Vistausss Posted January 6, 2014 Share #26 Posted January 6, 2014 I doubt this shuttle would run at 8 minute headway's if they use LIRR equipment, they would have to do brake tests every time the train left the terminal which would cause dwell time... would seem like a mess. If they do make the headway that low might as well add turnstiles and put Subway cars along the route. At least with subway cars a train could into the terminal, another crew can just get on and pull out, RR cars gotta do that brake test which takes time. No, subway cars ain t gonna be used ever on the branch. bobtehpanda has made that very clear Exactly. If they started advertising a new shuttle as a fast, comfortable way to Brooklyn I think it could really take off. Right now I don't think people realize it's an option. For example, when I went to the MTA website the first time I needed to go to Brooklyn from Queens, I used the trip planner, checked off all transportation options, and none of the routesit gave me included taking the LIRR, even though using the LIRR cut out a good 25 minutes from the commute. I happened to know about LIRR trains that go to Brooklyn, but there is no advertising at all. Maybe it was different back then, but I just used the Trip Planner (to see for myself) and the first result was an LIRR train to Atlantic Terminal... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobtehpanda Posted January 6, 2014 Share #27 Posted January 6, 2014 I doubt this shuttle would run at 8 minute headway's if they use LIRR equipment, they would have to do brake tests every time the train left the terminal which would cause dwell time... would seem like a mess. If they do make the headway that low might as well add turnstiles and put Subway cars along the route. At least with subway cars a train could into the terminal, another crew can just get on and pull out, RR cars gotta do that brake test which takes time. http://www.newsday.com/long-island/coming-soon-on-lirr-transfer-at-mineola-1.5738716 http://www.timesledger.com/stories/2013/22/queenstransit_qt_2013_05_31_q2.html Both cite the MTA saying 7.5 minutes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QM1to6Ave Posted January 6, 2014 Author Share #28 Posted January 6, 2014 Maybe it was different back then, but I just used the Trip Planner (to see for myself) and the first result was an LIRR train to Atlantic Terminal... Good! I hope more people use that option Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vistausss Posted January 6, 2014 Share #29 Posted January 6, 2014 Exactly bob, and even more coverage on lirr42's blog: http://www.thelirrtoday.com/2014/01/jamaica-capacity-improvement-project.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYSubwayBuff Posted January 6, 2014 Share #30 Posted January 6, 2014 FromWhat branch, s do y'all propose running rush hour trains to Atlantic when this goes through Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trainfan22 Posted January 6, 2014 Share #31 Posted January 6, 2014 http://www.newsday.com/long-island/coming-soon-on-lirr-transfer-at-mineola-1.5738716 http://www.timesledger.com/stories/2013/22/queenstransit_qt_2013_05_31_q2.html Both cite the MTA saying 7.5 minutes. Well, its going to be interesting to see how they will handle the brake test ordeal... I never heard of a railroad under the FRA having such short headways like a subway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vistausss Posted January 6, 2014 Share #32 Posted January 6, 2014 Well, its going to be interesting to see how they will handle the brake test ordeal... I never heard of a railroad under the FRA having such short headways like a subway. I have and it s called SEPTA Norristown High-Speed Line b/w 7 AM and 8 AM. It s not consistent 7.5 minutes, but there are some trains b/w 7 and 8 AM that leave 5-10 minutes after the previous one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trainfan22 Posted January 6, 2014 Share #33 Posted January 6, 2014 I have and it s called SEPTA Norristown High-Speed Line b/w 7 AM and 8 AM. It s not consistent 7.5 minutes, but there are some trains b/w 7 and 8 AM that leave 5-10 minutes after the previous one. Do they do brake tests on those cars? The Riverline shares its tracks with Freight and when I ridden those cars the operator never did the brake test. Riverline/PATH/SIR don't do the brake tests every trip despite the fact that there systems have connections to the outside world. Every time I ridden a LIRR train out of Atlantic Terminal they always did the brake test. A commuter railroad like LIRR running a service with subway like headways would be interesting, because it takes much longer to prepare a Railroad train for a trip versus a Subway train. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobtehpanda Posted January 7, 2014 Share #34 Posted January 7, 2014 Well, its going to be interesting to see how they will handle the brake test ordeal... I never heard of a railroad under the FRA having such short headways like a subway. They also don't pull in and out of Atlantic very fast, considering some of the platforms have ridiculous curves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vistausss Posted January 7, 2014 Share #35 Posted January 7, 2014 Do they do brake tests on those cars? The Riverline shares its tracks with Freight and when I ridden those cars the operator never did the brake test. Riverline/PATH/SIR don't do the brake tests every trip despite the fact that there systems have connections to the outside world. Every time I ridden a LIRR train out of Atlantic Terminal they always did the brake test. A commuter railroad like LIRR running a service with subway like headways would be interesting, because it takes much longer to prepare a Railroad train for a trip versus a Subway train. Brake