street–Times Square.

[CenSin]

I have stated in the past that the Chinese population is most prevalent in Flushing, Chinatown, and 8 Avenue, but travel from 8 Avenue to Flushing is usually not for work (it’s not a rush-hour concern). The Koreans in Flushing will use it to get to 34 Street–Herald Square. I think that could be adequately covered by the when it’s raised to 15 TPH and becomes the sole route to Astoria.

[Around the Horn]

Let me ask you this: How come, during almost every midday, when there is construction in Queens, Trains are being sent up Second Avenue?

 

Rather simple, the is the part time supplementary service in its current form, nothing less, nothing more.

[Lawrence St]

For now, but remember, when the was still serving Astoria, Astoria had more round trips because the operates 24/7. With the returning (or returned should I say), the TPH went down by a few trips.

 

Also, the is a SUPPLEMENTAL service which is why it is the only line that's getting sent up to 96th St when their doing work on Astoria. Every single part time route, let it be the or , is always affected first if something happens out of the blue.

 

I agree with whoever said to have the be the sole Astoria service when Phase 2 of SAS opens, but if this were to happen the HAS to either terminate at Bay Parkway or 9th Avenue, because Whitehall does NOT have the capacity to handle the increased service you guys are referring to.

[Around the Horn]

For now, but remember, when the was still serving Astoria, Astoria had more round trips because the operates 24/7. With the returning (or returned should I say), the TPH went down by a few trips.

 

Also, the is a SUPPLEMENTAL service which is why it is the only line that's getting sent up to 96th St when their doing work on Astoria. Every single part time route, let it be the or , is always affected first if something happens out of the blue.

 

I agree with whoever said to have the be the sole Astoria service when Phase 2 of SAS opens, but if this were to happen the HAS to either terminate at Bay Parkway or 9th Avenue, because Whitehall does NOT have the capacity to handle the increased service you guys are referring to.

 

Yes, that would have to be the case. Every other rush hour train would drop out at Whitehall in that scenario.