Obamacare: Who Stands to Win or Lose?

[CenSin]

But the insurance companies will not take financial losses. Under the proposal if they agree to provide lower costs to say employers for coverage the federal government in turn will reimburse the insurance companies. Which means that the middle class will not have to worry with higher premiums either.

From an overall view, this is cost that will be passed down to us citizens anyway. Money spent on insurance subsidies will be less money to other projects and services that compete for funding from the government. Somehow, it will have to be paid for whether it's tax increases or cuts to things that might be essential. --just stating the obvious here

[realizm]

Well if that's the case then explain why many of them are refusing to take part in the Obamacare program??  Also, the idea of the government "reimbursing" insurance companies for loses is a terrible idea.  That money comes from taxpayers and it is quite expensive to have the government doing this.  We don't have the money for this and monies will have to come from somewhere to pay for it and I would imagine that tax hikes would be the only way.  It's a bold plan to get Americans insured, but healthcare costs continue to skyrocket in particular because too many Americans are obese, leading to chronic care and unnecessary costs.

 

Also, you will see as more Americans become obese, fewer of them will be able to work steadily or be productive because of their obese illnesses, which will mean less taxpayer dollars coming in.  You have to impose initiatives to get people to eat better and not just say well we're covering everyone without tackling the root of the problem.  Why is it for example that these people are convinced that they're better off going to a McDonald's to eat rather than going to a supermarket?  I'm not just talking about from a cost point of view but a health point of view as well.

 

Again as I was bringing as a point to Censin, one of the reasons for skyrocketing costs of healthcare is malpractice insurance costs on the part of hospitals which are the targets of civil lawsuits as well as the main fact being that the Baby Boomer generation are mostly comprised of senior citizens. 

From an overall view, this is cost that will be passed down to us citizens anyway. Money spent on insurance subsidies will be less money to other projects and services that compete for funding from the government. Somehow, it will have to be paid for whether it's tax increases or cuts to things that might be essential. --just stating the obvious here

 

Like defense spending? We don't need to constantly supply aid to foreign countries to build up the western bloc when we have domestic issues to contend with. Look at the big picture please.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Again as I was bringing as a point to Censin, one of the reasons for skyrocketing costs of healthcare is malpractice insurance costs on the part of hospitals which are the targets of civil lawsuits as well as the main fact being that the Baby Boomer generation are mostly comprised of senior citizens. 

Yes, but malpractice can be dealt with and the costs associated from that can be remedied, the same way that the costs from irresponsible diets and health practices can be remedied, but you must first tackle those problems before you can expect insurers to feel like they have a fighting chance with this new program to remain competitive.

[realizm]

Yes, but malpractice can be dealt with and the costs associated from that can be remedied, the same way that the costs from irresponsible diets and health practices can be remedied, but you must first tackle those problems before you can expect insurers to feel like they have a fighting chance with this new program to remain competitive.

 

Those problems are in the minority where it comes to age groups not social classes, that's what I am showing you. Therefore the conclusion that the costs are going up with the health complications of the Baby Boomer generation itself.

 

Really another reason we are having this problem is because of national inflation as well, in an indirect sense. This is upping the costs of healthcare as the costs of equipment, housing in the hospitals, treatment and payroll expenses are rising, which brings up healthcare costs at the expense of the providers, another reason I will bring into this discussion as it progresses.

[rr4567]

We get it.  You get a lot for your money at McDonald's but the question is what is the nutritional value?  Hamburger buns and patties that apparently NEVER spoil, so what exactly is in these "hamburgers" and "buns"?  They're able to offer it cheap by using loads of cheap chemicals and buying in bulk. Remember that the less manual labor that is involved and the more cheap chemicals used, the cheaper the overall "food" product is and I put food in quotes because humans were not made to be eating "food" with tons of chemicals in it because it's harder for the body to process and break down. \

 

Same thing with the soda that they sell.  They buy it in bulk, and use the cheapest chemicals possible to compose the drink.  So yeah, you'll be full, but you'll also probably be obese or have health complications.  They buy cheap oil, and potatoes are relatively cheap as well.  These items are not meant to be for daily consumption but rather as a sometime thing, and I wouldn't even eat them then, when I have no idea what I'm eating from a food standpoint.  If you can't pronounce the ingredients in the so called food that you're eating, then 9 times out of 10 you probably shouldn't be eating it.