tests? You said you didn t know any railroad company with such short headways. Thats why I brought up SEPTAs NHSL in the first place... (SIR is not fully under FRA btw, only SIRs freight operations but not their commuter operations) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marctalky1 Posted January 8, 2014 Share #36 Posted January 8, 2014 People who like me who use Atlantic Terminal specifically at off peak times are being screwed as it is right now. I use Atlantic terminal for every Nets game and the LIRR doesn't get it. You can't put two trains into one it doesn't work. The big 3 trains (Huntington, Rokonkoma and Babylon) at Jamaica get crush loaded after we board trains and a lot of times our tickets never get collected. Im ok with the Shuttle service with all times except during events at Barclays. On nights when MSG and Barclays both have events its hell going home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vistausss Posted January 8, 2014 Share #37 Posted January 8, 2014 People who like me who use Atlantic Terminal specifically at off peak times are being screwed as it is right now. I use Atlantic terminal for every Nets game and the LIRR doesn't get it. You can't put two trains into one it doesn't work. The big 3 trains (Huntington, Rokonkoma and Babylon) at Jamaica get crush loaded after we board trains and a lot of times our tickets never get collected. Im ok with the Shuttle service with all times except during events at Barclays. On nights when MSG and Barclays both have events its hell going home. Given the fact that ridership has gone up since the opening of Barclays, Im confident that they will probably have a different arrangement on game days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lirr42 Posted January 8, 2014 Share #38 Posted January 8, 2014 Given the fact that ridership has gone up since the opening of Barclays, Im confident that they will probably have a different arrangement on game days. But not if they radically alter the track alignment in such a way that would make through service impossible or very difficult. The plan now is to clean JAY interlocking up so that the trains coming off station tracks 0-9 will have a clear shot through to the Mainline and there won't be any messy junctions with the Atlantic Branch. That could complicate things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qjtransitmaster Posted January 9, 2014 Share #39 Posted January 9, 2014 MTA has publicly said that scoot trains will be running every 7.5 minutes. Now, that's about the only thing we know about the new service. What kind of cars, what kind of fares, even the fare media used and staffing is all completely shrouded in mystery at this point. There's no way that Atlantic will require that kind of frequency at the current one-way fare level, so we'll see what happens. with headways like that I won't miss the direct service to LI. Sounds like a good compromise to me. However if that scoot made eastern queens stops upto floral park with LIRR trains going express and lower fares I can see the pressure coming off buses in eastern queens and indirectly the QBL and the buses would need restructuring too. People don't read what they write. You would be surprised how much money the MTA lose with fare beaters and unlimited cheaters at the turnstiles. you would be surprised the money they lose with uncollected tickets. Hardware differences make this just an expensive hassle, when the LIRR to Atlantic right now can't fill half a train at the headways it's running off-peak. simple they can't fill those trains due to the fares being a deterrent take that away and the ridership will skyrocket. The thing is, at current fares off peak, the LIRR's Atlantic trains can't even fill two cars. Something has to change for the MTA to think that it can run 8 trains an hour on that train line without burning a giant hole in its pocket. well duh nobody wants to pay that. If fares were lowered to cross with subway and bus fare those trains will get slammed at the expense of well 2 lines sort of. I have and it s called SEPTA Norristown High-Speed Line b/w 7 AM and 8 AM. It s not consistent 7.5 minutes, but there are some trains b/w 7 and 8 AM that leave 5-10 minutes after the previous one. Sometimes with 3 min headways the SEPTA NHSL is actually a light subway operation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trainmaster5 Posted January 9, 2014 Share #40 Posted January 9, 2014 Maybe I'm looking at the big picture all wrong so someone help me out here. The proposes LIRR Atlantic Branch scoot service when ESA service begins. Exactly what hours of the day is this scoot service supposed to operate? Non-rush hours (off peak) ? Late nights and weekends? The reason I'm asking this is because right now there is peak service to Huntington, Ronkonkoma, and Babylon to/from Atlantic Terminal IIRC. What happens to those trains in the scoot scenario? The other, bigger, question I have is with the , the taxpayers, and the ridership. The spent big bucks to rebuild the station at Flatbush, Atlantic Avenue, and Hanson Place. Am I correct? Station fully renovated with commercial establishments galore, right? A new name," Atlantic Terminal". Now someone point me to the dumb son of a sea cook who decided to spend all of this money on a terminal that's now destined to become a subway station FWIW. If this scoot thing turns out to be a 24/7 thing that's what the "new and improved" Atlantic Terminal will become. I've said this before but I must repeat it. The is a real estate operation posing as a transit agency. Like Grand Central Station, the Atlantic Terminal will have dining and commercial establishments and, btw, we'll run "some" train service from here. The difference is the Rockaway Park makes more stops but it costs less than this