Department of Subways - Proposals/Ideas

[Armandito]

I agree that increased interlining generally decreases overall capacity and reliability, because trains that don't merge onto tracks when they're supposed to can generate cascading delays. Highway traffic is always bad during rush hour mainly because there's too much merging going on.

 

Distance is less of a factor than the number of stops, as well as the popularity of those stops. Delays often come when riders hold the doors and cause trains to stop for too long at the stations. From my experience, express trains making fewer stops are generally more reliable than local trains, except for the ones on the overcrowded lines which are always going to be delayed.

Exactly the case on the Lexington Avenue expresses, my least favorite trains in the system.

[bstar1]

exp run better during off peak hours.

[pringle5095]

I'd have the go along Culver in Brooklyn, so the can become the Culver Express, and so that Culver gets East Side service as well as Midtown service (and it would reduce the load on the coming from both Queens via the and Brooklyn via the ). I am also of the opinion that the current 15 trains per hour along Culver isn't enough. By running the express and local, you can effectively double the number of trains per hour running to Manhattan (15 currently; 15 and 15 under this proposal)

I would have the run from Rosedale (it would branch off from Jamaica Center and have it stop at 109 AV, Linden, Foch, Baisley, and Farmers Blvds,225 St, and Rosedale LIRR. The in my world would run along Archer AV and Queens Blvd to forest hills before using the super express to get to sunny side lirr yards. It then follows 63 St to 2 Av Subway where it would run express. It would then run from Houston along the 6 AV Line to Delancey Essex, then along Jamaica to Bway Junction, followed by a switch to the Canarsie line where it terminates at the Atlantic Av station. Please critique this.

 

 

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[Armandito]

I would have the run from Rosedale (it would branch off from Jamaica Center and have it stop at 109 AV, Linden, Foch, Baisley, and Farmers Blvds,225 St, and Rosedale LIRR. The in my world would run along Archer AV and Queens Blvd to forest hills before using the super express to get to sunny side lirr yards. It then follows 63 St to 2 Av Subway where it would run express. It would then run from Houston along the 6 AV Line to Delancey Essex, then along Jamaica to Bway Junction, followed by a switch to the Canarsie line where it terminates at the Atlantic Av station. Please critique this.

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You do realize there's not much capacity at Jamaica Center to run a second service on the upper level, and because of this, some rush hour trains instead go to and from 179th Street. You'd be better off just extending the to Rosedale, as originally proposed in the MTA's Program for Action in 1968.

[pringle5095]

You do realize there's not much capacity at Jamaica Center to run a second service on the upper level, and because of this, some rush hour trains instead go to and from 179th Street. You'd be better off just extending the to Rosedale, as originally proposed in the MTA's Program for Action in 1968.

I see. So what about my proposal, but instead it terminates at Forest Hills and goes to Rosedale?

 

 

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[CenSin]

You do realize there's not much capacity at Jamaica Center to run a second service on the upper level, and because of this, some rush hour trains instead go to and from 179th Street. You'd be better off just extending the to Rosedale, as originally proposed in the MTA's Program for Action in 1968.

That’s only true if the terminal remains as-is. If the line is extended to Rosedale, the new terminal will be able to turn trains as fast as any modern terminal.

[Armandito]

I see. So what about my proposal, but instead it terminates at Forest Hills and goes to Rosedale?

 

 

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I would reroute it to 179th Street instead.

[pringle5095]

I would reroute it to 179th Street instead.

Ok, to 179 St it is

 

 

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[Armandito]

I think a extension to Bedford Park Boulevard would help alleviate overcrowding on the in the Bronx. By the way, trains are already congested with tons of passengers transferring at 149th Street. All that's left is finding a place to connect the to the north of 135th Street...

[Union Tpke]

I like Andrew Lynch's plan:

 

 

Map detail showing rebuilt 149th St Junction and new 145 St station.

