Department of Subways - Proposals/Ideas

[Lawrence St]

First post of 2024 in here!

 

This is how I would tremendously improve B Division service:

service now runs on weekends to/from 2nd Av.

service is extended to/from Lefferts Blvd. Two of the Rock Park trips will now be done by the .

service now runs between Bergen St and Kings Highway.

service on weekends, evenings, and late nights will be extended to/from 179th St (F), timed to start after the last leaves Forest Hills. The reason why service will run to 179th St is so the and can rotate fleet.

weekend service will run to Broad St. To alleviate rush hour congestion on the , select trips will begin out of Rockaway Parkway.

service is extended to/from Gravesend-86th St via Sea Beach Express (AM-->/<--PM).

In all honesty, I would swap the Manhattan service between the and the to make it easier. Have the  run to Forest Hills and have the  go to Broad St.

[darkstar8983]

On 12/13/2023 at 11:11 PM, MTA Researcher said:

At last we get a WallyHorse supporter, yay! 

Which option is best?

option 1:

 via 53rd St,  via 63rd

option 2:

Assuming  OR  only exist to make room for ;

  via 53rd,  via 63rd - 6 Av Exp

Someone in this forum told me something interesting about option 2; they said that in such proposal  alone coming from CPW into 6 Av would merge with  alone coming from 63rd St. Meanwhile  are now free of lag, something that wouldn’t be possible with option 1. I assume that hypothesis in scenario around 5 Av 53 st  delay behind  with the wait of  crossing into Rockefeller Ctr.

 

I mean…. Is this really true? Am I missing something?

 must get the boot, as an Astorian I only take  express, when MTA crew say  leaves first; I say ‘I want  express’ only.

so the  would be a Queens Blvd Local / 63 St-6 Av Express, then Brighton Express to Brighton Beach, and then the  could be the Brighton Local from Stillwell Av, through the Manhattan Bridge to Broadway Express to 96 St-2 Av? Sounds like you just want the  on Queens Blvd at that point (via 63 St/Queens Blvd Local), and keep the  as is. 

As for CPW, you'd need to run additional local service on 8 Av (Im assuming a  train of sorts) between Bedford Park Blvd (rush hours) or 145 St and World Trade Center, with a train capacity of only 5 trains per hour due to the limited capacity of World Trade Center. and where would the  go? or would the  be the local via Central Park West, then 8 Av local to West 4 St, then back to its regular route to Middle Village.

[darkstar8983]

2 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

First post of 2024 in here!

 

This is how I would tremendously improve B Division service:

service now runs on weekends to/from 2nd Av.

service is extended to/from Lefferts Blvd. Two of the Rock Park trips will now be done by the .

service now runs between Bergen St and Kings Highway.

service on weekends, evenings, and late nights will be extended to/from 179th St (F), timed to start after the last leaves Forest Hills. The reason why service will run to 179th St is so the and can rotate fleet.

weekend service will run to Broad St. To alleviate rush hour congestion on the , select trips will begin out of Rockaway Parkway.

service is extended to/from Gravesend-86th St via Sea Beach Express (AM-->/<--PM).

In all honesty, I would swap the Manhattan service between the and the to make it easier. Have the  run to Forest Hills and have the  go to Broad St.

The  from 145 St to 2 Av would be useless. I'd run the  the full route from 145 St to Brighton Beach (even if every 12 minutes). But running the  from 96 St/2 Av to Brighton Beach (via 6 Av) could be something. 

The  to Lefferts Blvd would lead to immediate backlash from Ozone Park residents, and also force transit to terminate half of the  trips (the previous Lefferts Blvd ones) at Euclid Av in its place, since the Rockaways do not need  train service THAT frequently. Or maybe end those "Euclid Av  trains" at Howard Beach, but even then those trains would carry air. 

The  should be discontinued since any addition to the  trips means a trip-by-trip decrease in local  service due to limited capacity elsewhere along the line and limited car availability.

The  to 71 Av or 179 St would carry air at best, and at worst would not run at all. Too much construction on Queens Blvd. Remember that the last full year the  was assigned to 71 Av service was in 2009, and it only ran to 71 Av THREE out of 52 weekends. There is a reason why the  ends service on Queens Blvd at 9PM (8:15PM last trip out of 71 Av); so that the  can share tracks. The new schedule makes the local after the last scheduled  trip Manhattan-bound and BEFORE the last 71 Av-bound  trains.

