Staten Island Bus Proposal Thread 2012-2013

[North Shore Line]

If MTA treats express lines fairly based on ridership then yes there may be more off-peak lines to SI than just X1 , 10 & 17. Those lines will eventually get beyond capacity. Folks treat it like a subway line over there. The X14 is actually express to midtown it basically is a midtown variant of the X10. If my proposal was approved hylan blvd folks for midtown may use S79SBS to fingerboard for X14. X10 folks may switch to X14 for midtown service and X14 to X10/1 for downtown. Heck dare I say it X7 may become full-time. And tottenville off-peak transferred to X10 via SIE & WSE to cut run-time of X17 at off-peak hours. Transfers to X30 for midtown at those times Or via new super LTD route between brooklyn and SI unlike the others it is designed to tackle congestion on the gowanus and go to areas not easily reached from SI. and south brooklyn. But other changes in brooklyn may have to be made to support it. When MTA bus and NYCT merges prepare to see much more SI express service at the expense of other less utilized services. one BXM and 2 QMs come to mind already I don't see them lasting much longer.

You see, the MTA runs staten island's buses as a way to make the most money for the least amount of money. Headways as long as possible without having people sitting outside the bus and for the rush hour express lines, they must be at capacity. When service is added to a route on Staten Island,riders somewhere else on the island suffer as a result by a cut run or longer waits. They also do not do duplicate routes in Staten Island like they do in other boros. That's why the 2nd transfer system exists on Staten Island so that you have to transfer and the MTA is not stuck paying for and running semi-empty buses everywhere for everyone like some kind of local bus access-a-ride. We will never see a Staten Island local bus running beyond Bay Ridge 4th/86th. There was once a connection to the B8 for S. Brooklyn but it was a very long ride compared to hopping on the subway.

 

Case in point, this january a couple castleton lines had their headways reduced to make way for a few more runs on the S93 Limited.

[qjtransitmaster]

You see, the MTA runs staten island's buses as a way to make the most money for the least amount of money. Headways as long as possible without having people sitting outside the bus and for the rush hour express lines, they must be at capacity. When service is added to a route on Staten Island,riders somewhere else on the island suffer as a result by a cut run or longer waits. They also do not do duplicate routes in Staten Island like they do in other boros. That's why the 2nd transfer system exists on Staten Island so that you have to transfer and the MTA is not stuck paying for and running semi-empty buses everywhere for everyone like some kind of local bus access-a-ride. We will never see a Staten Island local bus running beyond Bay Ridge 4th/86th. There was once a connection to the B8 for S. Brooklyn but it was a very long ride compared to hopping on the subway.

 

Case in point, this january a couple castleton lines had their headways reduced to make way for a few more runs on the S93 Limited.

For a new brooklyn to SI route to work it must not go to bay ridge but also be well utilized. But other corridors would need to get involved. I will specify later cause if I involve SI alone it would be too difficult to explain.

[B35 via Church]

Not seeing What residents of staten island that "x21" in that map/proposal is supposed to be serving....

[Via Garibaldi 8]

You see, the MTA runs staten island's buses as a way to make the most money for the least amount of money. Headways as long as possible without having people sitting outside the bus and for the rush hour express lines, they must be at capacity. When service is added to a route on Staten Island,riders somewhere else on the island suffer as a result by a cut run or longer waits. They also do not do duplicate routes in Staten Island like they do in other boros. That's why the 2nd transfer system exists on Staten Island so that you have to transfer and the MTA is not stuck paying for and running semi-empty buses everywhere for everyone like some kind of local bus access-a-ride. We will never see a Staten Island local bus running beyond Bay Ridge 4th/86th. There was once a connection to the B8 for S. Brooklyn but it was a very long ride compared to hopping on the subway.

 

Case in point, this january a couple castleton lines had their headways reduced to make way for a few more runs on the S93 Limited.

This is very true... I thought I was the only one that noticed this... Usually if someone gets more service somewhere on Staten Island, it usually means someone else gets cuts.... This is esp. true on the North Shore so unless the bus is SRO don't expect any service increases for the most part.  That's why I don't see any service improvements coming for the X10 because they're going to say well you just got 24/7 express bus service for the X1 and bumped up service for the X17, but it's just like Jesus what is up with the North Shore??? Why can't folks on the North Shore get its fair share of express bus service?  The lines serving the Mid-Island and South-Shore are seeing increased ridership partially because folks on the North Shore are using them!!  Do they not realize that folks on the North Shore have commutes that can be just as long as those on the South Shore or Mid Islanders???

