realizm Posted January 9, 2014 Share #1 Posted January 9, 2014 Wednesday, January 08, 2014 - 04:30 PM WNYC By JIM O'GRADY Governor Cuomo used his State of the State speech on Wednesday to express support for an MTA plan to send Metro-North trains through neighborhoods in the East Bronx. "We will open a new spur for Metro-North railroad to provide more resiliency and direct access to Penn Station, which will also, at the same time, build four new stations to bring transit options to the Bronx," Cuomo said. The new stations would be built in Hunts Point, Parkchester, Morris Park and Co-Op City. New Haven line trains would use an Amtrak rail line that runs through Manhattan, Queens and the Bronx. The MTA says the new line, which could be built by 2019, would carry thousands of Bronx commuters to and from Penn Station in 20 to 30 minutes. The project's estimated cost is $1 billion dollars. The MTA has extensively studied the idea of bringing commuter rail to the East Bronx. In October, officials held public information meetings in the four Bronx neighborhoods that would see new stations. (Bronx officials have backed the plan, calling it a job creator and long-needed link to Manhattan and Connecticut for a transit-starved area.) A presentation from one of the public meetings shows that the plan depends on Metro-North becoming a major tenant of Penn Station. It assumes that platform space will be opening in 2019, when the MTA's East Side Access project is scheduled to be done, allowing Long Island Railroad trains to carry passengers to Grand Central Terminal. But railroad officials and elected representatives from Long Island have been wary about surrendering any of Penn Station's precious train slots. Perhaps Governor Cuomo, with his endorsement of a Metro-North expansion, will prompt an agreement on the issue. Read More: Source Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JubaionBx12+SBS Posted January 9, 2014 Share #2 Posted January 9, 2014 Sounds like a really nice idea if they can get it done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turbo19 Posted January 9, 2014 Share #3 Posted January 9, 2014 Surely this new spur will increase options and revitalize these areas. I'm in full support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qjtransitmaster Posted January 9, 2014 Share #4 Posted January 9, 2014 Sounds like a really nice idea if they can get it done. Row is there they just have to build stations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LIRR 154 Posted January 9, 2014 Share #5 Posted January 9, 2014 Looks like Cuomo got his work cut out trying to appease Lirr officials. A favor for a favor will probably come in place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobtehpanda Posted January 9, 2014 Share #6 Posted January 9, 2014 Row is there they just have to build stations. And provide proper electrification... and somehow account for the differences in third rail contact shoes, which cannot be swapped from over-running to under-running on the fly. A big part of this proposal is the assumption that LIRR will be reducing service into Penn Station by meaningful amounts. They're building new capacity into the LIRR as part of East Side Access, to provide more service on the Main Line. Reconfigurations of Jamaica Station will increase capacity by 40%. The Massepequa Pocket Track and the extension of the Great Neck Pocket Track, as well as the Port Washington Branch will allow for a substantial increase in LIRR service. In any case, this plan has been in the works for years, and it would be nice if Cuomo could stop jumping in front of things and take credit in things he has had no involvement with during his tenure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted January 9, 2014 Share #7 Posted January 9, 2014 And provide proper electrification... and somehow account for the differences in third rail contact shoes, which cannot be swapped from over-running to under-running on the fly. A big part of this proposal is the assumption that LIRR will be reducing service into Penn Station by meaningful amounts. They're building new capacity into the LIRR as part of East Side Access, to provide more service on the Main Line. Reconfigurations of Jamaica Station will increase capacity by 40%. The Massepequa Pocket Track and the extension of the Great Neck Pocket Track, as well as the Port Washington Branch will allow for a substantial increase in LIRR service. In any case, this plan has been in the works for years, and it would be nice if Cuomo could stop jumping in front of things and take credit in things he has had no involvement with during his tenure. Cuomo isn't taking credit for anything. In order for this deal to get done, it's Cuomo that has to lobby for the funding that is needed on the federal level to make up the difference between what the already has set aside and what is needed, so all of the studying in the world won't make a difference. That's where he comes into play... What I'm concerned about is the need to improve the current Penn Station. Penn Station in comparison to Grand Central is a dump. Get the bums out, bring in some upscale merchants and come up with a new design that would make the station more accessible, and more in line with the 21st century. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadcruiser1 Posted January 9, 2014 Share #8 Posted January 9, 2014 They should construct a station in Queens. This would allow people to go between the Bronx, and Queens without going through Manhattan... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truckie Posted January 9, 2014 Share #9 Posted January 9, 2014 Before LIRR gives up slots in Penn, and stations get built and electrification issues get dealt with Amtrak will have allow Metro North to operate on the line and crews will have to get qualified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted January 9, 2014 Share #10 Posted January 9, 2014 Before LIRR gives up slots in Penn, and stations get built and electrification issues get dealt with Amtrak will have allow Metro North to operate on the line and crews will have to get qualified. They have years to worry about that though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P3F Posted January 9, 2014 Share #11 Posted January 9, 2014 If terminal capacity is a problem they still always have the option of sending some trains to Atlantic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobtehpanda Posted January 10, 2014 Share #12 Posted January 10, 2014 Cuomo isn't taking credit for anything. In order for this deal to get done, it's Cuomo that has to lobby for the funding that is needed on the federal level to make up the difference between what the already has set aside and what is needed, so all of the studying in the world won't make a difference. That's where he comes into play... What I'm concerned about is the need to improve the current Penn Station. Penn Station in comparison to Grand Central is a dump. Get the bums out, bring in some upscale merchants and come up with a new design that would make the station more accessible, and more in line with the 21st century. Well, fixing Penn requires moving MSG and demolishing Penn Plaza, and the Dolans just finished a $1B renovation because the city and state could not find a suitable new location. They should construct a station in Queens. This would allow people to go between the Bronx, and Queens without going through Manhattan... There will be a Sunnyside station built as part of East Side Access, which Metro-North trains will probably end up traveling through (although the wisdom of placing a station inside Harold Interlocking is very questionable) If terminal capacity is a problem they still always have the option of sending some trains to Atlantic. This is not true, because the interlocking around Jamaica will be reconfigured to streamline operations by moving Atlantic service to a platform between the AirTrain building and the existing station, and through routing trains to Atlantic Terminal will be extremely difficult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted January 10, 2014 Share #13 Posted January 10, 2014 Well, fixing Penn requires moving MSG and demolishing Penn Plaza, and the Dolans just finished a $1B renovation because the city and state could not find a suitable new location. Why did that other set up fall through? I forget... They were supposed to move MSG over to where the current postal facility is and then subsequently relocate Penn Station as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobtehpanda Posted January 10, 2014 Share #14 Posted January 10, 2014 Why did that other set up fall through? I forget... They were supposed to move MSG over to where the current postal facility is and then subsequently relocate Penn Station as well. Because, as with every project in New York, it was taking way too long. There still isn't full funding for Moniyhan Station. Remember when they told us the Freedom Tower would open in 2006? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vistausss Posted January 10, 2014 Share #15 Posted January 10, 2014 Because, as with every project in New York, it was taking way too long. There still isn't full funding for Moniyhan Station. Or 10th Ave . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobtehpanda Posted January 10, 2014 Share #16 Posted January 10, 2014 Or 10th Ave . Well, yes, but in the grand scheme of things 10th Av is a fairly low priority (and the only reason the 7 extension was built in the first place was because Bloomberg wanted to fix up Hudson Yards; prior to the Olympic bid it was just another one of Giuliani's ideas that flopped) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vistausss Posted January 10, 2014 Share #17 Posted January 10, 2014 Well, yes, but in the grand scheme of things 10th Av is a fairly low priority (and the only reason the 7 extension was built in the first place was because Bloomberg wanted to fix up Hudson Yards; prior to the Olympic bid it was just another one of Giuliani's ideas that flopped) True, but fact is that 10th Ave was up for a bid but got *canceled* because no funding could be found. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
realizm Posted January 10, 2014 Author Share #18 Posted January 10, 2014 Why did that other set up fall through? I forget... They were supposed to move MSG over to where the current postal facility is and then subsequently relocate Penn Station as well. The Subcommittee on Zoning and Franchises granted a 10 year extension of their 50 year license last year to operate before they may be required to relocate so that the Penn Station relocation project (to bring it up to 21st century standards) can begin. When that expires MSG has the option to reapply or be evicted. So thats the delay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Via Garibaldi 8 Posted January 10, 2014 Share #19 Posted January 10, 2014 The Subcommittee on Zoning and Franchises granted a 10 year extension of their 50 year license last year to operate before they may be required to relocate so that the Penn Station relocation project (to bring it up to 21st century standards) can begin. When that expires MSG has the option to reapply or be evicted. So thats the delay. lol @evicted... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadcruiser1 Posted January 10, 2014 Share #20 Posted January 10, 2014 This is not true, because the interlocking around Jamaica will be reconfigured to streamline operations by moving Atlantic service to a platform between the AirTrain building and the existing station, and through routing trains to Atlantic Terminal will be extremely difficult. Seems kind of dumb. If they don't do it they can run trains directly between Brooklyn, and the Bronx. Everyone living outside Manhattan along with people that don't work in Manhattan need a service like this. Yet the is preventing it from happening. Now what do we do? Argh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