Whats everyones obsession with changing the  to a shuttle? (sending it back down Nassau St, and even taking it off the Myrtle Av Line to be a supplement to the ?

Sending the  to downtown Brooklyn would carry air, just like the  did. Switching the  trains so that the  runs a route from Jamaica Center (lower level) to 71 Av would be an almost 2-hour local route (45 minutes from Parsons/Archer to Essex St, then 45 more minutes from Broadway-Lafayette St to 71 Av, then relays PAST 71 Av). This is definitely a nonstarter.

 

 

[darkstar8983]

If we want service improvements, I would do:

Weekdays:

 - More service along the north section of the line (keep the 137 St trips), but run service out of the Bronx more frequently.

 - All trips to Flatbush Av

 - more even headways

 - All trips to Utica Av

 - All trips from 238 St to Bowling Green only / All trips from Dyre Av to Flatbush Av (or flip the south terminals for each of the  train branches.

 - No change

 - All Mets-Willets Point trips end at 111 St (especially if they're scheduled to return to the yard)

 - Reschedule service to make sure that main service between Manhattan and Rockaway Blvd runs more evenly 

 - Expand rush hour service span to Bedford Park Blvd to 5:30AM to 9:30AM (AM rush departures) and 3:45PM to 7PM (PM rush departures). 

 - More frequent rush hour service - every 7-8 minutes during the AM rush.

 - No change

 - No change

 - Removed , but run more rush hour trips to/from Kings Highway or Church Av, to quickly turn around and provide northbound service without having to go to Stillwell Av

 - Service frequency improved to every 6 minutes

  - rush hour skip stop service expanded to start at 6:45AM until 8:30AM (departures from Jamaica Center), and 4:30PM to 6:20PM (PM rush hour departures from Broad St). Keep  service every 8 minutes until about 8PM after the  is done

 - No change

 - Rush hour service frequency increased to every 6 minutes 

 - More rush hour  train service to Astoria and shift one additional  to 2 Av service for every additional  train added

 - more frequent service (every 7 minutes departing 96 St starting at 6:30AM until 7:30AM, then every 6 minutes until 8:10AM, then every 4-5 minutes until 9:30AM).

 - Moree rush hour service to/from Brooklyn peak.

 

Weekends:

 - Every 7.5 minutes again between Rockaway Blvd and 207 St (every 15 minutes during busy times to each branch) - no change to the .

 - run service every 12 minutes (from 7:30AM to 8PM) between Brighton Beach and 47-50 Sts/Rockefeller Center, then via the  to 96 St (reduce  to every 12 minutes).

 - Every 10 minutes (no change to the  frequency)

 - Every 12 minutes - send all trains thru 6 Av to 47-50 Sts-Rockefeller Center, then via the  to 96 St/2 Av.

 - Every 12 minutes (assuming the  is added to run to 96 St/2 Av as a supplement to the )

 

[MTA Researcher]

30 minutes ago, darkstar8983 said:

the  could be the Brighton Local from Stillwell Av, through the Manhattan Bridge to Broadway Express to 96 St-2 Av? 

Actually no… if we choose  to 205 instead of  ; the   is  absorbed by  

CPW could look like this;

  only to Lefferts with all else as is

 205 - CI: back to pre 2001 route

  BPB - WTC

Blue M/  168 - Metro Av

 CPW Express  CPW Lcl

Broadway would look like this:

Option 1 (my least favorite)

  Broadway Expeess/ 4 Av Express  via Sea Beach and  via West End

Both would go to 2 Av.

Option 2 (the ideal way)

 Astoria- CI : Broadway/4 Av Express - Sea Beach

 71 Av - Bay Ridge: QBL Local - Broadway/4 Av Express stopping at 45 and 53 with new switches south of 36.

  96 - CI via Broadway/4 Av Local - West End

Option 2 is ideal for Queens Folks as this gives Astoria and QBL (Densely Populated) direct access to Manhattan and Brooklyn Express. Plus Bay Ridge would be the biggest winner here as they now have Direct Access into express service. Of course the 57/7 flip must happen to avoid conflicts.

8 Av looks like this:

 express  local 

As  now runs to Lefferts only;  goes to Far Rockaway. So  8 Av/Fulton Express with  going Fulton Local… but until  emerges;  is stuck going to Far Rock and Lefferts and  ends at Euclid via Fulton Local

6 Av looks like this

  express  local

 is well pre 2001 same with  except it is extended past 21 st Queensbridge to 71 Av.

