Select Bus Service coming to South Brooklyn

[bobtehpanda]

OK, I'll accept that possibility.  But I dunno since there's so much shuffling of buses, I think wraps have made appearances pretty much citywide at some point.  That's basically what I was referring to.  Not everyone has actually used an SBS route itself, but has had some type of contact with it via the buses.

 

Keep in mind that the city is gigantic, and the bus fleet is huge. Some interchanging of buses does occur, but they are not, for instance, going to give non-artic routes SBS wrapped articulateds, and in certain areas articulated routes are not present. Even in areas where they are talking about installing SBS, not many people might know due to either a inability to pay attention or a lack of interest. You have to make time to go to a public meeting, which may be at an odd hour of the day in an out-of-the-way location. The only place they announce SBS really is on a few overhead ads on the buses and trains, but MTA ads and announcements that aren't service changes get ignored on a frequent basis based on how banal they have become. SBS ads are presented in the exact same format as PSAs on not to ride subway trains on the outside and manspreading, when it should really be much more important.

[B35 via Church]

It's sad to say it but I don't see what else the can do to deal with the traffic crisis aside from making more routes SBS.  We really need congestion pricing in this city, but who knows when that will happen...

All making more routes SBS will do is make the SBS status quo for bus service in this city - still stuck in the same (growing) traffic....

 

I want to be clear... I'm not blaming the MTA for the traffic situation in this city.... What I am is annoyed at the MTA painting this service as if buses are gonna be doing this over the myriad of vehicles on our roads:

 

 

....and riders on SBS buses aint got those same gleeful looks on their faces either!!

 

1. 100% agree.This won't help the B82 at all,if anything it will be worse...

 

2. Don't even get me started with the media's BS coverage of the WS...(They were all sucking the Royals' you-know-whats ...)

1. Yep, buses will end up coming (even more) few & far between - which used to be a problem when the B82 first started running, if you know/remember..... The B82 seemed like an extended B5 to Starrett, instead of an extended B50 to Canal, if that makes sense.....

 

side note: Out in Starrett, the ratio of B83's to B82's seem to be increasing....

I'm starting to think, over the years, the MTA has been slowly taking away service from the B82 to give to the B83.... Which is funny, b/c years afterwards (referring to the advent of the B84), it's been said that buses for that route came by way of buses from off the B83.....

 

The MTA has the right idea with the influx of B83 service, however, they still should take buses off Van Siclen.... Then all that service on the B83 would be (more) justified - running them along Penn..... If it comes at the expense of less B20 service, on top of more B20 short turns (which is an FP route, but still), I'd have no qualms..... But trying to bolster the B82 by giving it SBS will do anything but..... There's nothing that can be done with (what I call) navigating/serving "commercial" Kings Hwy (referring to the general vicinity of Kings Hwy around the Brighton)..... That's really the only "choke point" the route has.... The portion b/w Starrett & Flatbush av, and b/w Mermaid Loop/ "commercial" kings hwy are just slow..... The problem just might be too many stops that people are utilizing the buses at.....

 

 

2. Lol, I'm not a Mets fan, I'll admit.... But I wanted them to beat the Roid Jays; I did not think the Royals would beat the Jays....

I didn't watch most of the playoffs, so IDK what the Royals did specifically all series in that ALCS to contain them.....

Met pitching would have embarrassed the Jays offense - the Met offense would have been the "wildcard" (so to speak) in such a series....

Royals/Mets, the Mets didn't have much of a shot - the Royals are a scrappy/pesky team (offensively) that plays defense.... the Mets OTOH defensively all year long have been absolute shit & their offense is the last thing from consistent..... I'd even argue that it's questionable....

 

As for the WS itself, were the Royals really the comeback kids in these late innings, or did Met relief forget how to hold leads in the grandest stage of them all.....

 

... or maybe that was all part of the "script".

 

 

It's entirely possible. Some people only work or go to school within a certain geographic area and may not be familiar with it; for example, there are no SBS routes in Eastern Queens.

I'll do one better than that.....