proposed scoot service. In some ways this whole thing looks like it wasn't well thought out at all. If I put on my tinfoil hat and pull it real tight I can see the Dolans and MSG benefiting from this. Through service to Penn Station on game nights vs transfer scoots to the the Barclay's Center. Direct service to the Garden for the circus vs a transfer. A concert at MSG or Radio City vs a transfer to Barclay's. Maybe I'm missing something here but IMO you don't spend millions on a rebuild and then relegate the finished product to second hand status. Just my opinion though. Carry on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LIRR 154 Posted January 9, 2014 Share #41 Posted January 9, 2014 I couldn't agree with you more Trainmaster5. But this just shows you the knuckle heads we have at top making these decisions. They spent all that money on Flatbush and now they have this idea of having a private company run it. What changed? ? This idea of having non LIRR crews to run it and sell it to a bidder smells fishy and stinks highly of corruption. Where do people think this money will go if this plan goes there way. Taxpayers who riders ? NO , better service lol NO, the employees yeah ok NO. Right in their pockets like every mysterious surplus they find. Surplus is another word for cook books or money they can't hide. Its getting scary in the MTA. They trying to force this corporate bs down our throats with the amount of managers, supervisors and directors we have to the ratio of workers.Eventually all unions under the MTA umbrella is going to have come together and stand firm probably as soon as this year the way contract talks are going. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jsunflyguy Posted January 9, 2014 Share #42 Posted January 9, 2014 A train would not need to have a low dwell time to maintain a short headway. The trains could take the usual ~5-10 minutes to prepare. A train would have to be ready to depart every 7.5 minutes which is doable with 5 platforms at Atlantic and an Island at Jamaica is doable provided the entry crossovers are placed properly and not speed restricted. This is why I estimated 6 sets would be needed, there would be two trains on the main and one in the platform for both directions. I don't see it selling tickets however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vistausss Posted January 9, 2014 Share #43 Posted January 9, 2014 I couldn't agree with you more Trainmaster5. But this just shows you the knuckle heads we have at top making these decisions. They spent all that money on Flatbush and now they have this idea of having a private company run it. What changed? ? This idea of having non LIRR crews to run it and sell it to a bidder smells fishy and stinks highly of corruption. Where do people think this money will go if this plan goes there way. Taxpayers who riders ? NO , better service lol NO, the employees yeah ok NO. Right in their pockets like every mysterious surplus they find. Surplus is another word for cook books or money they can't hide. Its getting scary in the MTA. They trying to force this corporate bs down our throats with the amount of managers, supervisors and directors we have to the ratio of workers.Eventually all unions under the MTA umbrella is going to have come together and stand firm probably as soon as this year the way contract talks are going. Veolia could run the Atlantic branch. I know theres going to be some heavy opposition but here Veolia actually took over a few doomed railroad branches and ridership has gone up by 200% over the last 5 years (since they took over) and transit personell is not complaining either. So it may help. (note: I m not suggesting anything, just thinking outside the box *if* wants to explore giving away the Atlantic branch) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LIRR 154 Posted January 9, 2014 Share #44 Posted January 9, 2014 Veolia could run the Atlantic branch. I know theres going to be some heavy opposition but here Veolia actually took over a few doomed railroad branches and ridership has gone up by 200% over the last 5 years (since they took over) and transit personell is not complaining either. So it may help. (note: I m not suggesting anything, just thinking outside the box *if* wants to explore giving away the Atlantic branch) I know some LI Bus employees and to put it nicely veolia is a disaster. I don't know about the over in the Netherlands, but over here it won't be the right idea. Its the principle of the RR that pisses me off. The piss of money like ni tomorrow just to under use their investments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QM1to6Ave Posted January 9, 2014 Author Share #45 Posted January 9, 2014 Assuming this whole plan actually comes to fruition, If the MTA advertise the service as a fast, relatively affordable way to get between Brooklyn and Queens, rather than just being a good way to get to the Barklay's Center, I think there will be a lot of business people using this on a daily basis, like a small Grand Central, which will draw them to all of those commercial businesses in the terminal. While it may become a glorified subway station, the way it is now from what I've seen, the commercial businesses are underutilized anyway, so I'd like to think this will help. Of course, Trainmaster and LIRR 154, you guys are MTA employees and have a better sense of how this stuff usually turns out, but I like to be optimistic Assuming this whole plan actually comes to fruition, If the MTA advertise the service as a fast, relatively affordable way to get between Brooklyn and Queens, rather than just being a good way to get to the Barklay's Center, I think there will be a lot of business people using this on a daily basis, like a small Grand Central, which will draw them to all of