 

crazy how one thing leads to another…

 

Be honest are my ideas really crazy? If yes; how about the MTA on R211 open gangway waste of  money because gangways can’t go express? See article here.

 

Hopefully I didn’t come off as rude… maybe I presume too much.

 

[zacster]

I can see someone at the head of the MTA go ballistic on whoever decided the open gangway cars can't go express.  They spend time and money on this, show it to the public as the future, and then have some operations people that didn't like them sabotage the program.  It's already an embarrassment in the news.

[MTA Researcher]

3 hours ago, zacster said:

I can see someone at the head of the MTA go ballistic on whoever decided the open gangway cars can't go express.  They spend time and money on this, show it to the public as the future, and then have some operations people that didn't like them sabotage the program.  It's already an embarrassment in the news.

I guess I’m not that preposterous after all… 

[Lawrence St]

20 hours ago, darkstar8983 said:

The  from 145 St to 2 Av would be useless. I'd run the  the full route from 145 St to Brighton Beach (even if every 12 minutes). But running the  from 96 St/2 Av to Brighton Beach (via 6 Av) could be something. 

The  to Lefferts Blvd would lead to immediate backlash from Ozone Park residents, and also force transit to terminate half of the  trips (the previous Lefferts Blvd ones) at Euclid Av in its place, since the Rockaways do not need  train service THAT frequently. Or maybe end those "Euclid Av  trains" at Howard Beach, but even then those trains would carry air. 

The  should be discontinued since any addition to the  trips means a trip-by-trip decrease in local  service due to limited capacity elsewhere along the line and limited car availability.

The  to 71 Av or 179 St would carry air at best, and at worst would not run at all. Too much construction on Queens Blvd. Remember that the last full year the  was assigned to 71 Av service was in 2009, and it only ran to 71 Av THREE out of 52 weekends. There is a reason why the  ends service on Queens Blvd at 9PM (8:15PM last trip out of 71 Av); so that the  can share tracks. The new schedule makes the local after the last scheduled  trip Manhattan-bound and BEFORE the last 71 Av-bound  trains.

Whats everyones obsession with changing the  to a shuttle? (sending it back down Nassau St, and even taking it off the Myrtle Av Line to be a supplement to the ?

Sending the  to downtown Brooklyn would carry air, just like the  did. Switching the  trains so that the  runs a route from Jamaica Center (lower level) to 71 Av would be an almost 2-hour local route (45 minutes from Parsons/Archer to Essex St, then 45 more minutes from Broadway-Lafayette St to 71 Av, then relays PAST 71 Av). This is definitely a nonstarter.

 

 

1. It's not useless, it's to provide a secondary local on CPW and 6th Av. Brighton does not need express service on weekends.

2. How do I word this nicely - I really don't care what type of backlash the  extension would get. It's the most logical way to end the confusion on the  line and make service better across the  line. Those former Lefferts Blvd trips can go to Howard Beach or Far Rockaway.

3. I don't think it should be. The current version as it is seems pointless. At least a southward extension would help.

4. I disagree. Having the  take the 's place as the Queens Blvd Local would actually gain ridership and generate new transfer points at Court Sq, Lormier St and Hoyt. And eventually when CBTC is finished, QBL won't be shut down continuously which will allow the  to run. This also allows the  to become 10 cars instead of 8 cars since it will share fleet with the .

5. The weekend  as it is now is a shuttle! Extending it to Broad St at least opens up more transfers, and the rush hour  from Rockaway Parkway to Forest Hills takes the load off the .

6. Again, the  extension is to supply a secondary 4th Av local. I would send it to Bay Ridge, but it can't handle all those extra trains. And I want to add more local service between 36th St and 59th St, which is why it goes to Gravesend instead of Bay Pkwy .

[darkstar8983]

3 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

1. It's not useless, it's to provide a secondary local on CPW and 6th Av. Brighton does not need express service on weekends.

2. How do I word this nicely - I really don't care what type of backlash the  extension would get. It's the most logical way to end the confusion on the  line and make service better across the  line. Those former Lefferts Blvd trips can go to Howard Beach or Far Rockaway.

3. I don't think it should be. The current version as it is seems pointless. At least a southward extension would help.

4. I disagree. Having the  take the 's place as the Queens Blvd Local would actually gain ridership and generate new transfer points at Court Sq, Lormier St and Hoyt. And eventually when CBTC is finished, QBL won't be shut down continuously which will allow the  to run. This also allows the  to become 10 cars instead of 8 cars since it will share fleet with the .

