Manhattan-Centric Transit System Falls Short in Other Boroughs

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I believe it was Sydney Bingham who said, "The need for a new Second Avenue Subway has not been sufficiently emphasized. The current problem is like taking 4 pipes 10 feet in diameter, all converging into a single pipe 10 feet in diameter. A new Second Avenue Subway is the answer to that. We don't need extensions to the outlying areas yet. What we need is a new trunk line to absorb the traffic from the older Manhattan lines." 

 

He, by the way, was the creator of the 1945 variation of the SAS. 

That may be true, but the topic being discussed is "Manhattan-Centric Transit System Falls Short in Other Boroughs"...

[Fresh Pond]

Which would push out the very people clammoring for subway service... Not every neighborhood needs subway service and if they did, they would've had it by now.

So I guess a world war, recession, money hungry state senate, a few other wars, a depression, and a fiscal crisis or 2 had nothing to do with it...

[Via Garibaldi 8]

So I guess a world war, recession, money hungry state senate, a few other wars, a depression, and a fiscal crisis or 2 had nothing to do with it...

Yeah and opposition to it such as the infamous Robert Moses... 

[bobtehpanda]

Well which is it?  You're clamoring for subway service in areas that rely heavily on bus service and can have parts that have longer walks than more urban areas of Queens.  For what it's worth there are quite a few suburban areas of Queens. Just about all of Northeast Queens (i.e. Whitestone and areas within Whitestone (Melba, and Beechurst)), Bayside, Bay Terrace, and then there are areas such as Fresh Meadows, Floral Park/Lake Success area, Glen Oaks, Neponsit/Belle Harbor, Howard Beach, etc.

 

Queens is, geographically speaking, the biggest borough. Are there far-flung places that are super-suburban and shouldn't get subways? Of course. However, there are also still extremely dense neighborhoods that are a good two or three miles from the nearest subway, which in rush hour generally means a 30-45 minute trip as your bus attempts to crawl its way into either Flushing or Jamaica. The borough is so big that you can have sizeable subway extensions without touching every corner of the borough and reaching the city line, but still have everyone within a 15 minute bus trip of the subway.

[bobtehpanda]

Yeah and opposition to it such as the infamous Robert Moses... 

 

The point is that the need for more subway service has been recognized, but every single time financial catastrophe of some sort generally strikes just as it's about to happen and funding's been perfectly lined up (1929 - literally proposed the day before Black Friday crash, 1939 - WWII runaway inflation, 1950s - Korean War runaway inflation, 1970s - fiscal crisis). Only now have we started the slow-motion process of actually building what we've needed over the decades.

[deskjockey]

So Queens shouldn't get subway extensions because they don't currently have subway lines so they shouldn't get new subway lines because they don't currently have subway lines?

 

Like them tautologies, much?

 

It bares repeating that the various areas of the city that currently have subway lines where once farms or, quelle horreur!, low-density single family homes. Stuff changes. West Farms was once farms. West St was deep in the Hudson River.

 

If you want an example more temporally, though not physically, close then look at Portland, or Vancouver, or the Silver Line in Virginia. All examples of adding rail transit (light, light-ish or heavy) to the same sorts of lower-density SFHs that then caused (or will cause, in the case of WMATA's extension) heavier development for the betterment of the city in the whole.

[Fresh Pond]

So Queens shouldn't get subway extensions because they don't currently have subway lines so they shouldn't get new subway lines because they don't currently have subway lines?

 

Like them tautologies, much?

 

It bares repeating that the various areas of the city that currently have subway lines where once farms or, quelle horreur!, low-density single family homes. Stuff changes. West Farms was once farms. West St was deep in the Hudson River.

 

If you want an example more temporally, though not physically, close then look at Portland, or Vancouver, or the Silver Line in Virginia. All examples of adding rail transit (light, light-ish or heavy) to the same sorts of lower-density SFHs that then caused (or will cause, in the case of WMATA's extension) heavier development for the betterment of the city in the whole.

As I was reading this, the came to my mind...

