Department of Subways - Proposals/Ideas

[darkstar8983]

6 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

Here's an idea:

Extend M track at Marcy Ave to continue onto the bridge tracks, and have express trains skip Marcy Ave. Marcy Ave tends to be a huge bottle neck with slow speeds and it would be better overall to have it skip.

The time savings would be negligible due to timers on the curve. However PM Rush  service should be local until Myrtle Av so that way the  don’t cross over each other twice in the span of 5 stops 

[LGA Link N Train]

Why not just move Marcy to the West above the Bus Terminal, easing the curve in the process. 

J3-4 Track can be extended to where 140/141 Signals are located with 3 new Switches in the Area. J1 and J2 can be Modified to have Wider curves and 2 new platforms will go in between the 3 tracks. 
 

All  Facilities within the area (i.e. the Bus Terminal and the Station) can be consolidated into 1 General area. 863 and 865 Switches might become redundant in this proposal now that I think of it…

[zacster]

Oops, this post was an answer to a comment from a few pages ago, never mind.

Edited December 11, 2023 by zacster

[Lawrence St]

Looking at a track map, how hard would it be to extend the north along the Bay Ridge Branch to just around Jackson Heights and build a new tunnel into 74th St, allowing the  to become a full loop?

[Vulturious]

4 hours ago, Lawrence St said:

Looking at a track map, how hard would it be to extend the north along the Bay Ridge Branch to just around Jackson Heights and build a new tunnel into 74th St, allowing the  to become a full loop?

Even without the IBX, it's impossible. Also, why?

[ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ]

On 12/12/2023 at 7:16 PM, Vulturious said:

Even without the IBX, it's impossible. Also, why?

I feel like an  train loop would be a navigational nightmare, especially for tourists. And on weekends when there's services changes, it would just become more confusing.

[ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ]

After so many bad experiences, I've become increasingly a supporter of bifurcating the  such that one  runs from Whitehall St South Ferry - Forest Hills, and the other  runs from Canal St (on Nassau Line) to Bay Ridge 95 St. I think part of the reason  has spotty headways is because there are too many merges and Chokepoints. This about it:

1. Forest Hills is not a great Terminal Station. Especially before when it was shared with  things could get backed up

2. Merging from 60th St tunnel onto QBLVD with . 60th St tunnel has 3 services, and the whole system of merging onto QBLVD with the  is pretty complex and notorious for causing backups, especially cause in normal times, the  itself also has to deal with the , and the  has to deal with the .

3.  train crossover at 34th St. Can easily force an  train to wait a couple extra minutes.

4.  terminating at Whitehall St. There have been multiples times I've been in a northbound  waiting for the  to leave (I don't understand why it can't just enter the station cause  only uses middle track to terminate), but can make the  wait like 5 minutes.

5. DeKalb Junction. Even though in normal service the  is technically grade-separated from everything else, it's still a slow junction and often times  will run local which adds another merge point

All this adds up to quite a lot of opportunities to build up service gaps that are hard to recover from.

[MTA Researcher]

1 hour ago, ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ said:

After so many bad experiences, I've become increasingly a supporter of bifurcating the  such that one  runs from Whitehall St South Ferry - Forest Hills, and the other  runs from Canal St (on Nassau Line) to Bay Ridge 95 St. I think part of the reason  has spotty headways is because there are too many merges and Chokepoints. This about it:

At last we get a WallyHorse supporter, yay! 

1 hour ago, ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ said:

Merging from 60th St tunnel onto QBLVD with . 60th St tunnel has 3 services, and the whole system of merging onto QBLVD with the  is pretty complex and notorious for causing backups, especially cause in normal times, the  itself also has to deal with the , and the  has to deal with the .