5. The weekend  as it is now is a shuttle! Extending it to Broad St at least opens up more transfers, and the rush hour  from Rockaway Parkway to Forest Hills takes the load off the .

6. Again, the  extension is to supply a secondary 4th Av local. I would send it to Bay Ridge, but it can't handle all those extra trains. And I want to add more local service between 36th St and 59th St, which is why it goes to Gravesend instead of Bay Pkwy .

Overall valid arguments. In no particular order.

1. I would have proposed the  be local in Brooklyn (with the  and  every 12 minutes), especially since lately the  has had its weekend service reduced due to construction on Broadway and the Manhattan Bridge south tracks. And if the  extension on weekends idea is passed then definitely send the  to Central Park West to supplement the , even if the  only runs from 9AM to 7PM.

2. My only concerns for the  extension are because of ridership gains, especially east of 71 Av, and the constant construction. I would also love to see the  back on Queens Blvd so that way the line has at least 3 services all times.

weekdays:  (  express ) 

evenings and weekends:  (  express )

late nights:  (  express )

3. Extending the weekend  past Essex St should be thru its regular weekday route, even if it doesn’t go all the way to 71 Av. Maybe end it at 96 St/2 Av.

4. The  has been going local more often than not on weekends on 4 Av, maybe it should be made permanent. As for weekdays, the s rush hour frequency needs to be maintained for a longer period of time during weekdays.

5. the  to Canarsie would not siphon much ridership off the  since most ridership is west of Myrtle Av.

- on weekends all the affected routes can keep their 12 minute headways since most of them would now be supplemented with weekend service on the .

Edited January 26 by darkstar8983

[MTA Researcher]

19 minutes ago, darkstar8983 said:

The  has been going local more often than not on weekends on 4 Av, maybe it should be made permanent.

Oh heck no… sorry for being a little profane with heck but  4 Av Local is asinine. Put the  on the local track.  going 3-borough local  should never be thing… that’s  train 2.0. 

[darkstar8983]

1 minute ago, MTA Researcher said:

Oh heck no… sorry for being a little profane with heck but  4 Av Local is asinine. Put the  on the local track.  going 3-borough local  should never be thing… that’s  train 2.0. 

The  local in Brooklyn could be useful to provide 24/7 service to 6 Av at DeKalb Av and make the  less interlined 

[Lawrence St]

1 hour ago, darkstar8983 said:

Overall valid arguments. In no particular order.

1. I would have proposed the  be local in Brooklyn (with the  and  every 12 minutes), especially since lately the  has had its weekend service reduced due to construction on Broadway and the Manhattan Bridge south tracks. And if the  extension on weekends idea is passed then definitely send the  to Central Park West to supplement the , even if the  only runs from 9AM to 7PM.

2. My only concerns for the  extension are because of ridership gains, especially east of 71 Av, and the constant construction. I would also love to see the  back on Queens Blvd so that way the line has at least 3 services all times.

weekdays:  (  express ) 

evenings and weekends:  (  express )

late nights:  (  express )

3. Extending the weekend  past Essex St should be thru its regular weekday route, even if it doesn’t go all the way to 71 Av. Maybe end it at 96 St/2 Av.

4. The  has been going local more often than not on weekends on 4 Av, maybe it should be made permanent. As for weekdays, the s rush hour frequency needs to be maintained for a longer period of time during weekdays.

5. the  to Canarsie would not siphon much ridership off the  since most ridership is west of Myrtle Av.

- on weekends all the affected routes can keep their 12 minute headways since most of them would now be supplemented with weekend service on the .

Valid arguments.

1. Absolutely not to having the  be 4th Av local at all times. The line is already as long as it is, and there needs to be some type of Broadway express service from 4th Av.

2. I agree with your Queens Blvd proposal. I would however run the  at a special odd frequency since headways won't be even along QBL otherwise, which is why I also proposed it running to 179th St.

3. If your going to run the  on weekends then there's no point in having the run there as well. Either run the  to 2nd or run the  to 145th St.

4. On the topic of the , if there's any room to add in more  trains by ending them at 2nd Av, I would also propose that.

5. On the topic of the , I weirdly propose attempting a skip-stop program on it to see if it actually balances ridership west of Myrtle Av.