 

It was LITERALLY built through farmland and look at it now.

[Trainmaster5]

Because (politically) we're not.

 

Physically, yes.

 

You'd still be hard pressed to find anyone who will say that Queens and Brooklyn are part of Long Island.

The just shows you the ignorance of many New Yorkers these days. An atlas and or a history book would do wonders for those people. Suffolk County was always considered the boonies but I wonder how many Queens or Nassau County residents know the history of their own counties. Hint.....Nassau is Queens east historically with the county seat being Mineola or Jamaica at different times. The creation of the City of New York created a political boundary but before that happened there was no real difference in the history of the county(s). As you rightfully point out one would be hard pressed to find people who consider Kings and Queens counties part of Long Island. The obvious followups are "where are New York county and Richmond county located" ? Manhattan Island and Staten Island, right? To put it in it's simplest form the City of New York is located on three islands and one mainland territory( Bronx County). Carry on.

[m7zanr160s]

Well, my neighborhood has two redundant LIRR lines and it is NOT a suburb. If the schedule on the bus stop says "every 2 to 3 min" in the morning, instead of an actual time, and most everyone that's boarding is going to the subway, we need subway service. On top of that, no major tunneling is needed, just the building of a couple extra stations and BAM! useful extension. Then, we could take a few of those buses to create a new line or 2 to feed the extension and West Hempstead branch for those wanting LIRR service.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

Which would push out the very people clammoring for subway service... Not every neighborhood needs subway service and if they did, they would've had it by now.

Wrong. It's the lack of political will on the part of Albany and City Hall to expand the subway to areas of the city that really do need it - like Southeast Queens - that's keeping the subway from being extended there.

Which is precisely what suburban areas tend to do that aren't meant to have subways running all about...

Who decides what areas are "not meant to have subways running all about" anyway? There are many areas of eastern Queens that are not suburban yet have no subway. Hillside Ave continues to be built up well past 179th St. The density really doesn't drop off until Springfield Blvd. It's dense enough that the MTA has to run multiple local bus routes well past 179th (they're not doing it just because they want to). Same goes for Merrick and Guy Brewer boulevards in southeast Queens. Speaking of southeast Queens, there's the giant housing project complex on Brewer. Nothing suburban about that.

 

Lastly, there are actual suburbs with rapid transit rail. CTA's Purple Line serves Evanston and Wilmette, IL, and its Yellow Line serves Skokie. Cleveland RTA's Blue and Green lines serve Shaker Heights, OH. And the MBTA's Green Line C and D branches serve Brookline, MA, while the D continues well into Newton. Now if Evanston, Shaker Heights and Newton can all have rapid transit rail, then why can't Hollis, Laurelton or Springfield Gardens, Queens, have rapid transit rail? What do Evanston, Shaker Heights and Newton have that makes them "more worthy" of rapid transit rail than eastern or southeastern Queens?

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Well, my neighborhood has two redundant LIRR lines and it is NOT a suburb. If the schedule on the bus stop says "every 2 to 3 min" in the morning, instead of an actual time, and most everyone that's boarding is going to the subway, we need subway service. On top of that, no major tunneling is needed, just the building of a couple extra stations and BAM! useful extension. Then, we could take a few of those buses to create a new line or 2 to feed the extension and West Hempstead branch for those wanting LIRR service.

The fact that you have "two redundant LIRR lines" but don't use them says quite a bit.... It means that they're there to be used... The issue here isn't the need for a subway because you have two FAST options to get to the city. You just refuse to use them, which is not the (MTA)'s fault.  It's preposterous to think that the should spend billions of dollars for a subway just because people have a service but don't want to use it.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Wrong. It's the lack of political will on the part of Albany and City Hall to expand the subway to areas of the city that really do need it - like Southeast Queens - that's keeping the subway from being extended there.

Who decides what areas are "not meant to have subways running all about" anyway? There are many areas of eastern Queens that are not suburban yet have no subway. Hillside Ave continues to be built up well past 179th St. The density really doesn't drop off until Springfield Blvd. It's dense enough that the MTA havs to run multiple local bus routes well past 179th. Same goes for Merrick and Guy Brewer boulevards in southeast Queens. Speaking of southeast Queens, there's the giant housing project complex on Brewer. Nothing suburban about that.