realizm Posted January 10, 2014 Author Share #21 Posted January 10, 2014 Seems kind of dumb. If they don't do it they can run trains directly between Brooklyn, and the Bronx. Everyone living outside Manhattan along with people that don't work in Manhattan need a service like this. Yet the is preventing it from happening. Now what do we do? Argh! What comes to mind was that Walder had the New York City Transit idea of building the Triboro RX line to connect the busiest stations between Brooklyn, Queens and the Bronx. Utilizing in part the ROW the MNRR project will now tentatively utilize. I had similar questions as to why a Queens station was never considered. As to why? Not sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobtehpanda Posted January 10, 2014 Share #22 Posted January 10, 2014 Seems kind of dumb. If they don't do it they can run trains directly between Brooklyn, and the Bronx. Everyone living outside Manhattan along with people that don't work in Manhattan need a service like this. Yet the is preventing it from happening. Now what do we do? Argh! No, they can't... Jamaica is well to the east of any connection between Brooklyn and the Bronx. What on earth are you talking about? The MTA prevents nothing. The MTA having no $$$ prevents things. What comes to mind was that Walder had the New York City Transit idea of building the Triboro RX line to connect the busiest stations between Brooklyn, Queens and the Bronx. Utilizing in part the ROW the MNRR project will now tentatively utilize. I had similar questions as to why a Queens station was never considered. As to why? Not sure. I don't think RX included many, if any stations between Jackson Heights and the Bronx; the Hell Gate Viaduct, which is pretty much the only place you could build a station in Astoria, is very high above the ground. If MNRR was going to serve Penn Station, any train station on the LIRR it would be serving would be built as part of East Side Access. It wouldn't be shown on this map because 1. the station might be located east of Harold Interlocking and 2. it's already been built as part of another project. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadcruiser1 Posted January 11, 2014 Share #23 Posted January 11, 2014 No, they can't... Jamaica is well to the east of any connection between Brooklyn and the Bronx. What on earth are you talking about? The MTA prevents nothing. The MTA having no $$$ prevents things. I don't think RX included many, if any stations between Jackson Heights and the Bronx; the Hell Gate Viaduct, which is pretty much the only place you could build a station in Astoria, is very high above the ground. If MNRR was going to serve Penn Station, any train station on the LIRR it would be serving would be built as part of East Side Access. It wouldn't be shown on this map because 1. the station might be located east of Harold Interlocking and 2. it's already been built as part of another project. My mistake. I didn't get it till now. Is it possible to have the Triboro RX plan turned into a railroad line for the M.N.R.R. that would run between 59th Street, and Co-Op City???????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobtehpanda Posted January 11, 2014 Share #24 Posted January 11, 2014 My mistake. I didn't get it till now. Is it possible to have the Triboro RX plan turned into a railroad line for the M.N.R.R. that would run between 59th Street, and Co-Op City???????? While it is possible, this raises many, many questions, all of which are not easy to answer. 1. Where are the cars for this kind of service going to come from? Metro-North does not exactly have surplus train cars lying around. 2. Where is this service going to turn back after hitting Co-op City? You can't have trains just turn back on the tracks on the Northeast Corridor. 3. What kind of service are you going to run on this thing? 4. What kind of frequency are you going to run? The line over the Hell Gate is only two tracks wide, and you have to accommodate MNR and Amtrak. 5. What staffing levels will be used on these trains? If the answers to 4 and 5 are "as frequently as the subway" and "at MNR staffing levels", then it is too expensive of a service to provide for MNR. The question then becomes, "who can we get to run this thing?". With each question, the picture only gets more and more complex. It's not about what is possible, but what is practical. As of right now, with today's organizational structures and political, as well as technical considerations, it is difficult. A much easier initial segment would be 59th St to Broadway Junction, or 59th St to Roosevelt, which are both still significantly useful (and only have to deal with one freight operator). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qjtransitmaster Posted January 11, 2014 Share #25 Posted January 11, 2014 While it is possible, this raises many, many questions, all of which are not easy to answer. 1. Where are the cars for this kind of service going to come from? Metro-North does not exactly have surplus train cars lying around. 2. Where is this service going to turn back after hitting Co-op City? You can't have trains just turn back on the tracks on the Northeast Corridor. 3. What kind of service are you going to run on this thing? 4. What kind of frequency are you going to run? The line over the Hell Gate is only two tracks wide, and you have to accommodate MNR and Amtrak. 5. What staffing levels will be used on these trains? If the answers to 4 and 5 are "as frequently as the subway" and "at MNR staffing levels", then it is too expensive of a service to provide for MNR. The question then becomes, "who can we get to run this thing?". With each question, the picture only gets more and more complex. It's not about what is possible, but what is practical. As of right now, with today's organizational structures and political, as well as technical considerations, it is difficult. A much easier initial segment would be 59th St to Broadway Junction, or 59th St to Roosevelt, which are both still significantly useful (and only have to deal with one freight operator). How fast can a rail barge boat go between st George and bay ridge theoretically? what are the limits? A tunnel is always better but just curious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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