[Reptile]

Since it's been a topic of discussion that the as proposed won't have many connections, here is a realistic proposal on how to give it easy and effective connections to Eastern and Southern Brooklyn while keeping the route as originally proposed.

After the Hanover Sq station, located at William and Wall streets, the will turn east at the Coenties Slip and run under 55 Water Street and/or the memorial.

Then it will go underwater in a new tunnel to Brooklyn, and it will reach land under Remsen Street. This is right in between Montague St where the runs and Joralemon St where the run. There will be a new station in Brooklyn at Remsen and Court St for the to transfer to the at Borough Hall.

service will finally run under Boreum Pl to Schermerhorn St, where it will connect to the unused Court St Shuttle tracks. This allows the to connect to the without destroying the transit museum.

This will provide numerous new connections as riders coming from 4th Av and Eastern Parkway to Manhattan can now have a transfer to 2nd Av before leaving Brooklyn. Since the will already have access to the at Grand St, the connection may come in handy for riders. The will already have a transfer at Houston St/2 Av.

So with this one connection, virtually all of Brooklyn's subways gain access to the SAS, hopefully setting aside the fears regarding its integration with the rest of the network.

[Wallyhorse]

56 minutes ago, Reptile said:

Since it's been a topic of discussion that the as proposed won't have many connections, here is a realistic proposal on how to give it easy and effective connections to Eastern and Southern Brooklyn while keeping the route as originally proposed.

After the Hanover Sq station, located at William and Wall streets, the will turn east at the Coenties Slip and run under 55 Water Street and/or the memorial.

Then it will go underwater in a new tunnel to Brooklyn, and it will reach land under Remsen Street. This is right in between Montague St where the runs and Joralemon St where the run. There will be a new station in Brooklyn at Remsen and Court St for the to transfer to the at Borough Hall.

service will finally run under Boreum Pl to Schermerhorn St, where it will connect to the unused Court St Shuttle tracks. This allows the to connect to the without destroying the transit museum.

This will provide numerous new connections as riders coming from 4th Av and Eastern Parkway to Manhattan can now have a transfer to 2nd Av before leaving Brooklyn. Since the will already have access to the at Grand St, the connection may come in handy for riders. The will already have a transfer at Houston St/2 Av.

So with this one connection, virtually all of Brooklyn's subways gain access to the SAS, hopefully setting aside the fears regarding its integration with the rest of the network.

This is a good way to do it.  Mine is similar except it would go under Schermerhorn Street on a level lower than the Transit Museum (with potentially a stop near Court Street below the Transit Museum) and then ram up to connect to the existing unused tracks near Hoyt-Schermerhorn and then operate as the Fulton Street Local to Euclid (extended late nights to Lefferts to replace the late-night  there.  This would allow the and to both operate as Fulton Express trains with the replacing the to Lefferts and the  likely on a 4-3 split between Far Rockaway and Rockaway Park, eliminating the need for the Rockaway Park / except perhaps late nights or late nights with the using the old round-robin route to cover both Far Rockaway and Rockaway Park.  

Going under Remsen Street likely makes more sense if it allows for transfers to the  and ( late nights) at Borough Hall from such as new line).  It would serve the same purpose as my plan as it would allow the and to both run as Fulton express lines at all times ( except late nights with the to Lefferts at those times). 

[MTA Researcher]

5 hours ago, Reptile said:

Since it's been a topic of discussion that the as proposed won't have many connections, here is a realistic proposal on how to give it easy and effective connections to Eastern and Southern Brooklyn while keeping the route as originally proposed.

After the Hanover Sq station, located at William and Wall streets, the will turn east at the Coenties Slip and run under 55 Water Street and/or the memorial.

Then it will go underwater in a new tunnel to Brooklyn, and it will reach land under Remsen Street. This is right in between Montague St where the runs and Joralemon St where the run. There will be a new station in Brooklyn at Remsen and Court St for the to transfer to the at Borough Hall.

service will finally run under Boreum Pl to Schermerhorn St, where it will connect to the unused Court St Shuttle tracks. This allows the to connect to the without destroying the transit museum.

This will provide numerous new connections as riders coming from 4th Av and Eastern Parkway to Manhattan can now have a transfer to 2nd Av before leaving Brooklyn. Since the will already have access to the at Grand St, the connection may come in handy for riders. The will already have a transfer at Houston St/2 Av.

So with this one connection, virtually all of Brooklyn's subways gain access to the SAS, hopefully setting aside the fears regarding its integration with the rest of the network.