 

Lastly, there are actual suburbs with rapid transit rail. CTA's Purple Line serves Evanston and Wilmette, IL, and its Yellow Line serves Skokie. Cleveland RTA's Blue and Green lines serve Shaker Heights, OH. And the MBTA's Green Line C and D branches serve Brookline, MA, while the D continues well into Newton. Now if Evanston, Shaker Heights and Newton can all have rapid transit rail, then why can't Hollis, Laurelton or Springfield Gardens, Queens, have rapid transit rail? What do Evanston, Shaker Heights and Newton have that makes them "more worthy" of rapid transit rail than eastern or southeastern Queens?

Well listen the areas you speak of have the LIRR and if people can't afford it or don't want to use well that isn't the (MTA)'s fault.  Those people knew all about the transportation options when they moved there.  I happen to live in a neighborhood without a subway and you know something? I knew that, so what did I do? I INVESTED in my commute by spending more money for the express bus or Metro-North for a reasonable commute.  The train is a bus ride away or a good 20+ walk, not to mention the array of transfers necessary to complete my commute after I get off of the train, but that's what it is.  Those areas also have express buses to my knowledge that people refuse to use as well, so they have more than enough options.  No one is forcing them to take the local bus to the subway.  It's just absurb to have an obsession with using the subway and then move to an area that doesn't have one and then complain about wanting one.  Move to an area with a subway then. 

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Queens is, geographically speaking, the biggest borough. Are there far-flung places that are super-suburban and shouldn't get subways? Of course. However, there are also still extremely dense neighborhoods that are a good two or three miles from the nearest subway, which in rush hour generally means a 30-45 minute trip as your bus attempts to crawl its way into either Flushing or Jamaica. The borough is so big that you can have sizeable subway extensions without touching every corner of the borough and reaching the city line, but still have everyone within a 15 minute bus trip of the subway.

Well that's why Queens has so many express buses... They're there for a reason, and those who really want a fast commute use them OR they use the LIRR.  Sitting around hoping and complaining about a subway that may not ever be built seems pointless.  Why not focus on improving LIRR service, something that can be improved far quicker than any suwbay could ever be built...

[JubaionBx12+SBS]

I'm sorry VG8 but not all folks have a choice in where they live but would like to have a choice in what areas are a reasonable commute (in terms of both time and cost) from where they live. I fit this category. I decided to stay at home with my family (to avoid the debt of going away) and that means living in Baychester because that's where they live. As a 21 year old college student that has yet to secure a well-paying job I really have no financial means to move anywhere else. As far as Baychester is concerned there is subway access but that access comes in the form of the (or the for those who take the Bx12+SBS to PBP) which is the least reliable line in the MTA and is almost useless on weekends with all of the service disruptions that occur. Basically even a simple commute to Midtown for folks in my area takes almost as long as the East Queens commutes people constantly complain about. Today I made it to my bus stop at 8:08 and didn't get to 23rd/Lex until 9:32. That's going to be unacceptably long when i'm in the professional world and will have to dedicate long days to my craft and will not have the time or energy to put up with anything longer than 45 minutes one-way. In Baychester the only public transit that's 45 minutes or less away gets you to the South Bronx or Harlem by subway or the N/W Bronx by bus. If you were to tell a New Yorker those are the only area within close commuting distance you're not going to get many willing residents.

 

Think before you type VG8.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

VG8, it is actually the MTA's fault. Partially, at least. They run LIRR trains almost "closed-door" through those areas and charge overpriced fares for the few that do stop there (Zone 3 fare monthly pass is $210 (and about to go up), almost $100 more than a monthly MetroCard). With almost every train bypassing those stations and those insanely high fares, there is no other option for many of the folks in eastern and southeastern Queens. If they would run more-frequent LIRR trains that short-turn at Bayside, Rosedale or Belmont Park and invest money in the physical plant to make that possible (i.e., renovate Belmont Park and/or install crossover switches at Rosedale) plus offered free transfers to local buses and the subway, then maybe more people would take the LIRR in those neighborhoods. The MTA could have done that a long time ago.

