Harry Posted August 25, 2008 Share #1 Posted August 25, 2008 I want to get a good discussion on the proposed Empire Corridor high speed rail service between New York, Albany and Buffalo including the cities of Rochester, Syracuse, Utica and Schenectedy. Segment: New York, Albany to Buffalo Mileage: 439 Travel Time (Goal): ??? Discuss- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trainfan22 Posted August 25, 2008 Share #2 Posted August 25, 2008 I think it would be an great idea to have high speed rail between NYP and Albany. They could GOH the turbotrain sets or buy new ones. Or they could put overhead wire and run the acela to albany. But running north of albany would be hard to do IMO. Being that CSX owns those tracks and their trains get proity over amtrak trains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metsfan Posted August 25, 2008 Share #3 Posted August 25, 2008 I say high speed rail (when i say high speed i mean over 90 mph) needs to expand outside the northeast corridor. It will never be 100% profitable to run things as they are now along freight rights of way, waiting for them to move stuff through etc. I believe & have said in the past that states need to take control of their destiny and either take over amtrak operations, or allow amtrak to build their own ROW, even if its right next to current freight tracks to allow not only electrified service, but also high speed electrified service on a higher quality length of track. I think it is a huge shame that rail mass transit has taken such a back seat to highways etc being built, sometimes cutting off or removing tracks in the process. I think its time for the usa to stop being the laughing stock of the world when it comes to passenger rail transportation. The investment needed to create viable high speed service on both the empire & keystone corridor is large, but completely possible & doable. Here is amtrak's page on the empire corridor: http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=Amtrak/am2Route/Horizontal_Route_Page&c=am2Route&cid=1081256321901&ssid=134 The stations along this route are actually very nice but many need ticket offices & baggage areas. How about small hotels/motels in case of service interruption? - Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pablo M 201 Posted August 25, 2008 Share #4 Posted August 25, 2008 Electrification is the way to go first. Once you get that set, its only a matter of time til you get the line up and running. It could help Metro-North, they can run M8s up to Poughkeepsie. If Amtrak does decide to piggyback off the NJT ALP-46A order, then their set for locomotives, and then order something else for the cars if they don't want to use the AmFleets. And then even greater help to them is getting ALP-45DPs (the NJT Dual Power locomotives that also Montreal AMT is piggybacking off the order). So Amtrak's options are endless with this so hopefully the right decisions will be made because this will really make them look even better in NY. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metsfan Posted August 25, 2008 Share #5 Posted August 25, 2008 Electrification is the way to go first. Once you get that set, its only a matter of time til you get the line up and running. It could help Metro-North, they can run M8s up to Poughkeepsie. If Amtrak does decide to piggyback off the NJT ALP-46A order, then their set for locomotives, and then order something else for the cars if they don't want to use the AmFleets. And then even greater help to them is getting ALP-45DPs (the NJT Dual Power locomotives that also Montreal AMT is piggybacking off the order). So Amtrak's options are endless with this so hopefully the right decisions will be made because this will really make them look even better in NY. I think they could buy or lease comet 2's from (NJT) in the first phase, then after that get acela style cars but hooked to the alp-46a/alp-45. Also seeing as sunnyside could be expanded you could put overhauled amfleet cars there as well. I say a must would be a first come first serve pay on board lounge car with credit/debit card and cash fare machines tucked away somewhere, maybe near the end through doors. You pay, and it gives you a lounge car ticket. Maybe have 2 of those lounge cars & 2-3 coach cars? Also, offer empire service out of GCT if possible a few trains a day for ESA riders & people coming in from non hudson line MNRR. Introduce a fare card that allows payment on the lounge car, ticket machines for amtrak, and that can work as a metrocard. It could be called the empire card? You could use it as a monthly pass on amtrak, but when used for subway, bus, or the tramway, it acts like a regular pay per use metrocard. This way if you no longer want to use it via amtrak it's still good for a year with . I also say that the empire tunnel be ventilated 100% to allow limited diesel operations if need be, also adding access shafts along the west side tunnel for disabled trains and for emergencies. One other idea i had before, was allowing MNRR passengers on runs and can get off at any hudson line stop and have to exit at the last stop. I know this would be a fare enforcement issue, however if you limited the trains to 4-5 cars it would be very manageable. Increase service from 