 

There are people in this neighborhood of mine that don't know what an SBS is with one in the area.... Yeah, Rogers is too far west from where the local runs, but regardless, those that take buses (or dollar cabs) due west in the morning are not thinking about getting to Rogers - not for the 44 SBS & not for the 49.... It's about getting to Nostrand (obviously), Flatbush (to a waning extent, I'll admit), and East 18th (of course).....

 

As for the 44 in & of itself, (local) ridership has definitely waned; don't see as many ppl. waiting for NB buses at NY/Church as you used to.... What I have noticed is an even greater uptick (if it even needs one at this point) in usage on the Nostrand av (subway) line..... And it makes perfect sense - You take away local service on the B44 & the next best thing is about a 5 min. walk or so west to the subway.... You're not going to get much of many ppl. taking the B35 to Rogers to catch the 44 SBS...

 

The riders that are utilizing/benefiting more from NB 44 SBS are those emanating at the Junction & points south.....

I'll stop here for now.

[East New York]

You all do realize that MTA wants SBS on ALL of the highest capacity Limited routes right?? Possibly even off-board payment on others. Dwell times are getting to be totally ridiculous these days. Especially on the B46. The more I ride SBS routes, the more regular ones begin to annoy me during rush hours.

[BrooklynBus]

You all do realize that MTA wants SBS on ALL of the highest capacity Limited routes right?? Possibly even off-board payment on others. Dwell times are getting to be totally ridiculous these days. Especially on the B46. The more I ride SBS routes, the more regular ones begin to annoy me during rush hours.

But the problem is they also want exclusive lanes which may not be a good idea. 86St is the only SBS route without exclusive lanes. There is just too much "trust us" and not enough transparency. Also a refusal to answer questions and those are the problems. I have now been waiting over six months for a reply to my ten legitimate B46 SBS questions. I have now written to Customer service four or five times asking these questions and the only response I get is that they will forward the questions to Operations Planning or a response that there is no staff to evaluate suggestions from the public. They can't even tell the difference between a question and a suggestion. A question end with a question mark. A suggestion doesn't.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

But the problem is they also want exclusive lanes which may not be a good idea. 86St is the only SBS route without exclusive lanes. There is just too much "trust us" and not enough transparency. Also a refusal to answer questions and those are the problems. I have now been waiting over six months for a reply to my ten legitimate B46 SBS questions. I have now written to Customer service four or five times asking these questions and the only response I get is that they will forward the questions to Operations Planning or a response that there is no staff to evaluate suggestions from the public. They can't even tell the difference between a question and a suggestion. A question end with a question mark. A suggestion doesn't.

Well you're clearly anti-SBS... I think there are some good things to SBS, so I'd like to hear some pros regarding the service in your opinion...

 

 

You all do realize that MTA wants SBS on ALL of the highest capacity Limited routes right?? Possibly even off-board payment on others. Dwell times are getting to be totally ridiculous these days. Especially on the B46. The more I ride SBS routes, the more regular ones begin to annoy me during rush hours.

I don't use SBS often but it makes sense in that regard. Too many people seem to have a problem having their Metrocards ready in advance, and they wait there all of that time for the bus.  Makes no sense.

[BrooklynBus]

Well you're clearly anti-SBS... I think there are some good things to SBS, so I'd like to hear some pros regarding the service in your opinion...

 

 

 

 

I don't use SBS often but it makes sense in that regard. Too many people seem to have a problem having their Metrocards ready in advance, and they wait there all of that time for the bus. Makes no sense.

 

It's debatable how anti SBS I am. I believe I already made this comment on Subchat but I will repeat myself. My problem is not with the SBS concept. I believe it can work and does work in places. My problem is with the lack of transparency in the way the MTA and DOT are instituting SBS in this city. Proper data is not collected to show it really works and is worthwhile. And proper consideration is not being given to those who are being hurt by SBS.

 

But to answer your question, the pros of SBS are faster loading with off-board fare collection and faster travel times where exclusive bus lanes are warranted. I do not believe exclusive lanes are warranted when bus service operates at levels greater than every three to five minutes, and certainly not when buses are scheduled to operate every 15 or 30 minutes. Yet that is what is proposed for Woodhaven Boulevard.