 

Biting the bullet and paying $210 a month to commute or moving to the Upper West Side with rents well over $2,500 a month is not an option. Stop pretending it is!

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I'm sorry VG8 but not all folks have a choice in where they live but would like to have a choice in what areas are a reasonable commute (in terms of both time and cost) from where they live. I fit this category. I decided to stay at home with my family (to avoid the debt of going away) and that means living in Baychester because that's where they live. As a 21 year old college student that has yet to secure a well-paying job I really have no financial means to move anywhere else. As far as Baychester is concerned there is subway access but that access comes in the form of the (or the for those who take the Bx12+SBS to PBP) which is the least reliable line in the MTA and is almost useless on weekends with all of the service disruptions that occur. Basically even a simple commute to Midtown for folks in my area takes almost as long as the East Queens commutes people constantly complain about. Today I made it to my bus stop at 8:08 and didn't get to 23rd/Lex until 9:32. That's going to be unacceptably long when i'm in the professional world and will have to dedicate long days to my craft and will not have the time or energy to put up with anything longer than 45 minutes one-way. In Baychester the only public transit that's 45 minutes or less away gets you to the South Bronx or Harlem by subway or the N/W Bronx by bus. If you were to tell a New Yorker those are the only area within close commuting distance you're not going to get many willing residents.

 

Think before you type VG8.

Well for what it's worth, New Yorkers have some of the longest commutes in the country.  My commute is usually an hour in the mornings via the express bus coming from Riverdale to Midtown and about 30 - 35 minutes at night, as I use a Super Express bus at night, and I live in an expensive area of the city, but it's either the express bus or Metro-North, which would afford me about a 45 minute to an hour commute (between Metro-North and the shuttle bus) but with no seat on Metro-North, so I usually stick with the express bus unless the weather is terrible or there is really bad traffic. Heck it takes me 40 minutes sometimes by subway just to go from Midtown to Uptown.  That's just the way it is these days in NYC. For what it's worth, I actually tutor on weekends not too far from your area, and I would never use the subway to get there, as it makes far more sense to use the BxM10, which is MUCH faster.  The reality is that the city is becoming increasingly more expensive, and you either have to move further out and endure a longer commute if you want cheaper rents, or move to a dangerous area of Manhattan but still face a sizable commute. Even coming from uptown on the subway is a schlepp due to overcrowding and delayed trains.  

[Via Garibaldi 8]

VG8, it is actually the MTA's fault. Partially, at least. They run LIRR trains almost "closed-door" through those areas and charge overpriced fares for them (Zone 3 fare monthly pass is $210 (and about to go up), almost $100 more than a monthly MetroCard). With almost every train bypassing those stations and those insanely high fares, there is no other option for many of the folks in eastern and southeastern Queens.

 

Biting the bullet and paying $210 a month to commute or moving to the Upper West Side with rents well over $2,500 a month is not an option. Stop pretending it is!

The has little control over the skyrocketing rents in this city (which includes areas outside of Manhattan as well).  That is what is pushing people further and further out, not the .  The areas of the city that have good transportation will be expensive, including areas outside of Manhattan, and that's just the way it is.  The people being pushed further out will face increasingly higher transportation costs for slightly cheaper rents, and they'll either have to pay more for a faster commute, or save on transportation costs and endure lengthy commutes.  Your commute is an INVESTMENT.  People don't look at it that way, but if you choose to live in an area that is further out, that's what it is.  I live in Riverdale by choice, but I could certainly afford to live in Manhattan.  When I factor in my expenses for my residence, plus my transportation costs (express bus & Metro-North), it is only slightly less expensive than the city.  The advantage is that I get more space in Riverdale and A LOT more quiet than I could ever get in the city.