16-20 trains a day both ways to around double that. Offer incentives to travel from nyc to niagra falls such as hotel or car rental discounts if you show your ticket stub etc. - Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P32ACDM 714 Posted August 25, 2008 Share #6 Posted August 25, 2008 Actually, overhaul the Rohr Turboliner sets so HSR can go back to the Empire Corridor, or electrify the line and put AEM-7 or HHP-8 engines there or at least let the P32AC-DMs go at full speed. Also getting Acela cars on there would be impossible as they are linked into sets. I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metsfan Posted August 25, 2008 Share #7 Posted August 25, 2008 Actually, overhaul the Rohr Turboliner sets so HSR can go back to the Empire Corridor, or electrify the line and put AEM-7 or HHP-8 engines there or at least let the P32AC-DMs go at full speed. Also getting Acela cars on there would be impossible as they are linked into sets. I think. Well, they could make them sets or not, and leave them as sets or not in the yard. As for the turboliners, how fast can they go? I think a really smart choice would be electrify to albany & leave the rest as an option to future expansion for electrification & use stuff not dependent on electrification on that leg only. You could have tons of service between nyc & albany, and increase service west as demand dictates. Have maybe every other train be one seat ride even if you have to change locos to niagara falls & the rest have passengers switch trains at albany. Selected trains could also be sent north to montreal instead of it being a one train each way per day deal. - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P32ACDM 714 Posted August 25, 2008 Share #8 Posted August 25, 2008 Rohr Turboliners can go up to 125-135 MPH. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metsfan Posted August 25, 2008 Share #9 Posted August 25, 2008 Rohr Turboliners can go up to 125-135 MPH. Heck, if they just got up to 100 mph that would be great! - Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred G Posted August 25, 2008 Share #10 Posted August 25, 2008 We need to get out of these shared rights-of-way and run our fast train in its own dedicated ROW. Keeping it off freight tracks is an absolute must, and even keeping it out of MN trackage is wise IMO. After that, electrify, catenary, blah blah blah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metsfan Posted August 25, 2008 Share #11 Posted August 25, 2008 We need to get out of these shared rights-of-way and run our fast train in its own dedicated ROW. Keeping it off freight tracks is an absolute must, and even keeping it out of MN trackage is wise IMO. After that, electrify, catenary, blah blah blah. The french did this, so did the japanese. Their high speed systems are not only prospering, but are really impresive! Keeping high speed & freight apart is essential. - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Posted August 25, 2008 Author Share #12 Posted August 25, 2008 The french did this, so did the japanese. Their high speed systems are not only prospering, but are really impresive! Keeping high speed & freight apart is essential. - How would their high speed rail demand compare to what it would be on the Empire Corridor High Speed? How big is the demand out there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pablo M 201 Posted August 26, 2008 Share #13 Posted August 26, 2008 How would their high speed rail demand compare to what it would be on the Empire Corridor High Speed? How big is the demand out there? The demand is much more out there, especially in Japan. Empire service between NYP and Albany is only hourly to bi-hourly at the moment, and then you have the other scheduled trains that go between NYP and Albany which are at times just once a day, or a few. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fred G Posted August 26, 2008 Share #14 Posted August 26, 2008 I'm trying to picture the demand between Buffalo and Albany. Maybe thinking about it in smaller blocks like Buffalo to Rochester, for instance or Albany to Utica would make more sense in terms of where the demand would be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metsfan Posted August 26, 2008 Share #15 Posted August 26, 2008 How would their high speed rail demand compare to what it would be on the Empire Corridor High Speed? How big is the demand out there? The french and japanese have decades of incumbent ridership that has grown used to the idea of train vs plane or car or even bus. I think the ridership density in middle to rural france would be accurate to today's empire line. A high speed route would need to be vastly advertised & kick off without a hitch, and be properly executed. Once that is done the ridership would be there. People would live in one part of the state and work in nyc etc. If you put capacity there, and tell people the capacity is there, and make it cozy high tech and reliable it would be a "build it & they will come" scenario. Look at acela for an example. I have never seen a near empty acela train EVER. The customers are out there, they just need to make the system appear for them to use. Use of turboliners, alp-45, alp-46a, and modern middle of the road rolling stock