At 145th St in Harlem the 2 train peels off into the Bronx while the 3 terminates at 148th St. The 145th St station, due to the junction with the 2 train, could not be extended to fit longer train sets. At Grand Concourse the 5 merges with the 2 on a tight S-curve. A new alignment would remedy both bottlenecks. Beginning at 138th St at Lenox Ave the tracks of the 2/3 would drop down and run to a new station built below the current 145th St station which would be large enough for a full train set (The current station would still exist but only be used to connect trains to the 148th St Yards and the 148th St terminal would be closed to passengers except for the odd shuttle service). The new tunnel would swing under the Harlem River to 150th St where it would split with the 2 train connecting to the existing 149th-Grand Concourse station and the 3 train swinging up to merge with the 4 train under Franz Sigel Park. The 5 train merge would be rebuilt so it would occur between Grand Concourse and 3rd Ave stations so that the curve of the tunnel would allow for much faster/smoother merges. Service on the White Plains Rd Line (2/5 trains) would be sped up and the 3 train would allow for double the service on the Jerome Ave Line (4 train) up to Bedford Park Blvd-Lehman College where the 3 would terminate (the junction between the main line and yard tracks would also have to be rebuilt to eliminate grade crossings). Furthermore between 161st-Yankee Stadium and 167th St the track bed of the line expands where the 9th Ave elevated line once merged. This extra space would then be used for layup tracks so that 3 trains could terminate late night at Yankee Stadium. This 3/4 train pairing would mimic the 2/5 pairing and allow for service adjustments on the fly.

[Armandito]

I like Andrew Lynch's plan:

I would keep the junction at 149th Street.

[Union Tpke]

I would keep the junction at 149th Street.

 

I wouldn't. It delays service.

[Porter]

I would reroute it to 179th Street instead.

 

Does the demand along Hillside Avenue really warrant a extension beyond Forest Hills?

[Around the Horn]

Does the demand along Hillside Avenue really warrant a extension beyond Forest Hills?

This has less to do with ridership and more to do with capacity. The 71st Avenue relay is already at capacity (and it could be argued that it is over capacity because of the constant delays the fumigation and turnaround process causes) while 179th Street's capacity isn't even halfway used...

[Porter]

This has less to do with ridership and more to do with capacity. The 71st Avenue relay is already at capacity (and it could be argued that it is over capacity because of the constant delays the fumigation and turnaround process causes) while 179th Street's capacity isn't even halfway used...

 

That sounds like a pretty good reason, then. So I guess we have a consensus in this forum that the should run between Hanover Square and Jamaica–179th Street, while the should run between Hanover Square and Third Avenue–149th Street (with extensions below and above someday)?

[bobtehpanda]

Does the demand along Hillside Avenue really warrant a extension beyond Forest Hills?

 

Trains leave Kew Gardens SRO during the peak, so yes.

[Caelestor]

That sounds like a pretty good reason, then. So I guess we have a consensus in this forum that the should run between Hanover Square and Jamaica–179th Street, while the should run between Hanover Square and Third Avenue–149th Street (with extensions below and above someday)?

 

SAS should have 3 services, each running on 4 minute headways:

• running the full length of the line
• north of 63 St
•  south of 63 St

I am personally interested in a SAS Phase 3.5 that gets the  running between Woodside and Houston St - 2 Av ASAP, which should solve the overcrowding on the . The will get its relief iff the  reaches 179 St, allowing current riders to not transfer at Kew Gardens for Midtown East.

 

Terminating trains at Forest Hills, which is a bad terminal since the local tracks are split apart and no crossover exists, is not an option imo. 

[Armandito]

SAS should have 3 services, each running on 4 minute headways:

• running the full length of the line
• north of 63 St
• south of 63 St

I am personally interested in a SAS Phase 3.5 that gets the running between Woodside and Houston St - 2 Av ASAP, which should solve the overcrowding on the . The will get its relief iff the reaches 179 St, allowing current riders to not transfer at Kew Gardens for Midtown East.

 

Terminating trains at Forest Hills, which is a bad terminal since the local tracks are split apart and no crossover exists, is not an option imo.

My plan calls for 53rd Street trains to run express east of 71st Avenue with 63rd Street trains running local between that station and 179th Street. trains would terminate at Woodside during late nights, while trains run entirely local in Queens during that time ( trains will make all stops between 71st Avenue and Briarwood). Edited November 21, 2016 by Q44SBS

[CenSin]

SAS should have 3 services, each running on 4 minute headways:

• running the full length of the line
• north of 63 St
•  south of 63 St

Where do you terminate trains at the southern end of the route every 4 minutes? I don’t know about the current limitations of Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue, but the trains jam up every rush hour and I believe they are only running trains every 6 minutes. Occasionally, the jams stretch to Sheepshead Bay.

