Mtatransit Posted January 10, 2014 Share #51 Posted January 10, 2014 I know that Veolia is doing better over here, although NICE isn t that bad. But you re now comparing apples to oranges because bus operation is not the same as train operation so who knows how they might do train operation on the Atlantic Branch. It s not like is doing a good job with it now and having seen how well they upped ridership over here... cough cough 2008 chattsworth train collision but I do agree when veolia take over railroad ridership increases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LIRR 154 Posted January 10, 2014 Share #52 Posted January 10, 2014 cough cough 2008 chattsworth train collision but I do agree when veolia take over railroad ridership increases.Just a question. . What would Veolia do differently then the LIRR that would make ridership increase? I'm curious. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lirr42 Posted January 10, 2014 Share #53 Posted January 10, 2014 A train would not need to have a low dwell time to maintain a short headway. The trains could take the usual ~5-10 minutes to prepare. A train would have to be ready to depart every 7.5 minutes which is doable with 5 platforms at Atlantic and an Island at Jamaica is doable provided the entry crossovers are placed properly and not speed restricted. This is why I estimated 6 sets would be needed, there would be two trains on the main and one in the platform for both directions. I don't see it selling tickets however. Atlantic Terminal can handle as many as 18 trains per hour under ideal conditions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vistausss Posted January 10, 2014 Share #54 Posted January 10, 2014 Just a question. . What would Veolia do differently then the LIRR that would make ridership increase? I'm curious. . Not sure, but looking at what they did here I can conclude that they improved upon the previous company (Dutch Railways) by: -Slightly lower fares -Slightly higher frequencies -Better information and communication to commuters (-faster, more modern trains but that would probably be moot as they will most likely use LIRR M7's on the Atlantic) -Actually caring about what and who they serve instead of treating the branches like bastard stepchilds, thus creating a fully fletched network people can actually rely on -Lightning fast acting when there's a disruption by instantly having substitute buses available to rock-and-roll And a few other things but I'm just posting this from the top of my head. That's what made ridership increase by 200% over the last 5 years. Of course, there's always room for improvement such as slightly longer trains because some peak runs are crush loaded. But again: *don't* get me wrong. I'm not at all suggesting Veolia *needs* to run the Atlantic branch. I'm just saying they would do a good job *IF* (again: *IF*) the wants to get rid of the Atlantic branch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LIRR 154 Posted January 10, 2014 Share #55 Posted January 10, 2014 Not sure, but looking at what they did here I can conclude that they improved upon the previous company (Dutch Railways) by: -Slightly lower fares -Slightly higher frequencies -Better information and communication to commuters (-faster, more modern trains but that would probably be moot as they will most likely use LIRR M7's on the Atlantic) -Actually caring about what and who they serve instead of treating the branches like bastard stepchilds, thus creating a fully fletched network people can actually rely on -Lightning fast acting when there's a disruption by instantly having substitute buses available to rock-and-roll And a few other things but I'm just posting this from the top of my head. That's what made ridership increase by 200% over the last 5 years. Of course, there's always room for improvement such as slightly longer trains because some peak runs are crush loaded. But again: *don't* get me wrong. I'm not at all suggesting Veolia *needs* to run the Atlantic branch. I'm just saying they would do a good job *IF* (again: *IF*) the wants to get rid of the Atlantic branch. I was expecting some mind blowing changes that would increase ridership on a small branch but I just don't see it in what you listed. The plan is to have a scoot service on a separate 10 track platform basically running itself. Just the list that you stated I still see the regular Atlantic Branch crowd with added Barclays. But that's a big if as you say and we are just going to have to wait. There is a fight going on about this issue at the tables as we speak though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vistausss Posted January 10, 2014 Share #56 Posted January 10, 2014 It's very subjective. Just because it worked here isn't to say it works over there. Hell, even closer to NYC that might be the case. Just because LA has a nice (at least in theory) BRT network doesn't mean it'll work in NYC. Veolia is no different. I'm confident that ridership will increase with Veolia but that doesn't mean it's because of the same reasons. I just stated what I noticed here from the top of my head, I'm not involved with Veolia so who knows what they've positively changed unnoticed. LIRR does a good job for the most part and I'm sure they'll be able to transform the Atlantic branch themselves into something great. But if...... -- Sent from my TouchPad using Communities Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jsunflyguy Posted January 11, 2014 Share #57 Posted January 11, 2014 Atlantic Terminal can handle as many as 18 trains per hour under ideal conditions. 