Official Rapid Transit Trivia Thread

[IRT Bronx Express]

(;)/(D) operated on the Broadway line during the Manhattan Bridge rehab from 1986 to 1988.

 

operated on the 8th Ave line middays and evenings from 1985 to 1988. It was meant to be used for the skip stop with the .

 

operated on the 6th Avenue line from 1989 to 2001.

 

operated on the Nassau Street line prior to 2010.

 

<R> operated as a Chambers St special during the rush hours prior to 1987.

[Kacie Jane]

The answers were B, D, Q, M, and R, so IRT Bronx Express got it.

 

The K doesn't count since while it was proposed for a skip-stop service with the (not ), it never ran as such. Or you guys may have been referring to the old 1970's K/KK, which did at times run skip-stop on the Jamaica line, but that also doesn't count since I specified post-1985, or at least post-'79 with the new colors. (Note that had it existed today, it would have been colored orange for 6th Avenue like today's , not brown for Nassau Street.)

[Kacie Jane]

This question is inspired by something MikeGerald said in another thread, although I was actually already planning this for my next question anyway. (So if you can find the thread I'm talking about, it will give you part of the answer. )

 

By my count, there are five stations that have served as a terminal for trains -- in regular service -- headed both railroad north and railroad south, although not necessarily at the same time. Name them.

 

(Note: It's possible there are more than five; I know of a sixth one that would qualify, but only because of what was more of a long-term G.O. First person to name five gets the points.)

[MikeGerald]

Let's see:

 

Bowling Green - #5 train, and South Ferry Shuttle.

 

Euclid Avenue - C or CC local trains, Rockway Round-Robin or Lefferts Shuttles

 

East 180th Street - #5 some trains end there and head back to Manhattan, regular Dyre Avenue shuttle trains, now some #2 G.O' trains.

 

36th Street - the midnight hour B, N and R shuttles at various points in their history headed back to 95th Street or Coney Island, plus some M trains and some R or RR trains that started/ ended their runs there.

 

Brighton Beach - natural terminal of whatever Brighton Express train - D, one version of the Q-train, now the B-train --- and the NX rush hour express of long ago.

 

Chambers Street - J and M lines both terminate there, as well as the old Brown R-train terminated there.

 

Honorable Mentions:

 

Prospect Park - when the J or M shuttle and the Franklin Shuttle both serve the station

 

Times Square - not really the same tracks but when the #3 terminates there, as well as the #7 or Times Square Shuttle.

 

Queensboro Plaza for the #7 and N trains (and at times what ran there before) during G.O.'s when with N shuttling between this station and Astoria, and at times N-trains from Manhattan ending at Queensboro Plaza for some G.O's.

 

That's all for now.

Mike

[overclocked]

MikeGerald, would you please tell if 145th, concourse level, counts or not?

[Kacie Jane]

The five I had were Bowling Green, Euclid, Chambers, Brighton Beach, and one other one.

 

Re: 36th Street, I was not aware it had ever been used as a southern terminus. If it has, it certainly would qualify.

 

Re: E 180th Street, I suppose it depends on your definition of "regular service", and whether such short turns would qualify. To each their own.

 

Re: Times Square, I think that's railroad south for both the and , although it is railroad north for the . However, like you said, it's not quite what I'm looking for here.

 

Re: the other two Mike mentioned: regular service, not G.O.'s.

 

Re: 145th Street, I'm pretty sure has never been used as a southern terminus.

 

The sixth I had is 57th/7th Avenue, which of course is the northern terminal for the , and was for various other Broadway expresses in the past. It was also the part time southern terminal for the Yellow S during construction on the 63rd Street line in '98-'99. Personally I wouldn't count this regular service, but it appeared on a map, so your mileage may vary.

[overclocked]

Re: 145th Street, I'm pretty sure has never been used as a southern terminus.

Ok, I didn't get the qualifications completely. Comprehension fail.

[MikeGerald]

MikeGerald, would you please tell if 145th, concourse level, counts or not?

 

-------------

 

At first glance I don't think so. CC and or C trains, now B-trains ended there during the mid-days, and I believe that some CC or C trains ended there on weekends. While the Washington Heights, B or C trains continued on, as well as the A and D trains continued to their terminals.