Which option is best?

option 1:

 via 53rd St,  via 63rd

option 2:

Assuming  OR  only exist to make room for ;

  via 53rd,  via 63rd - 6 Av Exp

Someone in this forum told me something interesting about option 2; they said that in such proposal  alone coming from CPW into 6 Av would merge with  alone coming from 63rd St. Meanwhile  are now free of lag, something that wouldn’t be possible with option 1. I assume that hypothesis in scenario around 5 Av 53 st  delay behind  with the wait of  crossing into Rockefeller Ctr.

 

I mean…. Is this really true? Am I missing something?

1 hour ago, ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ said:

 terminating at Whitehall St. There have been multiples times I've been in a northbound  waiting for the  to leave (I don't understand why it can't just enter the station cause  only uses middle track to terminate), but can make the  wait like 5 minutes.

 must get the boot, as an Astorian I only take  express, when MTA crew say  leaves first; I say ‘I want  express’ only.

Edited December 14, 2023 by MTA Researcher

[Kamen Rider]

22 hours ago, ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ said:

I think part of the reason  has spotty headways is because there are too many merges and Chokepoints.

You want to know what REALLY kills the line's OTP and headways?

 

It's not the merging. It's not the length. It's not how many stops it makes...

 

It's the people. The ones who stand there with their feet in the doors trying to read the FINDS. The ones who stop me to ask redundant questions. the ones who come running down the stairs, shove themselves into the closing doors, hold them open for their family/ slash buddies, pile into the train... and then suddenly burst out of the train because they realized this WASN'T the train they wanted.

 

Or, to put it this way... Guess which line I worked today and Yesterday...

 

The problem with Continental as a terminal is that often times we have to be called down to the platform to pick up our train.

 

In the last few times I've had the R I've kept to time nearly every time, only for an issue that can not be solved by making changes to the line to show up, delaying me. 

Man gets sick.

Someone cuts the power.

someone forgot the rules about "Holding Lights as Starting Lights". 

 

 

[JustTheSIR]

On 12/13/2023 at 9:34 PM, ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ said:

After so many bad experiences, I've become increasingly a supporter of bifurcating the  such that one  runs from Whitehall St South Ferry - Forest Hills, and the other  runs from Canal St (on Nassau Line) to Bay Ridge 95 St. I think part of the reason  has spotty headways is because there are too many merges and Chokepoints. This about it:

1. Forest Hills is not a great Terminal Station. Especially before when it was shared with  things could get backed up

2. Merging from 60th St tunnel onto QBLVD with . 60th St tunnel has 3 services, and the whole system of merging onto QBLVD with the  is pretty complex and notorious for causing backups, especially cause in normal times, the  itself also has to deal with the , and the  has to deal with the .

3.  train crossover at 34th St. Can easily force an  train to wait a couple extra minutes.

4.  terminating at Whitehall St. There have been multiples times I've been in a northbound  waiting for the  to leave (I don't understand why it can't just enter the station cause  only uses middle track to terminate), but can make the  wait like 5 minutes.

5. DeKalb Junction. Even though in normal service the  is technically grade-separated from everything else, it's still a slow junction and often times  will run local which adds another merge point

All this adds up to quite a lot of opportunities to build up service gaps that are hard to recover from.

So, just bring back the  and ?

[Wallyhorse]

4 hours ago, JustTheSIR said:

So, just bring back the  and ?

Essentially, that is what I would be doing with what used to be the (and later Whitehall ) becoming the running from Whitehall to 71st/Continental (some trains during peak hours ending and beginning on the tunnel level of Canal Street). 

The  stations at Canal and Bowery have their former northbound sides re-activated with Canal Street turned back into the terminal station it once was with the  becoming brown and running from 95th-Bay Ridge to Canal on the , designed where transfer point between the and this  is Canal street southbound (as excluding a few rush hour and that end and begin at Broad Street during peak hours, this version of the  /  would terminate at Chambers) with northbound the transfer point between this  and the  would be Chambers, in both cases cross-platform transfers.  This  would as noted before be based out of East New York with scheduled in-service yard runs on this  that end and begin at Broadway Junction.  Nights and weekends, this  is extended to Metropolitan Avenue and absorbs the current late night and weekend  shuttles. 