18 is pretty good, I was more concerned with the Jamaica platforms since that end is the least flexible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trainmaster5 Posted January 11, 2014 Share #58 Posted January 11, 2014 It just seems to me that with the relocation of many NYC municipal and many financial institutions' back office operations to Brooklyn from lower Manhattan the Atlantic Terminal would be quite a feather in the cap. Forget the Barclay's Center location for a minute. The Metrotech complex of offices is right there within walking distance or a 1 stop subway or bus ride at most from Atlantic Terminal. The terminal may never rival Pennsylvania Station as a tourist destination but it is a gateway to a commercial and entertainment center on it's own. Plus if one rides the right train from the east it's a quicker no-transfer(at Jamaica) trip to lower Manhattan compared to a ride to midtown's Penn Station or GCT and a transfer to the Lexington , to lower Manhattan.. Something to think about. Carry on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobtehpanda Posted January 11, 2014 Share #59 Posted January 11, 2014 It just seems to me that with the relocation of many NYC municipal and many financial institutions' back office operations to Brooklyn from lower Manhattan the Atlantic Terminal would be quite a feather in the cap. Forget the Barclay's Center location for a minute. The Metrotech complex of offices is right there within walking distance or a 1 stop subway or bus ride at most from Atlantic Terminal. The terminal may never rival Pennsylvania Station as a tourist destination but it is a gateway to a commercial and entertainment center on it's own. Plus if one rides the right train from the east it's a quicker no-transfer(at Jamaica) trip to lower Manhattan compared to a ride to midtown's Penn Station or GCT and a transfer to the Lexington , to lower Manhattan.. Something to think about. Carry on. While this is certainly true, these are the headline numbers that MTA is using to justify severing Atlantic and operating it separately. 7.5 min headways on the Atlantic Branch 40% increase in capacity through Jamaica Say what you will, but if this works out, there will be increased service for everyone. Some people might have to climb up and down to do a transfer, but it'll still be a net improvement. If LIRR had not decided to build out a new Grand Central deep into New York bedrock, and instead built a SEPTA style through tunnel from Grand Central to Atlantic, then we would be seeing many different numbers (and it might be cheaper, too, since most of the cost of East Side Access is the station itself and not the tunneling) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vistausss Posted January 11, 2014 Share #60 Posted January 11, 2014 Yeah, climbing up and down the stairs is not really a problem for most commuters. As long they don't have to go down to street level because quite a lot of LIRR commuters don't like Jamaica's neigbourhood (which I still don't see as a big problem, around Jamaica LIRR and 165th it seems okay to me). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobtehpanda Posted January 11, 2014 Share #61 Posted January 11, 2014 Yeah, climbing up and down the stairs is not really a problem for most commuters. As long they don't have to go down to street level because quite a lot of LIRR commuters don't like Jamaica's neigbourhood (which I still don't see as a big problem, around Jamaica LIRR and 165th it seems okay to me). As someone who lives in that neighborhood, that station is a particular magnet for aggressive homeless people. The LIRR bathrooms were, in fact, closed due to the homeless constantly vandalizing the bathroom. I wish they made Jamaica Station less of a pain in the ass to use for people actually coming from Jamaica and the subway. Why the mezzanine is located above, instead of below the platforms is beyond me (who wants to go up just to go back down, particularly with a mezzanine that's four stories above the ground?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vistausss Posted January 12, 2014 Share #62 Posted January 12, 2014 The station doesn't matter in this case, the LIRR people I heard (or, read, since this is the internet) were not complaining about Jamaica station but Jamaica neighbourhood around the station and the area around 165th (where and NICE have their terminal). But from everything I can see it's not that bad at all. If I had to walk there (at night), I'd certainly do. Jamaica station is a beautiful station IMHO but yeah, it could be made a little more convenient to use for non-LIRR people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobtehpanda Posted January 12, 2014 Share #63 Posted January 12, 2014 The station doesn't matter in this case, the LIRR people I heard (or, read, since this is the internet) were not complaining about Jamaica station but Jamaica neighbourhood around the station and the area around 165th (where and NICE have their terminal). But from everything I can see it's not that bad at all. If I had to walk there (at night), I'd certainly do. Jamaica station is a beautiful station IMHO but yeah, it could be made a little more convenient to use for non-LIRR people. I think you misunderstood the way I phrased it. Yes, the station is a magnet for homeless people, but the LIRR made it worse by laying out the station in a way that discourages actual people from Jamaica using it. Subtle design choices