 

Those who benefit most from SBS are those passengers making longer trips than average. If a route has high turnover with short average trip lengths, passengers may not be saving time at all when you consider added walking distances to and from the bus. They may be merely trading three minutes saved on the bus for three minutes additional walking. For those routes, it is the MTA who may be saving on bus operator labor, not the passenger. Those making longer trips can save significant time using SBS like t0 or 15 minutes.

 

The question is when all factors are considered: Is it worth it? Although bus requirements may be reduced, operating costs for SBS routes are higher than for limited routes because of the enforcement costs that are needed and the extra equipment which the MTA will have to maintain after the warranties expire. Also, what happens to all ths equipment when the fare media is changed? Will it all have to be scrapped or what would be the cost to modify it? These are all legitimate questions and the MTA isn't providing any answers.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

It's debatable how anti SBS I am. I believe I already made this comment on Subchat but I will repeat myself. My problem is not with the SBS concept. I believe it can work and does work in places. My problem is with the lack of transparency in the way the MTA and DOT are instituting SBS in this city. Proper data is not collected to show it really works and is worthwhile. And proper consideration is not being given to those who are being hurt by SBS.

 

But to answer your question, the pros of SBS are faster loading with off-board fare collection and faster travel times where exclusive bus lanes are warranted. I do not believe exclusive lanes are warranted when bus service operates at levels greater than every three to five minutes, and certainly not when buses are scheduled to operate every 15 or 30 minutes. Yet that is what is proposed for Woodhaven Boulevard.

 

Those who benefit most from SBS are those passengers making longer trips than average. If a route has high turnover with short average trip lengths, passengers may not be saving time at all when you consider added walking distances to and from the bus. They may be merely trading three minutes saved on the bus for three minutes additional walking. For those routes, it is the MTA who may be saving on bus operator labor, not the passenger. Those making longer trips can save significant time using SBS like t0 or 15 minutes.

 

The question is when all factors are considered: Is it worth it? Although bus requirements may be reduced, operating costs for SBS routes are higher than for limited routes because of the enforcement costs that are needed and the extra equipment which the MTA will have to maintain after the warranties expire. Also, what happens to all ths equipment when the fare media is changed? Will it all have to be scrapped or what would be the cost to modify it? These are all legitimate questions and the MTA isn't providing any answers.

Well like I've said before, I don't see any other alternatives that the can implement in the meantime.  Nobody wants congestion pricing, yet the roads are clogged beyond recognition.  That's the real problem here that drivers such as yourself want to sweep under the rug.  If that were addressed, perhaps modifications of SBS would be better than the all out approach.  Until congestion is dealt with in this city, SBS and any other service will be an attempt to improve service and is better than doing nothing at all.  

[aemoreira81]

They are thinking about extending the B82 SBS to gatewaymall? That's a good Idea now I have an easier way to get to Flatlands ave/Flatbush ave when I'm at gateway.

This would also make it easier to get to Gateway which can be a PITA sometimes since the B83 is so unreliable.

[BrooklynBus]

Well like I've said before, I don't see any other alternatives that the can implement in the meantime.  Nobody wants congestion pricing, yet the roads are clogged beyond recognition.  That's the real problem here that drivers such as yourself want to sweep under the rug.  If that were addressed, perhaps modifications of SBS would be better than the all out approach.  Until congestion is dealt with in this city, SBS and any other service will be an attempt to improve service and is better than doing nothing at all.

 

I believe I also said this before. The city mantra is for people to use mass transit. Leave your car at home and take transit. But if you want people to do that, you first need to provide the service. Why do people drive? Because they get there quicker and or they are more comfortable. On Saturday I took the Q train to Manhattan for a defensive driver course. The 4, 5 and 6 were jammed, but that was due to limited service because of track work. But what was the excuse for the Q to have rush hour crowding during a Saturday afternoon? On my trip back home, my car had over 40 standees until Kings Highway. People experience that once and the next time they will take their car. They stand everyday Monday through Friday so on Saturday they would like a seat.