is one part of the puzzle. The other parts are infrastructure, pricing, marketing, clarity of incentive (really at the end of the day why should i use this system to get places), and a real good set of people heading it all up making the right choices. If they do it soon & do it right, the starting whistle that acela failed to sound will be heard across north america to create a firstly regional then national high speed and reasonably priced rail system. It would help reduce fuel costs & move us away from oil dependancy. - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P32ACDM 714 Posted August 26, 2008 Share #16 Posted August 26, 2008 Remember the Rohr Turboliner is Diesel, no electrification needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metsfan Posted August 26, 2008 Share #17 Posted August 26, 2008 Remember the Rohr Turboliner is Diesel, no electrification needed. Yes, but the issue is electrification = no need for fuel. - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P32ACDM 714 Posted August 26, 2008 Share #18 Posted August 26, 2008 Well it can be a short term solution, also, where is the electricity coming from? Also the RTL III is already in Acela Paint XD (theres about 5 Rohr Turboliner III sets I think). Funny though, you think they are Acelas then notice those huge ass windows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metsfan Posted August 26, 2008 Share #19 Posted August 26, 2008 Well it can be a short term solution, also, where is the electricity coming from? Also the RTL III is already in Acela Paint XD (theres about 5 Rohr Turboliner III sets I think). Funny though, you think they are Acelas then notice those huge ass windows. And the bump at the front. B) Yes, turboliners would be an intermediary step, and would work well, but the real solution would be electrification to toronto, AND montreal. Not only is there space for a secondary ROW in most cases to niagara falls, but you could do it on elevated lines where there isn't enough space, make enough clearance for stack trains, or you could simply reroute freight ROW, which i think would be the best option. The only issue here is local folks & how they might feel bout having freight lines laid down. Perhaps incentives again, tax breaks or something compensatory. One option is obviously to build some more stations so people don't have to drive as far. I'm assuming at this point you realize this would be a major project that would need federal state and local agreement & funding to happen. I believe if the project is sold right, it could and would be done. In towns near the station stops you could put light rail people movers so they also don't have to drive as far. It could be called the empire connect system. Each town that has empire connect could have its LRV's named after a famous street or person in that town or such. Empire connect could work with the empire card... - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P32ACDM 714 Posted August 26, 2008 Share #20 Posted August 26, 2008 Toronto and Montreal, you need VIA Rail Canada to do that, thats VIA territory. Also your thinking of the Turbotrain with the huge bump, the Turboliner is just a flat slanted nose like the HHP-8 or Acela. unless you are talking about the top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metsfan Posted August 26, 2008 Share #21 Posted August 26, 2008 Ah yes. Those would work! - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metsfan Posted November 10, 2008 Share #22 Posted November 10, 2008 Is there any updates on the alp-45? - A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forest Glen Posted November 10, 2008 Share #23 Posted November 10, 2008 If this service was extended to Toronto then this could work. If the NY-Toronto trip could be done in under 6 hours then it could compete with the airlines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metsfan Posted November 10, 2008 Share #24 Posted November 10, 2008 I recently discovered that PRR had plans to electrify from philadelphia to pittsburgh. Maybe shake the dust off of that while we improve the tracks and stations. Turboliners fitted with 3rd rail for operation into GCT for the empire corridor and montreal route, then alp-45. as things progress... - A Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nexis4Jersey Posted November 16, 2009 Share #25 Posted November 16, 2009 Any Updates on this? Or any High Speed Rail in the US? It seems the suddenly went dead , no new Info in Months , i do know that a SNCF is building a part of the HSR Network in the Midwest. But what about the NE and the Empire & Keystone corridors? I think Amtrak needs get its act to gather , this is ridiculous , its the 21st Century not the 19th Century......ugh.......A High Speed Train form NYC to Buffalo via the I-90 corridor would be sweet 130-180mph, reduce congestion and pollution. Although i think , Buffalo , Rochester , Syracuse need Light Rail and Better Transit before any of this starts. As For the Keystone corridor , theres nothing standing in the way of Amtrak except money....I Seed the keystone Corridor getting done be 2015. And Empire Corridor by 2020-25? ~Corey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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