There is a new "Yellow " as part of this that would run from 9th Avenue on the (Max 6 TPH) via Montague to Astoria to accommodate those looking for lower Manhattan on the current route, with for those coming from Bay Ridge who use the current in such being able to do a same-platform transfer anywhere between 36th and Court on the current for this. 

[Nova Fly Guy]

On 12/14/2023 at 8:45 PM, Kamen Rider said:

You want to know what REALLY kills the line's OTP and headways?

 

It's not the merging. It's not the length. It's not how many stops it makes...

 

It's the people. The ones who stand there with their feet in the doors trying to read the FINDS. The ones who stop me to ask redundant questions. the ones who come running down the stairs, shove themselves into the closing doors, hold them open for their family/ slash buddies, pile into the train... and then suddenly burst out of the train because they realized this WASN'T the train they wanted.

 

Or, to put it this way... Guess which line I worked today and Yesterday...

 

The problem with Continental as a terminal is that often times we have to be called down to the platform to pick up our train.

 

In the last few times I've had the R I've kept to time nearly every time, only for an issue that can not be solved by making changes to the line to show up, delaying me. 

Man gets sick.

Someone cuts the power.

someone forgot the rules about "Holding Lights as Starting Lights". 

 

 

As a 4th generation worker it’s never “people” problem let’s not forget without riders we have no job. The  is a poorly managed line horrible headway and timers. My grandfather always taught me we server the people not the other way around. Between RTO & Surface y’all have the worst attitude but make the most money.

In 25yrs my grandfather had only 2 major incidents at FP because he never personalized the job. I will never be onboard with blaming the public for the shitty mismanagement of the system that is all 2 Broadway & Albany fault.

 

Edited December 18, 2023 by Nova Fly Guy

[MTA Researcher]

27 minutes ago, Nova Fly Guy said:

As a 4th generation worker it’s never “people” problem let’s not forget without riders we have no job. The  is a poorly managed line horrible headway and timers. My grandfather always taught me we server the people not the other way around. Between RTO & Surface y’all have the worst attitude but make the most money.

In 25yrs my grandfather had only 2 major incidents at FP because he never personalized the job. I will never be onboard with blaming the public for the shitty mismanagement of the system that is all 2 Broadway & Albany fault.

Well said!
 

It upsets me that the crew behave like dictators. For crying out loud no wonder people prefer to drive, myself included… unfortunately I’m legally blind so I must rely on trains, but I promise the day my vision comes back to me; I’m no longer riding trains for any reason. Treat your customers with love and respect and they will return.

[LGA Link N Train]

With consideration as to what @ABCDEFGJLMNQRSSSWZ, @Kamen Rider and @Nova Fly Guy have all said, wouldn’t it be a combination of all factors that explain why the  is so problematic? 
 

At the very least it isn’t the LEAST reliable subway line by any margin, not anymore that is. 

[Kamen Rider]

17 hours ago, Nova Fly Guy said:

As a 4th generation worker it’s never “people” problem let’s not forget without riders we have no job. The  is a poorly managed line horrible headway and timers. My grandfather always taught me we server the people not the other way around. Between RTO & Surface y’all have the worst attitude but make the most money.

In 25yrs my grandfather had only 2 major incidents at FP because he never personalized the job. I will never be onboard with blaming the public for the shitty mismanagement of the system that is all 2 Broadway & Albany fault.

 

Your grandfather also probably never had passengers demand he drag a sick and possibly dying man off his bus…

meanwhile two weeks ago that is exactly what I had. Man is lying face down on the ground having muscle spasms annd bleeding and the “only care about myself” types demand I move him.

people and thier selfish behavior is a core problem, that can on it should be be ignored for the sake of pushing the usual “the bosses suck” narrative.

[Kamen Rider]

17 hours ago, MTA Researcher said:

Well said!
 