 

If you don't want the roads to be clogged, then you have to provide the proper level of mass transit service. And the issue isn't only subway service. I have written countless articles regarding the need to thoroughly overhauling bus routes to provide better connections and make more trips available on one or two bus trips, not five buses. And it shouldn't take five years to study a simple route extension like it did to extend the B83 from Starrett City to the Gateway Mall.

 

And the need or inter borough express buses and more off-street bus terminals like in Flushing. Not to mention opening closed subway stations which the MTA is first considering now. Of course there is also paying more attention to bus reliability. It is inexcusable to have to wait over two hours for a Q35 as someone here stated he had to do. That is only acceptable during an event like Hurricane Sandy, not a normal trip to the beach. And don't forget it taking 2 or 3 hours for emergency bus service to cover for a subway outage or lowering intercity rail fares to no higher than the price of express buses or allowing at least two hours of riding for one fare instead of basing the fare on the number of vehicles used causing some to make indirect longer and slower trips to avoid a double fare.

 

There are a zillion things the MTA can do to improve transit which would reduce traffic congestion, so don't make it seem like the only possibilities are SBS and congestion pricing.

[DetSMART45]

Well like I've said before, I don't see any other alternatives that the can implement in the meantime.  Nobody wants congestion pricing, yet the roads are clogged beyond recognition.  That's the real problem here that drivers such as yourself want to sweep under the rug.  If that were addressed, perhaps modifications of SBS would be better than the all out approach.  Until congestion is dealt with in this city, SBS and any other service will be an attempt to improve service and is better than doing nothing at all.  

No ..... as I keep harping about, get MTA to run on time to get people out of their cars, which helps alleviate the problem in the first place.

 

Those people didn't just decide to go to the additional expense of car travel out of thin air.  It's because MTA doesn't GAF and has plenty of "reasonable" excuses at its fingertips, that they can sit back and do nothing.

 

You cannot HONESTLY tell me that alot of the "experts" at MTA (and to an extent NYCDOT) had never had any ideas as to how the systems would "max out" and what should be done if/when approaching that point.  That's part of their JOB.  And it's also to take steps to alleviate the problems along the way.  Remember at 2009 study -- NOTHING was done of significance to improve what they were seeing THEN.

 

Traffic problems have always existed, it's just that a whole lot of people who would be apt to ride public transport have opted not to because they cannot depend on it.  In reality, if you're going to spend 45 minutes in commute, why spend it crushed up against a groper or someone with an allergy to soap and water if it costs a bit more in another method?  AND, you can only end up bending your commute time so much before a breaking point.  <-- THIS is where I think a lot of the MTA's failures lie.

[JubaionBx12+SBS]

The concept of off-board payment of buses does well at limiting dwell time but is inefficient otherwise. For starters, it adds an extra step to the process of boarding a bus that in some cases offers an incentive for farebeating. As I got off the Bx12 this morning there was a lady rushing to board the bus I just off and as she's going to get her Metrocard to put into the machine a rider that got off just hands her a ticket so she can board the bus without missing it. Without off-board payment that lady just joins the line of riders waiting to board and pays at the front. For those who won't risk beating the fare to avoid missing a bus they will miss many buses because the bus pulled off while riders were at the machine. The former leads to some riders not having paid fares accounted for and the latter leads to people being annoyed at the service because buses are hanging them dry at stops. What is truly needed and something all routes can benefit from is a contactless payment system. That way riders can board from both (or all 3) doors and not stand around pulling trying to pull out a Metrocard or change. That is the most efficient way of limiting dwell times on buses and SBS is not needed for that. 

[B35 via Church]

You all do realize that MTA wants SBS on ALL of the highest capacity Limited routes right?? Possibly even off-board payment on others. Dwell times are getting to be totally ridiculous these days. Especially on the B46. The more I ride SBS routes, the more regular ones begin to annoy me during rush hours.

Of course they do.....

 

Well you're clearly anti-SBS... I think there are some good things to SBS, so I'd like to hear some pros regarding the service in your opinion...