Interesting! I like this idea. So to supplement it; I would have  run from 207 - Lefferts and  from 205 - Far Rockaway/Rockaway Park.

 

Late Night  would be between Euclid - Lefferts and  extended to 207 during that period. So  in Late Nights would be full time  205 - The Rockaways via CPW/8 Av Express. It can’t go Fulton  street Express at Nights because  terminates at Euclid Av’s express tracks as a Lefferts shuttle. Late Night  ends at Hoyt Schimmernhorn Streets.

To Summarize line pattern is as follows:

 Days: 207 - Lefferts: CPW/8 Av/ Fulton St Exp

Nights: Lefferts Blvd Shuttle 

 Weekdays: 205 - Far Rock/Rock Pk: Concourse Peak Direction Express - CPW/8 Av/Fulton St Exp

Weekends: via Concourse Local

Nights: Concourse Local- Fulton St Local

 extended to 207 during Nights

As for CPW/50 St connection… well  CPW local to 7 Av/53rd for  could work out.

 

[TDL]

On 3/10/2024 at 1:45 PM, Wallyhorse said:

This is a good way to do it.  Mine is similar except it would go under Schermerhorn Street on a level lower than the Transit Museum (with potentially a stop near Court Street below the Transit Museum) and then ram up to connect to the existing unused tracks near Hoyt-Schermerhorn and then operate as the Fulton Street Local to Euclid (extended late nights to Lefferts to replace the late-night  there.  This would allow the and to both operate as Fulton Express trains with the replacing the to Lefferts and the  likely on a 4-3 split between Far Rockaway and Rockaway Park, eliminating the need for the Rockaway Park / except perhaps late nights or late nights with the using the old round-robin route to cover both Far Rockaway and Rockaway Park.  

Going under Remsen Street likely makes more sense if it allows for transfers to the  and ( late nights) at Borough Hall from such as new line).  It would serve the same purpose as my plan as it would allow the and to both run as Fulton express lines at all times ( except late nights with the to Lefferts at those times). 

Or just connect Fulton Local to Montague. There's spare capacity anyway. 

[Wallyhorse]

1 hour ago, TDL said:

Or just connect Fulton Local to Montague. There's spare capacity anyway. 

Not the way I would do it because of the other thing I would do, move the  to Nassau and make it brown (doing the necessary work to re-open the former northbound platforms at Cana Street and Bowery) that I have noted many times elsewhere.   

[TDL]

39 minutes ago, Wallyhorse said:

Not the way I would do it because of the other thing I would do, move the  to Nassau and make it brown (doing the necessary work to re-open the former northbound platforms at Cana Street and Bowery) that I have noted many times elsewhere.   

Yes. Many many MANY times. If you REALLY want to do that, have your  run from Bay Ridge-Broadway Junction, and then have the real  (which we will call ) run from Astoria-Euclid Ave. Save the cost of building a whole new tunnel.

[TDL]

Just now, TDL said:

Yes. Many many MANY times. If you REALLY want to do that, have your  run from Bay Ridge-Broadway Junction, and then have the real  (which we will call ) run from Astoria-Euclid Ave. Save the cost of building a whole new tunnel.

And leave 2nd Ave as is, with an extension from Hanover Sq to South Ferry

[Lawrence St]

Why not just connect the  to the Second Av subway via the transit musuem and a new tunnel and have it run 125th-Court Sq via Hoyt?

[Theli11]

1 minute ago, Lawrence St said:

Why not just connect the  to the Second Av subway via the transit musuem and a new tunnel and have it run 125th-Court Sq via Hoyt?

Like an East River loop route? Not sure if anyone is incentivized to take the  when you can just take... almost any East River route for faster service.

This route only benefits you if you need to go from East Harlem to Clinton Hill/Bed-Stuy. There's better routes.

41 minutes ago, TDL said:

And leave 2nd Ave as is, with an extension from Hanover Sq to South Ferry

South Ferry doesn't need more trains considering the fact that 5 lines are already in the area, I think Brooklyn is the best route for the SAS

[Vulturious]

50 minutes ago, Lawrence St said:

Why not just connect the  to the Second Av subway via the transit musuem and a new tunnel and have it run 125th-Court Sq via Hoyt?