McDonald's = vomit, that is all. (P.S.: wasn't talking about McDonald's in my post. I don't eat that literal shit.)

 

Actually, the dollar menu doesn't include tax, so $9 would get you just about $8 worth on the dollar menu. I doubt that amount of food would sustain you for more than a few days though.

What I listed is $8 worth of stuff

[realizm]

All McDonald's burgers consists of is celluose, fried foods oversaturated with fat, and the conditions under which it is prepared is questionable. I mean the joint itself has this stale sick smell to it. Personally it's a turnoff for me. 

 

One really don't get alot out MdDonald's for 8 bucks for what's it worth. For those who may be struggling, I would say it's always better to cook nutritious food from home and plan for outings at good restaurants, say once a week as a treat. Make a day out of it with friends and family have some drinks, beer, wine, some liquor (in moderation of course) and call it the day. Saves the hassle of washing the dishes.

 

Yes perhaps the money may be coming out of our own pockets with this tentative plan, but isn't that what is happening now with the exorbitant taxes we are paying, such money being wasted? The plan makes use of the loose change lying around. It promotes better management of federal funds allocated for the healthcare of millions. I think it is the best way out so that all classes can benefit.

 

I still stand on the fact that the poor working class needs a break already. Understood that the middle class is reeling from a downturn in the economy but the poor working class are in a worse condition. The lawmakers needs to find a way to lower the rate of inflation, this is the ultimate problem. Instead of unnecessarily sending million of dollars of foreign aid to countries at the expense of us.

 

I may sound cold in saying that but I think that is strictly common sense. Worry about what is going on in your own backyard first then worry about world affairs. 

[Astoria Line]

No it isn't. And which obesity rates, the ones that are lower? Okay.

 

It comes down to money. Eating healthily and organically is unfortunately a privilege for the upper class in much of America and for the middle class and upper class in cities.

Nah I actually agree with VG8 for once....

 

I grew up in the lower class while growing up, but my family was able to buy healthier food for me, I didn't grow up eating that mcdonalds crap (I did have the occasional slice of pizza, but who doesn't like pizza? )

 

even now.... with $10, I can get enough veggies (carrots, lettuce, tomato) and fruits (bananas, oranges, apples, grapes) to last myself a week....

 

it really isn't hard (at least not for me), its just that many don't wanna take the time to do it. Also many of these items are covered by food stamps for those who receive them.

[LTA1992]

Am I the only one that knows that Obesity isn't just about what you eat, but can also be genetic?

[Turbo19]

Am I the only one that knows that Obesity isn't just about what you eat, but can also be genetic?

No, though self inflicted weight gain is the most predominant cause, and as such is considered an unnecessary use of funds to pay for healthcare for any ailments related to said self inflicted weight gain.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Nah I actually agree with VG8 for once....

 

I grew up in the lower class while growing up, but my family was able to buy healthier food for me, I didn't grow up eating that mcdonalds crap (I did have the occasional slice of pizza, but who doesn't like pizza? )

 

even now.... with $10, I can get enough veggies (carrots, lettuce, tomato) and fruits (bananas, oranges, apples, grapes) to last myself a week....

 

it really isn't hard (at least not for me), its just that many don't wanna take the time to do it. Also many of these items are covered by food stamps for those who receive them.

Yep I think they even take food stamps at Whole Foods, though I don't see tons of folks on food stamps shopping there, probably because they are either too lazy to make the trip or don't care to be bothered.  I guess they use cards these days but I have on occasion seen some folks in there that were stocking up for what seemed like a months' worth of food and they seemed pretty content to be able to shop there with their food stamp card or whatever.  In fact that was something that was often criticized about the program in that people didn't have access to healthy food, but heck if you can shop at the high end places with food stamps now, there really isn't an excuse.

 

Am I the only one that knows that Obesity isn't just about what you eat, but can also be genetic?

Oh please.  It's been shown over and over that most obesity cases are caused by what you eat and a lack of exercise.  Genetics can certainly be a factor, but those cases are not that common to be using that as an excuse as to why 66% of the population is overweight.  Try again.

[realizm]

Yep I think they even take food stamps at Whole Foods, though I don't see tons of folks on food stamps shopping there, probably because they are either too lazy to make the trip or don't care to be bothered.  I guess they use cards these days but I have on occasion seen some folks in there that were stocking up for what seemed like a months' worth of food and they seemed pretty content to be able to shop there with their food stamp card or whatever.  In fact that was something that was often criticized about the program in that people didn't have access to healthy food, but heck if you can shop at the high end places with food stamps now, there really isn't an excuse.