 

The LIRR runs the way it does in some areas of Queens because it isn't used, but it is CERTAINLY used in areas of Northeast Queens like Little Neck and Douglaston, and guess what?  They provide decent service for those areas.  $210 a month is very reasonable.  From Riverdale to Grand Central, a monthly is $193, and will rise to $201 next month.  The fares are in line with upper middle to upper class neighborhoods.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

The has little control over the skyrocketing rents in this city (which includes areas outside of Manhattan as well). That is what is pushing people further and further out, not the . The areas of the city that have good transportation will be expensive, including areas outside of Manhattan, and that's just the way it is. The people being pushed further out will face increasingly higher transportation costs for slightly cheaper rents, and they'll either have to pay more for a faster commute, or save on transportation costs and endure lengthy commutes. Your commute is an INVESTMENT. People don't look at it that way, but if you choose to live in an area that is further out, that's what it is. I live in Riverdale by choice, but I could certainly afford to live in Manhattan. When I factor in my expenses for my residence, plus my transportation costs (express bus & Metro-North), it is only slightly less expensive than the city. The advantage is that I get more space in Riverdale and A LOT more quiet than I could ever get in the city.

 

The LIRR runs the way it does in some areas of Queens because it isn't used, but it is CERTAINLY used in areas of Northeast Queens like Little Neck and Douglaston, and guess what? They provide decent service for those areas. $210 a month is very reasonable. From Riverdale to Grand Central, a monthly is $193, and will rise to $201 next month. The fares are in line with upper middle to upper class neighborhoods.

But the MTA DOES have control over the fares and transfer policies and they CAN give the riders of eastern and southeastern Queens (excluding Little Neck/Douglaston/Bayside, which do have decent service on the PW branch) an incentive to take the train instead of crowding onto 40-foot buses to Jamaica Center, then pouring onto the from there or Sutphin/Archer. They DO have control over how often the trains run. And $210 a month is NOT reasonable for a very large number of folks living in Springfield Gardens or Laurelton.

 

Eventually, enough people are just going to get fed up and just move out of New York City (and State) altogether. Especially given that rents in the eastern parts of Queens are also going up.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

But the MTA DOES have control over the fares and transfer policies and they CAN give the riders of eastern and southeastern Queens (excluding Little Neck/Douglaston which do have decent service on the PW branch) an incentive to take the train instead of crowding onto 40-foot buses to Jamaica Center, then pouring onto the from there or Sutphin/Archer. They DO have control over how often the trains run.

They already have an incentive with the City Ticket, which is just $4.00 ALL WEEKEND long, providing very quick commutes to and from the city.  I get the impression that people in Southeast Queens don't think they should have to pay more for a faster commute, even though they chose to move there.  Running more LIRR service in Southeast Queens costs money (the does have a budget), especially when they barely use the service that they currently have.  I find it interesting that communities such as Little Neck and Douglaston take advantage of their LIRR service and use it, while folks in Southeast Queens bemoan not having subway service.

[T to Dyre Avenue]

They already have an incentive with the City Ticket, which is just $4.00 ALL WEEKEND long, providing very quick commutes to and from the city.  I get the impression that people in Southeast Queens don't think they should have to pay more for a faster commute, even though they chose to move there.  Running more LIRR service in Southeast Queens costs money (the does have a budget), especially when they barely use the service that they currently have.  I find it interesting that communities such as Little Neck and Douglaston take advantage of their LIRR service and use it, while folks in Southeast Queens bemoan not having subway service.

Irrelevant. Most people work Monday through Friday and you know damn well City Tickets cannot be used on those days (even holidays). The existence of City Ticket is a straw man argument.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

Irrelevant. Most people work Monday through Friday and you know damn well City Tickets cannot be used on those days (even holidays). The existence of City Ticket is a straw man argument.

It isn't irrelevant because it exists across NYC for ALL areas and it does encourage people to use it.  I certainly use City Ticket on weekends, but if you believe that the should reduce fares during peak or off-peak periods I have a bridge to sell you.  The point is that Southeast Queens should not receive special treatment, as if they're the only neighborhood without subway service.  Plenty of other neighborhoods don't have it and do just fine, as evidenced by neighborhoods right in Queens, so this yelling about the need for subway service is a much to do about nothing.  If they were really serious about having quick commutes, they would lobby for better LIRR service and actually use it.