those commercial businesses in the terminal. There is a lot of demand for fast transportation between Brooklyn and Queens, especially downtown brooklyn. While it may become a glorified subway station, the way it is now from what I've seen, the commercial businesses are underutilized anyway, so I'd like to think this will help. Of course, Trainmaster and LIRR 154, you guys are MTA employees and have a better sense of how this stuff usually turns out, but I like to be optimistic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LIRR 154 Posted January 9, 2014 Share #46 Posted January 9, 2014 Assuming this whole plan actually comes to fruition, If the MTA advertise the service as a fast, relatively affordable way to get between Brooklyn and Queens, rather than just being a good way to get to the Barklay's Center, I think there will be a lot of business people using this on a daily basis, like a small Grand Central, which will draw them to all of those commercial businesses in the terminal. While it may become a glorified subway station, the way it is now from what I've seen, the commercial businesses are underutilized anyway, so I'd like to think this will help. Of course, Trainmaster and LIRR 154, you guys are MTA employees and have a better sense of how this stuff usually turns out, but I like to be optimistic The thing is Brooklyn is just beginning to become a hot location. Not only the Barclays but new buildings of residential, commercial and retail is coming. Its becoming more and more attractive. The LIRR will be sorry in the future to let that go.Manhattan isn't only going to be the go to destination in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QM1to6Ave Posted January 9, 2014 Author Share #47 Posted January 9, 2014 The thing is Brooklyn is just beginning to become a hot location. Not only the Barclays but new buildings of residential, commercial and retail is coming. Its becoming more and more attractive. The LIRR will be sorry in the future to let that go.Manhattan isn't the only going to be the go to destination in the future. definitely agree with that. It'd be nice to see the MTA get ahead of a trend rather than respond to demographic shifts long after they happen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vistausss Posted January 9, 2014 Share #48 Posted January 9, 2014 I know some LI Bus employees and to put it nicely veolia is a disaster. I don't know about the over in the Netherlands, but over here it won't be the right idea. Its the principle of the RR that pisses me off. The piss of money like ni tomorrow just to under use their investments. I know that Veolia is doing better over here, although NICE isn t that bad. But you re now comparing apples to oranges because bus operation is not the same as train operation so who knows how they might do train operation on the Atlantic Branch. It s not like is doing a good job with it now and having seen how well they upped ridership over here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qjtransitmaster Posted January 10, 2014 Share #49 Posted January 10, 2014 Maybe I'm looking at the big picture all wrong so someone help me out here. The proposes LIRR Atlantic Branch scoot service when ESA service begins. Exactly what hours of the day is this scoot service supposed to operate? Non-rush hours (off peak) ? Late nights and weekends? The reason I'm asking this is because right now there is peak service to Huntington, Ronkonkoma, and Babylon to/from Atlantic Terminal IIRC. What happens to those trains in the scoot scenario? The other, bigger, question I have is with the , the taxpayers, and the ridership. The spent big bucks to rebuild the station at Flatbush, Atlantic Avenue, and Hanson Place. Am I correct? Station fully renovated with commercial establishments galore, right? A new name," Atlantic Terminal". Now someone point me to the dumb son of a sea cook who decided to spend all of this money on a terminal that's now destined to become a subway station FWIW. If this scoot thing turns out to be a 24/7 thing that's what the "new and improved" Atlantic Terminal will become. I've said this before but I must repeat it. The is a real estate operation posing as a transit agency. Like Grand Central Station, the Atlantic Terminal will have dining and commercial establishments and, btw, we'll run "some" train service from here. The difference is the Rockaway Park makes more stops but it costs less than this proposed scoot service. In some ways this whole thing looks like it wasn't well thought out at all. If I put on my tinfoil hat and pull it real tight I can see the Dolans and MSG benefiting from this. Through service to Penn Station on game nights vs transfer scoots to the the Barclay's Center. Direct service to the Garden for the circus vs a transfer. A concert at MSG or Radio City vs a transfer to Barclay's. Maybe I'm missing something here but IMO you don't spend millions on a rebuild and then relegate the finished product to second hand status. Just my opinion though. Carry on. Increased service would make up for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RtrainBlues Posted January 10, 2014 Share #50 Posted January 10, 2014 The high fares are a huge deterrent to ridership. There are alternatives (G to Court Sq/then E to Jamaica via Union Tpke and F to 179th if needed, or A to Bwy Junction/then J to Jamaica) that only add about 10 to 15 minutes of travel time and that are already paid for with your Unlimited Metrocard. The only people I ever see get on at Nostrand Ave or East NY (off-peak) are women in nurse's uniforms or home health care uniforms. Everyone else either drives to Long Island or takes the subway/NICE bus if they don't have a car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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