such as making the only access from the platform to the street long, dimly lit stairwells that lead into the backs of other stairwells make people from Jamaica using the facility feel like second class passengers. The station is nice if you're transferring from subway to AirTrain, or AirTrain to LIRR, or LIRR to LIRR. For people who want to do subway to LIRR or bus/walk to LIRR, it is a total pain in the ass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qjtransitmaster Posted January 12, 2014 Share #64 Posted January 12, 2014 I think you misunderstood the way I phrased it. Yes, the station is a magnet for homeless people, but the LIRR made it worse by laying out the station in a way that discourages actual people from Jamaica using it. Subtle design choices such as making the only access from the platform to the street long, dimly lit stairwells that lead into the backs of other stairwells make people from Jamaica using the facility feel like second class passengers. The station is nice if you're transferring from subway to AirTrain, or AirTrain to LIRR, or LIRR to LIRR. For people who want to do subway to LIRR or bus/walk to LIRR, it is a total pain in the ass. bus to LIRR yes subway to LIRR is debatable as the elevators can be used but you have some point. It's very subjective. Just because it worked here isn't to say it works over there. Hell, even closer to NYC that might be the case. Just because LA has a nice (at least in theory) BRT network doesn't mean it'll work in NYC. Veolia is no different. I'm confident that ridership will increase with Veolia but that doesn't mean it's because of the same reasons. I just stated what I noticed here from the top of my head, I'm not involved with Veolia so who knows what they've positively changed unnoticed. LIRR does a good job for the most part and I'm sure they'll be able to transform the Atlantic branch themselves into something great. But if...... -- Sent from my TouchPad using Communities my bad. True BRT in NYC won't work well for the most part only a few places in NYC exist where BRT can work and even upgrade ridership on some express lines. While this is certainly true, these are the headline numbers that MTA is using to justify severing Atlantic and operating it separately. 7.5 min headways on the Atlantic Branch 40% increase in capacity through Jamaica Say what you will, but if this works out, there will be increased service for everyone. Some people might have to climb up and down to do a transfer, but it'll still be a net improvement. If LIRR had not decided to build out a new Grand Central deep into New York bedrock, and instead built a SEPTA style through tunnel from Grand Central to Atlantic, then we would be seeing many different numbers (and it might be cheaper, too, since most of the cost of East Side Access is the station itself and not the tunneling) Ok sorry for the vote mistake. Good idea though. However under which ave would such a tunnel be built? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trainmaster5 Posted January 13, 2014 Share #65 Posted January 13, 2014 I have a question about the LIRR and the Atlantic Branch's operation. Maybe a knowledgeable poster or railroad employee can help me out. I've read on other forums that the charter for the Long Island Rail Road company states that the LIRR must run trains to Greenport and to Brooklyn or the charter is invalid. That's supposedly the reason for the daily Greenport trains. I don't know how true this is but if there is any semblance of fact in this idea how can the Long Island Rail Road company give up, or abandon, it's Brooklyn operations? BTW the reason I bolded the LIRR name is because that is the name of the company, ( Rail Road) , in two words. IIRC the original charter specifies service from Brooklyn and from Greenport. Even when the Pennsylvania RR ran the LIRR they didn't deviate from this base operation, even when it was losing money. The story is that if the service was abandoned the original property owners who had land taken for the ROW would get their property back in some fashion. I don't know the validity of all that but something somewhere must state the facts of the matter or the story wouldn't exist.. Help me out folks. Someone must know about the history and the charter and it's relevance to the topic at hand. Carry on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vistausss Posted January 13, 2014 Share #66 Posted January 13, 2014 I dunno about Brooklyn service but I do have read a thing or two about the Greenport charter. It's true that when they wanted to axe Greenport service, officials in the area reminded LIRR about the charter and thus they haven't been able to axe it yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LIRR 154 Posted January 13, 2014 Share #67 Posted January 13, 2014 I dunno about Brooklyn service but I do have read a thing or two about the Greenport charter. It's true that when they wanted to axe Greenport service, officials in the area reminded LIRR about the charter and thus they haven't been able to axe it yet. Officials and unions fought for Greenport . And guess what happened ridership rose during the summer months so much that the LIRR heads back tracked and extended the service another month into September. When I tell you they don't know what they are doing I mean it. What was laughable was that so called press conference celebration announcing the extending service. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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