[bobtehpanda]

Well that's why Queens has so many express buses... They're there for a reason, and those who really want a fast commute use them OR they use the LIRR.  Sitting around hoping and complaining about a subway that may not ever be built seems pointless.  Why not focus on improving LIRR service, something that can be improved far quicker than any suwbay could ever be built...

 

Depending on where you are, there are places where the express bus is not actually time-competitive with the subway. Why should I take something that is only going to get me there five minutes earlier according to the scheduled time (not including traffic) and is going to cost me more than double my normal commute? Why should I take something that is only going to show up every 30-60 minutes when the bus and subway all show up every 5-10 minutes?

 

Let's be perfectly honest here. Do you see irrational Nassau folk letting city folk take their trains? Plus, even if we boosted service, that isn't even half of the problems. The stations are in crap locations and are almost designed on purpose to be hard for city folk to use. Flushing, which by all accounts is the busiest subway station in the outer boroughs, has an impossible station to navigate that has the entrances for each platform separated by three blocks. Even Jamaica Station, which is the biggest hub in the LIRR system and perfectly poised to take some of the city load off the subway, has easy access from everywhere except the street itself, because they don't want city folk on their trains.

 

"Subway" extension is not necessarily expensive. Keep in mind that SAS included property acquisition, which is probably a good portion of why it cost so much; property in Queens is significantly cheaper than the UES. In fact, the three subway plans for Queens extensions that have been proposed since the '60s mostly consisted of taking tracks from the LIRR and building short connections to the subway, which are already provisioned for throughout the system. But I guess that instead of improving transportation capacity and commute times, we should just sit on our hands and whine till the end of time about how terrible traffic is.

It isn't irrelevant because it exists across NYC for ALL areas and it does encourage people to use it.  I certainly use City Ticket on weekends, but if you believe that the should reduce fares during peak or off-peak periods I have a bridge to sell you.  The point is that Southeast Queens should not receive special treatment, as if they're the only neighborhood without subway service.  Plenty of other neighborhoods don't have it and do just fine, as evidenced by neighborhoods right in Queens, so this yelling about the need for subway service is a much to do about nothing.  If they were really serious about having quick commutes, they would lobby for better LIRR service and actually use it.

 

There are literally three LIRR stations serving all of SE Queens, which is a fairly big geographic area. Even if you boosted service, it's not going to do anything about the fact that stations are spaced several miles apart in very inconvenient locations.

 

Who exactly is arguing for just SE Queens to get reduced-price off-peak fares, anyways?

[N6 Limited]

 

They already have an incentive with the City Ticket, which is just $4.00 ALL WEEKEND long, providing very quick commutes to and from the city.  I get the impression that people in Southeast Queens don't think they should have to pay more for a faster commute, even though they chose to move there.  Running more LIRR service in Southeast Queens costs money (the   does have a budget), especially when they barely use the service that they currently have.  I find it interesting that communities such as Little Neck and Douglaston take advantage of their LIRR service and use it, while folks in Southeast Queens bemoan not having subway service.

 

 

Irrelevant. Most people work Monday through Friday and you know damn well City Tickets cannot be used on those days (even holidays). The existence of City Ticket is a straw man argument.

Not to mention that those services are usually HOURLY.

 

It isn't irrelevant because it exists across NYC for ALL areas and it does encourage people to use it.  I certainly use City Ticket on weekends, but if you believe that the   should reduce fares during peak or off-peak periods I have a bridge to sell you.  The point is that Southeast Queens should not receive special treatment, as if they're the only neighborhood without subway service.  Plenty of other neighborhoods don't have it and do just fine, as evidenced by neighborhoods right in Queens, so this yelling about the need for subway service is a much to do about nothing.  If they were really serious about having quick commutes, they would lobby for better LIRR service and actually use it.