 

Oh please.  It's been shown over and over that most obesity cases are caused by what you eat and a lack of exercise.  Genetics can certainly be a factor, but those cases are not that common to be using that as an excuse as to why 66% of the population is overweight.  Try again.

 

I'll try it. As promised, source: http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/health-topics/topics/obe/causes.html

 

Environment

 

Our environment doesn't support healthy lifestyle habits; in fact, it encourages obesity. Some reasons include:

• Lack of neighborhood sidewalks and safe places for recreation. Not having area parks, trails, sidewalks, and affordable gyms makes it hard for people to be physically active.
• Work schedules. People often say that they don't have time to be physically active because of long work hours and time spent commuting.
• Oversized food portions. Americans are exposed to huge food portions in restaurants, fast food places, gas stations, movie theaters, supermarkets, and even at home. Some of these meals and snacks can feed two or more people. Eating large portions means too much energy IN. Over time, this will cause weight gain if it isn't balanced with physical activity.
• Lack of access to healthy foods. Some people don't live in neighborhoods that have supermarkets that sell healthy foods, such as fresh fruits and vegetables. Or, for some people, these healthy foods are too costly.
• Food advertising. Americans are surrounded by ads from food companies. Often children are the targets of advertising for high-calorie, high-fat snacks and sugary drinks. The goal of these ads is to sway people to buy these high-calorie foods, and often they do.

 

Emotional Factors

 

Some people eat more than usual when they're bored, angry, or stressed. Over time, overeating will lead to weight gain and may cause overweight or obesity.

 

It is apparent from this source that in the ghettos, where people are forced to work long hours cannot afford the time or expense to recreational activities or fancy gyms and affordable healthcare (wasn't that the point of this discussion?) because of living at minimum wage. Affordable ealthy foods are not available in abundance in lower income class neighborhoods.

 

People who work stressful hours in the sweat shops are psychologically affected from being overworked at minimum wage and even less to make ends meet. This in terms leads to overeating.

 

Shall we shift the debate into a rich vs poor class discussion, apparently this is where you are trying to debunk the core issue regarding the dynamics of a failing healthcare system at the federal level. I'll be more than happy to play with your derailing tactic be my guest. Which alludes to MHV9218's point if you recall which I agree with. The facts are there.

 

Keep in mind there are many people of the middle class who also suffers from obesity. Seems you forgot to acknowledge that in this discussion. I can provide more sources and talk about this further if you like as if this is a civil court case and you are the defense lawyer speaking the cause for the upper middle class and I am the attorney defending the case for the poor. Feel free to respond as you have the time.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

 

I'll try it. As promised, source: http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/health-topics/topics/obe/causes.html

 

 

 

It is apparent from this source that in the ghettos, where people are forced to work long hours cannot afford the time or expense to recreational activities or fancy gyms and affordable healthcare (wasn't that the point of this discussion?) because of living at minimum wage. Affordable ealthy foods are not available in abundance in lower income class neighborhoods.

 

People who work stressful hours in the sweat shops are psychologically affected from being overworked at minimum wage and even less to make ends meet. This in terms leads to overeating.

 

Shall we shift the debate into a rich vs poor class discussion, apparently this is where you are trying to debunk the core issue regarding the dynamics of a failing healthcare system at the federal level. I'll be more than happy to play with your derailing tactic be my guest. Which alludes to MHV9218's point if you recall which I agree with. The facts are there.

 

Keep in mind there are many people of the middle class who also suffers from obesity. Seems you forgot to acknowledge that in this discussion. I can provide more sources and talk about this further if you like as if this is a civil court case and you are the defense lawyer speaking the cause for the upper middle class and I am the attorney defending the case for the poor. Feel free to respond as you have the time.

lol... Seriously now, if 66% of the population is overweight then obviously it isn't just poor people not eating well.  

 

I just refuse to give in to these ridiculous "reasons" as to why people are overweight.  Most people these days regardless of economic class work long hours, including myself, and I still somehow manage to make time to go to the market and get healthy food, so that's not a legitimate excuse in my book. They don't have time to go to the supermarket, but they the time to go McDonald's and wait in a long line for burgers and fries or stuff themselves at Applebee's... Not sure I'm seeing the difference...