 

I don't remember a G.O. with trains coming from the Concourse terminating at the 145th Street station and then returning to the Concourse, or trains from Washington Heights terminating there, and then returning to Washington Heights.

 

Just for argument's sake, trains coming from the Concourse can more easily be returned to the Concourse (like a shuttle train), than trains from the Washington Heights area being a shuttle. Because of the heavy needs for train service south of the 145th Street station, I doubt that there would be many shuttles to/from that station.

 

Mike

[Kacie Jane]

Not a problem, sometimes I'm particularly awful at wording my questions. What I'm looking for is a station that has served as a terminal for trains heading in both directions. (Brighton Beach was sort of a tricky one since it was still the southern terminal of the NX, but NX trains headed south out of Brighton Beach before turning north at Coney Island, while today's ( heads north out of Brighton Beach.) I know there's at least one more that Mike didn't mention.

 

That being said, the track layout of 145th Street (and many other stations) certainly allows this to happen (although not spectacularly cleanly, it would be easier if there were switches north of the station as well as south). A train from the Concourse line could relay south of 145th and turn back up toward the Bronx. So next round if service cuts if anyone has the bright idea to turn the Concourse line into a late night shuttle, the capability exists. (Just kidding, of course. This would be a very bad idea.)

[Kacie Jane]

At first glance I don't think so. CC and or C trains, now B-trains ended there during the mid-days, and I believe that some CC or C trains ended there on weekends. While the Washington Heights, B or C trains continued on, as well as the A and D trains continued to their terminals.

 

You beat me to answering his question. :-)

 

As far as I can tell, prior to 1988 (when the became part of the ), 145th was rarely if ever used as a terminal. The C/CC only ran during rush hours, so always continued onto Bedford Park, and the B and AA/K always continued to 168th. (The B typically only served CPW during rush hours, the AA/K most of the rest of the time, and the A typically only served 155th and 163rd during late nights.)

 

From 1988 until sometime in the early 90s that I can't pinpoint, the C terminated at 145th at all times except rush hours (Bedford Park) and when it didn't run (evenings after 9ish and late nights). Also in '88 or '89, the B started serving CPW more often (probably because the (Q6Av) was on 6th Avenue now and was helping out with Queensbridge duties), and the A ran local north of 145th evenings and weekends (and late nights of course). Then over the course of the 90s, the started serving 168th more often, first weekends, then evenings, and 145th became its terminal middays only. Up until of course 1998 when the terminals switched, and 145th is still a terminal middays only, except for the ( instead.

[MikeGerald]

Of course there is the Grand Central station on the #4, #5, #6, #7 and Shuttle, where S-shuttle trains return to Times Square, while #7 trains travel to Queens, and Metro-North trains return to the Bronx and beyond. Ha, ha, ha!

 

And of course Penn Station for LIRR trains, and NJ Transit trains. While some Amtrak trains pass through the station.

 

When the RR or R trains ended ran to/from Astoria, many of its trains terminated at 36th Street according to an old public train schedule, in order to send the trains to Coney Island for service or storage in the train yard. Now that most or all of the current R-trains are stored in the Jamaica Yard it does not happen as much. Some versions of the 4th Avenue daytime M-train had the trains ending at 36th Street, and some versions ending at 9th Avenue.

 

The 57th Street-7th Avenue station was one that I forget - good one.

 

On paper at least there was the 47th-50th Street station that had F-trains ending there midnight hours, and a shuttle train starting there traveling along the 63rd Street segment. In actuality, it was the same F-train they just changed the signs so as not to confuse people.

 

I also seem to remember something about the Broadway-Lafayette station, having to do with the S-shuttle to/from 63rd Street, and maybe the Grand Street station, but I have to look that up.

 

At the Utica Avenue station on the #3 and #4 lines there have been G.O's where riders had to change trains where #3 shuttles from the elevated section met #3 and/or #4 trains ending at Utica Avenue for the full trips to/from Manhattan.

 

At the Brooklyn Bridge station on the #4, #5 and #6 lines there have been G.O's where #4 trains from Brooklyn ended there, while at the same time #4 trains from the Bronx ended there, traveling around the loop.