As much as I wouldn't mind the  going into Manhattan, it's not possible from Hoyt-Schermerhorn unless you reconstruct the tunnel in the process. Originally, the IND was planning on having Crosstown be part of a loop that would've had the 53 St tunnle be a 4 track tunnel rather than the current 2 track tunel. I'm of the opinion they would've also had IND Jay St portion be 6 tracks wide similar to Hoyt-Schermerhorn Sts layout. This obviously didn't happen because of the Fulton St line coming into the picture after, the IND were rather ambitious people especially how extravagant some of their proposals were along with what we currently see today so it's not far-fetched to think they didn't do something because they just didn't have the finances for such.

Anyway, back on topic, not sure how possible it would be to run the  into Manhattan without being forced to reconstruct the  tunnels in the process. It would definitely be quite expensive to pull off and the incentive to do so isn't that big unfortunately.

[Reptile]

4 hours ago, Wallyhorse said:

Not the way I would do it because of the other thing I would do, move the  to Nassau and make it brown (doing the necessary work to re-open the former northbound platforms at Canal Street and Bowery) that I have noted many times elsewhere.   

Alternatively, south of Grand St,  some 2nd Av tracks could be connected to the former south tracks on the Manhattan bridge that go straight to Chambers St, which would open up the as transfers plus the other trains from my previous post (the station at Borough Hall). That would be nearly the entire subway system connected to SAS with just one transfer. With a Second Avenue route running down to Broad St (the would terminate at Chambers), it could also run under the Montague tunnel to supplement 4th Av local service, maybe recreating the 's route in Brooklyn but I doubt it would have that high ridership there.

[Wallyhorse]

5 hours ago, TDL said:

Yes. Many many MANY times. If you REALLY want to do that, have your  run from Bay Ridge-Broadway Junction, and then have the real  (which we will call ) run from Astoria-Euclid Ave. Save the cost of building a whole new tunnel.

Not enough capacity for three full-time lines or that would be very appealing.  That's why I have it terminate at Canal Street on weekdays and weekday evenings, and then nights and weekends such an  is extended to Metropolitan Avenue to absorb the night and weekend shuttles.  As this  would be based out of East New York, there would be in-service yard runs from and to Broadway Junction that would be scheduled each day. 

My plan would be this, aside from this :

runs 71st-Continental to Whitehall Street, with some peak-hour trains ending and beginning at Canal Street (Tunnel level)

New "Yellow " runs from 9th Avenue or Bay Parkway on the  to Astoria to replace the there.  This would run as a 4th Avenue local via Montague to replace the  between Court Street and Canal Street for those wanting lower Manhattan from Broadway and would run at a maximum of 6-7 TPH.   

[Wallyhorse]

2 minutes ago, Wallyhorse said:

Not enough capacity for three full-time lines or that would be very appealing.  That's why I have it terminate at Canal Street on weekdays and weekday evenings, and then nights and weekends such an  is extended to Metropolitan Avenue to absorb the night and weekend shuttles.  As this  would be based out of East New York, there would be in-service yard runs from and to Broadway Junction that would be scheduled each day. 

My plan would be this, aside from this :

runs 71st-Continental to Whitehall Street, with some peak-hour trains ending and beginning at Canal Street (Tunnel level)

New "Yellow " runs from 9th Avenue or Bay Parkway on the  to Astoria to replace the there.  This would run as a 4th Avenue local via Montague to replace the  between Court Street and Canal Street for those wanting lower Manhattan from Broadway and would run at a maximum of 6-7 TPH.   

Accidentally hit send before I finished, resuming:

would run eventually from 125/Lenox or further west to Euclid Avenue, extended overnights to Lefferts Boulevard.  This would run via a new Remsen Street tunnel from likely Hanover Square, which would in Brooklyn have a stop around Court Street that would include transfers to the and current ( late nights) and as I would eventually have it my version of the  and "Yellow " at Court.  I would be looking to build this to at least Chatham Square even ahead of Phase 3 to it at least is running to lower Manhattan.  It would then come in on the unused local track at Hoyt-Schermerhorn and run as the Fulton Local.  In Manhattan, Seaport if possible also a transfer point between the and all trains in the Fulton complex,

and would both run express on Fulton at all times ( except late nights) to Lefferts (as noted replaced by the late nights) while the  is on a 4/3 split between Far Rockaway and Rockaway Park with either the only operating late nights from Broad Channel-Rockaway Park OR the running as a 6 TPH line late nights, equally split between Far Rockaway and Rockaway Park so one of the two branches runs every 20 minutes.