 

Now if you want to argue money then sure, but those on welfare are allowed to shop at places that sell natural and organic food now and it doesn't have to be Whole Foods either.  Trader Joe's is a quality alternative without the price tag.

[realizm]

lol... Seriously now, if 66% of the population is overweight then obviously it isn't just poor people not eating well.  

 

I just refuse to give in to these ridiculous "reasons" as to why people are overweight.  Most people these days regardless of economic class work long hours, including myself, and I still somehow manage to make time to go to the market and get healthy food, so that's not a legitimate excuse in my book. They don't have time to go to the supermarket, but they the time to go McDonald's and wait in a long line for burgers and fries or stuff themselves at Applebee's... Not sure I'm seeing the difference...

 

Now if you want to argue money then sure, but those on welfare are allowed to shop at places that sell natural and organic food now and it doesn't have to be Whole Foods either.  Trader Joe's is a quality alternative without the price tag.

 

Ridiculous? Please let's not go into an infinite loop of rambling and stay on point here.

 

You have to consider that even as SNAP benefit guidelines allows for organic food shopping that there is a limit in terms of what a family can spend. Forcing such poor families to go to cheaper supermarkets for substandard cuts of meat and expired vegetables and dairy products that are low quality. 

 

No not all people of the higher economic class needs to work long hours, it's simple they have a higher income to meet their needs. Those of the lower economic class do not have such privileges. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Ridiculous? Please let's not go into an infinite loop of rambling and stay on point here.

 

You have to consider that even as SNAP benefit guidelines allows for organic food shopping that there is a limit in terms of what a family can spend. Forcing such poor families to go to cheaper supermarkets for substandard cuts of meat and expired vegetables and dairy products that are low quality. 

 

No not all people of the higher economic class needs to work long hours, it's simple they have a higher income to meet their needs. Those of the lower economic class do not have such privileges. 

lol... So which is it? On the one hand you argue that poor people don't have the time. Now you're saying that it's a money issue...

[realizm]

lol... So which is it? On the one hand you argue that poor people don't have the time. Now you're saying that it's a money issue...

 

Which is it? It's a combination of both. It's good to see shades of grey when percieving the world instead of looking at everything in black and white metaphorically speaking.

 

It's not simply that cut and dry.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Which is it? It's a combination of both. It's good to see shades of grey when percieving the world instead of looking at everything in black and white metaphorically speaking.

 

It's not simply that cut and dry.

I'm just trying to understand why their schedules are so much more "impossible" than someone of a different economic class that works just as long if not longer...

[realizm]

Struggling to pay the rent which is skyrocketing. Working two jobs or more even at minimum wage. Repeat, minimum wage. Should I say it again a third time?  Children's mouths to feed. Insufficient environmental factors in the ghettos causing psychological effects in turn causing a deteriorating in health against rising healthcare costs and a stagnant healthcare system as it stands now. Plenty of reasons. More reasons which I am too exasperated at this point to list here with your way of dodging the argument without understanding.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Struggling to pay the rent which is skyrocketing. Working two jobs or more even at minimum wage. Repeat, minimum wage. Should I say it again a third time?  Children's mouths to feed. Insufficient environmental factors in the ghettos causing psychological effects in turn causing a deteriorating in health against rising healthcare costs and a stagnant healthcare system as it stands now. Plenty of reasons. More reasons which I am too exasperated at this point to list here with your way of dodging the argument without understanding.

These are issues that many families face, not just poor ones...  I think most people are struggling in the recession.  

[MHV9218]

Nah I actually agree with VG8 for once....

 

I grew up in the lower class while growing up, but my family was able to buy healthier food for me, I didn't grow up eating that mcdonalds crap (I did have the occasional slice of pizza, but who doesn't like pizza? )

 

even now.... with $10, I can get enough veggies (carrots, lettuce, tomato) and fruits (bananas, oranges, apples, grapes) to last myself a week....

 

it really isn't hard (at least not for me), its just that many don't wanna take the time to do it. Also many of these items are covered by food stamps for those who receive them.

 

I mean, good for you, but that case is the exception, not the norm. I'm not this pulling this out of my ass, there's been a lot of research that shows that the less money you have the more likely you'll turn to fast and unhealthy foods for a quick meal (often during a long work day) that fills you up for a long time. It's also different for kids as opposed to adults, as when you're a student you're not exactly doing manual labor work all day, which requires more food than just carrots and tomatoes. 