[Wallyhorse]

I like Andrew Lynch's plan:

 

At 145th St in Harlem the 2 train peels off into the Bronx while the 3 terminates at 148th St. The 145th St station, due to the junction with the 2 train, could not be extended to fit longer train sets. At Grand Concourse the 5 merges with the 2 on a tight S-curve. A new alignment would remedy both bottlenecks. Beginning at 138th St at Lenox Ave the tracks of the 2/3 would drop down and run to a new station built below the current 145th St station which would be large enough for a full train set (The current station would still exist but only be used to connect trains to the 148th St Yards and the 148th St terminal would be closed to passengers except for the odd shuttle service). The new tunnel would swing under the Harlem River to 150th St where it would split with the 2 train connecting to the existing 149th-Grand Concourse station and the 3 train swinging up to merge with the 4 train under Franz Sigel Park. The 5 train merge would be rebuilt so it would occur between Grand Concourse and 3rd Ave stations so that the curve of the tunnel would allow for much faster/smoother merges. Service on the White Plains Rd Line (2/5 trains) would be sped up and the 3 train would allow for double the service on the Jerome Ave Line (4 train) up to Bedford Park Blvd-Lehman College where the 3 would terminate (the junction between the main line and yard tracks would also have to be rebuilt to eliminate grade crossings). Furthermore between 161st-Yankee Stadium and 167th St the track bed of the line expands where the 9th Ave elevated line once merged. This extra space would then be used for layup tracks so that 3 trains could terminate late night at Yankee Stadium. This 3/4 train pairing would mimic the 2/5 pairing and allow for service adjustments on the fly.

Very interesting setup.  

 

You'd likely have to have a short (2-3 car) shuttle between 145th and 148th-Lenox Terminal operating at all times and also do such a new station at 145 in all likelihood with a mezzanine between the old and new stations so the new station can be easily accessed from either side of the existing station.

 

As for terminating the on the Jerome Line, I would think Bedford Park Boulevard would need to be rebuilt into a two-island platform station to accomplish a terminal there.  I would otherwise have the go with the to Woodlawn OR if possible, build a new extension of the Jerome line past the city limits into Yonkers, running mostly along I-87 with new stops possibly at East 233rd Street along with near the McKean Avenue exit on I-87 and a new terminal at Yonkers Raceway.   That can work.

Where do you terminate trains at the southern end of the route every 4 minutes? I don’t know about the current limitations of Coney Island–Stillwell Avenue, but the trains jam up every rush hour and I believe they are only running trains every 6 minutes. Occasionally, the jams stretch to Sheepshead Bay.

Perhaps you could have some trains terminate at Sheepshead Bay during peak hours if it's a big problem terminating all of the (Q)'s at Coney Island (with perhaps new crossovers built into Sheepshead Bay to accommodate such). 

Edited November 21, 2016 by Wallyhorse

[Porter]

Just out of curiosity, how is it that we've all come to a (heretofore unspoken) consensus that the third service on the Second Avenue Line should be dubbed the and not another retired letter like H/K or unused letter like P/U/Y? I haven't heard one argument to the contrary, nor do I feel that any other letter would be appropriate (although U or Y could have a reasonable argument)?

[Around the Horn]

It's rather simple...

and are pretty much next to each other in the alphabet. The tries to keep the letters of the services on a Manhattan trunk close to each other in the alphabet (ex. ). The only exception to the rule is the . Also the has unofficially retired I because it could look like a , U because " You should take the U" could be pretty confusing and P because potty humor...

 

H is the internal designation for the Rockaway Park Shuttle (and the 42nd Street Shuttle is internally the 0, for those of you keeping score at home)

[bobtehpanda]

It's rather simple...

and are pretty much next to each other in the alphabet. The tries to keep the letters of the services on a Manhattan trunk close to each other in the alphabet (ex. ). The only exception to the rule is the . Also the has unofficially retired I because it could look like a , U because " You should take the U" could be pretty confusing and P because potty humor...

 

H is the internal designation for the Rockaway Park Shuttle (and the 42nd Street Shuttle is internally the 0, for those of you keeping score at home)

 

(P) isn't retired, it's been considered before for a Penn shuttle in case the LIRR were to ever strike.

[Porter]

The only exception to the rule is the .

 

and are pretty far apart, as are the and .

[P3F]

As are the lines.