I'ma pull a page out of the GothamBus playbook with this one...

 

He's not clearly anti-SBS.... He's only not anti-SBS when you point out just how anti-SBS he is.... LOL.

 

I don't use SBS often but it makes sense in that regard. Too many people seem to have a problem having their Metrocards ready in advance, and they wait there all of that time for the bus.  Makes no sense.

I don't use it often either; not because I despise the service, but I don't have much need for the routes that they run on....

 

I have not rode the Bx12 in a while now (been some years), and avoiding taking that route had zero to do with SBS.... Read enough of PaulRivera's posts & it gives a good glimpse into as to why I avoid utilizing the Bx12 - not even for busfanning purposes....

Anyway, what else, the M15 - I don't have a real use for that route; I suppose I could take it from when I'm around midtown (W. 30's) heading down to Chinatown on weekends, but I'm not walking from broadway to 2nd av just to ride SBS.... If the M15 ran on lex & the M103 (I'll spare a mini rant about that route for another time) ran down 2nd, then I would use the M15/SBS..... Only time I use the B44 these days when I get fed up with waiting for a B46 at Williamsburg Bridge Plz. (which isn't often)..... I'm not going to list every SBS route, but I think you get the point - I'm not going around purposely avoiding SBS buses, that's just stupid... That's like some foamer that refuses to take the , on the strength of abhorring R62a's....

 

The issue you mention, I see arguments (between pax) arise down at the Hub w/ the Bx41 SBS (usually between hotheaded/impatient latinas that understand the concept of off-fare payment, and someone else that doesn't).... IDC how good you might look, you aint goin be berating me like that.... Get enough crap with the attitudinal, kissing-teeth shit (and it's the way they do it too.... Some on here will understand/know what I'm talking about with that) here on the local/LTD Brooklyn routes that I take, albeit from old miserable ass OLD west-indian women instead..... Anyway, It's like enough riders on that 41 SBS STILL haven't gotten used to off-fare payment on that route yet..... Trying to stick metro's where fareboxes don't exist inside the bus.... Shit like that nullifies off-board payment - at the terminal station nonetheless.....

[B35 via Church]

The concept of off-board payment of buses does well at limiting dwell time but is inefficient otherwise. For starters, it adds an extra step to the process of boarding a bus that in some cases offers an incentive for farebeating. As I got off the Bx12 this morning there was a lady rushing to board the bus I just off and as she's going to get her Metrocard to put into the machine a rider that got off just hands her a ticket so she can board the bus without missing it. Without off-board payment that lady just joins the line of riders waiting to board and pays at the front. For those who won't risk beating the fare to avoid missing a bus they will miss many buses because the bus pulled off while riders were at the machine. The former leads to some riders not having paid fares accounted for and the latter leads to people being annoyed at the service because buses are hanging them dry at stops. What is truly needed and something all routes can benefit from is a contactless payment system. That way riders can board from both (or all 3) doors and not stand around pulling trying to pull out a Metrocard or change. That is the most efficient way of limiting dwell times on buses and SBS is not needed for that. 

That's not even a gripe/criticism of SBS of mine, but I have to say that this is the main real-time criticism of SBS from riders... Off board payment is great - except when the bus is either right there, or as you're running to catch a bus that's seconds away or something..... You have a choice - either you say f*** it & wait for the next bus, luck out & have someone hands you their receipt, plead to the driver and/or hop that he/she's nice/patient enough to wait for you as you're paying off-board, or of course, beat the fare.....

 

That situation happened to me at WBP w/ the B44... it was a day I had some TTK (time to kill) and wanted to take the longer B44 ride (over the B46) home.... Got off the B32, tried to run & dip my card in the machine & the bus pulled off... So I had a receipt I couldn't do anything with, as I was not waiting for the next B44 SBS; this was around 8pm IIRC, which was usually around the time the 7:30 B32 out of LIC would get to WBP.... Chalked it up as a loss & just got on the next 46 out..... I'm not relying on anyone giving me anything & I'm not farebeating.... I don't want ANY dealings with cops these days..... I don't even get the satisfaction of having "beat" the system like some people seem to; it's a risk I'm not willing to take... I'm not much of a risk taker (personality-wise) anyway......