 

One reason I left Staten Island... You would think living on the North Shore would be an easier commute, but it isn't.  Even with the express bus you still may have an addition connection even when it isn't that late because rush hour service is so sh*tty on the North Shore lines.  I mean really.... I'm sure they could squeeze one or two more runs on the X30 and X14.... They've had almost the same service on that line for the last 4 or 5 years now and if anything all they have tried to do is to get the max amount of use out of every bus and cut service either officially or unofficially (just keep the bus on the schedule but that run is almost always MIA) so they roll out the same schedules even as the buses become like sardine cans.

Edited February 5, 2013 by Via Garibaldi 8

[checkmatechamp13]

 And tottenville off-peak transferred to X10 via SIE & WSE to cut run-time of X17 at off-peak hours.

 

Do you want riders along the North Shore coming at you with pitchforks?

 

You see, the MTA runs staten island's buses as a way to make the most money for the least amount of money. Headways as long as possible without having people sitting outside the bus and for the rush hour express lines, they must be at capacity. When service is added to a route on Staten Island,riders somewhere else on the island suffer as a result by a cut run or longer waits. They also do not do duplicate routes in Staten Island like they do in other boros. That's why the 2nd transfer system exists on Staten Island so that you have to transfer and the MTA is not stuck paying for and running semi-empty buses everywhere for everyone like some kind of local bus access-a-ride. We will never see a Staten Island local bus running beyond Bay Ridge 4th/86th. There was once a connection to the B8 for S. Brooklyn but it was a very long ride compared to hopping on the subway.

 

Case in point, this january a couple castleton lines had their headways reduced to make way for a few more runs on the S93 Limited.

 

Just so you know, they aren't actually making money (at least in general) running the service out here.

 

And what are you talking about? There are plenty of duplicate routes. You have the S61/62/66 on Victory, the S78/79 on Hylan, the S44/59 on Richmond Avenue, the S74/76 on Richmond Road, and the S51/76 on Bay Street (of course, as I mentioned before, the duplication is generally for good reason). But then again, this is the same one who thinks that the other boroughs have buses coming in twos and threes every 5 minutes.

 

And which Castleton lines saw cuts this past January? None that I know of, and I use Castleton lines regularly. The S46 is going to see a slight reduction in April, but that's not January, now is it?

 

Not seeing What residents of staten island that "x21" in that map/proposal is supposed to be serving....

 

It's supposed to serve the (few, if any) people who are commuting from Manhattan to the Teleport. It would use buses that are deadheading back to SI anyway, so they figure they get better use of the buses that way. Of course, there are much better uses for those buses than sending them to the Teleport area directly.

 

I mean, if they're really that desperate to serve that area, they could add some reverse-peak X10s or something and send them down that way, because at least that way, you're serving actual residents.

[North Shore Line]

Do you want riders along the North Shore coming at you with pitchforks?

 

 

Just so you know, they aren't actually making money (at least in general) running the service out here.

 

And what are you talking about? There are plenty of duplicate routes. You have the S61/62/66 on Victory, the S78/79 on Hylan, the S44/59 on Richmond Avenue, the S74/76 on Richmond Road, and the S51/76 on Bay Street (of course, as I mentioned before, the duplication is generally for good reason). But then again, this is the same one who thinks that the other boroughs have buses coming in twos and threes every 5 minutes.

 

And which Castleton lines saw cuts this past January? None that I know of, and I use Castleton lines regularly. The S46 is going to see a slight reduction in April, but that's not January, now is it?

 

 

It's supposed to serve the (few, if any) people who are commuting from Manhattan to the Teleport. It would use buses that are deadheading back to SI anyway, so they figure they get better use of the buses that way. Of course, there are much better uses for those buses than sending them to the Teleport area directly.

 

I mean, if they're really that desperate to serve that area, they could add some reverse-peak X10s or something and send them down that way, because at least that way, you're serving actual residents.

Exactly, the way they have things running on staten island is very wise and working pretty well in a business sense considering that most of SI uses their cars and have more than 1 car in most cases. That is very stiff competition for the MTA compared to dollar vans, cabs and subway lines in other boros.