 

During some G.O's Bedford Avenue on the L-train has been used as the switch point between Manhattan bound shuttles, and Brooklyn based L-trains. This is similar to Bedford-Nostrand Avenues being used for the same purpose for G.O's on the G-train.

 

Now if I have missed one - I hope that it is not an "easy" one.

Mike

[overclocked]

Thanks guys (not only) for your replies, this helpful info completely satisfied my question. :tup:

[Kacie Jane]

Of course there is the Grand Central station on the #4, #5, #6, #7 and Shuttle, where S-shuttle trains return to Times Square, while #7 trains travel to Queens, and Metro-North trains return to the Bronx and beyond. Ha, ha, ha!

 

And of course Penn Station for LIRR trains, and NJ Transit trains. While some Amtrak trains pass through the station.

 

Now you're just being silly.

 

I'll take your word for it on 36th Street. Now that you mention it, that does sound familiar.

 

Broadway-Lafayette is also a good one that I forgot. I may be wrong, but I think during the full Manny B closure of 1995, it turned trains in both directions at the same time, an orange S up to Queensbridge, and a grey S to Grand Street.

 

But you are missing one, and I think it's a fairly easy one...

 

9th Avenue. Was a south terminal for the (Mx), and the north terminal for the Culver Shuttle.

[MikeGerald]

9th Avenue. Was a south terminal for the M, and the north terminal for the Culver Shuttle

 

---------

 

That was the answer! Yes, now that I think about it, and the fact that you reminded me! Yes, it is easy! Although when one is looking a current subway map it does not stand out. At one point while trying to answer this question I did think about Ditmas Ave and the F-train.

 

This is a good exercise.

 

Mike

[Kacie Jane]

This is a good exercise.

 

Mike

 

Yes, I love this thread, hence my efforts to keep it alive.

 

You ask a question now!

[MikeGerald]

Take your basic 4-track 2-platform local / express station design, or a 4-track 3-platform local / express station design.

 

a) There are at least four separate and distinct ways to terminate the local route, while allowing the express route to continue onward. What are these four ways, and what actual working examples can you find.

 

There are at least four separate and distinct ways to terminate the express route, while allowing the local route to continue onward. What are these four ways, and what actual working examples can you find.

 

In each case, the terminating route (local or express) usually does not interfere with the operations of the through running route (local or express).

 

Have fun.

Mike

[Tokkemon]

I'm confused as to what you mean by "distinct ways." Would just tack stubs be a "way" as opposed to merging tracks as another "way"?

[Kacie Jane]

Okay, I've got a few...

 

These first two work for either the express or local.

 

1) Beyond the terminal station, have a track diverge between the local and express track in each direction. These tracks then lead to a separate (typically lower) level with a diamond crossover (I think this is the correct term for what I'm talking about). This is how the terminate in Forest Hills (although an express train could do so just as easily), diverging to the yard tracks and reversing on the lower level.

 

2) Similarly, but IMHO distinctly, rather than diverging to a new pair of tracks, the terminating tracks could simply climb/descend to another level, cross over/under the continuing tracks, and reverse in a relay area/yard. This is essentially what the does at 168th, and the at Utica. It's also essentially what happens between Canal and Chambers on the 8th Avenue line.

 

And then the easiest of course is for the express (inner) tracks. Just put a diamond crossover either just prior or just past the terminal station. The inner tracks can then either end immediately or continue past the station to a relay area or beyond. Examples include 2nd Avenue (not an express/local setup, but still 4 tracks/2 platforms), Brighton Beach, and 57th/7th.

 

So hopefully that counts as 3 ways for express and 2 for local.

[alejr88]

Not only 168 Street but i think you forgot Euclid Avenue.

[SubwayGuy]

Answers in red:

 

Take your basic 4-track 2-platform local / express station design, or a 4-track 3-platform local / express station design.

 

a) There are at least four separate and distinct ways to terminate the local route, while allowing the express route to continue onward. What are these four ways, and what actual working examples can you find.

 

-Local track loop Brooklyn Bridge

-Local tracks crossunder express tracks and go into the middle, then there's a relay past the station 168 St.

-Relay tracks on a lower (or, for that matter, upper) level which do not interfere with the express tracks Continental Ave, Euclid Ave.