[bobtehpanda]

So I'm just going to put this passage by George Orwell out here, because it seems relevant:

 

 

Now compare this list with the unemployed miner's budget that I gave earlier. The miner's family spend only tenpence a week on green vegetables and tenpence half-penny on milk (remember that one of them is a child less than three years old), and nothing on fruit; but they spend one and nine on sugar (about eight pounds of sugar, that is) and a shilling on tea. The half-crown spent on meat might represent a small joint and the materials for a stew; probably as often as not it would represent four or five tins of bully beef. The basis of their diet, therefore, is white bread and margarine, corned beef, sugared tea, and potatoes--an appalling diet.

 

Would it not be better if they spent more money on wholesome things like oranges and wholemeal bread or if they even, like the writer of the letter to the New Statesman, saved on fuel and ate their carrots raw? Yes, it would, but the point is that no ordinary human being is ever going to do such a thing. The ordinary human being would sooner starve than live on brown bread and raw carrots. And the peculiar evil is this, that the less money you have, the less inclined you feel to spend it on wholesome food. A millionaire may enjoy breakfasting off orange juice and Ryvita biscuits; an unemployed man doesn't.

 

Here the tendency of which I spoke at the end of the last chapter comes into play. When you are unemployed, which is to say when you are underfed, harassed, bored, and miserable, you don't want to eat dull wholesome food. You want something a little bit 'tasty'. There is always some cheaply pleasant thing to tempt you. Let's have three pennorth of chips! Run out and buy us a twopenny ice-cream! Put the kettle on and we'll all have a nice cup of tea! That is how your mind works when you are at the P.A.C. level. White bread-and-marg and sugared tea don't nourish you to any extent, but they are nicer (at least most people think so) than brown bread-and-dripping and cold water. Unemployment is an endless misery that has got to be constantly palliated, and especially with tea, the English-man's opium. A cup of tea or even an aspirin is much better as a temporary stimulant than a crust of brown bread.

 

I'd also like to point out that there have been many celebrities who have attempted a healthy food stamp diet and failed. (The secret to cheap healthy food is buying everything in Chinatown, tbh.)

[CenSin]

So I'm just going to put this passage by George Orwell out here, because it seems relevant:

 

 

I'd also like to point out that there have been many celebrities who have attempted a healthy food stamp diet and failed. (The secret to cheap healthy food is buying everything in Chinatown, tbh.)

It's really how you condition yourself. My diet is pretty bland to most people who eat out all the time and crave a lot of junk, but the point is that I've conditione myself to like what I eat. Bake a meat pie for someone and right before they dig in, tell them it's dog and horse meat. If they've been conditioned like most Americans to think of either meats as unappetizing, they'll lose their appetite. Fast food to me is like pork to Jews is like dog meat to most Americans. It's a shame that most don't have the same inhibitions.

 

Raw carrot and bread, by the way, is a pretty shitty diet and nutritionally crap. Even on food stamps the poorest Americans could do better. This is because I have a friend that's doing it, and I honestly think it would be difficult for his family to go lower since they're almost entirely dependent on the government to provide for them while they're job-hunting.

[CenSin]

Obamacare will cost an average of $328 per month across the nation. Many of the poor will get subsidies, and the few rich and upper-middle class will pick up the tab. Now the question is: pay the $99 penalty per year or ~$328 per month for insurance I don't need?

 

http://news.yahoo.com/obamacares-average-monthly-cost-across-u-328-040209815.html

(Read the comments section too.)

[mfs NJT459]

I think whatever Sen Ted Cruz says in this faux filibuster, Americans believe in him

just came across this on twitter... as Ted Cruz was reading Green Eggs and Ham lololol

 

[LTA1992]

Obamacare will cost an average of $328 per month across the nation. Many of the poor will get subsidies, and the few rich and upper-middle class will pick up the tab. Now the question is: pay the $99 penalty per year or ~$328 per month for insurance I don't need?

 

http://news.yahoo.com/obamacares-average-monthly-cost-across-u-328-040209815.html

(Read the comments section too.)

I'll take the 99 Dollar fee for 200 Alex.

[mfs NJT459]

I think whatever Sen Ted Cruz says in this faux filibuster, Americans believe in him

 

just came across this on twitter... as Ted Cruz was reading Green Eggs and Ham lololol

 (pic)

just so everyone is aware, those 2 girls are actually Ted's daughters