You just don't get it. No one wants to pay LIRR's exorbitant fares. Those deep into Nassau and Suffolk barely have a choice. Those in Western Nassau get on Nice Bus to go to the subway to commute and drive at other times.

 

You have the and express which goes to Jamaica, the is a one way express and doesn't run on weekends. There's a reason the Port Washington Branch gets more usage than Rosedale, Locust Manor, Hollis, Queens Village and St Albans. 

 

If I miss a train at Queens Village to Penn Station, I can wait an hour, or I can just take a bus to the subway, I don't save time because it would take an hour and a half from that point to get to Penn Station because I'd have to wait an hour for the next train, then ride on the train for an half hour. 

 

Also the LIRR stations in Eastern Queens aren't the most easiest to get to.  Sure the Q4 goes past the St Albans stop, but the trains are like 2 hour headways and there are riders who live by Q5/Q85/Q84 that would probably like to use that stop (at subway fares and with subway service) if it had more service and they didn't have to take 3 buses to do so.

 

[T to Dyre Avenue]

I used City Ticket too when I lived in Bayside. If my wife, daughter and I move back to eastern Queens, there will certainly be times when we use it. But the majority of trips taken on City Ticket are leisure trips. Weekday and weekend travel on LIRR/Metro-North are two different ballgames and you can't use the travel patterns of weekend travel to get an idea of what weekday usage would be like. Especially if City Ticket is not valid on weekdays.

 

I said nothing about southeast Queens being any different from other parts of the city that don't have subway service or that it is entitled to "special treatment". I used it simply as an example of an area without the subway. I'm not the one saying the subway needs to be extended there. If anything, I'm suggesting using one of the existing parallel LIRR lines in southeast Queens to provide more frequent rail service that population can take advantage of. Once ESA opens, the LIRR's plan is to turn the Atlantic Branch into a Scoot (shuttle) service that runs between Jamaica and Flatbush Ave, Brooklyn, once every 7.5 minutes during rush hours. That's it. Just four stations, just six-car trains. While people who live beyond Jamaica continue to have to (not "choose" to) cram onto 40-foot buses to get to the or train at Jamaica Center or Sutphin. It doesn't have to be that way. Instead of dead-ending that service in Jamaica, why not invest in the money to build a crossover switch at Rosedale and run trains from Flatbush Ave to Rosedale and/or a rebuilt Belmont Park station on the same 7.5-minute headways and permit free transfers to the subway and local buses? It would cost a hell of a lot less than extending the to Rosedale or Belmont Park. That's for damn sure. If it's successful, then perhaps it can be replicated elsewhere in the city.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I used City Ticket too when I lived in Bayside. If my wife, daughter and I move back to eastern Queens, there will certainly be times when we use it. But the majority of trips taken on City Ticket are leisure trips. Weekday and weekend travel on LIRR/Metro-North are two different ballgames and you can't use the travel patterns of weekend travel to get an idea of what weekday usage would be like. Especially if City Ticket is not valid on weekdays.

 

I said nothing about southeast Queens being any different from other parts of the city that don't have subway service or that it is entitled to "special treatment". I used it simply as an example of an area without the subway. I'm not the one saying the subway needs to be extended there. If anything, I'm suggesting using one of the existing parallel LIRR lines in southeast Queens to provide more frequent rail service that population can take advantage of. Once ESA opens, the LIRR's plan is to turn the Atlantic Branch into a Scoot (shuttle) service that runs between Jamaica and Flatbush Ave, Brooklyn, once every 7.5 minutes during rush hours. That's it. Just four stations, just six-car trains. While people who live beyond Jamaica continue to have to (not "choose" to) cram onto 40-foot buses to get to the or train at Jamaica Center or Sutphin. It doesn't have to be that way. Instead of dead-ending that service in Jamaica, why not invest in the money to build a crossover switch at Rosedale and run trains from Flatbush Ave to Rosedale and/or a rebuilt Belmont Park station on the same 7.5-minute headways and permit free transfers to the subway and local buses? It would cost a hell of a lot less than extending the to Rosedale or Belmont Park. That's for damn sure. If it's successful, then perhaps it can be replicated elsewhere in the city.