-Separate platform on a lower (or, for that matter, upper) level ( 145 St., as well as original plans for the BMT Broadway subway (which changed).

-Separate station platform on same level and in same complex World Trade

 

There are at least four separate and distinct ways to terminate the express route, while allowing the local route to continue onward. What are these four ways, and what actual working examples can you find.

 

-Split level station with a split level relay, Utica Ave.

-Express tracks make up the middle pockets of a 4 track, 2 island platform station 57 St., Brighton Beach

-Express train relays on a middle track of a 3 track, 2 island platform station N/B East 180th St.

-Separate platform on a lower (or, for that matter, upper) level.

-Separate relay on a lower or upper level.

 

In each case, the terminating route (local or express) usually does not interfere with the operations of the through running route (local or express).

 

Have fun.

Mike

[MikeGerald]

Hi guys,

 

I'm so proud of your answers, however there is one example that was not mentioned which is especially interesting because there are 3 examples of this type of local / express station, where the express trains can, do or did terminate and the locals continue onward.

 

Just one note included with this question of 4 track / 2 platform local / express stations, and 4 track / 3 platform local / express stations - the East 180th Street station would not apply - its a 3-track line.

 

However besides the 3 really interesting 3 track 2 platform stations that serve as terminals for local trains, where there are 3 tracks both before and after the station. There are a few others with 3 tracks and 2 platforms - stations that serve or served as terminals that are interesting design choices. Can anyone name about a dozen of these. Enjoy.

 

Mike

[Kacie Jane]

I'm going to hazard a guess that the missing answer is something like Queens Plaza or Atlantic Avenue, where there's a pocket track between the two express tracks, thus allowing some express trains to terminate while both express and local trains can continue on.

 

Ironically, Queens Plaza turned local trains this way, but since that didn't meet Mike's requirements for the question (letting express trains continue unimpeded), they cut it back to Court Square. *wink*

[MikeGerald]

Yes, it is Atlantic Avenue, or if you want 34th Street-Seventh Avenue, or 34th Street-Eighth Avenue.

 

They are local / express stations with 4 tracks, and 3 platforms. Where the center platforms hold the express trains, and where those trains can be terminated and relayed uptown or back to Manhattan.

 

The Atlantic Avenue example was done for decades on the #4 and #5 lines during the mid-days.

 

These also examples of local / express stations that serve as transfer stations to rail roads.

 

Mike

[Kacie Jane]

Out of curiosity, Mike, how would you have answered your question? That's an interesting one, because we're all going to describe the track layouts a little bit differently, and many of us probably have slight different ideas of what constitutes a "distinct" answer. So what exactly were the four (eight?) answers you were looking for?

 

However besides the 3 really interesting 3 track 2 platform stations that serve as terminals for local trains, where there are 3 tracks both before and after the station. There are a few others with 3 tracks and 2 platforms - stations that serve or served as terminals that are interesting design choices. Can anyone name about a dozen of these. Enjoy.

 

Mike

 

I can think of 4 three-track/two-platform stations that serve as terminals for local trains, but they're all very different from each other, and only one of them actually has 3 tracks both before and after the station:

 

• Bedford Park Blvd ( - The layout of the Concourse tracks in this area never made sense to me; it seems there would have to be a more efficient way to do this. While there are three tracks at the station itself, there are actually four tracks on either side, with the center track (which is actually the local track) becoming two tracks to the yard on the north side, and a proper north-south pair of local tracks on the south side.
  
• 145th Street lower level - This layout makes a lot more sense, it's just a simple 4 track line becoming 3. Rush hours, express D trains use the middle track to run express up to the Bronx, other times local B trains use the middle track to terminate.
  
• Parkchester - Don't think there's any explanation needed on this one. Local trains layup on the middle track north of the station, while express trains come in on the local tracks and cross to the middle track in front of layup area.
  
• Flushing-Main Street - I'm perhaps being a little silly on this one, but it has three tracks and two platforms, and it turns local (and express) trains.
  

 

 

A few other three-track stations I can think of that have served as terminals: Whitehall Street , 9th Avenue (Mx), Bay Parkway (Mx), and Kings Highway . In fact, I believe back when there was a Culver express, Kings Highway turned local trains in exactly the same manner as Parkchester does.