 

My point being that there cannot be all these new routes created on SI without explaining how you are going to redistribute the effects of needing more buses for running new lines and/or extensions onto exisiting lines and some do not do that here. For example, the S48 needs a limited, ok that's good so the S48 gets midday S98 service but they want to keep the costs the same. So the S48 would have to run every 20 minutes and the S98 every 30 minutes to match the current S48 12 minute service.

[checkmatechamp13]

Exactly, the way they have things running on staten island is very wise and working pretty well in a business sense considering that most of SI uses their cars and have more than 1 car in most cases. That is very stiff competition for the MTA compared to dollar vans, cabs and subway lines in other boros.

 

My point being that there cannot be all these new routes created on SI without explaining how you are going to redistribute the effects of needing more buses for running new lines and/or extensions onto exisiting lines and some do not do that here. For example, the S48 needs a limited, ok that's good so the S48 gets midday S98 service but they want to keep the costs the same. So the S48 would have to run every 20 minutes and the S98 every 30 minutes to match the current S48 12 minute service.

 

If the S98 ran middays, you could run the S48 at 15 minute headways. You'd have 6 buses per hour down Forest, but the fact that the S98 has a shorter runtime than the S48 would save money.

 

In any case, I'm saying that this stuff about adding service in some areas and cutting in others isn't happening the way you said. For instance, service on the Castleton routes hasn't been reduced with the intention of paying for the S93 extension, nor should it be.

[qjtransitmaster]

Do you want riders along the North Shore coming at you with pitchforks?

 

 

 

Just so you know, they aren't actually making money (at least in general) running the service out here.

 

And what are you talking about? There are plenty of duplicate routes. You have the S61/62/66 on Victory, the S78/79 on Hylan, the S44/59 on Richmond Avenue, the S74/76 on Richmond Road, and the S51/76 on Bay Street (of course, as I mentioned before, the duplication is generally for good reason). But then again, this is the same one who thinks that the other boroughs have buses coming in twos and threes every 5 minutes.

 

And which Castleton lines saw cuts this past January? None that I know of, and I use Castleton lines regularly. The S46 is going to see a slight reduction in April, but that's not January, now is it?

 

 

 

It's supposed to serve the (few, if any) people who are commuting from Manhattan to the Teleport. It would use buses that are deadheading back to SI anyway, so they figure they get better use of the buses that way. Of course, there are much better uses for those buses than sending them to the Teleport area directly.

 

I mean, if they're really that desperate to serve that area, they could add some reverse-peak X10s or something and send them down that way, because at least that way, you're serving actual residents.

It will be offset by service increases to X14& 30 both will gain full time weekday service I expect them to use those services instead. Plus x10 north shore use is very weak. Ohh that change is for weekday middays only.

[checkmatechamp13]

It will be offset by service increases to X14& 30 both will gain full time weekday service I expect them to use those services instead. Plus x10 north shore use is very weak. Ohh that change is for weekday middays only.

 

Yeah, maybe after Victory & Richmond, but even then, it's not that weak.

 

And the X14 & X30 don't do anything for anybody living by North/South Gannon Avenue, who are the ones who would be coming at you with pitchforks.

[qjtransitmaster]

Yeah, maybe after Victory & Richmond, but even then, it's not that weak.

 

And the X14 & X30 don't do anything for anybody living by North/South Gannon Avenue, who are the ones who would be coming at you with pitchforks.

err wrong as X10 will NOT be moved off of north/south gannon ave at all. X10 on midday hours will stay on current route until richmond and victory then WSE/SIE to tottenville via X22 routing. So there will be no pitchforks at all stance nullified next. After victory & richmond ridership would most likely abandon X10 in favor of the powered up X14/X30.

[checkmatechamp13]

err wrong as X10 will NOT be moved off of north/south gannon ave at all. X10 on midday hours will stay on current route until richmond and victory then WSE/SIE to tottenville via X22 routing. So there will be no pitchforks at all stance nullified next. After victory & richmond ridership would most likely abandon X10 in favor of the powered up X14/X30.

 

You don't think reliability would be affected if you had buses coming all the way up to South Gannon Avenue from Tottenville, all the way at the other end of the island?

 

So no, stance not nullified.

[B35 via Church]

I was gonna bring that up 3 or 4 pages ago; What's with this whole bit about invalidating stances lately.... it's like dude just learned a new word or something....

 

 

It's supposed to serve the (few, if any) people who are commuting from Manhattan to the Teleport. It would use buses that are deadheading back to SI anyway, so they figure they get better use of the buses that way. Of course, there are much better uses for those buses than sending them to the Teleport area directly.