It upsets me that the crew behave like dictators. For crying out loud no wonder people prefer to drive, myself included… unfortunately I’m legally blind so I must rely on trains, but I promise the day my vision comes back to me; I’m no longer riding trains for any reason. Treat your customers with love and respect and they will return.

Maybe if the customers returned that respect once in a while instead of treating us like we’re part of the furniture…

hell, people like you and Wally do it in places like this very thread by coming up with ideas that do not consider us and our needs and comforts.

 

let me give you an example of what I’m talking about… the wonderful world of the Canarsie Line platform at Union Square. 
 

middle of the PM rush hour, when L trains run every 4 minutes or less, you get people verbally abusing me for simply doing my job. Because they come bouncing down the stairs as I am doing my platform sweep before returning control to the TO; put thier hands on the train doors and demand I let them on. When I tell them no. They start cursing me out, even after I point out my follower is literally right outside the station.

[NBTA]

1 hour ago, Kamen Rider said:

Maybe if the customers returned that respect once in a while instead of treating us like we’re part of the furniture…

hell, people like you and Wally do it in places like this very thread by coming up with ideas that do not consider us and our needs and comforts.

 

let me give you an example of what I’m talking about… the wonderful world of the Canarsie Line platform at Union Square. 
 

middle of the PM rush hour, when L trains run every 4 minutes or less, you get people verbally abusing me for simply doing my job. Because they come bouncing down the stairs as I am doing my platform sweep before returning control to the TO; put thier hands on the train doors and demand I let them on. When I tell them no. They start cursing me out, even after I point out my follower is literally right outside the station.

This is why I don’t dabble into things like this. As someone who works in the company, I’ve grown to understand the issues that you have. But hey, the rider and customer is always right, am I right?

[MTA Researcher]

1 hour ago, NBTA said:

This is why I don’t dabble into things like this. As someone who works in the company, I’ve grown to understand the issues that you have. But hey, the rider and customer is always right, am I right?

Yes, you’re right. Like Sanji’s cook assistant says “The Customer Is Always King”

 

- from One Piece

[Kamen Rider]

On 12/19/2023 at 2:06 PM, MTA Researcher said:

Yes, you’re right. Like Sanji’s cook assistant says “The Customer Is Always King”

 

- from One Piece

until the customers turn into an angry mob because my train was rerouted at the last second, leaving me, without hyperbole, fearing for my safety. 

Working an R train job a year ago. weekend GO had the train express from Forest Hills to the Plaza. We get to 36th and the tower calls, saying that due to an issue, we were going via 63rd street. I make the annoucments.

We arrive at Queensbridge and about 20 people surround me, yelling and screaming. calling me all sorts of heinous things, to the point the cops who happened to be standing there got involved.

 

"WHY DIDN'T YOU TELL US THIS AT ROOSVELT YOU (bleeping) (insert homophobic slur)?!?"

 and they wouldn't accept the fact I didn't know this in advance and more so acted as if I had any say in the matter. 

They are not always right and they are anything but the kings... 

[Wallyhorse]

On 12/19/2023 at 10:46 AM, Kamen Rider said:

Your grandfather also probably never had passengers demand he drag a sick and possibly dying man off his bus…

meanwhile two weeks ago that is exactly what I had. Man is lying face down on the ground having muscle spasms annd bleeding and the “only care about myself” types demand I move him.

people and thier selfish behavior is a core problem, that can on it should be be ignored for the sake of pushing the usual “the bosses suck” narrative.

My god, I may not be the most patient person out there, but if someone is sick like that and clearly needs medical attention, that  is the priority no matter how many people get upset about that. Those passengers need to realize taking care of the sick passenger comes first (though I'm sure some were that way because they were on their way to work and have employers who are super impatient and refuse to understand things like sick passengers happen).

[Wallyhorse]

3 hours ago, Kamen Rider said:

until the customers turn into an angry mob because my train was rerouted at the last second, leaving me, without hyperbole, fearing for my safety. 