Oh they certainly do choose to cram onto 40 foot buses to the subway since they choose not to use the LIRR.

 

 

 

 

 

Not to mention that those services are usually HOURLY.

 

You just don't get it. No one wants to pay LIRR's exorbitant fares. Those deep into Nassau and Suffolk barely have a choice. Those in Western Nassau get on Nice Bus to go to the subway to commute and drive at other times.

 

You have the and express which goes to Jamaica, the is a one way express and doesn't run on weekends. There's a reason the Port Washington Branch gets more usage than Rosedale, Locust Manor, Hollis, Queens Village and St Albans. 

 

If I miss a train at Queens Village to Penn Station, I can wait an hour, or I can just take a bus to the subway, I don't save time because it would take an hour and a half from that point to get to Penn Station because I'd have to wait an hour for the next train, then ride on the train for an half hour. 

 

Also the LIRR stations in Eastern Queens aren't the most easiest to get to.  Sure the Q4 goes past the St Albans stop, but the trains are like 2 hour headways and there are riders who live by Q5/Q85/Q84 that would probably like to use that stop (at subway fares and with subway service) if it had more service and they didn't have to take 3 buses to do so.

 

 

Hourly service... Oh the horror when you live a skip and hop away from Long Island OR you live on Long Island...  Well if more people used the service, trains would be more frequent.  I can use my community as an example. We USE our service, so guess what? Instead of having hourly headways, off-peak, we now have half hour Metro-North service.  Our stations aren't so convenient to get to either, but instead of making a thousand excuses, we use them and invest in our commutes.  Either you want a faster commute and you pay more for it, or you take the bus to the subway.  It's as simple as that.

 

You also are corrected about people not being willing to pay more for a faster commute.  Some people think that they are entitled to subway service when they live in areas without one, while Queens communities like Little Neck and Douglaston are perfectly content using the LIRR.  

Depending on where you are, there are places where the express bus is not actually time-competitive with the subway. Why should I take something that is only going to get me there five minutes earlier according to the scheduled time (not including traffic) and is going to cost me more than double my normal commute? Why should I take something that is only going to show up every 30-60 minutes when the bus and subway all show up every 5-10 minutes?

 

Let's be perfectly honest here. Do you see irrational Nassau folk letting city folk take their trains? Plus, even if we boosted service, that isn't even half of the problems. The stations are in crap locations and are almost designed on purpose to be hard for city folk to use. Flushing, which by all accounts is the busiest subway station in the outer boroughs, has an impossible station to navigate that has the entrances for each platform separated by three blocks. Even Jamaica Station, which is the biggest hub in the LIRR system and perfectly poised to take some of the city load off the subway, has easy access from everywhere except the street itself, because they don't want city folk on their trains.

 

"Subway" extension is not necessarily expensive. Keep in mind that SAS included property acquisition, which is probably a good portion of why it cost so much; property in Queens is significantly cheaper than the UES. In fact, the three subway plans for Queens extensions that have been proposed since the '60s mostly consisted of taking tracks from the LIRR and building short connections to the subway, which are already provisioned for throughout the system. But I guess that instead of improving transportation capacity and commute times, we should just sit on our hands and whine till the end of time about how terrible traffic is.

 

 

There are literally three LIRR stations serving all of SE Queens, which is a fairly big geographic area. Even if you boosted service, it's not going to do anything about the fact that stations are spaced several miles apart in very inconvenient locations.

 

Who exactly is arguing for just SE Queens to get reduced-price off-peak fares, anyways?

The express bus isn't just about time.  It's also about convenience...  I would much rather have the one seat ride that I have where I can take a nap than make a gazillion transfers between the bus and the subways.

 

As for wanting a reduced price, it is hard to justify suburban like areas receiving more discounts while residents in suburbia pay more and more for their commute.  There should be a price to pay for a faster commute, and taxpayers should not be on the hook for it.