 

I mean, if they're really that desperate to serve that area, they could add some reverse-peak X10s or something and send them down that way, because at least that way, you're serving actual residents.

 

smh... futiliy at its finest - a primary (purposed) reverse-peak express bus route to the teleport.... Funny stuff.

[qjtransitmaster]

You don't think reliability would be affected if you had buses coming all the way up to South Gannon Avenue from Tottenville, all the way at the other end of the island?

 

So no, stance not nullified.

err that highway portion is rarely jammed outside rush hour plus this extension is ONLY MIDDAYS.  next. Those roads aren't going to slow it down much and if the WSE north of victory it's only one exit to victory that's it.  Err dude reverse peak can be done with x21. This has zero effect on x10 rush hour service and evening service which doesn't change.

Edited February 6, 2013 by qjtransitmaster

[Via Garibaldi 8]

err that highway portion is rarely jammed outside rush hour plus this extension is ONLY MIDDAYS.  next. Those roads aren't going to slow it down much and if the WSE north of victory it's only one exit to victory that's it.  Err dude reverse peak can be done with x21. This has zero effect on x10 rush hour service and evening service which doesn't change.

I'm sorry but what is it with your obsession to re-route just about every damn bus route? The X10 is just fine the way it is.  Either you want to re-route a bus because you complain about it carrying air (for which there are very few routes like this left that you could cut back on and please don't mention the BM4 because that route outside of Saturdays is almost down to rush hour only service) or you want to re-route routes that carry just fine.  The X10 is the 3rd most used express bus on Staten Island after the X1 and X17 and the North Shore already lacks express bus service as it is compared to the Mid Island and South Shore currently, so please with that already.

Edited February 6, 2013 by Via Garibaldi 8

[B35 via Church]

Err dude reverse peak can be done with x21......

If by "can be done" you are describing carrying air from manhattan to along south av in staten island....

 

...Then yes, reverse peak "can be done" with that x21 proposal....

 

Edited February 6, 2013 by B35 via Church

[checkmatechamp13]

err that highway portion is rarely jammed outside rush hour plus this extension is ONLY MIDDAYS.  next. Those roads aren't going to slow it down much and if the WSE north of victory it's only one exit to victory that's it.  Err dude reverse peak can be done with x21. This has zero effect on x10 rush hour service and evening service which doesn't change.

 

Err, there have been times when I've seen it jammed on the weekends. I highly doubt it's immune to traffic jams during middays.

 

Err, this X21 will "carry air" as you like to say, and shouldn't be run as a standalone route. The S46 sees low usage south of the expressway. What makes you or anybody else think that this X21 is going to see great usage, carrying people from Manhattan to a little office park out in the boondocks of Staten Island? If they're that desperate to serve it, run some reverse-peak X10s to the Teleport, or maybe X22s that continue to Tottenville) or something like that, but it'll be useless as a standalone route.

[qjtransitmaster]

Err, there have been times when I've seen it jammed on the weekends. I highly doubt it's immune to traffic jams during middays.

 

Err, this X21 will "carry air" as you like to say, and shouldn't be run as a standalone route. The S46 sees low usage south of the expressway. What makes you or anybody else think that this X21 is going to see great usage, carrying people from Manhattan to a little office park out in the boondocks of Staten Island? If they're that desperate to serve it, run some reverse-peak X10s to the Teleport, or maybe X22s that continue to Tottenville) or something like that, but it'll be useless as a standalone route.

You need to pay attention I said weekday middays only not weekends. So weekend traffic is a non factor. I am not for or against x21.

I'm sorry but what is it with your obsession to re-route just about every damn bus route? The X10 is just fine the way it is.  Either you want to re-route a bus because you complain about it carrying air (for which there are very few routes like this left that you could cut back on and please don't mention the BM4 because that route outside of Saturdays is almost down to rush hour only service) or you want to re-route routes that carry just fine.  The X10 is the 3rd most used express bus on Staten Island after the X1 and X17 and the North Shore already lacks express bus service as it is compared to the Mid Island and South Shore currently, so please with that already.

Err x10 reroute is middays weekdays only. Northshore residents would just use enhanced full time X30s or x14s instead. Some of x10's ridership is in the north shore cause they don't have a choice. If they did x10 would have no north shore riders as they would opt for faster x14s or 30s.