[MikeGerald]

You have found the "famous" three: Parkchester on the #6 line with all switch work aft of the station. Then there's King's Highway on the F-line with switch work both fore and aft of the station. And then there's the Bay Parkway station for the D and M trains.

 

Now on the others that you mentioned and did not mention.

 

The Whitehall Street station for the R and W does not apply, since it's two tracks before the station, three tracks / 2 platforms for the station, and then two tracks after the station. Which is also why Essex Street for the J-M-Z does not apply.

 

Starting from the left side of the subway map: there's 137th Street on the #1, with three tracks before and three tracks plus layup tracks after, however the station does have two platforms.

 

The 145th Street-St. Nicholas Avenue station for the B and D is an interesting example, but it really is inside a structure of seven tracks, with the A and C above it.

 

On the #4 line there are two stations - Burnside Avenue and Bedford Avenue where some #4 rush hour trains end their runs. At Burnside Avenue the track switch arrangement makes it an interesting terminal. At Bedford Avenue, terminating #4 trains head to/from the train yard or center track.

 

On the B and D Concourse line, there's the Bedford Park Blvd station which is an interesting arrangement for a three-track 2 platform terminal, and the only example of such a station in the MTA. Remember that the builders of the IND lines spent a great deal of money, and often "over-engineered" what was built, and ran out of money when it came to extensions. To me, the 205th Street station as a design for a terminal simply makes no sense, as compared with the other station terminal designs. Now knowing that the builders of the IND simply ran out of money to extend the Concourse line now makes that terminal slightly make sense.

 

On the #2 and #5 lines there's the East 180th Street station where there are switch work both before and aft of the station, as while as track yard access from both the left and right sides of the main tracks, and track access to the Dyre Avenue line. This is a really interesting capable station. Next up is the Gun Hill Road station that often serves as the terminal station for #5 rush hour trains that are sent up the express middle track. What makes both of these stations really interesting is that there is a full X cross-over switch arrangement to all of the tracks. Meaning that trains can be terminated and relayed using any of the three main tracks even if usually only the center is used for such an operation.

 

Next up is the previously mentioned Parkchester station for the #6, which manages to do a great deal of work, with just four switches. Such a capable station with a heavy work load using four simple switches - beautiful.

 

On the #7 line, the really interesting 3-track / 2 platform (actually 3 platform) terminal is Willets Point, not Flushing. Flushing does not have any tracks "north" of the station. Baseball related #7 express trains often start and terminate there. Now you're going to say that there are yard access tracks that are a park of the station, true, but the 3 main tracks exist both before and after the station.

 

On the J-M-Z lines one could include the Myrtle Avenue station since it IS a terminal for the M-trains shuttle, and contains switch work for the J/Z portion that allows it to be a terminal. Another station would be Eastern Parkway - Broadway Junction. Yes, three tracks before, and 3 main tracks and yard access tracks, and switch work for the L-line, ending up with 2 tracks at the next station. To me the station is interesting when one considers how the old K or KK trains actually terminated and relayed at this station. The station also has very capable switch work before the station, and after the station.

 

There's the previously discussed Kings Highway station with switch work both before and after the station. The interesting part about this station is that one track switch was removed aft of the station, thus no longer allowing trains from Coney Island to run express on the middle track toward Church Avenue or Manhattan. Many transit fans have posted that they want the Coney Island F-trains to run express, but now the switch work does not exist, when a couple of decades ago it did. Still a very capable station for Kings Highway F-trains to terminate.

 

Next up - Kings Highway on the N-line. Although the track structure is 4 tracks, and there WERE 4 tracks - it is well known that the N-line Sea Beach segment is a 3 track segment, with the removal from service the "downtown" express track. The remaining express track is block signaled for both directions. The Kings Highway station is / was known as the terminal of some N-trains, and often as a place were train crews were switched or operated out of.

 

Next up is the previously mentioned Bay Parkway station for the D and brown M trains. While all of the switch work is aft of the station, this often played the role of a terminal. While rush hour M-trains no longer terminate there, some rush hour put-in and layups for D-trains occur there.

 

It think that should be about a dozen 3 track / 2 platform stations that are or have served as terminals. Hope this was interesting.

 

Mike