Working an R train job a year ago. weekend GO had the train express from Forest Hills to the Plaza. We get to 36th and the tower calls, saying that due to an issue, we were going via 63rd street. I make the annoucments.

We arrive at Queensbridge and about 20 people surround me, yelling and screaming. calling me all sorts of heinous things, to the point the cops who happened to be standing there got involved.

 

"WHY DIDN'T YOU TELL US THIS AT ROOSVELT YOU (bleeping) (insert homophobic slur)?!?"

 and they wouldn't accept the fact I didn't know this in advance and more so acted as if I had any say in the matter. 

They are not always right and they are anything but the kings... 

Some people are just. plain, idiots.  Sure, they might have been PO'ed about it but unless they specifically needed Queens Plaza they could have stayed on via 63rd to Manhattan and transferred where possible to the line they needed to be on or simply walked a few blocks.

That was clearly an unavoidable situation.  Obviously, there was a train or other incident at Queens Plaza and that forced the change.  

Obviously someone didn't do their job or simply didn't know you would have to go to 63rd until AFTER you left Roosevelt and it was a last-minute situation and that's why you didn't know sooner.  

[MTA Researcher]

4 hours ago, Kamen Rider said:

until the customers turn into an angry mob because my train was rerouted at the last second, leaving me, without hyperbole, fearing for my safety. 

Working an R train job a year ago. weekend GO had the train express from Forest Hills to the Plaza. We get to 36th and the tower calls, saying that due to an issue, we were going via 63rd street. I make the annoucments.

We arrive at Queensbridge and about 20 people surround me, yelling and screaming. calling me all sorts of heinous things, to the point the cops who happened to be standing there got involved.

 

"WHY DIDN'T YOU TELL US THIS AT ROOSVELT YOU (bleeping) (insert homophobic slur)?!?"

 and they wouldn't accept the fact I didn't know this in advance and more so acted as if I had any say in the matter. 

They are not always right and they are anything but the kings... 

Thank you for sharing. After hearing these stories it has come to mind that the workers really only follow orders. You’re not to blame for these shortcomings… I sympathize with you.

 

There’s gotta be a way to hit middle ground…

 

Like WallyHorse said, some things just can’t be helped, and yet they treat you like that? That’s not right.

[Vulturious]

Not a proposal, but rather my own interpretation of what the system would've looked like had the IND Crosstown went with it's original proposal of being a loop.

The original proposal came about in 1925, but obviously plans had changed over time. Andrew Lynch (Vanshnookenragen) made a blog and a portion dedicated to this, but there were no track maps of what it would've looked like. To be fair, it wasn't easy trying to make a map of this. It was mentioned that 53 St would've been a 4 track tunnel.

Unfortunately, as I was making and revising this, I ended up across on a sentence that mentions when Fulton St was added since it wasn't built yet that Crosstown entering Manhattan on both sides wouldn't have been possible due to having to sacrifice space for the IND Fulton St line. I'd like to think it was possible, but most likely didn't want to deal with the hassle of it. If this were the case, Jay St station would've most likely had a similar layout like Hoyt-Schermerhorn Sts station.

With Fulton changing everything, there were a couple of sentences in his blog that was odd, "The 53rd St Tunnel was reduced from 4-tracks to 2-tracks, eliminating the ability for the Crosstown Line to directly reach Manhattan. Service on both the South Brooklyn (today, the F/G) and Queens Blvd Lines would be limited so that only the express tracks being able to cross into Manhattan." The reason I found it odd, especially the second sentence was it felt like 53 St wasn't just going to have their own separate tunnels for different branches, but a direct connection from 53 St to QBL Local.

In this scenario, the 60 St tunnel probably wouldn't have had a connection to QBL local built through the 11 St cut since in this scenario 53 St already has one. Although, this is just hypothetical and maybe Vanshnook can come in to see whether most of this is true or not. 