[B35 via Church]

....Err, this X21 will "carry air" as you like to say, and shouldn't be run as a standalone route. The S46 sees low usage south of the expressway. What makes you or anybody else think that this X21 is going to see great usage, carrying people from Manhattan to a little office park out in the boondocks of Staten Island? If they're that desperate to serve it, run some reverse-peak X10s to the Teleport, or maybe X22s that continue to Tottenville) or something like that, but it'll be useless as a standalone route.

...was my point when I made my initial post about this "x21".

 

.....I am not for or against x21. Err x10 reroute is middays weekdays only. Northshore residents would just use enhanced full time X30s or x14s instead. Some of x10's ridership is in the north shore cause they don't have a choice. If they did x10 would have no north shore riders as they would opt for faster x14s or 30s.

Dude, you were the one that said "reverse peak can be done with that x21 proposal"....

 

Don't try to weasel your way out of this one....

You [being indifferent to the proposal] and [making a statement alluding to what can work (or as you put it, "can be done") with that proposal] have little to do with each other.....

 

So tell us, how can this x21 "be done" reverse peak? Shit, I don't see how it "can be done" during peak hours !

....and don't tell me about no x10's to tottenville or increased x14 & x30 service, because those are nothing more than smokescreens.

Edited February 6, 2013 by B35 via Church

[Via Garibaldi 8]

You need to pay attention I said weekday middays only not weekends. So weekend traffic is a non factor. I am not for or against x21. Err x10 reroute is middays weekdays only. Northshore residents would just use enhanced full time X30s or x14s instead. Some of x10's ridership is in the north shore cause they don't have a choice. If they did x10 would have no north shore riders as they would opt for faster x14s or 30s.

Err.... A full time X30 or X14 route is not needed... Just a few more later runs...

[qjtransitmaster]

Err.... A full time X30 or X14 route is not needed... Just a few more later runs...

hehe its midday and bidirectional rush weekdays no weekend service yet. The off-peak design makes it look like one route one giant loop counterclockwise clockwise formation. @B35 to make x21 work I'd have it serve bay ridge then non stop to CSI then via victory and travis. Then some reverse x10s that will end at teleport. No tottenville x10s that ismiddays only weekdays. I honestly don't know why they bother serving the teleport.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

hehe its midday and bidirectional rush weekdays no weekend service yet. The off-peak design makes it look like one route one giant loop counterclockwise clockwise formation. @B35 to make x21 work I'd have it serve bay ridge then non stop to CSI then via victory and travis. Then some reverse x10s that will end at teleport. No tottenville x10s that ismiddays only weekdays. I honestly don't know why they bother serving the teleport.

And like I said there is no need for bidirectional rush hour service.  Just add a few more runs on the X30 and X14 after 18:30 and maybe one or two more in the morning and call it day.

Edited February 6, 2013 by Via Garibaldi 8

[B35 via Church]

.....B35 to make x21 work I'd have it serve bay ridge then non stop to CSI then via victory and travis. Then some reverse x10s that will end at teleport. No tottenville x10s that ismiddays only weekdays.

 

I honestly don't know why they bother serving the teleport.

 

So your answer to the question I asked is that, this x21 proposal can't "be done"....

Which is all I was getting at.

 

Your alteration to that x21 proposal is something entirely different.....

What you're suggesting there is basically a funky super express version of the x11 for Travis & Bulls Head residents, that would serve bay ridge & CSI... lol....

Edited February 7, 2013 by B35 via Church

[qjtransitmaster]

And like I said there is no need for bidirectional rush hour service.  Just add a few more runs on the X30 and X14 after 18:30 and maybe one or two more in the morning and call it day.

it's cheaper than deadheading!!!

 

So your answer to the question I asked is that, this x21 proposal can't "be done"....

Which is all I was getting at.

 

Your alteration to that x21 proposal is something entirely different.....

What you're suggesting there is basically a funky super express version of the x11 for Travis & Bulls Head residents, that would serve bay ridge & CSI... lol....

How else is it gonna get ridership!!! Hint's to my belt corridor and I-278 plan are in my version of x21 and any route I propose related to bay ridge and even SI to brooklyn more soon. I am almost done finishing it not done yet.

[B35 via Church]

How else is it gonna get ridership!!!

Lol..... You're making my point by asking that !!

[qjtransitmaster]

Lol..... You're making my point by asking that !!

I never refuted your point in the first place. tehe. MTA's logic is it's cheaper to operate than x11 deadheads.   Which is true 3 riders is better than no riders LOL.