[NY1635]

This would also make it easier to get to Gateway which can be a PITA sometimes since the B83 is so unreliable.

 

Not really, the B82 SBS is most likely to get stuck in traffic along the B83.

[B35 via Church]

Not really, the B82 SBS is most likely to get stuck in traffic along the B83.

I think his point was that it's easier for more people to get to the B82 than it is the B83.....

 

Putting it another way, the B82 has a much broader reach......

[BrooklynBus]

No ..... as I keep harping about, get MTA to run on time to get people out of their cars, which helps alleviate the problem in the first place.

 

Those people didn't just decide to go to the additional expense of car travel out of thin air. It's because MTA doesn't GAF and has plenty of "reasonable" excuses at its fingertips, that they can sit back and do nothing.

 

You cannot HONESTLY tell me that alot of the "experts" at MTA (and to an extent NYCDOT) had never had any ideas as to how the systems would "max out" and what should be done if/when approaching that point. That's part of their JOB. And it's also to take steps to alleviate the problems along the way. Remember at 2009 study -- NOTHING was done of significance to improve what they were seeing THEN.

 

Traffic problems have always existed, it's just that a whole lot of people who would be apt to ride public transport have opted not to because they cannot depend on it. In reality, if you're going to spend 45 minutes in commute, why spend it crushed up against a groper or someone with an allergy to soap and water if it costs a bit more in another method? AND, you can only end up bending your commute time so much before a breaking point. <-- THIS is where I think a lot of the MTA's failures lie.

I am not going to go into details here. I will just say that I recently met with MTA officials in charge with keeping the buses running on time and they are good people who actually do care. There are many reasons why reliability is so bad, but not caring is not one of them. If you PM me I can tell you more.

 

And to B35 via Church: You are much more anti-SBS than I am and you may have good reason for your beliefs.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

I am not going to go into details here. I will just say that I recently met with MTA officials in charge with keeping the buses running on time and they are good people who actually do care. There are many reasons why reliability is so bad, but not caring is not one of them. If you PM me I can tell you more.

 

And to B35 via Church: You are much more anti-SBS than I am and you may have good reason for your beliefs.

One of the reasons I suspect is this whole merging thing going on.  They want all operations done from one command center and that's a big problem.  These guys don't know what's going on half of the time and by the time they figure out there's been yet another change.  I had one of my B/O buddies complaining about this very thing.  Accident occurred...  Buses are stuck there for God knows how long and are now wayyyy behind schedule, so he's coming down (on time) and he calls it in.  Then they have to send someone over to the scene to confirm what he stated, and then they give the green light for detours.  By that time, the accident had already been cleared up, so now you have guys totally confused as to why they're on detour.  I really don't understand why they have all of this technology if they're not using it.  They should, in 2015, have access to real time info as to what is happening on the roads and be able to dispatch buses accordingly.

[BrooklynBus]

One of the reasons I suspect is this whole merging thing going on.  They want all operations done from one command center and that's a big problem.  These guys don't know what's going on half of the time and by the time they figure out there's been yet another change.  I had one of my B/O buddies complaining about this very thing.  Accident occurred...  Buses are stuck there for God knows how long and are now wayyyy behind schedule, so he's coming down (on time) and he calls it in.  Then they have to send someone over to the scene to confirm what he stated, and then they give the green light for detours.  By that time, the accident had already been cleared up, so now you have guys totally confused as to why they're on detour.  I really don't understand why they have all of this technology if they're not using it.  They should, in 2015, have access to real time info as to what is happening on the roads and be able to dispatch buses accordingly.

You should write to the person I told you about. I bet he will answer your questions. Enclose your phone number in case he would rather call you. He may also learn a thing or two from you.

[Via Garibaldi 8]

You should write to the person I told you about. I bet he will answer your questions. Enclose your phone number in case he would rather call you. He may also learn a thing or two from you.

Yeah I will in the next little bit.  I want to wait a bit to see how things play out that we discussed.