Again, this is not a proposal, merely an interpretation of what the system would've looked like had the IND stuck with their original proposal for Crosstown.

[zacster]

The true original crosstown plan was to have the 60th St subway tracks at QB Plaza cross under the entire structure and continue down Jackson Ave. and maybe connect with the Franklin Shuttle.  There is a portion of this that was actually built and it is visible under the QB Plaza structure and it dead ends as it faces Jackson.  These trackways were eventually used to build the tail track that extends next to the Flushing line all the way up to 33rd.  The tail tracks are not the original intent and you can see they were built on top of the trackways and curve off.

Queensboro Plaza BMT Crosstown trackways by zacfi2000, on Flickr

 

[MTA Researcher]

6 hours ago, Vulturious said:

Not a proposal, but rather my own interpretation of what the system would've looked like had the IND Crosstown went with it's original proposal of being a loop.

The original proposal came about in 1925, but obviously plans had changed over time. Andrew Lynch (Vanshnookenragen) made a blog and a portion dedicated to this, but there were no track maps of what it would've looked like. To be fair, it wasn't easy trying to make a map of this. It was mentioned that 53 St would've been a 4 track tunnel.

Unfortunately, as I was making and revising this, I ended up across on a sentence that mentions when Fulton St was added since it wasn't built yet that Crosstown entering Manhattan on both sides wouldn't have been possible due to having to sacrifice space for the IND Fulton St line. I'd like to think it was possible, but most likely didn't want to deal with the hassle of it. If this were the case, Jay St station would've most likely had a similar layout like Hoyt-Schermerhorn Sts station.

With Fulton changing everything, there were a couple of sentences in his blog that was odd, "The 53rd St Tunnel was reduced from 4-tracks to 2-tracks, eliminating the ability for the Crosstown Line to directly reach Manhattan. Service on both the South Brooklyn (today, the F/G) and Queens Blvd Lines would be limited so that only the express tracks being able to cross into Manhattan." The reason I found it odd, especially the second sentence was it felt like 53 St wasn't just going to have their own separate tunnels for different branches, but a direct connection from 53 St to QBL Local.

In this scenario, the 60 St tunnel probably wouldn't have had a connection to QBL local built through the 11 St cut since in this scenario 53 St already has one. Although, this is just hypothetical and maybe Vanshnook can come in to see whether most of this is true or not. 

Again, this is not a proposal, merely an interpretation of what the system would've looked like had the IND stuck with their original proposal for Crosstown.

What a coincidence! While I was contemplating on how to improve public transportation in Queens and help  line out; I was thinking of extending  line past Astoria-Ditmars and go beyond LaGuardia . I was not sure if  should both go there and segregate QBL-60 St Connection, but this comment gave me an experimental idea. Check it out!

https://metrodreamin.com/view/QWp5WDJMaE9oYldYaHhNbGV0Vzh4c3pzWDBkMnww

 

Right here the (I) via 2 Av Lcl starts from Citi Field, goes via Astoria local while  coming from Flushing -Kissena goes Astoria peak direction express. Both pass by LaGuardia, and as they go through Queensboro Plaza; the (I) goes through that track of what could have been, entering Manhattan into the proposed 55 St Station meeting up with the  and from there (I) would go local while  goes via 2 Av Express. 
 

Just brainstorming potential solutions.

3 hours ago, zacster said:

The true original crosstown plan was to have the 60th St subway tracks at QB Plaza cross under the entire structure and continue down Jackson Ave. and maybe connect with the Franklin Shuttle.  There is a portion of this that was actually built and it is visible under the QB Plaza structure and it dead ends as it faces Jackson.  These trackways were eventually used to build the tail track that extends next to the Flushing line all the way up to 33rd.  The tail tracks are not the original intent and you can see they were built on top of the trackways and curve off.

This is just a thought:

If modified properly; maybe the QB Plaza lower level could be for Astoria Line Trains and upper level for Flushing Line Trains?

https://ibb.co/8jX1thg